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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The main threat of the Tau to the Imperium is not so much its military threat, since the Tau are a small empire still on the grand scheme of things. It is the ideological threat, because they offer an alternative path to the Imperium for human survival.

The humans on Taros if anything fought harder than the Tau to resist the Imperium's reconquest because the humans had enjoyed an improved quality of life and some local autonomy in the 40 or so years since the Tau took Taros.

Now of course the Imperium would view the idea of humans treating aliens as equals, let alone being subordinate to them, repugnant but that's the whole point: the humans under the Tau pose the threat of seductive new ideas to the downtrodden masses of the Imperium. The Imperium fears the spread of these ideas more than the Tau's actual physical conquests.

Exactly - the Tau are proof that the Imperium is not the only way that humanity can survive - and therefore why they are such a threat.

It is the psychic potential of humans that is the attraction/danger when it comes to Chaos. Tau don't have that issue.

 harlokin wrote:
It is the psychic potential of humans that is the attraction/danger when it comes to Chaos. Tau don't have that issue.

IIRC the psychic issue for humans with the Tau is currently somewhat handwaved with intervention from other client species, chemicals in the water providing psychic-castration of the humans, etc.

A.T. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Imperium will tell you that they have no choice

They would say it was your duty, or their demand, or nothing at all and just push you in. But they would do it to your face by preference.

I mean, *is* it really to your face? "Doing it for duty" is still a lie, because that duty isn't required for the survival of humanity.

It's one of those things they haven't yet ruined about the Tau by giving too much background information in stories, that they are likely just as much slaves to the Ethereals as their client races, and potentially working against their own long-term interests depending on the ultimate true goal of the Greater Good.

Again, it's also just as likely that the T'au genuinely *are* mostly benevolent, and there isn't any mind control, or drugs in the water, or ulterior motive beyond a Greater Good, and that life as part of their empire is the "good" ending.

harlokin wrote:It is the psychic potential of humans that is the attraction/danger when it comes to Chaos. Tau don't have that issue.

I don't recall the Interex having such issues.

A.T. wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
It is the psychic potential of humans that is the attraction/danger when it comes to Chaos. Tau don't have that issue.

IIRC the psychic issue for humans with the Tau is currently somewhat handwaved with intervention from other client species, chemicals in the water providing psychic-castration of the humans, etc.

Source on that last one?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

harlokin wrote:It is the psychic potential of humans that is the attraction/danger when it comes to Chaos. Tau don't have that issue.

I don't recall the Interex having such issues.

Oh yes, the Interex; who could forget such an 'amazingly fleshed-out civilization' only invented as an artless contrast of the Imperium, and so significant that it was wiped out by a few thousand Astartes.

*The 63rd Expeditionary Fleet which contained the Sons of Horus (including Horus), Mechanicum and Titans of the Legio Mortis, and Imperial Army Regiments.

harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

harlokin wrote:It is the psychic potential of humans that is the attraction/danger when it comes to Chaos. Tau don't have that issue.

I don't recall the Interex having such issues.

Oh yes, the Interex; who could forget such an 'amazingly fleshed-out civilization' only invented as an artless contrast of the Imperium, and so significant that it was wiped out by a few thousand Astartes.

And who were surviving in the galaxy without all the awfulness the Imperium displayed - the fact it took the 63rd Expeditionary Fleet to finally wipe them out says more about their capabilities than it belittles their accomplishments.

Also, "artless contrast of the Imperium" is exactly what they were - demonstration that the Imperium absolutely did not have to do what they did, and doubly tragic that they were wiped out by the evidently more inhumane and villainous of the two.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

And who were surviving in the galaxy without all the awfulness the Imperium displayed - the fact it took the 63rd Expeditionary Fleet to finally wipe them out says more about their capabilities than it belittles their accomplishments.

How long they might have survived, and whether it was even tenable in the long-term is never touched upon. Never mind the fact that they were merely surviving, while the Imperium was thriving.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Also, "artless contrast of the Imperium" is exactly what they were - demonstration that the Imperium absolutely did not have to do what they did, and doubly tragic that they were wiped out by the evidently more inhumane and villainous of the two.

Nah, good riddance to a unimaginative, happy-clappy, shower of gak.

 harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

And who were surviving in the galaxy without all the awfulness the Imperium displayed - the fact it took the 63rd Expeditionary Fleet to finally wipe them out says more about their capabilities than it belittles their accomplishments.

How long they might have survived, and whether it was even tenable in the long-term is never touched upon. Never mind the fact that they were merely surviving, while the Imperium was thriving.

They survived well enough beyond the Long Night, they developed tech that could quite easily penetrate power armour, had studied Chaos to the point that they were equipped to reject it, and were evidently more capable of dealing with certain xenos threats like the Megarachnid, considering that they were capable of essentially marooning them all onto one planet. They clearly showed more common sense than the Imperium too (not a high bar to pass), given how they didn't decide to go picking a fight with the Megarachnid, and left them on that world as a quarantine.

No, I think they were pretty clearly shown as a capable long-term civilisation, and thriving. Not to the same extent as the Imperium, but considering the moral cost of the Imperium's "progress", I think that the Interex have the high ground here.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Also, "artless contrast of the Imperium" is exactly what they were - demonstration that the Imperium absolutely did not have to do what they did, and doubly tragic that they were wiped out by the evidently more inhumane and villainous of the two.

Nah, good riddance to a unimaginative, happy-clappy, shower of gak.

A canon unimaginative shower of gak!

All I'm saying is that the Imperium is not justified, has never been justified, and all of their excuses for why they do what they do are utterly meaningless. The Interex are proof of that, and that's why they needed to exist: because if they didn't, we *could* end up with people claiming "but the Imperium is the only way that humanity could survive among the stars". No, the Interex are proof that humanity could have survived - if the Imperium didn't exist.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

All I'm saying is that the Imperium is not justified, has never been justified......

I get that, I just prefer the view that the Imperium was justified at some point, but that point has long since passed.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, it's also just as likely that the T'au genuinely *are* mostly benevolent, and there isn't any mind control, or drugs in the water, or ulterior motive beyond a Greater Good, and that life as part of their empire is the "good" ending.

A mounting pile of circumstancial evidence, as it should be. Any author that decides to state outright one way or the other isn't doing the faction justice.
A few fun ones include "after the Ethereal caste provided the Vespid leaders with custom-made communication headsets, they became suddenly and completely compliant", and "the Poctroon are the first sentient race to join the empire, though within a few generations the unfortunate aliens have fallen to a terrible plague. Fortuitously, the Tau are immune to this virulent phage, and inherit the aliens' now abandoned world..."

A.T. wrote:Source on that last one?

Not to hand i'm afraid. Too many paper books with no built in search function :(
I think GW are rather deliberately skirting around this particular issue as uncontrolled gue'la psykers should be a one way ticket to a massive daemonic incursion, enslaver plague, or just your mundane alpha-plus level 'Alma Wade' style apocalypse.

Shas'O Status'Qu'O: "Why is the planet suddenly on fire?"
(nearby fire warriors' head slowly spins 180 to face him): "bEcAUsE It bUUUUuurns..." (tau get telekinetically yeeted into the sun)

I would say the Unification Wars and the Solar Reclamation are probably where the justification starts and ends. There seemed to be a lot more killing of genuine threats and merging of human peoples than after that.
Yeah the Emperor was bad but compared to people like Narthan Dume and the Priest-King of Maulland Sen were absolutely worse.

 harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

All I'm saying is that the Imperium is not justified, has never been justified......

I get that, I just prefer the view that the Imperium was justified at some point, but that point has long since passed.

Sorry, but no. The Emperor was always wrong and the Imperium is founded on that.

The Imperium didn't fall from some grand dreams of utopia, it was what it became from the very start. The very foundation of the Imperium is mass murder and colonialism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:

I think GW are rather deliberately skirting around this particular issue as uncontrolled gue'la psykers should be a one way ticket to a massive daemonic incursion, enslaver plague, or just your mundane alpha-plus level 'Alma Wade' style apocalypse.

Or perhaps it is the environment of the Imperium that makes psykers so dangerous. Perhaps the beings of the warp, especially those with malevolent intent, are more drawn to psychic minds which are beacons of negative emotion.

harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

All I'm saying is that the Imperium is not justified, has never been justified......

I get that, I just prefer the view that the Imperium was justified at some point, but that point has long since passed.

Yeah, nah. I would hate that the Imperium was ever justified in what it did, because what it did was awful. It should never have been seen as justifiable, and I'm glad that non-Imperium humans existed in the setting to prove that it wasn't necessary to do what the Imperium did.

A.T. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, it's also just as likely that the T'au genuinely *are* mostly benevolent, and there isn't any mind control, or drugs in the water, or ulterior motive beyond a Greater Good, and that life as part of their empire is the "good" ending.

A mounting pile of circumstancial evidence, as it should be. Any author that decides to state outright one way or the other isn't doing the faction justice.
A few fun ones include "after the Ethereal caste provided the Vespid leaders with custom-made communication headsets, they became suddenly and completely compliant", and "the Poctroon are the first sentient race to join the empire, though within a few generations the unfortunate aliens have fallen to a terrible plague. Fortuitously, the Tau are immune to this virulent phage, and inherit the aliens' now abandoned world..."

For the Vespid, how much of that is actual mind control, or just finally being able to communicate effectively?
For the Poctroon, how much of that is simply just their biology being different, and being a tragic accident?

For every conspiracy that the Tau are evil mind controllers and deliberately subversive, there's a rational explanation and wholesome intent. My point still stands - it's down to interpretation and personal opinion as to what the Tau truly are, but the point stands that we have no *solid* proof that the Tau have any ill-intent towards their Gue'vesa.

We cannot say the same for the Imperium, who we outright know are in the wrong.

Source on that last one?

Not to hand i'm afraid. Too many paper books with no built in search function :(

Aight - so let's just not make that claim again until we have proof, yes?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Source on that last one?

Not to hand i'm afraid. Too many paper books with no built in search function :(

Aight - so let's just not make that claim again until we have proof, yes?

https://youtu.be/BYAjyJvPFfI

Technically not the Canon ending to the game, but this also implies forced sterilization.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Source on that last one?

Not to hand i'm afraid. Too many paper books with no built in search function :(

Aight - so let's just not make that claim again until we have proof, yes?

https://youtu.be/BYAjyJvPFfI

Technically not the Canon ending to the game, but this also implies forced sterilization.

Even if that were the case, it is a less harsh punishment than what the imperium would impose.

Also, the Imperium has mass-sterilisation programs.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Source on that last one?

Not to hand i'm afraid. Too many paper books with no built in search function :(

Aight - so let's just not make that claim again until we have proof, yes?

https://youtu.be/BYAjyJvPFfI

Technically not the Canon ending to the game, but this also implies forced sterilization.

So, a non-canon ending, in a video game series that I thought we were saying wasn't exactly "canonical" in the first place? And it's an implication, not an outright statement?

You can see why I'm skeptical of this as anything concrete, yes?

harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, nah. I would hate that the Imperium was ever justified in what it did, because what it did was awful. It should never have been seen as justifiable, and I'm glad that non-Imperium humans existed in the setting to prove that it wasn't necessary to do what the Imperium did.

Yeah, nah.

Very insightful, good contribution.

It was the same as yours, pal, in response to what was my expression of personal preference. You can like it, or go feth yourself.

Did you stop reading after my first sentence, or not? Because I definitely put more insight and actual *response* into my reply. Yours was... well, completely superfluous, beyond expressing you disagreed, which was already evident. Clearly, they are not the same, but I'm glad that my response affected you so much that you felt the need to reaffirm your disagreement in two words.

As I said - you really demonstrated keen insight and contribution in your two word response, have a gold star.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For every conspiracy that the Tau are evil mind controllers and deliberately subversive, there's a rational explanation and wholesome intent.

That is... pretty much excactly what I said, so yes?
"A mounting pile of circumstancial evidence, as it should be. Any author that decides to state outright one way or the other isn't doing the faction justice."

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Aight - so let's just not make that claim again until we have proof, yes?

I recalled it from an old Deathwatch game. After further investigation it appears to have been an all-purpose sterilization. Deathwatch Core Rulebook page 352
"Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instill an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the somewhat reluctant gue’la minds. Populations are regularly sterilized to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicize the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue’la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all."

and from the same source and page:
"...Gue’Retha is a place which the Tau decline to name, but which human malcontents call the Lacuna. This underground research facility, it is rumored, is where the Tau conduct psychological experiments on the gue’la prisoners. The results supposedly help the Tau refine their methods of social manipulation, but no one can be sure since any heard to utter such thought vanish, quite possibly into Lacuna itself"


And from the supporting xenos sourcebook, Mark of the Xenos page 4:
I am recently returned from a contact negotiation with the Tau, and I am driven to commit my immediate thoughts to record. While maintaining the propriety that my station demands, I grow increasingly frustrated by the manner in which the Tau comport themselves. Indeed, I might go so far as to describe them as infuriating! Their Water Caste envoys maintain a mask of politeness and openness, yet they talk around every issue raised. I have come to understand that the Tau regard themselves as occupying some sort of moral high ground in everything they do. They condemn our actions, claiming our methods are excessive or unreasonable, yet have a justification for every one of their own, often equally extreme, deeds. When they hear that Imperial forces have decimated a rebellious world, they call us callous and state that such things could never occur under their beneficent rule. Yet, when they invade a world that refuses to submit to joining their empire, they at first deny all involvement, and then eventually cite the necessity of their vile collectivist creed. They preach equality and the value of every sentient being, yet they allow their auxiliary subjects to make sacrifices they rarely ask of their own kin.

I submit this observation to you in the hope that it may further your own studies into this particular xenos species. While my recent mission was undoubtedly trying, I have come away from it with a deeper understanding of the Tau, which I believe can serve us all. They do not seek to expand their empire for mere territorial or material gain, for their home region is bountiful in natural resources of every type. They expand because they must, just as we fight because we must. They believe it is their destiny to unite every sentient being in the galaxy under their rule. This, I believe shall be their undoing. By the time they discover the truth of the horrors that lurk between the stars, they will have fatally overstretched themselves, and then we can strike them down once and for all.


I'm sure there is a rational explanation and wholesome intent in there somewhere, but i'm going to need page numbers and quotes... :p

A.T. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For every conspiracy that the Tau are evil mind controllers and deliberately subversive, there's a rational explanation and wholesome intent.

That is... pretty much excactly what I said, so yes?
"A mounting pile of circumstancial evidence, as it should be. Any author that decides to state outright one way or the other isn't doing the faction justice."

And I was just reaffirming that we can't outright make a claim either way. You claimed that the Tau were "The Tau objective with regards to the Imperium, and everyone else, is a client species of slaves to the Greater Good.

Military action will be used where advantageous to the Greater Good. Diplomatic action will be used where advantageous to the Greater Good. The size of the human population of the galaxy will be adjusted to best fit the needs of the Greater Good."

I stated how this was only one interpretation of what they were, and how the Imperium are explicitly shown as awful, unlike the Tau, who are obfuscated somewhat.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Aight - so let's just not make that claim again until we have proof, yes?

I recalled it from an old Deathwatch game. After further investigation it appears to have been an all-purpose sterilization. Deathwatch Core Rulebook page 352...

Great, we're getting somewhere! Is this a localised case (ie, an outlier within the Empire), or is this considered as regular practice within the Empire? I don't have the book on me, could you provide the information - because reading the extracts you provided, it seemed like this may have been an outlying example, and not common practice.

Second, if I'm not mistaken, aren't those books not considered direct GW canon? I mean, they're not in publication any more, and I do seem to remember GW saying that they were ultimately third party products?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Source on that last one?

Not to hand i'm afraid. Too many paper books with no built in search function :(

Aight - so let's just not make that claim again until we have proof, yes?

https://youtu.be/BYAjyJvPFfI

Technically not the Canon ending to the game, but this also implies forced sterilization.

So, a non-canon ending, in a video game series that I thought we were saying wasn't exactly "canonical" in the first place? And it's an implication, not an outright statement?

You can see why I'm skeptical of this as anything concrete, yes?

Sorry, I seem to have missed the part where the forum agreed to only count written works as Canon.

Furthermore, while yes, it is a "non-canon" ending, it is the ending that occurs when playing the Tau, this it would at least count as what would have happened if the Tau won.

"You can see why I'm skeptical of this as anything concrete, yes?"

And I see that as the intent of how the Tau are written. Nothing is directly stated, only implied. See the video I linked and the other quotes given.

Also, didn't the Farsight book have Tau Ethereals experimenting with Genestealers or was that another story?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Aw, you don't like when people oppose the idea that bad stuff needs to happen to have good things, or that the ends justify the means?

Shame, I suppose, but it says more about you than me.

I don't like the theme of victory without sacrifice, in this setting. I also don't like that expressing that preference results in amateur psychoanalysis of real-life motivations.

@A.T.

So, both from Imperial viewpoints and based on rumours with no concrete evidence, rumours shared with the imperium by those with an axe to grind and an incentive to paint the Tau in the worst possible light.

Arcanis161 wrote:Sorry, I seem to have missed the part where the forum agreed to only count written works as Canon.

I make reference to a comment made (perhaps in another thread) which indicated that video games had a degree of obfuscation to them, and that as they weren't entirely GW property, weren't exactly the same relevance.

I'm not saying it's not canon, but that if it's not something being widely supported by GW's own material, its relevance should be questioned.

"You can see why I'm skeptical of this as anything concrete, yes?"

And I see that as the intent of how the Tau are written. Nothing is directly stated, only implied. See the video I linked and the other quotes given.

Similarly, I've seen other Tau material which has been made with the intent of showing how not everything in the galaxy has to be awful, and how there can be altruistic and good-hearted factions out there.

Again, all implication, and all down to personal interpretation, which I like, but that's why I'm commenting, I suppose - to at least mention how the Tau might not be as malevolent as some users have implied.

Also, didn't the Farsight book have Tau Ethereals experimenting with Genestealers or was that another story?

If so, it's the first I've heard of it, so I'd like to see more on it!

harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Aw, you don't like when people oppose the idea that bad stuff needs to happen to have good things, or that the ends justify the means?

Shame, I suppose, but it says more about you than me.

I don't like the theme of victory without sacrifice, in this setting. I also don't like that expressing that preference results in amateur psychoanalysis of real-life motivations.

And I don't like the theme of "the ends justify the means" in any setting. I also don't like that expressing that preference results in being labelled a moraliser.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So, both from Imperial viewpoints and based on rumours with no concrete evidence, coming from those with an axe to grind and an incentive to paint the Tau in the worst possible light.

I don't really have an axe to grind? I just presented what I knew.

I do find it odd that evidence I considered to be hinting at darker motives is being dismissed as they're not explicitly stating that there are darker motives. I thought it was obvious that the whole point was that they were hints to allow interpretation from the players as to whether or not the Tau were actually evil.

But apparently, the response I see is that if there's no explicit evidence, then it doesn't exist. No room for nuance and other interpretations eh?

This feels like a fight to just have a fight.

EDIT:

Again, all implication, and all down to personal interpretation, which I like, but that's why I'm commenting, I suppose - to at least mention how the Tau might not be as malevolent as some users have implied.

I stand corrected. That's fair.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So, both from Imperial viewpoints and based on rumours with no concrete evidence, coming from those with an axe to grind and an incentive to paint the Tau in the worst possible light.

I don't really have an axe to grind? I just presented what I knew.

Oh, I don't literally mean the people sharing it in this thread. I mean the people that gave that information to the Imperium in universe. They mention they got it from malcontents.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
@A.T.

So, both from Imperial viewpoints and based on rumours with no concrete evidence, coming from those with an axe to grind and an incentive to paint the Tau in the worst possible light.

I really thing that the Tau are in a much more progressive phase of development than the regressive IOM so their actions are somewhat more tolerable (from a modern POV)... but it is also true that the more they engage in the never ending war of the 40K galaxy (whose main architech is without doubt the Big E) the more "grimdark" the T´au empire is going to turn.

Its hard to constantly engage with madmen without lossing some level of sanity.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Great, we're getting somewhere! Is this a localised case (ie, an outlier within the Empire), or is this considered as regular practice within the Empire?

One of two examples (from what is being said about dawn of war). No contradicting quotes or information, no indication that this location is notable or unique within the Tau empire in any way.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Second, if I'm not mistaken, aren't those books not considered direct GW canon? I mean, they're not in publication any more, and I do seem to remember GW saying that they were ultimately third party products?

Proof required of your claim i'm afraid.
FFG games were directly licenced by GW. Everything within is officially endorsed by GW unless there is a statement to the contrary.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So, both from Imperial viewpoints and based on rumours with no concrete evidence, rumours shared with the imperium by those with an axe to grind and an incentive to paint the Tau in the worst possible light.

A report from a senior member of the Astartes to his superior, based on direct first hand observation and interaction with the Tau, for the purpose of informing further study and prudent military strategy.

I mean I literally gave you the whole quote, the book, and the page number so I don't know where you are getting the idea of it being some kind of vague, twisted and wistful slander.

It's widely known that GW doesn't consider any licensed material canon. Blood Ravens weren't an official canon Chapter until a model was released in Deathwatch: Overkill. The Storm Wardens, despite being cool, have never been confirmed canon.
Licensed material is given a lot of room to breathe specifically because GW can just turn around and say "Nah that's not GW-produced material and is therefore not canon". It sucks but that's how it works.

A.T. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Great, we're getting somewhere! Is this a localised case (ie, an outlier within the Empire), or is this considered as regular practice within the Empire?

One of two examples (from what is being said about dawn of war). No contradicting quotes or information, no indication that this location is notable or unique within the Tau empire in any way.

Well, there *is* contradicting information in that we don't see it mentioned anywhere else, or in other pieces of media that do mention the Gue'vesa, in all truth.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Second, if I'm not mistaken, aren't those books not considered direct GW canon? I mean, they're not in publication any more, and I do seem to remember GW saying that they were ultimately third party products?

Proof required of your claim i'm afraid.
FFG games were directly licenced by GW. Everything within is officially endorsed by GW unless there is a statement to the contrary.

As Gert said, that's not quite true. Licenced stuff is not, and has never been, treated in the same way as BL or Codex stuff by GW. Drawn from, inspired by, yes, but the design that went into those wasn't overseen by GW any more so than the Munchkin 40k expansion or 40k Monopoly is canon material.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Well, there *is* contradicting information in that we don't see it mentioned anywhere else

Quotes and references have been provided. You are the one who asked for proof, you are only being asked to meet the same burden.

A.T. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Well, there *is* contradicting information in that we don't see it mentioned anywhere else

Quotes and references have been provided. You are the one who asked for proof, you are only being asked to meet the same burden.

I appreciate the quotes and references you have provided. I should, however, still mention that those quotes and references come from third party material, the internal canonicity of one of the above is questionable.

Alas, I cannot provide sources for the *absence* of the mention of something, as I'm sure you are well aware. All I can tell you is that no direct GW material references what you describe - the source of which is... all GW direct material?