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Vatsetis wrote:
Its not like the Astartes Power Level is fixed in lore and dosent vary greatly depending if they are the protagonist of a given story or not... it can be adjust downward at the same time their numbers increase... you know, sensible numbers-sensible power levels... this way you dont have to overcompensate the artificial lack of Astartes with making every one of them an hybrid of Hulk and Batman (well until they turn to Chaos and are reduced to the Grim Dark version of Homer Simpson).

Why is having a complete disyunction between game and background a good thing? Making them be more online one with each other seems reasonable and I dont see the drawbacks for this approach.

Is not like if Astartes units are weak in the tabletop battlefield by any means.

because uit's impossiable to always have whats seen on the table top jive with what makes sense in fluff, let's go even further then Marines, let's look at Grey Knights or Space Wolves (both work just as well for this example) both of these are a Single chapter of space marines, no sucessors (sorry guys exorcists aren't GK sucessors, they're and imperial fists sucessor per white dwarf 462) and thus number approximatly just over 1000 marines, yet there have been times in which these where two of the most popular armies. should GW have anticpated the GKs being super popular and turned them into "MORE NUMEROUS THEN THE GUARD!"?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
They fixed the 41k thing with just "oh the calendars are all wrong, we need to wind back the clock 100 years to correct it" mighty convenient that!

And yet by Imperial standards very lore applicable. Heck it would not be shocking to find that, in actuality, its only the 39th millennium!

 Overread wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
They fixed the 41k thing with just "oh the calendars are all wrong, we need to wind back the clock 100 years to correct it" mighty convenient that!

And yet by Imperial standards very lore applicable. Heck it would not be shocking to find that, in actuality, its only the 39th millennium!

yeah the lore has ALWAYS been "yeah the calender is more an approximation because thanks to timey whimy warp gak no one's really sure what the feth the date is"

BrianDavion wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Its not like the Astartes Power Level is fixed in lore and dosent vary greatly depending if they are the protagonist of a given story or not... it can be adjust downward at the same time their numbers increase... you know, sensible numbers-sensible power levels... this way you dont have to overcompensate the artificial lack of Astartes with making every one of them an hybrid of Hulk and Batman (well until they turn to Chaos and are reduced to the Grim Dark version of Homer Simpson).

Why is having a complete disyunction between game and background a good thing? Making them be more online one with each other seems reasonable and I dont see the drawbacks for this approach.

Is not like if Astartes units are weak in the tabletop battlefield by any means.

because uit's impossiable to always have whats seen on the table top jive with what makes sense in fluff, let's go even further then Marines, let's look at Grey Knights or Space Wolves (both work just as well for this example) both of these are a Single chapter of space marines, no sucessors (sorry guys exorcists aren't GK sucessors, they're and imperial fists sucessor per white dwarf 462) and thus number approximatly just over 1000 marines, yet there have been times in which these where two of the most popular armies. should GW have anticpated the GKs being super popular and turned them into "MORE NUMEROUS THEN THE GUARD!"?

You are totally mis reading what I said.

Vatsetis wrote:
Who Im I policing anyone just by giving my POV?

As I said many times, there is no need to double down on the most dumb elements of the setting. That just IMHO.

There is enough info in the setting to back up the view that astartes are not just tecno barbarians but rather fight in a proper military structure... And CSM must have some sort of large scale logistics or else they wont be able to wage war on a galactic scale.

Reducing the Heretic Astartes to below the level of organisation of orks, seems wrong.

Why does my view of the background so problematic for some people?

They do have a system of logistics. Imperial Armour 13 alone details 10 Hellforges, 11 if you count the Forge of Souls (a Hellforge run by daemons instead of the Dark Magi of the Dark Mechanicum). They produce everything from Thunderhawks to super heavy tanks, to Rhinos and Predators, to daemon engines. But I can't find any reference to them producing power armour on any large scale. This coupled with the typical depictions of Heretic Astartes as using ancient marks of power armour that are constantly repaired with scavenged parts seems to show that its a bit difficult to produce. Even loyalists are depicted as handing down the suits from marine to marine, and willing to fight full scale conflicts to recover the even more rare Terminator suits on occasion. So that's a limiting factor.

Then as has been repeatedly stated you have the matter of geneseed. Now ALL Heretic Astartes geneseed isn't corrupted beyond use, some Legions/warbands are less corrupted due to having less dealings with daemons and the Dark Gods, but it's a sliding scale. You aren't spending considerable time in The Eye and getting out without some corruption. And you can only produce as much geneseed as you have Astartes, so you are limited to what you can get from those that are "less corrupted" and what you can steal from loyalists.

And then you have the matter that the creation process for new Heretic Astartes is a bit more "stringent" than loyalists. From Codex: Chaos 2nd edition:

The implantation of recruits is a brutal affair, quite unlike the carefully measured program of development used by Imperial Space Marines. Whether the candidate lives or dies is left to the will of the Chaos Gods. Initiation rite are similarly debased and savage, ensuring that only the toughest initiates ever survive.

Codex:Chaos 2nd edition: page 19

All of these factors limit the numbers of Heretic Astartes. Then you have the fact that they often fight their own internecine wars among themselves for resources, territory, or just old vendettas adding further attrition. All of this holds their numbers down.

You also have to remember that the whole "Astartes Power" thing has a tendency to get overstated in both the novels and by fans. A bolter, for instance, isn't a "40mm grenade launcher". They are. 75 caliber, about 19mm, and only slightly larger than a 12 gauge shotgun (.73 caliber), and slightly smaller than a 10 gauge (.78 caliber). They are obviously more powerful because of the whole "rocket propelled" thing and the armour piercing tip, but they are brutal anti-personel weapons, not anti-tank weapons. People tend to exaggerate.

Because GW has never really known how to portray CSM, at one point they are the boogie man, at another they are the biggest threat to the imperium. The dark imperium should be the play ground of chaos but we don’t know what’s going on.

Basically the setting of 40K is that most of the galaxy belong to IOM and the enemies are attacking areas and the SM and AM are constantly having to go off to new war zones, but there is no single force in the galaxy big enough to take on the whole of IOM.

*cough*Tyranids*cough*

Logistics. Pure and simple.

For the most part, CSM are small warbands, rather than Company, Chapter or Legion strength. And they need to raid worlds to procure slaves, resources and equipment to trade. Every raid brings the risk of outright disaster.

You might get in and out with your goal - but if you lose 10 CSM in doing so, chances are you’re not getting a chance to retrieve their Geneseed. That means you’ll struggle to replace them, let alone their equipment.

So you need to source Geneseed from elsewhere. And that involves taking on other Astartes, adding a heightened risk to life and limb.

Every raid you launch needs to produce results - because every raid is an expenditure of resources. Ammo, fuel, wear and tear on your equipment. If you’re driven off without completing your mission? Nobody is just going to give you new stuff to replace what you just expended.

Even if you can harvest Geneseed from fallen comrades, Chaos being Chaos there’s no promises it’s going to be of any use at all.

This is what makes larger strike forces exponentially more threatening. They’re more likely to achieve their goals, and recover the fallen to harvest their Geneseed, patch up and repair the gear, ready for the next aspirant. And indeed steal a bunch of Loyalist gear should it be deployed against them. Put simply, the larger the force, the less prone and exposed they are to attrition.

Because GW has never really known how to portray CSM, at one point they are the boogie man, at another they are the biggest threat to the imperium. The dark imperium should be the play ground of chaos but we don’t know what’s going on.

Basically the setting of 40K is that most of the galaxy belong to IOM and the enemies are attacking areas and the SM and AM are constantly having to go off to new war zones, but there is no single force in the galaxy big enough to take on the whole of IOM.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Who Im I policing anyone just by giving my POV?

As I said many times, there is no need to double down on the most dumb elements of the setting. That just IMHO.

There is enough info in the setting to back up the view that astartes are not just tecno barbarians but rather fight in a proper military structure... And CSM must have some sort of large scale logistics or else they wont be able to wage war on a galactic scale.

Reducing the Heretic Astartes to below the level of organisation of orks, seems wrong.

Why does my view of the background so problematic for some people?

They do have a system of logistics. Imperial Armour 13 alone details 10 Hellforges, 11 if you count the Forge of Souls (a Hellforge run by daemons instead of the Dark Magi of the Dark Mechanicum). They produce everything from Thunderhawks to super heavy tanks, to Rhinos and Predators, to daemon engines. But I can't find any reference to them producing power armour on any large scale. This coupled with the typical depictions of Heretic Astartes as using ancient marks of power armour that are constantly repaired with scavenged parts seems to show that its a bit difficult to produce. Even loyalists are depicted as handing down the suits from marine to marine, and willing to fight full scale conflicts to recover the even more rare Terminator suits on occasion. So that's a limiting factor.

Then as has been repeatedly stated you have the matter of geneseed. Now ALL Heretic Astartes geneseed isn't corrupted beyond use, some Legions/warbands are less corrupted due to having less dealings with daemons and the Dark Gods, but it's a sliding scale. You aren't spending considerable time in The Eye and getting out without some corruption. And you can only produce as much geneseed as you have Astartes, so you are limited to what you can get from those that are "less corrupted" and what you can steal from loyalists.

And then you have the matter that the creation process for new Heretic Astartes is a bit more "stringent" than loyalists. From Codex: Chaos 2nd edition:

The implantation of recruits is a brutal affair, quite unlike the carefully measured program of development used by Imperial Space Marines. Whether the candidate lives or dies is left to the will of the Chaos Gods. Initiation rite are similarly debased and savage, ensuring that only the toughest initiates ever survive.

Codex:Chaos 2nd edition: page 19

All of these factors limit the numbers of Heretic Astartes. Then you have the fact that they often fight their own internecine wars among themselves for resources, territory, or just old vendettas adding further attrition. All of this holds their numbers down.

You also have to remember that the whole "Astartes Power" thing has a tendency to get overstated in both the novels and by fans. A bolter, for instance, isn't a "40mm grenade launcher". They are. 75 caliber, about 19mm, and only slightly larger than a 12 gauge shotgun (.73 caliber), and slightly smaller than a 10 gauge (.78 caliber). They are obviously more powerful because of the whole "rocket propelled" thing and the armour piercing tip, but they are brutal anti-personel weapons, not anti-tank weapons. People tend to exaggerate.

Very nice post. Any reason why Power Armor cannot be built right away just like Predators and other type of hardware? It dosent seem to be the most esoteric piece of equipment in universe (unlike lets say Terminator Suits).

This is one of the better write up on exactly what kind of hell chaos marines live through.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271640-misconceptions-about-csm/page-4#entry3316051

"Because it is" really.
Probably something about the neural interface.

I don't think much else in the Imperium uses such tech, they use plenty of neural implants in servitors and such, but they seem more or less permanent.

Only titans seem to use such 'plug and play' interfaces.

On gene seed, the black legion, at least, is not concerned with the origin of gene seed. Although the extract above from 2nd Ed CSM codex is a great read they have retconned the scenario in the latest Fabius bile books.

Fabius has access to an enormous cache of emperors children gene seed. He also gifted a large amount to abbadon in exchange for not being killed and having his new men destroyed. Fabius now helps create new marines for the black legion in the very least by ensuring others know how to do it. He has a tenuous treaty in place that he provides expert apothecary skills to those that serve the choas gods and they don’t end him.

With regards to power armour, this is an STC so no reason it can’t be made by CSM but I’m not sure about the black carapace which allows the astartes to interact with it in a way that humans wearing power armour can’t.

But the traitor legions have access to pre heresy knowledge and technology and if it isn’t stated as a fact some where you have to assume that they have access to everything they need to create new astartes gear. Why? Becuase whenever it suits GW or an author they reach back 10k years and pull an ace out of the heretics sleeve. They are just sooooo inconsistent about how much pre heresy tech and knowledge is kicking about.

Also you’d have thought in 10k years they could have improved the bolter and chain sword, free of the restrictions of the imperial creed.

You'll find that only a select few within certain Legions won't take whatever gene-seed they can get their hands on.
Any Warbands dedicated to a God won't particularly care who you are or where you came from, as long as you serve whichever one of the Four they serve.
The Iron Warriors are pragmatists and don't care. The Alpha Legion famously concocted a scheme that saw half a Chapter of Imperial Space Marines hypnotically inducted into the Legion. The Black Legion takes from all over. The Night Lords aren't really discussed but they also don't tend to gather in Warbands larger than one ship. The only gene-seed I can see the Word Bearers actively destroying is that of Guillimans lineage for obvious reasons.

mrFickle wrote:


Also you’d have thought in 10k years they could have improved the bolter and chain sword, free of the restrictions of the imperial creed.

I don't think chaos attracts too many scientists, engineers, and free thinkers.
It's followers are normally more interested in other pursuits.

We're also led to believe that STCs are very good designs. It's likely that there's no room for improvement unless you introduce crazy material science like living metal or wraithbone.

STC's are just blueprints, you can add to things after you make them but altering an STC could ruin it forever and considering how rare/valuable an intact STC is even a Dark Mechanicus Adept who dabbles in Daemon Engines and sentient weapons isn't going to be responsible for breaking an STC.

mrFickle wrote:
On gene seed, the black legion, at least, is not concerned with the origin of gene seed. Although the extract above from 2nd Ed CSM codex is a great read they have retconned the scenario in the latest Fabius bile books.

Bile's situation doesn't really retcon the quote from the 2nd edition Chaos Codex. That quote still for example describes the Death Guard, who recruit from some of the feral warriors on their daemon world.

Iracundus wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
On gene seed, the black legion, at least, is not concerned with the origin of gene seed. Although the extract above from 2nd Ed CSM codex is a great read they have retconned the scenario in the latest Fabius bile books.

Bile's situation doesn't really retcon the quote from the 2nd edition Chaos Codex. That quote still for example describes the Death Guard, who recruit from some of the feral warriors on their daemon world.

I suppose I mean to say that that statement doesn’t limit the number of new CSM anymore. It suggest that the process of creating them is so harsh that not many survive but and their is an implication maybe that there are only so many people that can go through the process, which isn’t the case anymore.

you’re right I used the word badly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

mrFickle wrote:


Also you’d have thought in 10k years they could have improved the bolter and chain sword, free of the restrictions of the imperial creed.

I don't think chaos attracts too many scientists, engineers, and free thinkers.
It's followers are normally more interested in other pursuits.

We're also led to believe that STCs are very good designs. It's likely that there's no room for improvement unless you introduce crazy material science like living metal or wraithbone.

Many space marines, loyal or traitor, seem to have almost genius level intelligence, they are plenty of portrayals of space marines doing genetic science like the raven guard or bile himself.

But they have slave, they can capture clever people to do their bidding and demon world have huge populations of people from which some clever clogs must emerge.

But I was thinking more like demon teeth on the chainswords. Maybe even loading bolters with demons so that the bullets are guided or something creative like that.

However, to undermine my own point, many of the stories of have read about CSM show them as still being loyal to the idea of what a space marine is, maybe sentimental about their culture and traditions. And what’s more traditional than a bolter and a chain sword

Vatsetis wrote:
Ok, since Chaos forces dont need to follow the self imposse restrictions of codex astartes nor have to worry of their ranks joining the loyalist* because of the dogmatic approach of the Imperium towards "traitors" why dont they muster millions upon billions of Heretics Astartes to put an end to the long war?

They have the known how and they have the time to do so.


*I known there are some exceptions, but in general the IOM dont accept back the deserters.

I would be inclined to say that there are far more Chaos Space Marines than loyalist ones and that's one of the reason though, while far more numerous to a ratio that I would put around 3 to 1 approximately, their raw number remains low due to lack of good geneseed, the fact that their environment (daemon worlds) isn't exactly ideal for recruiting new ones and general disunity between the various warbands caused by rivalry, madness, greed, etc. Some warlords are powerful enough to maintain a steady and important number of recruits with equipment built by the Dark Mechanicus or by their own team of Warpsmith while others are basically raiding scavengers surviving off stolen geneseed and equipment and who can't get involve in more than raids against more or less soft targets.

Ironically, both present a different set of challenge and threat to the Imperium the powerful warlords will not attack very often, but will muster armies capable of devastating entire systems. Abaddon, the most famous and powerful of them all, has launched the most numerous and devastating attacks of them all on the Imperium, but in total that's only 13 attempts so a bit more than once per millennia when you think about it. To stop him and others of his type, the Imperium needs massive armies and preparation and suffers terrible casualties. Some of them irrecuperable in the current condition of the Imperium. The raiders are an annoyance and pose no threat to the survival of the Imperium, but they do cause damage, sow terror, motivate betrayal and desertion and since communication is difficult in the galaxy, it's not easy to coordinate a track for a bunch of piratical expert soldiers on a good ship attacking seemingly at random.

I would also say that the forces of Chaos in general, so that would also include daemonic invasions and human renegades, are the Imperium most dreaded foe not because they are the ones most capable of destroying the Imperium, but mostly because they are the Imperium's most hated foe as they are traitors and a dark mirror of themselves. Most of the Imperium military forces are probably engaged against orks who are by far the most numerous species of the galaxy though severely disunited themselves and the Tyranids force the muster of more and more resources with each passing century as their number increase and they dig further into the galaxy. With the galaxy being split in two, now, the forces of Chaos probably represent the greatest threat in the galaxy for the first time since the Heresy.

Vatsetis wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Who Im I policing anyone just by giving my POV?

As I said many times, there is no need to double down on the most dumb elements of the setting. That just IMHO.

There is enough info in the setting to back up the view that astartes are not just tecno barbarians but rather fight in a proper military structure... And CSM must have some sort of large scale logistics or else they wont be able to wage war on a galactic scale.

Reducing the Heretic Astartes to below the level of organisation of orks, seems wrong.

Why does my view of the background so problematic for some people?

They do have a system of logistics. Imperial Armour 13 alone details 10 Hellforges, 11 if you count the Forge of Souls (a Hellforge run by daemons instead of the Dark Magi of the Dark Mechanicum). They produce everything from Thunderhawks to super heavy tanks, to Rhinos and Predators, to daemon engines. But I can't find any reference to them producing power armour on any large scale. This coupled with the typical depictions of Heretic Astartes as using ancient marks of power armour that are constantly repaired with scavenged parts seems to show that its a bit difficult to produce. Even loyalists are depicted as handing down the suits from marine to marine, and willing to fight full scale conflicts to recover the even more rare Terminator suits on occasion. So that's a limiting factor.

Then as has been repeatedly stated you have the matter of geneseed. Now ALL Heretic Astartes geneseed isn't corrupted beyond use, some Legions/warbands are less corrupted due to having less dealings with daemons and the Dark Gods, but it's a sliding scale. You aren't spending considerable time in The Eye and getting out without some corruption. And you can only produce as much geneseed as you have Astartes, so you are limited to what you can get from those that are "less corrupted" and what you can steal from loyalists.

And then you have the matter that the creation process for new Heretic Astartes is a bit more "stringent" than loyalists. From Codex: Chaos 2nd edition:

The implantation of recruits is a brutal affair, quite unlike the carefully measured program of development used by Imperial Space Marines. Whether the candidate lives or dies is left to the will of the Chaos Gods. Initiation rite are similarly debased and savage, ensuring that only the toughest initiates ever survive.

Codex:Chaos 2nd edition: page 19

All of these factors limit the numbers of Heretic Astartes. Then you have the fact that they often fight their own internecine wars among themselves for resources, territory, or just old vendettas adding further attrition. All of this holds their numbers down.

You also have to remember that the whole "Astartes Power" thing has a tendency to get overstated in both the novels and by fans. A bolter, for instance, isn't a "40mm grenade launcher". They are. 75 caliber, about 19mm, and only slightly larger than a 12 gauge shotgun (.73 caliber), and slightly smaller than a 10 gauge (.78 caliber). They are obviously more powerful because of the whole "rocket propelled" thing and the armour piercing tip, but they are brutal anti-personel weapons, not anti-tank weapons. People tend to exaggerate.

Very nice post. Any reason why Power Armor cannot be built right away just like Predators and other type of hardware? It dosent seem to be the most esoteric piece of equipment in universe (unlike lets say Terminator Suits).

Not sure. I can't find anything on it. The theories from other posters that the interface for the Black Carapace is the "esoteric" component seems sound. The Imperium doesn't seem to have a problem producing plenty of suits for the SoB that lack it, so that could be the sticking point. Or it could just be a matter of few Forge Worlds/Hellforges having access to the required STCs.

mrFickle wrote:On gene seed, the black legion, at least, is not concerned with the origin of gene seed. Although the extract above from 2nd Ed CSM codex is a great read they have retconned the scenario in the latest Fabius bile books.

Fabius has access to an enormous cache of emperors children gene seed. He also gifted a large amount to abbadon in exchange for not being killed and having his new men destroyed. Fabius now helps create new marines for the black legion in the very least by ensuring others know how to do it. He has a tenuous treaty in place that he provides expert apothecary skills to those that serve the choas gods and they don’t end him.

I wouldn't say it's been retconned. The excerpt deals with the brutality of the implantation process and the initiation rites, not with the numbers of them. Basically CSM practice a far more "Darwinian" approach with their initiates, in order to make sure only the strongest survive. Which means more die in the process, so you get less fully fledged Astartes per number of aspirants.

I assume this large cache of EC geneseed is detailed in the Fabius Bile novels? I haven't gotten a chance to read them. Does it go into detail on how large it was?

Gert wrote:You'll find that only a select few within certain Legions won't take whatever gene-seed they can get their hands on.
Any Warbands dedicated to a God won't particularly care who you are or where you came from, as long as you serve whichever one of the Four they serve.
The Iron Warriors are pragmatists and don't care. The Alpha Legion famously concocted a scheme that saw half a Chapter of Imperial Space Marines hypnotically inducted into the Legion. The Black Legion takes from all over. The Night Lords aren't really discussed but they also don't tend to gather in Warbands larger than one ship. The only gene-seed I can see the Word Bearers actively destroying is that of Guillimans lineage for obvious reasons.

Night Lords use stolen geneseed as well. From Faith and Fury:

Several Space Marine fortress-monasteries were raided, geneseed stolen and armouries emptied, defenders mutilated and ritually slaughtered.

Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury, page 18

So even though the Night Lords have the "purest" geneseed, they still require stolen geneseed to bolster their numbers. You can't get untainted geneseed from a Raptor, after all.

On your "Night Lords don't tend to gather in Warbands larger than one ship" point:

Long scattered, they are uniting, warband by warband, in the name of some dire cause.

Codex:Chaos Space Marines 8th edition, page 36

And from Vigilus Ablaze:

The Night Lords upon Vigilus were few, as the greater portion of their Legion was involved in an escalating war with the Asuryani, but they made a heavy impact nonetheless.

Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze, page 82, Emphasis mine

The greater portion of their Legion. Not "warbands", LEGION. Sounds like the 8th Legion might be Getting the Band Back Together.

Yes the bile novel details how much of it there is, enough to rebuild the EC legion, you know pre heresy numbers of troops.

Plus Bile can clone the progeniod glands I assume, the point is they are original genetic material frozen in time by a certain someone.

They are good books and I think one of their main reasons for existence is resolve some of these question about how do the CSM continue to operate. And maybe create the fluff needed to launch the new emperors children codex……………..

There are always limitations, as others have well described. We should assume that the forces of Chaos do try to put out as many Chaos Space Marines as possible, yet reality and unreality will impose its restrictions on how many Heretic Astartes they can crank out.

Attrition from wars against Imperial forces, Xenos and each others are part of the equation. Internecine conflict waste resources that could otherwise have been amassed for external use.

Production limitations for such high-end advanced wargear as power armour and Astartes weapons and vehicles are still a major factor for the forces of Chaos, even with all the reality-bending shortcuts the Dark Mechanicum may be able to take. Remember that Chaos forces ultimately are a parody of existing cultures in the Materium. As it happens, they are a parody of the rotten and decrepit Imperium with its loss of knowledge and higher production capabilities. Chaos Space Marines do not have access to pristine, optimized Dark Age of Technology factories, but the supoptimal Imperial scavenging and reconstructions of some of these ancient machines.

Likewise, while the Chaos forces enjoy a fair number of worlds under their control, it is still a lesser amount compared to the Imperium. Their Hellforges are likewise lesser in number compared to the Forgeworlds of the Adeptus Mechanicus. How much raw materials can they extract from controlled planets and asteroids? How much materials can be sporadically recycled from space hulks and war loot? How many production facilities for hardware and geneseed reproduction through cloning/servitor growing do they possess? How many new ones are they able to build? Their industrial might will have limitations, even if they work to make the most out of it.

Official background has detailed the deterioration of the Traitor Legions' geneseed, with a need to raid loyalist geneseed to fill out their numbers. We should assume they will try to maximize geneseed production (both their own, and stolen loyalist geneseed), but this will severely dampen their efforts, even when compared to the decaying Imperium. It's a major bottleneck, and it's growing worse over long millennia.

Finally, one 3rd edition White Dwarf article describes how Fabius Bile has increased lethality for Marine recruits so that on average one in a thousand survive their training under his supervision, as compared to one in a hundred within the Imperial Astartes. This, too, will put a major restraint upon the ability of Heretic Astartes to massproduce new Chaos Space Marines. We should assume that they will maximize flesh input and constantly raid for more bodies than can be locally bred. Again, their resources are smaller than the Imperium's.

Finally, all their precious Primarchs are either dead or Daemonprinces. This mean that they can no longer extract whatever mysterious stabilizing substance that allowed the Great Crusade era Legiones Astartes to massproduce new Space Marines on full speed. With the Primarchs gone, they are stuck in a similar position as their Imperial Marine counterparts.

It all adds up to a picture of limitations and restrictions which the forces of Chaos must work within. They have logistics and production capabilities, and they are likely to bolster them with all manner of Warptainted cheats, so to speak. Yet it all paints a picture of multiple industrial bottlenecks. They are probably churning out new Heretic Astartes as fast as they possibly can.

Faster, even, thanks to Chaos gifts and unholy powers at their disposal.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Who Im I policing anyone just by giving my POV?

As I said many times, there is no need to double down on the most dumb elements of the setting. That just IMHO.

There is enough info in the setting to back up the view that astartes are not just tecno barbarians but rather fight in a proper military structure... And CSM must have some sort of large scale logistics or else they wont be able to wage war on a galactic scale.

Reducing the Heretic Astartes to below the level of organisation of orks, seems wrong.

Why does my view of the background so problematic for some people?

They do have a system of logistics. Imperial Armour 13 alone details 10 Hellforges, 11 if you count the Forge of Souls (a Hellforge run by daemons instead of the Dark Magi of the Dark Mechanicum). They produce everything from Thunderhawks to super heavy tanks, to Rhinos and Predators, to daemon engines. But I can't find any reference to them producing power armour on any large scale. This coupled with the typical depictions of Heretic Astartes as using ancient marks of power armour that are constantly repaired with scavenged parts seems to show that its a bit difficult to produce. Even loyalists are depicted as handing down the suits from marine to marine, and willing to fight full scale conflicts to recover the even more rare Terminator suits on occasion. So that's a limiting factor.
.

I feel obliged to note that a system of logistics is more then JUST "they have forge worlds" logistics also includes the distribution system of getting those supplies out. and over all I think a lot of warbands lack that, the impression I get is all but the largest warbands needs to show up at those forge worlds and bargin for their supplies, and that kind of enviroment can lead to a feast or famine situation for a warband. I bet there are more then a few warbands out there that have become virtual slaves to a forge world due to a series of military defeats forcing them to take on more and more debt (.... intreasting idea for a combined chaos marine/dark mech army if we ever get a dark mech codex)

Its pretty obvious that the Chaotic Mortal Forces gathered arround the traitor legions have much, much less resources than the IOM as a whole.

But I was just asking why they cannot produce Heretic Astartes in a significant higher number than the IOM. Because the IOM allegedly restricts the Adeptus Astartes to a ridicously low number (1 million) basically for political reasons (preventing a new Horus Heresy) since they dont trust their own Astartes.

After Cawl Primaris program and the comming of Guilliman the number of Astartes chapters and the size of the chapters has greatly increased. So they can grow if needed (but CSM dont have the same political restrictions as the IOM) ... But we have to assume that geneseed is a hard bottleneck.

Well people have put forward a number of explanations as to why the CSM are limited in the number of new Astartes can put into the field... the cuantitative elements of the setting are a bit flimsy.

To put things on perspective in the Earth today we have more than 20 million people in the regular military... that number can be risen to 100 million with ease in case of a Total War scenario (call reservist and militarise paramilitary and policemen) we certainly have the weapons and ammunition to sustain such effort (perhaps the "There is Only War" motto should be applied to the "peaceful" XXI Utopia). So its not hard to assume that in the IOM or in the "Chaotic Sphere" there are quite a few planets able to sustain military forces of 100 million people or even higher.

The military significance of a SM Chapter is insignificant given the gargantuan size of the setting if you put it in perspective (excluding the fleet, but those ship are not even crewed by Astartes anyway).

Vatsetis wrote:
Well people have put forward a number of explanations as to why the CSM are limited in the number of new Astartes can put into the field... the cuantitative elements of the setting are a bit flimsy.

To put things on perspective in the Earth today we have more than 20 million people in the regular military... that number can be risen to 100 million with ease in case of a Total War scenario (call reservist and militarise paramilitary and policemen) we certainly have the weapons and ammunition to sustain such effort (perhaps the "There is Only War" motto should be applied to the "peaceful" XXI Utopia). So its not hard to assume that in the IOM or in the "Chaotic Sphere" there are quite a few planets able to sustain military forces of 100 million people or even higher.

The military significance of a SM Chapter is insignificant given the gargantuan size of the setting if you put it in perspective (excluding the fleet, but those ship are not even crewed by Astartes anyway).

A few things to point out.
Modern Earth has that many soldiers because each and every nation needs to have a standing army to defend itself against the other nations. If you take away the nations and put them all under a single banner (The Imperium) then they don't need 20 million soldiers.
You also keep ignoring how Astartes operate. They don't sit there and take a war of attrition killing every single soldier on a planet, they go for the throat and kill any leadership be it civilian or military. Astartes don't even need to make landfall, they can just drop lance strikes on any target they don't want to bother attacking. It doesn't matter if modern Earth can muster 100 million soldiers because those soldiers are all inferior to Astartes in literally every way.
It also doesn't matter how big the population of a planet is because the process of creating an Astartes is extremely difficult, regardless of allegiance. Imperial Chapters take their time with implantation and training so they don't waste very finite resources and CSM often just have to roll the dice and get lucky. It doesn't matter if you have 7 billion candidates because you are only going to have gene-seed reserves in the hundreds.

Vatsetis wrote:
So the Heretic Astartes are mostly incapable of military action because they lack a proper chain in command or logistics and aparently all of them suffer from ADHD? How can they be the IOM main antagonist?

Kind of funny to see how Astartes transform from demigods able to single hand take down a bunker complex to hopeless hobos just because they change their loyalty.

I mean... yes?
To begin with the original astartes never had anything to do with logistics, that was the job of the mechanicum and administratum. They were killers, pure and simple and not exactly the most stable type - I mean do you want your logistics run by the band of emo edgelord serial killers, the kill maim burn kill maim burn blood for the blood god marines, or I am Alpharius, no I am Alpharius, no he is Alpharius and we are the good/bad/Alpharius guys working to save/destroy humanity for/from the Emperor/Chaos, wait who was Alpharius again?

And that was before they were cast into the warp and went properly insane.

They are antagonists in the sense of being why the IoM is the way it is - every brand of psychotic slasher-movie psychopaths, constantly gnawing at the Imperium from within and without turning it into the hellish distopia that exists to maintain the status quo of 'not quite overrun by the superhuman madmen'.
If it was just orks, or tyranids, or necrons the IoM might still be warlike to its core but they would be pulling in the same direction. Chaos is about breaking them from within as well as from without, and chaos marines represent how even humanity's greatest hope is twisted upon them by these distant and unassailable hell-gods.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not sure. I can't find anything on it. The theories from other posters that the interface for the Black Carapace is the "esoteric" component seems sound. The Imperium doesn't seem to have a problem producing plenty of suits for the SoB that lack it, so that could be the sticking point.

To be fair SoB power armour is just armour plate over a light exoskeleton - servos of human-like strength and speed are mundane for the setting given the vast numbers of servitors and civilian enhancements from bionic limbs to pit slaves and flagellants.

Marine armour has to be able to significatly enhance the strength of a superhuman, while keeping up with their blinding speed and surviving the same damage they can. It's going to be on a whole other level technologically.

SoB aren't that numerous though are they?

Also the fact that they're the personal army of the ecclesiarchy means they have access to great wealth and a strong desire to show off the grandeur of who they represent.

I would say that the SoB are on par with the Mechanicus in terms of strength. Neither are as numerous as the Militarum but also not as specialised as the Astartes, they occupy the middle ground. A Militarum Officer is more likely to treat with a Techpriest and a Cannoness than they are with any form of Astartes.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Who Im I policing anyone just by giving my POV?

As I said many times, there is no need to double down on the most dumb elements of the setting. That just IMHO.

There is enough info in the setting to back up the view that astartes are not just tecno barbarians but rather fight in a proper military structure... And CSM must have some sort of large scale logistics or else they wont be able to wage war on a galactic scale.

Reducing the Heretic Astartes to below the level of organisation of orks, seems wrong.

Why does my view of the background so problematic for some people?

They do have a system of logistics. Imperial Armour 13 alone details 10 Hellforges, 11 if you count the Forge of Souls (a Hellforge run by daemons instead of the Dark Magi of the Dark Mechanicum). They produce everything from Thunderhawks to super heavy tanks, to Rhinos and Predators, to daemon engines. But I can't find any reference to them producing power armour on any large scale. This coupled with the typical depictions of Heretic Astartes as using ancient marks of power armour that are constantly repaired with scavenged parts seems to show that its a bit difficult to produce. Even loyalists are depicted as handing down the suits from marine to marine, and willing to fight full scale conflicts to recover the even more rare Terminator suits on occasion. So that's a limiting factor.
.

I feel obliged to note that a system of logistics is more then JUST "they have forge worlds" logistics also includes the distribution system of getting those supplies out. and over all I think a lot of warbands lack that, the impression I get is all but the largest warbands needs to show up at those forge worlds and bargin for their supplies, and that kind of enviroment can lead to a feast or famine situation for a warband. I bet there are more then a few warbands out there that have become virtual slaves to a forge world due to a series of military defeats forcing them to take on more and more debt (.... intreasting idea for a combined chaos marine/dark mech army if we ever get a dark mech codex)

We know that Chaos forces place a lower priority on logistics for example as shown in the BFG rulebook under the description of Chaos transport ships:

Although, to our knowledge, the Chaos forces did not build merchant transports of their own during the Gothic War, they did make ready use of captured Imperial vessels. Often these merchant ships showed signs of hasty repairs to damage suffered during their capture, while towards the end of the Gothic War, hijacked vessels that had been in the services of Chaos for many years began to show signs of the warping influence of the Dark Gods. These vessels were mostly crewed by pirates, cultists and renegades and were generally poorly manned. One can only surmise that the followers of Chaos were loathe to take part in such passive activities as transporting weapons, slaves and foodstuffs to the Chaos fleets.

- page 126, BFG rulebook

One reason is because Chaos Champions are motivated by the desire to win the favor of their gods, not by purely conventional military goals. This outlook has probably shaped their whole view of things and led to a devaluing of logistics. They don't entirely neglect it, but clearly it's seen as the least desirable posting because one is unlikely to win any godly favor by ferrying supplies around (or being the one that organizes the supply system).

The trap of the "company store" is one I can easily see smaller warbands falling into. Eventually they might be reduced to being de facto vassals of the Dark Mechanicum, running whatever errands or missions they are told to do in return for maintenance, supplies, and new recruits.

 Gert wrote:
I would say that the SoB are on par with the Mechanicus in terms of strength. Neither are as numerous as the Militarum but also not as specialised as the Astartes, they occupy the middle ground. A Militarum Officer is more likely to treat with a Techpriest and a Cannoness than they are with any form of Astartes.

I dont think SoB can claim same strength as the Mechanicus arm. Holy order of warriors vs the guys who make the GOOD weaponry and produce super heavy and titan legions. And thats not counting the stuff the tech priests aren't hiding in case of a rainy day!