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20-29 PL is 3 CP. You pay for the total PL put into reserves.

Heureka!

Hey guys.

I have a question related to Mek Gunz. Now that we dont split them up that makes me a bit confused about how the kustom mega kannons work.

Lets say you have a unit of 2 KMK. They both roll a 1 on their hit rolls and take a wound. Would both Mek Gunz be down to 4 wounds because you rolled them individually or do you roll them both simultaneously and thus, you would just give 2 wounds to 1 mek gun?

As i understand it, they have to be rolled individually because its the mek gun that makes the roll of 1 that has to take the damage. But that makes me question how you dedicate wounds to them afterwards. if they both have lost 1 wound, can i freely choose which of the mek gunz i want to dedicate wounds to afterwards when they get shot at?

And if one has 3 wounds left and another 4, can i still choose how i dedicate these wounds? normally you have to give wounds to the already wounded model...


The last thing is related to the grot krew. I cant remember the text from the old codex, but i recalled you could hold objectives with a grot itself rather than the actual mek gun having to stand on the objective. is this still the case? Because it says all ranges are measured to and from the Mek gun. would that also mean that you are only in dense terrain if the mek gun is standing in it (or behind it)? or can a grot still do that. Furthermore i would assume that when someone deepstrikes they also DONT measure to the grots but the Mek Gun. how that relates to close combat i dont know.

Depends on the wording of the gun, but generally rolling a 1 suffer damage type weapons says "Bearer suffers 1 mortal wound" which would specifically mean that model, not the entire unit.
Its why it always irritates me that marine players running a giant blob of plasma gets pissy that half their unit died.....no...you have to roll them separately because if one rolled multiple 1s only that one actually suffers.

Its one thing i liked about running Grot Tanks before the most recent IA screwed them over...they largely didnt care about that damage since it got spread all over the place.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Depends on the wording of the gun, but generally rolling a 1 suffer damage type weapons says "Bearer suffers 1 mortal wound" which would specifically mean that model, not the entire unit.
Its why it always irritates me that marine players running a giant blob of plasma gets pissy that half their unit died.....no...you have to roll them separately because if one rolled multiple 1s only that one actually suffers.

Its one thing i liked about running Grot Tanks before the most recent IA screwed them over...they largely didnt care about that damage since it got spread all over the place.

it says the bearer so i have to roll them individually. But if one Mek gun takes 2 wounds and another one takes 1 wound from rolling 1s, what happens when the enemy shoots at me? Which of the two models must i dedicate wounds to first? the one with fewest wounds?

That case is not covered by the rules, as the only relevant rule is you have to take further wounds on already wounded models.
GW simply didn't think about cases where you have multiple wounded models in 1squad.

In that case I've always played it so, that the controlling player chooses which of the wounded models suffers the next one.
There are actually quite a few units than can have multiple wounded models.

 Grotrebel wrote:
That case is not covered by the rules, as the only relevant rule is you have to take further wounds on already wounded models.
GW simply didn't think about cases where you have multiple wounded models in 1squad.

In that case I've always played it so, that the controlling player chooses which of the wounded models suffers the next one.
There are actually quite a few units than can have multiple wounded models.

true. Grot tanks with KMBs are in the same boat.

gungo wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont think tau have easy access to ignoring modifiers on its own but they went back to the old markerlight system so they can very easily get +2 to hit to offset it.
Also Markerlights arent a shot anymore so they dont care about -1 to hit.

Yeah, markerlights are quite straight forward and hard to stop besides killing the platform using them now. I feel like an alphork strike list is probably one of the better things to use against Tau because you want to pen them in their deployment and tag stuff before they have a chance to set up firing lanes and nuke our units with their superior firepower.

Fast Goff pressure with thier anti vehicle bonuses maybe evilsun speedmob where a 9x war biker unit first turn charging can do some damage with the 5+ invul and cloud of smoke shenanigans. Overall I don’t think tau are that bad when playing msu. I mean I’d hate to be playing knights right now vs them.

Warbikers get a natural -1 to hit but can't use cloud of smoke as they aren't vehicles (no stacking -1s to counter +1s). Same with flyers as they aren't speed freeks.

Confusing i know but Cloud of smoke is also the name of the natural -1 to hit ability on warbikers…. Which is also the name of the -1 to hit strategem!

gungo wrote:
Confusing i know but Cloud of smoke is also the name of the natural -1 to hit ability on warbikers…. Which is also the name of the -1 to hit strategem!

Oh GW

RAW there is no way to identify which model should suffer damage if multiples have damage, since the Gets Hot effect is afaik the only way it ever happens anymore.

I have always just done whichever has more damage must take the damage, both because that makes sense and it avoids any possible arguments.

gungo wrote:
Confusing i know but Cloud of smoke is also the name of the natural -1 to hit ability on warbikers…. Which is also the name of the -1 to hit strategem!

As I recall while the Warbikers get it the Warboss on a Warbike does not get it. Very consistent!

 Vineheart01 wrote:
RAW there is no way to identify which model should suffer damage if multiples have damage, since the Gets Hot effect is afaik the only way it ever happens anymore.

I have always just done whichever has more damage must take the damage, both because that makes sense and it avoids any possible arguments.

If I get it right the multiple kmk should be played this way;
Declare a target for each of your guns.
Roll separately for each gun. If during the shooting sequence you get 1s - the shooting gun receives a mw.
If the declared target dies before you get to shoot the next gun, the shots are not fired (not sure here, correct me if I'm wrong).

So, for example, you have 3 kmk and declare to be shooting at a rhino with all 3.
1st rolls a 1 with one ore more of to-hits and receives a MW.
2d rolls a 1 with one or more of to-hits and receives a MW. Also, it kills a rhino
3d doesn't get to shoot, rolls nothing and receives no MW.

Now you have 2 wounded guns in a squad and if you receive, for example 2 wounds with damage 3, you can easily allocate first wound to one gun and the second one go another leaving you with 3 guns still, though 2 of them have 2 out of 6 wounds.

It's a nice loophole but... It's not really that relevant since the potential of playing around with wounds this way is offset by ld4. The only thing j can think of is if you're running makari to at least have some decent ld6 and be able to handle some losses.

Technically that is correct because technically you are supposed to roll for each attack individually from hit -> wound -> save -> damage.
Its something that unless something like Gets Hot is a factor nobody cares because its incredibly slow.

Thats why "whenever a unit attacks, it may reroll the hit roll" means reroll ALL hit rolls not literally "a" hit roll

 koooaei wrote:
Now you have 2 wounded guns in a squad and if you receive, for example 2 wounds with damage 3, you can easily allocate first wound to one gun and the second one go another leaving you with 3 guns still, though 2 of them have 2 out of 6 wounds.

You can't do that - once you have allocated an attack to a model, you need to allocate all further attacks during that phase to the same model, whether it has lost wounds or not.

I love Richard Siegler’s LVO list. Great to see that a toolbox list can win that big.

Trying to unpack its elements I´d say backline shooting and a mixed midfield of resilient shooters and melee shifting roles depending on the opposition. A gunline will be charged by Ruststalkers and vice versa for melee strategies. Chicken walkers eliminate armor and elite stuff. Very nice and balanced.

I´m trying to emulate such a strategy with BA, but I guess I´m not at Rickard´s level, finishing a PhD at the same as he casually won the ITC and LVO, so will take a while

Especially as an ork player, you should know that beating a list and beating a player are two different things

That said, I don't think orks have the same toolkit available as ad mech does, the closest to a high utility, high adaptivity list we currently have is the goff tempo archetype as both types of buggies are kind of locked into their game plan from the moment you deploy.

I am a bit lost here. What is the 'goff tempo archetype' ? Is that the alpha-ork style list ?

I'm looking at the comprehensive and first post in this thread from Jidmah, looks like it was updated most recently Sept 14 last year.

Is the consensus that I should still consider it fairly up-to-date and a good starting point for me?

Thanks kindly,

It’s still reasonably close but orks had quite a few changes. I think deffkopta s went up especially w army of renown and kommandos might not be must take anymore. With squigboss being a little less auto take too.

popisdead wrote:
I'm looking at the comprehensive and first post in this thread from Jidmah, looks like it was updated most recently Sept 14 last year.

Is the consensus that I should still consider it fairly up-to-date and a good starting point for me?

Thanks kindly,

There are arguments on a lot of the units. And a lot of stuff has changed since then. Yeah, koptas have originally been disregarded due to wow-effect from the buggies. But than it turned out they have always been good. And now, with the nerf to buggies and army of reknown koptas are one of the best units in the codex.

On the other hand, there are units that have good use but only in some specific conditions - like little meks that are for some reason placed as "absolute garbage - never take". But some players, including myself have had great results with them.

I'd treat the first post as somewhat relevant but taken with a grain of salt. Mostly a guideline for your first couple games to not get a non-functional list from the get go. But as you move on and get experience, you start to see that sometimes you don't need the "green" Units but instead "yellow" or even "red" ones need to be taken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the effectiveness of the same units depends on a lot of factors. For example, if you play with a lot of Los blocking terrain, flyers, out of Los shooting and mobile mellee gets significantly better. You can take a trukk, place something killy and expensive inside and do great. But if you regularly play on open tables, the units you are gona pick will also change. No small squads without transports, kff mek (if not army of reknown), fewer kommandoes, cheaper stuff in trukks and wagons, reserved units, etc.
And if you play smaller <= 1k pt games, some things become better, some worse. Like taking Ghaz in a 500 pt game is probably not a good idea as you'll get outscored easilly. Or paying 20pt for a 5++ for your trukk might actually become viable as you're not running off mek and 5++ will come in handy and might be enough to survive enemy shooting whereas it's almost completely irrelevant in larger games cause there WILL be enough guns to kill it regardless. And you simply need blos.

Maybe the part about the clans and their traits/relics is little bit out of date. A lot has been changed since the last autumn.

ES used to be interesting but useless.
BA was intereted on the beginning - remember the Mani Cheema BA buggy crazyness - and than falled back and now rise again.
The hottest list - Goff Killrig preasure list was something we was speaking about but nobody actually played it or seen it anywhere.
Freebootas was top notch, now they are an option for “old school buggy list”

An also important change is mono clan list building.
For example Death Skulls have seen a lot of play as a little Kommando / Stormboy MSU detachment for ObSec objectives play besides a larger main force.
While the trait is still OK, it is far less useful when you have to go mono clan.

Evil Sunz, Goffs (Alpha pressure list), Freebooters (Wazbom / Buggy Spam) and Blood Axes are the best ones now.

For me Blood Axes are the best Clan atm, as it offers a lot of utility and the advance + actions + shoot strat is really strong in the new CA missions. It offers many good tools as well as a good supplement with a few strong things.


Unit wise I can agree in the other posts.

Top tier: Wazbom, Koptas, Bikes, Scrapjet, Squigbuggy, Kommandos, Stormboys, Trukk Boys
Solid: Warbosses of all kind, Dakkajet, MA Mek, the other Buggies

The rest varies from might somehow work in the right list to outright bad.
Of course this depends heavily on what kind of army you go for, your tables and what armies you face.

 Grotrebel wrote:

….For me Blood Axes are the best Clan atm….

This is the first time in a couple of years I play W40k I hear something like this and it makes sence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyler Russo 2nd on CaptainCon GT beated 3 Custodian armies in new Nachmund missions with ES Speed Mob.

Does anybody can post there his list from BCP or somewhere please?

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-crossing-the-gauntlet/

XC18 wrote:
I am a bit lost here. What is the 'goff tempo archetype' ? Is that the alpha-ork style list ?

To describe it roughly it's a goff army revolving around kill rigs, kommadoz, beast bosses and punching people in the face by using the Waaagh! to close the gap. The actual lists are highly varied, you see pretty much anything from Thrakka to squig hogs to MANz. Essentially people are building a melee toolbox to fit their playstyle. Semper's alphork list would probably fit into that archetype.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

popisdead wrote:
I'm looking at the comprehensive and first post in this thread from Jidmah, looks like it was updated most recently Sept 14 last year.

Is the consensus that I should still consider it fairly up-to-date and a good starting point for me?

Thanks kindly,

It's a bit outdated, koooaei summarized it pretty well. I currently do not have the time to update the first post as I'm quite busy with real life, otherwise I would already have done so.

 Tomsug wrote:
Tyler Russo 2nd on CaptainCon GT beated 3 Custodian armies in new Nachmund missions with ES Speed Mob.

Does anybody can post there his list from BCP or somewhere please?

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-crossing-the-gauntlet/

Hi, I am the speed mob player from this article. The action oriented missions can be a struggle but the army is still incredible and I’m having a ton of fun with it. Custodes are an extremely easy matchup if there’s no magnifica, and the one opponent I fought who did have one (round 5) was a much harder game but still ultimately a win for me. If it’s a player who knows what they’re doing and plays it well the magnifica makes tabling as a win condition much harder, but with careful play on most missions winning off the mission is still very feasible. It’s easier with 5 and 6 objective missions, anything with dawn of war style deployment is more difficult too, but I really like speed mob into the custodes matchup. Even with a 4+++ fnp against mortals enough kopta attacks and mortals from crashing through/ramming speed still finish off wounded bikes, lone characters and dreads with 5 or less wounds consistently. Rokkits with speed mob just dumpster them

I took get da good bits twice at this event and never because I wanted to lol. It works on some missions and some matchups but with only 3 units of bikes sure sucks if they all die. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend taking more bikes to do it, since that’s a lot of points to commit to a still not that durable action unit, but if you are okay with scoring 6-9 for it (12 was my highest score and that was only because of a very fortunate ruin placement) it is totally fine in some matchups. Against custodes I usually prefer assassinate/no prisoners, the changes to no prisoners makes most custodes armies give up 8+ points pretty often.

I take engage almost every game, only taking stranglehold if it’s a 5 objective mission and my matchup isn’t super fast or heavy on obsec units. the army doesn’t have a ton of secondary play, I do not suggest taking to the last like the article suggests. I think it’s fine with a different playstyle but I personally love suicide charging deffkoptas into stuff once I can afford to do so and it is often a “win more” secondary.

To be clear though, just like freebooterz, this army wins because it stops your opponent from scoring, not because it scores well. It sucks at playing the mission compared to most armies but is so fast and so hard to kill if you’re careful. Focus praetors against custodes, then try to kill anything that lets them play the mission. ignore dreads unless there isn’t a different better target, all flavors of tanks.

Another thing worth mentioning is that I fly my wazboms off the board deliberately all the time. If I go first and can hide the rest of my army vs a praetor bubble with a magnifica, they’re off the board for sure. If I go second and it’s a non dawn of war mission usually I can set up in a way so that the salvos can’t reach me. If it’s a dawn of war I usually don’t keep them in reserve but would considering doing so against certain matchups.

Try to either give your opponent so many targets they don’t know what to shoot (if you’ve hurt them enough that you’re not worried about being tabled in a shooting phase), or prioritize hiding everything over killing. In-between is the worst. Chip damage through kopta hit and runs followed by a big everyone shoots/charges t3 and hopes there’s not much left after is how most games go

Found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/soggf2/comment/hw9suy4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Well done Jidmah!

I find his insight on secondaries very interesting - there is way too little talk about these thoughts.

 Jidmah wrote:
I find his insight on secondaries very interesting - there is way too little talk about these thoughts.

Yes and yes.

And it' s first Ork Speedfreak list without Squigbuggies since the last summer.

 Tomsug wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I find his insight on secondaries very interesting - there is way too little talk about these thoughts.

Yes and yes.

And it' s first Ork Speedfreak list without Squigbuggies since the last summer.

I think in general people are going to move away from Squigbuggies, especially multiple Squigbuggies due to the cost increase. They offer pretty good odds of damaging your target from outside of LOS, at the cost of being the most expensive buggy by a large margin.

Consider the humble Deffkopta. It too stands a pretty good chance of wounding whatever it hits, and is fast enough in both its base movement and it's various deep strike shenanigans that it may as well have outside of LOS shooting. It also has the potential for lots of damage output in the charge and fight phase thanks to its respectable melee profile and strats like attack out of da sun. And you get two of these for every one Squigbuggy, with change.

A Nitro Squigs Rukkatrukk is worthwhile if you've got a free slot, but I personally think the Scrapjet and the Deffkopta are better general toolbox units. Especially with things like warbikers eating up the other FA slots, it's getting edged out by these toolboxes.


TL;DR
Slots are finite in Speed Freek lists and the cheaper toolbox units are being taken over the more expensive Rukkatrukk.