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 Grimskul wrote:
Yikes, according to the recent rumours for the new Nephilim Chapter Approved changes to CP, we are not only halving to 6 CP to start (and 1 CP per player turn), but we no longer get free relic/WL trait at the start of the game, we have to pay starting CP for it.Yikes, that is some BAD news. Especially for armies like Orks that rely on good relics for our herohammer, this not only makes taking multiple warbosses a pain in the arse, but making them even more CP intensive than they already are? Whelp, guess more Tempest of War it is for me, what a joke.

Yeah, I've already run a couple of games with these changes in mind. Tried to field a single battallion with no more than 2CPs invested pre-game, a pretty typical Goffs army. Of course single warboss. I've done terribly both times but I'm used to play Freebooterz speedwaaagh based lists which are extremely different so it might just be me, in part at least. It seems it's time to max out the elites, which is something I've never done with orks.

Also I have no idea about the impact those changes will have on some other armies, except on my second force which is Space Wolves and anyting similar. They can easily ignore those upcoming changes, just like many SM armies I think or any faction that doesn't need multiple detachments and pre-game strats to work.

What's the list you were running?

This feels like a move not intended to balance the game but to push people into fielding SC HQs instead of generic ones which aren't as reliant on relics and WLTs to perform well (the ones worth considering anyways). As in, this is a sales tactic and not a game balance move.

 Blackie wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Yikes, according to the recent rumours for the new Nephilim Chapter Approved changes to CP, we are not only halving to 6 CP to start (and 1 CP per player turn), but we no longer get free relic/WL trait at the start of the game, we have to pay starting CP for it.Yikes, that is some BAD news. Especially for armies like Orks that rely on good relics for our herohammer, this not only makes taking multiple warbosses a pain in the arse, but making them even more CP intensive than they already are? Whelp, guess more Tempest of War it is for me, what a joke.

Yeah, I've already run a couple of games with these changes in mind. Tried to field a single battallion with no more than 2CPs invested pre-game, a pretty typical Goffs army. Of course single warboss. I've done terribly both times but I'm used to play Freebooterz speedwaaagh based lists which are extremely different so it might just be me, in part at least. It seems it's time to max out the elites, which is something I've never done with orks.

Also I have no idea about the impact those changes will have on some other armies, except on my second force which is Space Wolves and anyting similar. They can easily ignore those upcoming changes, just like many SM armies I think or any faction that doesn't need multiple detachments and pre-game strats to work.

Changes to be confirmed, it doesn't look good for us.

Pretty bad already, played this week against 1k sons. New marine armour rule plus dust armour is insane, add cover and basically you need ap-3 to start reducing their save.

Their termis on cover are unshiftable. Wazboom with -3ap only takes them down to 3+ save.

Lately I have been playing freebota AoR but with WTC tables is a nightmare to handle. Would like to play more offensive to CC but we lack real shock troops, closest are meganobs with compare badly to termis.

Same here. Playing against TS or deathwing is just no fun, you have to into extreme lengths to actually kill single squads and even BBK warboss with kill klaw just bounces of terminators with little to nothing to show for its investment.

I actually switched in a beastboss for my buggy list now, because a speedwaaagh is just a waste of time in a marine-heavy meta.

 Jidmah wrote:
Same here. Playing against TS or deathwing is just no fun, you have to into extreme lengths to actually kill single squads and even BBK warboss with kill klaw just bounces of terminators with little to nothing to show for its investment.

I actually switched in a beastboss for my buggy list now, because a speedwaaagh is just a waste of time in a marine-heavy meta.

Problem is, not even buggies give some sort of feeling of return to investment. Rukkatrukk dead. Sanzzwagon dead. Dragstas dead. KBB okeyish. Scrapjests okeysish again due to rokkit being ap2.
Koptas are only good if boomboys on AoR, otherwise, expensive.
Bikers on paper are good, but ap 0-1 makes them irrelevant outside of trade units.

Overall, the biggest drag is throwing 60 dices for 1 sad wound. It feels aweful .

In my experience snazzwagon and scrapjet are pretty much on the same level, SJD is still decent because of its primary weapon and the saws.

Koptas are still OK because their high rate of fire, but they simply can't kill terminators anymore because AoC halved number of unsaved wounds against such units - which essentially leaves me with no units that can target terminators efficiently besides a 200 point flier.

Warbikers have become completely useless to me - I replaced all of them with squig riders.

However, the result isn't really an army that can win against players on the same level as me. I'll play around with goff a bit, but since their list really doesn't fit my playstyle, I'll probably be placing a lot of DG until something changes. Orks are just now fun right now :(

For us to stay relevant, I think it's going to be MW spam from here on in.

We just don't have the firepower anymore otherwise.

There's also the toss-up between Goffs and Blood Axes to discuss, and I mention Blood Axes purely for the Thinkin' Kap.

Goffs obviously makes us hit harder straight out of the box, but Blood Axes allows some more wiggle room for strats.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
For us to stay relevant, I think it's going to be MW spam from here on in.

We just don't have the firepower anymore otherwise.

Not really an option for me - I played a list very similar to the one in the tournament, but not only doesn't it work too well other missions types, it also very much leaves a "feels bad" taste with the opponents when you essentially cripple their army by spamming a badly though-out piece of wargear to delete all their characters and durable elites.

With our troops choices being so lackluster, and us being so reliant on multiple bosses, and our FA and Elites slots, I don't see how we reasonably run a force that's a single battalion that can still compete.

I'm honestly just considering starting every game with 0CP and hoping for the best.

The Blood Axe list is entirely reliant on having specific terrain. If you don't have that terrain you will die.

For Goffs I'm thinking battalion + supreme command.

 Dendarien wrote:
The Blood Axe list is entirely reliant on having specific terrain. If you don't have that terrain you will die.

For Goffs I'm thinking battalion + supreme command.

Going for Ghaz + massed Squighogs + massed kommandos?

My only issue with the Battalion is that our troops suck. Trukkboys are okay at best, and Snaggas kind of force you to take Rigs for transport.

I'm going to tinker with a Goffs list, moving away from Blood Axes. Link to the list is spoilered below.

Goff can probably get away with kill/hunta rigs and beast snaggas boyz, as those are the only troops which can at least somewhat put a dent in things.

 Jidmah wrote:
Goff can probably get away with kill/hunta rigs and beast snaggas boyz, as those are the only troops which can at least somewhat put a dent in things.

My Trukkboys are just something to provide a ride for my Dakka Mek, otherwise they're a fast moving speedbump

I'll admit, Goff Snaggas are fairly good if they get to charge.

I'm definitely just bitter at this point. All these boys I've accrued over the years and no decent way of using them.

Most of the matches I would rather use blood axes than goffs. Goffs used to be overkill, while BA allows for retreat and charge (forget about cover). Most opponents can't screen effectively back units when all your army can disengage at will.

Also, it is the clan with more strats and they redeployment trait can sometimes save bad deployment choices, sad it was change to before the roll as most armies with similar rules do it after.

Yeah, I think that's the greatest sin for all the changes we've been hit with in 9th. If things were largely left alone with minor changes like the flyer restriction and shifting the buggies to being 3 models max per buggy type in an army, it would have been fine, because we at least had different army archetypes besides just Green Tide (as much as I would like that to be viable, even if its a different format). But things have just been snowballing with blanket meta-warping changes like AoC, the restrictions from having multi-klan armies, and now the CP alterations to making Orks feel like we're playing with both arms tied behind our backs. Half the time most of our games are us desperately trying to score objectives before dying and getting either tabled or crushed, which really doesn't reflect any kind of Orky playstyle. We don't have the durability, nor the numbers, nor the killiness anymore. I'm about ready for a new edition and our codex isn't even a full year old yet!

Well, I 'm not that pesimistic.

1. GW made us in last few years 2 new codexes and couple of extension books. Plus they gave us a tons of new models

- 4 brand new buggies + watrike
- New boyz + new snagga boyz
- Bunch of new characters most of them was not on the table yet
- new huge Killrigs
- brand new type of unit - squig cavalry in all range - boy riders, nob character and squig boss in 2 variations.
- re-edition of Kommandos and Deffkoptas

That is a lot guys. That is a lot of work, money, pation and love someone in GW gave us in last few years.

There are some competitive pricks who do not respect orks. That is right. But say GW ignore orks is a fail.

2. Blood Axes are now the only Clan having much more thanks to some extra book. Why just a single clan? Especialy, why not the Snakebites? Make a whole new range of the models in Snakebite style and no extension for them?

3. GW is company doing business. This business has a logic. If you invest the money and work to something, you want the money back.

There was a new codex in 8th with the new buggies. It was November 2018. First wave of “buy buggies because they are new!” What makes Buggies great on the table was Saga of the Beast - March 2020. So call it year and half. That was another wave of “buy buggies” becuase it was fine to play them. And than summer 2021 - almost year and half too - and the new codex for even more buggies + half year later comes the Speedwaaagh. These were 3(4) waves of motivation to buy a new buggies.

This is how to sell the new models.

Now there are the Dynos. Sorry, squigs.
How to sell them?

Criple them to be unplayable?

Hardly.

We are in Stage 1 - buy because “new”. The fact we are pretty doomed in June2022 is just temporary situation that can last few months.

My prediction is some extension for squigs comming to our hands like a year and half after release of the Beast Snagga Box = winter 2022 = Stage 2

And than another with the new codex somewhere 2023-24 = Stage 3

We will be +/- competitive for another two years with some ups and downs at least. And some rule feth-ups of course.
Than comes the “paint the stompas time” with nothing for us that will last like a 3 years to makes us to buy another army to be competitive. Like Tau or Imperial Guard suffered recently and Space Marines suffers now.

And than again for another 40.000 years….

That is the power of the money.

Some my tip for now is keep calm, practice and paint the squigs.

Orks primarily have spammed AP1 and/or 2D weapons for our "powerful units" rather than hitting harder with fewer attacks.
The spammed -1 damage mechanic alone pissed me off, felt like unless it was a KMB or Rokkit it didnt do anything without forcing 15+ saves for a medium health target.

The marine bs made me not even wanna play orks anymore, since 90% of my opponents were affected by that buff.
Feel like without practically buying a whole new army i only have 3-4 units that have better than AP1 weapons outside of the random PK nob.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Orks primarily have spammed AP1 and/or 2D weapons for our "powerful units" rather than hitting harder with fewer attacks.
The spammed -1 damage mechanic alone pissed me off, felt like unless it was a KMB or Rokkit it didnt do anything without forcing 15+ saves for a medium health target.

The marine bs made me not even wanna play orks anymore, since 90% of my opponents were affected by that buff.
Feel like without practically buying a whole new army i only have 3-4 units that have better than AP1 weapons outside of the random PK nob.

Pretty much, we've always been pigeonholed into the "quantity over quality" for a lot of our weapons (nothing wrong with that if it actually made up for our bad BS), and up until 8th, the power klaw was really one of our only "quality" weapons that we were able to sneak in. Now that's been outpaced by the arms race of weapons and damage reduction abilities.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
What's the list you were running?

Off the top of my head:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Orks primarily have spammed AP1 and/or 2D weapons for our "powerful units" rather than hitting harder with fewer attacks.
The spammed -1 damage mechanic alone pissed me off, felt like unless it was a KMB or Rokkit it didnt do anything without forcing 15+ saves for a medium health target.

The marine bs made me not even wanna play orks anymore, since 90% of my opponents were affected by that buff.
Feel like without practically buying a whole new army i only have 3-4 units that have better than AP1 weapons outside of the random PK nob.

Pretty much, we've always been pigeonholed into the "quantity over quality" for a lot of our weapons (nothing wrong with that if it actually made up for our bad BS), and up until 8th, the power klaw was really one of our only "quality" weapons that we were able to sneak in. Now that's been outpaced by the arms race of weapons and damage reduction abilities.

I found that with Freebooterz and Speedwaaagh a shooting oriented army can really deal a lot of damage with their improved BS and AP. Such lists rely on tons of CPs though: they need to burn at least 3 CPs for an outrider, a few CPs for additional relics/traits and then to save up a few other CPs for exploding the KFF and for the cloud of smoke stratagem to make the units hold the first turn and be not too crippled when the speedwaaagh is triggered.

The power klaws have been completely re-written. They used to be a tool to instant kill stuff even with a single blow, now they slightly increase the damage output of a unit.

I really don't see us triggering freebootas against a marine army - if everything is in cover, you are looking at shooting half your army into a squad before downing anything.

Killing a 3-5 man squad with 1-2 wazboms and 1-2 KMKs can be done pretty easily. It doesn't take more than 500 points of stuff, but it can be done with less. Even if they are SM. Most other stuff, like squads of sororitas or aeldari are easier to kill. I think custodes are much harder to kill, even without AoC.

And later in the game enemy units could be reduced in number so easier to kill, although there are also orks casualties to consider.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Orks primarily have spammed AP1 and/or 2D weapons for our "powerful units" rather than hitting harder with fewer attacks.
The spammed -1 damage mechanic alone pissed me off, felt like unless it was a KMB or Rokkit it didnt do anything without forcing 15+ saves for a medium health target.

The marine bs made me not even wanna play orks anymore, since 90% of my opponents were affected by that buff.
Feel like without practically buying a whole new army i only have 3-4 units that have better than AP1 weapons outside of the random PK nob.

Totaly agree except “marines made me not even wanna play orks” and thanks for the evidence my contemplation about basic mechanic driving the destiny of our rules is obviously right and works well


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
I really don't see us triggering freebootas against a marine army - if everything is in cover, you are looking at shooting half your army into a squad before downing anything.

Non Speed-Mob Freeboota army in da old style (autumn 2021) where you need to trigger +1 to hit to do something was the most stupid and annoying list I played in last couple of years. It was de-facto sitting castle that was mostly imobile (because 10-12” with buggy base and squad of more than 1 buggy definitely cannot be called “speedwaagh” - the “blocked-by-the-corner-waagh” is better) and need to sit together to have the KFF aura to have some invu.

You said when the new codex came out, that agiants some armies it will be pain to trogger it. Now, the situation is even more dramatic.

That is the reason, why I believe the only fun way how to play buggies is the Speed Mob.

The Speed Mob army rely on two basic tactics. Shoot what can be killed and roadblock what cannot be killed. Speedmob is pretty good in both - shooting and roadblocking. Mostly because his “free advance” and inbuilt invu. That shoot it' s mobility to the stars.

I agree that triggering Freeboota +1 to hit is sometimes pretty hard. Especialy, if your main anti-AOC weapon are Boomboyz Deffkoptas that cannot trigger it. But in Speedmob, it is not such an issue, because

- no more than two planes can benefit. If yout take some…
- you take Freebootas becuase the banner, that makes a swing of 3-6 VP (= 6-12VP difference) every game.

I’m not that pessimistic yet.. want to see new secondaries and point changes… I think orks might get some slight love… I don’t expect us to be anywhere winning tournaments again but it’s pretty bad right now being one of if not the worst 9th edition codex and only ~3 armies left that need a new 9th codex

I' m actually very optimistic too. The reason is very simple. I know what is the immediata future of Speedwaagh - Nobz on bikes!

The reason? Simple!

I' ve got a great idea how to convert them from regular bikers. I gonna makes them like Rey' s speeder but the esthetic of the front engine part will be more like an old farm tractor incl. Small “chimney” and two lights. That will be great!

I am also positive as well. While i have no doubts it will change how we build list, the Free relic/WLT is big.

It will also curb armies that have super turns by dumping mass CP. So our stuff won't pop as easily.

On the other hand i am concerned with the CP from psychic interrogation, considering our leadership we can be farmed with some ease.

Another thing that comes to mind is BA are more interesting as a kulture for those that like CP.

The last bit is my prediction, a bit grain of salt, but i believe the biggest winners will be armies with abilities backed in that do not need CP, i hear Ultramarines have tons of that but i know nothing of the hummies.

Right. So i went to a team GT with a goff pressure list.

Needless to say, i wont be doing that again any time soon. Yikes.

Got my ass handed to me.

Forceride wrote:It will also curb armies that have super turns by dumping mass CP. So our stuff won't pop as easily.

Snip

The last bit is my prediction, a bit grain of salt, but i believe the biggest winners will be armies with abilities backed in that do not need CP, i hear Ultramarines have tons of that but i know nothing of the hummies.

This is definitely going to be the case. On one side we won't be getting wombo-comboed any more, but on the other side the armies that don't need to combo will get way stronger.

Beardedragon wrote:Right. So i went to a team GT with a goff pressure list.

Needless to say, i wont be doing that again any time soon. Yikes.

Got my ass handed to me.

What was your list? And what were your match ups like?

 Afrodactyl wrote:

Forceride wrote:It will also curb armies that have super turns by dumping mass CP. So our stuff won't pop as easily.

Snip

The last bit is my prediction, a bit grain of salt, but i believe the biggest winners will be armies with abilities backed in that do not need CP, i hear Ultramarines have tons of that but i know nothing of the hummies.

This is definitely going to be the case. On one side we won't be getting wombo-comboed any more, but on the other side the armies that don't need to combo will get way stronger.

Beardedragon wrote:Right. So i went to a team GT with a goff pressure list.

Needless to say, i wont be doing that again any time soon. Yikes.

Got my ass handed to me.

What was your list? And what were your match ups like?

Ill be putting the list and match ups in spoilers below.
My list was:


Play through:


All in all i dont feel like i HAD to lose against drukhari nor genestealer cults. I think i could have won. Knowledge wins many battles, and i have only fought drukhari once, and genestealers zero times, so i had very little knowledge against those two. And Tyranids, well the only time ive fought against the new codex was the opening battle that day against the new player i tabled. But i feel like my list lacks units that i can find acceptable to lose. I had kind of told my self that trukk boy mega nobz wouldnt be too good, because it was easy to shut down the trukk and make them kultureless and footslogging, and even afterwards they have too many misses by hitting on 4s, but maybe trukkboy MANZ are still good i dont know. I feel generally that tyranids pay around 30% too little for their units, and i pay 30% too much for mine. Like in the tyranid match up, there were 10 hormagaunts, 5 or so genestealers, and 2x 10 gargoyles + 3 warriors. This was not difficult to remove but it was standing in the way, forcing me to go through them, just to be counter charged afterwards. While i killed the first genestealers turn 1, i had to move up to get to his frontline turn 2, which gave him 1 turn of destroying my units before getting there. And after i had chewed through that frontline with me charging most of it (failing to kill the warriors with what little i had left of the first initial charge), i was killed in return by the monsters just charging from the backline or psychic powers or shot off the table. Unlike tyranids, i dont feel like we have a codex where we can send in chaff, and then come with heavy hitters like monster bugs. I feel like if i had had 40 extra beast snagga boyz then maybe this would seem like a fair battle but alas.

The one unit i do feel like pulled their weight when i didnt get them killed by not being obscurred by shooting or what, was my squig riders. They did well. 4 of them with +1 to wound took down a malaceptor so that was neat. However, i rolled mostly 2s on the bomb squigs in general so i didnt really get anything out of them as they constantly missed. I think out of all the 4 games i played, i threw maybe 9 squig bombs, and 6 of those were 2+.

And while Deffkoptas in a speedfreeks army is really invaluable, and ive had decent success with them in this match up as well, i feel like, if you get hit by -1 to hit (and there was a lot of that), then hitting on those 6s with rokkits essentially results in me getting 1-2 hits out of every volley from each unit, which tended to result in no damage at all. And we used WTC styled terrain i believe, so we had a lot of dense terrain (more than i recall from my last tournament).

The deffkoptas when i use it in a goff style tends to die the turn after they are deployed (they always started in deepstrike), and a leadership of 6 on both those and squig riders should honestly be considered some kind of mistake. Would it really kill GW to give squig riders leadership 7 and the same for deffkoptas? I mean you DO pay 50 points per deffkopta. How many other armies lose 100 points to morale? We do by rolling a 6 and 1 because 1 deffkopta died.. Ghaz, while being great at my single player GT last time, didnt really do much this time around. In fact, it sounds stupid but my warboss on warbike was also kind of out played. Both him and ghaz had a hard time finding proper targets due to the amount of terrain on the table. It was easy for my opponents to just block off entrances, and everytime i cracked open one entrance and awaited my boss on bike or ghaz to enter my turn after, another unit had just taken the place of the dead ones before.

The over all problem with my list was that being goffs, i had a focus on kill games, and my enemy, whether they had a decent focus on CC or not, still had plenty of shooting to force me to come to him. that tended to give him around 2 rounds of shooting which my list just cant take.

I am fully open for suggestions to making a better Goff pressure list because i seem to be a bit out of ideas. WHAT exactly encompasses a good goff pressure list? Whats the best one currently meta wise? Because i feel like im leaning towards the speed freeks kind of play style here.

Beardedragon wrote:

The over all problem with my list was that being goffs, i had a focus on kill games, and my enemy, whether they had a decent focus on CC or not, still had plenty of shooting to force me to come to him. that tended to give him around 2 rounds of shooting which my list just cant take.

I am fully open for suggestions to making a better Goff pressure list because i seem to be a bit out of ideas. WHAT exactly encompasses a good goff pressure list? Whats the best one currently meta wise? Because i feel like im leaning towards the speed freeks kind of play style here.

I don't think there's much to do until we get some of AoC like buff (whatever that is), or massive points drops.

We just don't have enough stuff to fight good armies, and our shooting is too gimpable unless you go 2000 points of it. But it's very hard to win some matchups without a good shooting phase.

This will just get worse in the Nephilim pack. Herohammer for Orks is done, and good luck bringing multiple detachments to get those sweet, sweet FA slots.

Just have fun. C tier army isn't going to win many games.