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Depends. If it's an original design used as a proxy then sure but not if it's a printout of a 3d scan of a regular model.
3d scanning technology really isn't there to create anything close to what you're describing. If you've seen 3d printed models that are 'exact replicas' of gw models, they're basically not ever something where a guy took a model and popped it in a box or waved a wand at it and got a scanned copy. What they're doing is using an existing model as a reference, and using a digital sculpting program to make a replica - typically not actually an exact replica.
In fact, most often I see the things people point out as 'exact replicas and therefore piracy that should not be allowed' as presenting me as a modeler with something that I couldn't actually purchase from Games Workshop.
For example, Games Workshop only sells Wracks in 5 poses, which are all standing, or walking slowly forward, all with their arms down at their sides, all of them male. If I want wracks doing anything else, I bascally have to sculpt my own miniatures because i'd have to be reposing the torso and legs that are wearing robes, so they're a big solid chunk - it's not something you can do with a bit of "legal, A-OK purchasing extra GWTM models TM and cutting and chopping and screwing them"
They also only sell Eldar guardians that are standing stock-stationary, in unnatural looking horse riding poses, with giant ugly mold lines right up the butt crack and across the shoulders. If I care about that aesthetic detail, and I do, then a 3rd party modeler who made something similar to a Guardian but, to me, far better and more natural looking, I'm not simply paying them less for the same product I would otherwise have purchased from Games Workshop. I'm paying them for something I've AVOIDED paying games workshop for for years, because the games workshop 'geniune article' always has looked like trash to me.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I do wonder if 3D printing models is set to become a hobby unto itself.
Me? I love assembling kits. I find it immensely satisfying, even with swapping bits around to do even basic conversions. Yes some 3D prints are a collection of parts, but to my mind at least it’s just not quite the same.
it most definitely already has.
I completely understand the joy in assembling kits - the main problem im having presently is that it appears to be a joy GW is incredibly intent on removing for me. I love having a little pile of legs, a litlte pile of heads, a little pile of arms and bodies and deciding how I want MY guys to look, with a healthy dose of spare bits from my bits box. But, if that pleasure is removed by GW making kits that only go together one way, the joy of the things that I can do digitally that I can't do physically - like rigging up a model with virtual joints so i can perfectly manipulate it into the exact pose I want it to have - become more obvious.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/31 16:07:30
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
It’ll depend on who organised the event, and who is sponsoring it.
GW are “notoriously tough” on only allowing their own models to be used on their own turf. Be it your local store, Warhammer World or a tournament GW put on elsewhere.
That’s…not at all unusual. Like. At all. The quick analogy is picking up your Burger King, then expecting to be able to eat it in the McDonalds across the road. They won’t have it, because those resources are for their customers.
So it’s not some kind of heavy handed bully boy behaviour. It’s just basic marketing and that.
If GW are sponsoring an otherwise independent event? They might well have a “yeah but our models only” clause as part of the sponsorship agreement.
If it’s entirely independent? Take it up with the organiser, just respect that their word, for whatever reasons might be behind it, is final. Their show, their rules.
If they do allow it, nobody who bought their army from the source really has an excuse to get salty, unless the 3D printed imitations are modelled for advantage (such as say, Imperial Knight analogues an inch and a half shorter than the retail one). Because just as someone who wants to use 3D printed analogues has no right to be salty if they’re told no, you can’t get salty going into an event knowing it’s a yes to 3D printed analogues.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I completely understand the joy in assembling kits - the main problem im having presently is that it appears to be a joy GW is incredibly intent on removing for me. I love having a little pile of legs, a litlte pile of heads, a little pile of arms and bodies and deciding how I want MY guys to look, with a healthy dose of spare bits from my bits box. But, if that pleasure is removed by GW making kits that only go together one way. . .
If they do allow it, nobody who bought their army from the source really has an excuse to get salty, unless the 3D printed imitations are modelled for advantage (such as say, Imperial Knight analogues an inch and a half shorter than the retail one). Because just as someone who wants to use 3D printed analogues has no right to be salty if they’re told no, you can’t get salty going into an event knowing it’s a yes to 3D printed analogues.
How do they check it though? If the models are painted they look the same FW models look, and judges are not allowed to damage or dissassemble models just to check if they are made from GW resin or something else.
I can imagine it being a problem if someone turns up at a GW sponsored even with an army full of Kromlech or Artel models or parts. But otherwise if someone doesn't brag about it himself, the orgenisers can't really do much about it. I mean they can't just start weighting models, specially when models have scenic bases or have magnets and pins to keep them whole.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
How do they check it though? If the models are painted they look the same FW models look, and judges are not allowed to damage or dissassemble models just to check if they are made from GW resin or something else.
How do they check? Easy. REAL FW models are warped.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/31 17:46:50
If they do allow it, nobody who bought their army from the source really has an excuse to get salty, unless the 3D printed imitations are modelled for advantage (such as say, Imperial Knight analogues an inch and a half shorter than the retail one). Because just as someone who wants to use 3D printed analogues has no right to be salty if they’re told no, you can’t get salty going into an event knowing it’s a yes to 3D printed analogues.
How do they check it though? If the models are painted they look the same FW models look, and judges are not allowed to damage or dissassemble models just to check if they are made from GW resin or something else.
I can imagine it being a problem if someone turns up at a GW sponsored even with an army full of Kromlech or Artel models or parts. But otherwise if someone doesn't brag about it himself, the orgenisers can't really do much about it. I mean they can't just start weighting models, specially when models have scenic bases or have magnets and pins to keep them whole.
They can't check for it aside from looking at the model. If someone showed up with a 3D printed model that looks and feels identical to a GW model, GW's employees/volunteers would have no way to tell.
Some 3D prints are very close to being at that level. Right now you're more likely to skate by with a resin recast than a 3D printed model.
No it doesn't. Saying that 3D printing is akin to piracy is like saying PDF files are akin to piracy because some people use them to pirate documents.
3D printing is a method, nothing more.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: GW are “notoriously tough” on only allowing their own models to be used on their own turf. Be it your local store, Warhammer World or a tournament GW put on elsewhere.
That’s…not at all unusual. Like. At all. The quick analogy is picking up your Burger King, then expecting to be able to eat it in the McDonalds across the road. They won’t have it, because those resources are for their customers.
So it’s not some kind of heavy handed bully boy behaviour. It’s just basic marketing and that.
Well, I'm sorry, but GW is going to have to get with the program quick-smart if they want to avoid falling behind.
For my Primaris Marines I'm going to get custom shoulder pads for them with my Chapter's icon. They'll be 3D printed. To GW this is a big no-no, but that only shows how stupid/stupidly out of touch they are. It's not like the models are 3D printed - they're still all GW kits - but they don't make the one thing I need to complete them: proper shoulder pads.
They want to act like it's some big infringement and violation of their policy to do that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: When a large model is my hypothetical inch and a half shorter than the retail?
And you think the people making these 3D printed files haven't tested them for scale against the real thing?
You think someone's going to show up with a Contemptor that's somehow 10% larger than a real one and wonder "How did I not notice?".
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/08/31 23:22:51
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: When a large model is my hypothetical inch and a half shorter than the retail?
And you think the people making these 3D printed files haven't tested them for scale against the real thing?
You think someone's going to show up with a Contemptor that's somehow 10% larger than a real one and wonder "How did I not notice?".
*cough*....It might be the most common thing I feth up, lol. my first successful print is now known as "The Swole Gobbo" because he's a head taller lol.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: *cough*....It might be the most common thing I feth up, lol. my first successful print is now known as "The Swole Gobbo" because he's a head taller lol.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
Oh I'm sure the mistake gets made - there are now three 3D printers in my group, and I know another friend who has a 4th one and they've all made that mistake - but it's not like you're going to show up to a store with your giant grot and pretend there's nothing wrong.
the_scotsman wrote: *cough*....It might be the most common thing I feth up, lol. my first successful print is now known as "The Swole Gobbo" because he's a head taller lol.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
Oh I'm sure the mistake gets made - there are now three 3D printers in my group, and I know another friend who has a 4th one and they've all made that mistake - but it's not like you're going to show up to a store with your giant grot and pretend there's nothing wrong.
What are you talking about: of COURSE there is nothing wrong! That grot is just SWOLE! Body positivity, yo ;-)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: GW are “notoriously tough” on only allowing their own models to be used on their own turf. Be it your local store, Warhammer World or a tournament GW put on elsewhere.
That’s…not at all unusual. Like. At all. The quick analogy is picking up your Burger King, then expecting to be able to eat it in the McDonalds across the road. They won’t have it, because those resources are for their customers.
So it’s not some kind of heavy handed bully boy behaviour. It’s just basic marketing and that.
Well, I'm sorry, but GW is going to have to get with the program quick-smart if they want to avoid falling behind.
For my Primaris Marines I'm going to get custom shoulder pads for them with my Chapter's icon. They'll be 3D printed. To GW this is a big no-no, but that only shows how stupid/stupidly out of touch they are. It's not like the models are 3D printed - they're still all GW kits - but they don't make the one thing I need to complete them: proper shoulder pads.
They want to act like it's some big infringement and violation of their policy to do that.
Exactly. If I've already purchased gw models, but I want to add bits that gw doesn't make, what's the problem? Gw doesn't make what I want, they've already got my $$$ for the models, if they made those shoulder pads, or helmets, or whatever, I'd get them from them. But they don't. They've lost nothing. It's like GMC complaining about me adding custom wheels to my truck. I've already purchased the models, I can do what I want with them. I can understand gw not wanting people using knock offs of entire models, but bits?
Maybe this should be like bike moding. Most of the big companies like the fact, that people are upgrading and rebuilding the originals. In fact some pride themselfs on the fact, that they have a fan following which uses their products as a a base for personal projects.
Why couldn't GW say make money out of the fact that they make an army or armies, which are popular, because there is a ton of mods and upgrades kits for them, being done by the fans.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
Should print a little car for him just to complete the meme.
the_scotsman wrote: *cough*....It might be the most common thing I feth up, lol. my first successful print is now known as "The Swole Gobbo" because he's a head taller lol.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
Oh I'm sure the mistake gets made - there are now three 3D printers in my group, and I know another friend who has a 4th one and they've all made that mistake - but it's not like you're going to show up to a store with your giant grot and pretend there's nothing wrong.
oh, that grot actually has a special rule where nobody else in the squad fights, and The Swole Gobbo makes a bonus melee attack for every other gretchin in the unit that's within Engagement Range of an enemy model because he's showing off.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: Maybe this should be like bike moding. Most of the big companies like the fact, that people are upgrading and rebuilding the originals. In fact some pride themselfs on the fact, that they have a fan following which uses their products as a a base for personal projects.
Why couldn't GW say make money out of the fact that they make an army or armies, which are popular, because there is a ton of mods and upgrades kits for them, being done by the fans.
No reason. In fact, they COULD have embraced customization kits and modding, and put out some kind of legal guide to 3rd party designers like
-replacement parts, so long as they do not replace the entire legs and torso of the original model, are allowable
-whole figures that come close enough to our IP to allow legal action will result in the model creator being served C+D and takedown notices
-replacement parts that adhere to the first clause but violate such and such a community policy (i.e. no models we consider 'harmful to our brand image' like swastika armband guardsman arms) will still be pursued legally
That would actually have allowed GW to AVOID several of the issues with their kits theyve historically run into, such as niche appeal sub-factions that they'd like to support but which aren't financially viable for them (guard regiments) and kit limitations where they often want a unit to have a bunch of different options but only have sprue space to fit one or even none of those weapons on the sprue.
Make it clear that third party designers either 100% toe the line, or 100% will face legal action against their entire business, so you don't get an eternal pushing of boundaries, and people stick to weapon options and aesthetic variants, and you'd absolutely have a nice, healthy market of niche third party creators basically enhancing what you can do with GW's model kits, which would drive sales toward GW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/01 12:15:20
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
cody.d. wrote: Okay, so what about the digital equivalent? Table Top Simulator. Do you think GW is going to crack down on that sooner or later?
I could see GW trying to crack down on the use of their models images in that yeah.
They might wait to see if it dies down on its own as countries open back up following vaccination and people get back to being able to play physically.
No reason. In fact, they COULD have embraced customization kits and modding, and put out some kind of legal guide to 3rd party designers like
Yeah like, no real life political stuff and other stuff that break what ever they think should break the ToS. I have no idea why they aren't doing it. The sales of bikes, and I think also cars. Don't drop just because there are groups of people that love to mod their stuff.
They could even be very precise about the stuff. Whole models not okey. Parts of models, like heads, shoulders , could be okey. The mod stuff would have to be self made, no cloning of a GW shoulder pad and puting a glyph on it calling it ones own design. Otherwise we get those wierd situations we have now, where someone with self made purity seal stamps is a scurge on the hobby. While someone who buys space elfs from Artel or Teutonic Space Knights from Kromlech is just fine.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
No reason. In fact, they COULD have embraced customization kits and modding, and put out some kind of legal guide to 3rd party designers like
Yeah like, no real life political stuff and other stuff that break what ever they think should break the ToS. I have no idea why they aren't doing it. The sales of bikes, and I think also cars. Don't drop just because there are groups of people that love to mod their stuff.
They could even be very precise about the stuff. Whole models not okey. Parts of models, like heads, shoulders , could be okey. The mod stuff would have to be self made, no cloning of a GW shoulder pad and puting a glyph on it calling it ones own design. Otherwise we get those wierd situations we have now, where someone with self made purity seal stamps is a scurge on the hobby. While someone who buys space elfs from Artel or Teutonic Space Knights from Kromlech is just fine.
I'll be honest I dont actually see why cloning a GW shoulderpad and putting a glyph on it would actually harm gw in any way. As long as you can only buy the torso and legs from GW, you still gotta psend the exact same money even if you use zero shoulderpads from GW in the finished product. You can't buy 1/2 of a box of intercessors, GW gets the same money either way.
And unlike the situation with scalpers, rather than getting negative press and making money, GW gets to be 'new, better GW, under new management.' We KNOW how much people were DESPERATE to believe that with 8th edition, and "gw is a big legal bully that aggressively picks on the little guy" was part and parcel with their existing gakky reputation.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
It has been a long time since I participated in any tourneys. One such was at my FLGS, but all WHFB. Since GW has such a tight rein on the tourneys, models and rules, maybe with players wanting to use more kitbashing/printed models other places not under GW control will be forced to relax their rules to allow this flexibility - the print revolution has been coming and it is definitely here.
Again, just to point out, small things are allowed as long as they weren't made for profit (presumably this means don't get famous off your stuff and sell it).
As long as you aren't advertising yourself, it should be fine.
But if you rock up with an army that's 50% 3d printed models then you'll get told to leave an official GW event.
MDSW wrote: It has been a long time since I participated in any tourneys. One such was at my FLGS, but all WHFB. Since GW has such a tight rein on the tourneys, models and rules, maybe with players wanting to use more kitbashing/printed models other places not under GW control will be forced to relax their rules to allow this flexibility - the print revolution has been coming and it is definitely here.
Nowhere outside of GW involved events has any guidelines or rules for 3d printed models beyond the usual "proxies/conversions must be ok'd" caveat as a standard. There is no print revolution, there isn't a "3d printed army using another games rules" tournament, there aren't any events I'm aware of encouraging it or promoting it particularly.
If you're referring to "I want to play 40k using GW rules and my 3d printed almost if not identical facsimiles of 40k models because I like them but don't want to pay for them", that then strays into that IP infringement and eventual piracy situation. That revolution ends up in either a dead game and hence wasted your printed army and the game you love so much you had to print an army for never receiving updates again, or bans/legal action.
The game is never dead though because the rule set is already published and released.
Lots of you are grabbing the wrong end of the stick here.
3d printing is offering a way for small, independent sculptors to create interesting designs and receive fair compensation for it.
Gamers, in turn, have the option of browsing tons of different designs as ways to bring unique aesthetics to their armies which add variety and flavour to the social aspect of tabletop gaming.
Framing independent designers and sculptors as some kind of parasitic leech on the glory of GWs genius model design completely ignores the history of how GW itself established market dominance (through creating designs inspired by other fantasy and sci-fi ideas).
There are certainly some egregious offenders out there, but from where I sit the vast majority of indie 3d sculptors are creating inventive and awesome new designs. GW will of course get their lawyers barking to stomp that out because that makes good business sense.
40k will never, ever be a competitive e-sports streaming game. The rules are simply too garbage for large audiences of casual viewers to find it fun to watch. And so the scare tactic of "if you use 3d printed models you cannot play the official gw tournaments!" is completely toothless. Good riddance, honestly. Enjoy getting milked for every last penny you got from GW marketing.
If all of you want to drink the kool-aid and go suffer in the "GW models only meta", please feel free. Those tournaments are un-fun and lifeless (with rules such as your space marines cant be ultramarines unless you paint them with GW ultramarine blue!).
Knock yourselves out with that. For the rest of us, we will continue enjoying the designs produced by small and independent creators, and feel good in supporting indie craftworkers getting paid for a trade they love!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 14:28:07
Gregor Samsa wrote: The game is never dead though because the rule set is already published and released.
Lots of you are grabbing the wrong end of the stick here.
3d printing is offering a way for small, independent sculptors to create interesting designs and receive fair compensation for it.
Gamers, in turn, have the option of browsing tons of different designs as ways to bring unique aesthetics to their armies which add variety and flavour to the social aspect of tabletop gaming.
Framing independent designers and sculptors as some kind of parasitic leech on the glory of GWs genius model design completely ignores the history of how GW itself established market dominance (through creating designs inspired by other fantasy and sci-fi ideas).
There are certainly some egregious offenders out there, but from where I sit the vast majority of indie 3d sculptors are creating inventive and awesome new designs. GW will of course get their lawyers barking to stomp that out because that makes good business sense.
40k will never, ever be a competitive e-sports streaming game. The rules are simply too garbage for large audiences of casual viewers to find it fun to watch. And so the scare tactic of "if you use 3d printed models you cannot play the official gw tournaments!" is completely toothless. Good riddance, honestly. Enjoy getting milked for every last penny you got from GW marketing.
If all of you want to drink the kool-aid and go suffer in the "GW models only meta", please feel free. Those tournaments are un-fun and lifeless (with rules such as your space marines cant be ultramarines unless you paint them with GW ultramarine blue!).
Knock yourselves out with that. For the rest of us, we will continue enjoying the designs produced by small and independent creators, and feel good in supporting indie craftworkers getting paid for a trade they love!
That's a very confusing tirade.
You start off reasonably stating that 3d printing is a good way for lesser known sculptors and artists to receive notoriety and some pay, which is great. You've listed that adding character to an army or collection is good, all great so far.
We then segway to you making weird and wild accusations at faceless groups of people about stuff not relevant to the thread? It's perfectly fine for GW to host their events and to want you to use their models for their game. Don't like it? Don't go, seems simple, certainly not something to be angry at or even degrading to others about.
I just want to know which fictional group(s) you represent with your statements.
Edit: I'd hasten to add that yes it would be a dead game, you need opponents to play a game and people won't want to get involved in a game that isn't supported. You'll have a hard time finding a 5th ed opponent now for example and that's just an old edition of a currently successful game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/01 14:48:56
Edit: I'd hasten to add that yes it would be a dead game, you need opponents to play a game and people won't want to get involved in a game that isn't supported. You'll have a hard time finding a 5th ed opponent now for example and that's just an old edition of a currently successful game.
I suppose this might be a problem for those of you who lack friends. Or the ability to make friends. Or can't bring yourself to even speak to those you play with/others at the shop.
For the rest of us though? How often have you been talking to a fellow gamer at the shop & be it an RPG, minis game, or even some board game, someone's said something along the lines of "Yeah, I used to play ___. I still have my books/army/stuff up in the attic/storage/etc. Man, loved that game - but I haven't played that in ages. (fill in some reason)"
It's a pretty simple matter from that point to set up a game....
In the past few months? I've played Star Fleet Battles (some edition from the 90's), Flames of War 3e (the previous edition & substantially different from the current), Pathfinder 1e RPG (current is 2e) & WHFB3ed ed - a game that's not only technicaly oop (replaced by 3 editions of Sigmar), but 5! editions older than the most recent WHFB version.
Several years back the local shop ran a 1e D&D game. Those books went oop before most of the players involved were even born. Those new players didn't rely on us old guard to provide the books. They simply EBayed what they needed or got PDFs.
So if GW/40k died tomorrow? There'd be no problem getting games.
1) There's plenty of players heavily invested. Their stuff isn't going to just dissapear. They aren't simply going to chuck their stuff in the trash.
2) Real life XP leads me to expect that there'll be plenty who will have their books & minis for many years to come. We'll have plenty more of that "man, I used to play...." conversation in the coming decades.
3) Between Ebay etc, 3d printing, & PDFs? There'll never be a time that you won't be able to find the models/rules for whatever edition you all agree to play.
4) It's not that hard to draw in new players. All they need is to SEE games being played & people having fun.
the_scotsman wrote: *cough*....It might be the most common thing I feth up, lol. my first successful print is now known as "The Swole Gobbo" because he's a head taller lol.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
Oh I'm sure the mistake gets made - there are now three 3D printers in my group, and I know another friend who has a 4th one and they've all made that mistake - but it's not like you're going to show up to a store with your giant grot and pretend there's nothing wrong.
Again missed context from previous conversation.
My hypothetical inch and a half shorter Imperial Knight was in reference to people using 3D printing to model for advantage.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
ccs wrote: How often have you been talking to a fellow gamer at the shop & be it an RPG, minis game, or even some board game, someone's said something along the lines of "Yeah, I used to play ___. I still have my books/army/stuff up in the attic/storage/etc. Man, loved that game - but I haven't played that in ages. (fill in some reason)"
A couple of years ago I looked at getting back into Battlefleet Gothic. I browsed my options for minis, and found that they basically amounted to recasts or ridiculously priced eBay minis. And, of course, these are twenty year old sculpts, so the official Hive Ship is still rather uninspired and the Tyranid Cruiser is still rearranged Warrior bits.
A week ago I got the idea to revisit Battlefleet Gothic with my resin printer. I took 3D model files from Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 and printed them out, and I'm absolutely blown away by the results. Even with my suboptimal prints as I work out the best settings for this resin, the degree of detail here is amazing, as well as the ability to do undercuts (like all the little legs tucked under the Hive Ship) that could not be easily done with a conventional cast.
My wife likes the Eldar fleet, so I'm printing her some ships too. Why not? After all, it's only around a dollar or two worth of resin per print. If anyone else in my local group is interested in trying the game, I'll happily print them fleets as well. If I were to try to make adversarial fleets by buying models on eBay it would be a tremendous investment, but here it's just a modest expenditure of time, resin, and printer opportunity.
One of my buddies has an Elysian army, but it could really use more infantry. Unfortunately, FW no longer produces them. Fortunately, there are community-made 3D models matching the scale and style of Elysians that work perfectly. So he's printing out another couple of squads to round out his army, and our group is gearing up to play the 5th Ed Raid on Kastorel-Novem campaign with Elysians vs Orks. It doesn't matter that it's an edition that's no longer supported using models that no longer exist; we already have everything we need. After that, we're planning to give Halo: Ground Command a try. The game is by all metrics officially dead, but there's a dedicated community keeping it alive via 3D printing. When it costs pennies to print a 15mm mini, the barrier to entry is very low, as is the risk if it turns out we don't actually like the game.
As 3D printing improves, it has the potential to completely upend what we think of as a 'dead game'. When rules are available for free online- or someone in a group has the rulebook- and minis can be made for it on demand, the only thing you're missing is the constant drip-feed of new product to consume (and all the problems that go with it). I think this is a big deal for gaming, but we're only seeing the start of it because there still is a fair bit of tinkering needed with off-the-shelf resin printers. It's not yet plug-and-play, but with more printers that are essentially ready to go out of the box, more official documentation on settings for print/resin combos, and more pre-supported models that are ready to print, it's getting better every day. If someone comes up with a resin that produces good quality but doesn't require gloves, a respirator, and ventilation, we'll be nearly there.
To bring this all back to the topic of the thread, I expect GW's 'no 3D printing' policy to remain intact for events, just as they will continue to ban third-party miniatures. As well, we can already see the attitude towards conversions growing more restrictive over time- I'd never heard of the term 'modeling for advantage' ten years ago, let alone something that gets brought up every time a creative conversion or even pose alteration is proposed. In the long run, I can see this pushing towards a divide between casual play where anything goes (but GW will not want you using non-GW minis in their stores), and competitive play where you are expected to use GW models exactly as supplied with minimal conversion. The issues people bring up in regards to 3D printing, like changing the size of a model, are already things that you can do with conventional models, and I expect to see both treated similarly.
Edit: I'd hasten to add that yes it would be a dead game, you need opponents to play a game and people won't want to get involved in a game that isn't supported. You'll have a hard time finding a 5th ed opponent now for example and that's just an old edition of a currently successful game.
I suppose this might be a problem for those of you who lack friends. Or the ability to make friends. Or can't bring yourself to even speak to those you play with/others at the shop.
Spoiler:
For the rest of us though? How often have you been talking to a fellow gamer at the shop & be it an RPG, minis game, or even some board game, someone's said something along the lines of "Yeah, I used to play ___. I still have my books/army/stuff up in the attic/storage/etc. Man, loved that game - but I haven't played that in ages. (fill in some reason)"
It's a pretty simple matter from that point to set up a game....
In the past few months? I've played Star Fleet Battles (some edition from the 90's), Flames of War 3e (the previous edition & substantially different from the current), Pathfinder 1e RPG (current is 2e) & WHFB3ed ed - a game that's not only technicaly oop (replaced by 3 editions of Sigmar), but 5! editions older than the most recent WHFB version.
Several years back the local shop ran a 1e D&D game. Those books went oop before most of the players involved were even born. Those new players didn't rely on us old guard to provide the books. They simply EBayed what they needed or got PDFs.
So if GW/40k died tomorrow? There'd be no problem getting games.
1) There's plenty of players heavily invested. Their stuff isn't going to just dissapear. They aren't simply going to chuck their stuff in the trash.
2) Real life XP leads me to expect that there'll be plenty who will have their books & minis for many years to come. We'll have plenty more of that "man, I used to play...." conversation in the coming decades.
3) Between Ebay etc, 3d printing, & PDFs? There'll never be a time that you won't be able to find the models/rules for whatever edition you all agree to play.
4) It's not that hard to draw in new players. All they need is to SEE games being played & people having fun.
Beyond suggesting the social impaired might have difficulties, if you asked me to play BFG as mentioned above by catbarf, without personal access to a 3d printer it literally wouldn't be worth my time.
Your best bets are some people who just happen to have the stuff lying around or are willing to trawl around for odds and ends. If you approach most people and say "this game is now out of print, the company that made it has gone bust and there'll be no support ever", that's an instant turn off for someone, why do that instead of trying an actively supported game?