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I really hope this means fewer desperate meta chasers, seeing how completely the ork buggies/flyers got nerfed. Players with 4+ planes and 9(9!) scrapjets will now have fancy decorations. I hope a lot of players will hesitate to pick up those maxed possible squads of overtuned models in the future.

tneva82 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Aenar wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
3 months is the sweet spot. Faster than that and it becomes even harder to stay on top of things.

What I mean is: The quarterly patch drops today and tomorrow Dhrukari and their supplement are released. I think people would appreciate a response after the first two weekends of sweeping GT victories instead of waiting 3 months.

At most you wait 3 months for something to be reigned in.
And the best news is that it will be a digital update, since there is no chance for them to print, ship and sell books to provide quarterly updates. It means that they are not going to fix the problems of six months and further in the past, since they needed the time to physically produce the books.
Hopefully it means that they are able to stay on top of things and update the game in a timely manner.

Well that assumes gw dev's aren't total morons. If they aren't they know problems well before it's even released so could be producing next quarter lhanges well in advance.

Occam's famous prhase should be renamed "Nottingham's Razor".

 the_scotsman wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Be interesting to see what this does to DE. I was going to say RIP* - but I think the fact there are points drop to Talos (which went through a period of being the DE unit you don't take - but have been making a reappearance recently) might swing it back the other way.

*And if you were running a lot of wyches+incubi in raiders, I think it might still be.

Also no changes to hellions or venoms. Wych change is a huge deal if you were running wyches in raiders, but only 10pts to the squad if youre running 5 in a venom to get some No Escape and quick objective clearing.

I think drukhari will still be pulling over 50%. probably not a ton, but we'll be fine. People will pull out the units that were previously the B-team - Taloi, Ravagers, Voidravens, etc.

Don't forget, Venoms got 10pts cheaper So if you were running MSU Wyches in Venoms...your list is literally the same price

Wayniac wrote:
Ork players on suicide watch?

Didn't impact my army at all thankfully but meta chasers are going to be pissed. With that said, this is yet another swathe of ork units GW is actively disincentivizing you from buying. I have maxed out units from previous editions, GW arbitrarily made those units smaller meaning I had TOO many models to play a legal game with. They just did this to probably the best selling kits they had on the market, Buggies. This will hit their bottom line and they will go into another period of "Orkz don't buy!" which after this years releases....I can stand for a few years, we need some more love spread around to the other xenos factions like Eldar and Nidz. I am officially saying Orkz have enough new stuff for a bit

EmperorForearm wrote:
I really hope this means fewer desperate meta chasers, seeing how completely the ork buggies/flyers got nerfed. Players with 4+ planes and 9(9!) scrapjets will now have fancy decorations. I hope a lot of players will hesitate to pick up those maxed possible squads of overtuned models in the future.

Nice I might actually pick one of the cast-offs from tourney players jumping ship...

EmperorForearm wrote:
I really hope this means fewer desperate meta chasers, seeing how completely the ork buggies/flyers got nerfed. Players with 4+ planes and 9(9!) scrapjets will now have fancy decorations. I hope a lot of players will hesitate to pick up those maxed possible squads of overtuned models in the future.

That isn't how this works. It means a new meta and a new round of sales, maybe a sudden temporary influx of ork stuff on ebay.
Meta shifts are a normal part of the process, they just generally don't suddenly put a hard cap on sales of specific models.

EmperorForearm wrote:
I really hope this means fewer desperate meta chasers, seeing how completely the ork buggies/flyers got nerfed. Players with 4+ planes and 9(9!) scrapjets will now have fancy decorations. I hope a lot of players will hesitate to pick up those maxed possible squads of overtuned models in the future.

I own 3 buggies total. 3 scrapjets from 8th edition. I was going to buy another 3 this year or next year at some point because I love the model (I hate all the other buggies) and thought it would be fun to play a scrapjet skwadron with some biker support. All this did was turn me off from buying full unit sizes in the future.

Can’t run all my mek guns, can’t run all my buggies, can’t run all my war bosses.
I guess next edition I’ll only be able to take 10 boyz?

I do have to say, I am a bit floored with how quickly GW came out with the nerf hammer to beat the orkz into submission. The meta hasn't even evolved to target orkz yet and they already killed them. The SOCAL open where Orkz forced the Dark Eldar to concede turn 1 or 2, the DE Player even admitted his list was the exact OPPOSITE of what he would need to face that ork list. I think he said he only had like 5 blasters for anti-tank/vehicle ranged fire in his entire army.

That is like bringing 18 Las Chickens to a game and then complaining because you didn't have enough low strength firepower to deal with the 300+ infantry your opponent brought.

SemperMortis wrote:
I do have to say, I am a bit floored with how quickly GW came out with the nerf hammer to beat the orkz into submission. The meta hasn't even evolved to target orkz yet and they already killed them. The SOCAL open where Orkz forced the Dark Eldar to concede turn 1 or 2, the DE Player even admitted his list was the exact OPPOSITE of what he would need to face that ork list. I think he said he only had like 5 blasters for anti-tank/vehicle ranged fire in his entire army.

That is like bringing 18 Las Chickens to a game and then complaining because you didn't have enough low strength firepower to deal with the 300+ infantry your opponent brought.

I don't think GW was even thinking about Ork aircraft on this one. It was probably the big buggy lists of September that caught their attention.

SemperMortis wrote:
I do have to say, I am a bit floored with how quickly GW came out with the nerf hammer to beat the orkz into submission. The meta hasn't even evolved to target orkz yet and they already killed them. The SOCAL open where Orkz forced the Dark Eldar to concede turn 1 or 2, the DE Player even admitted his list was the exact OPPOSITE of what he would need to face that ork list. I think he said he only had like 5 blasters for anti-tank/vehicle ranged fire in his entire army.

That is like bringing 18 Las Chickens to a game and then complaining because you didn't have enough low strength firepower to deal with the 300+ infantry your opponent brought.

I really think it's due to the unknown impact of the speed waaagh AOR they just dropped. If this thing was already dunking on a top meta army, and they're also nerfing that top meta army, buffing the exact thing that just dunked on them extremely hard seems like a recipe for another codex drukhari 70% winrate PR disaster.

Racerguy180 wrote:

EmperorForearm wrote:
I really hope this means fewer desperate meta chasers, seeing how completely the ork buggies/flyers got nerfed. Players with 4+ planes and 9(9!) scrapjets will now have fancy decorations. I hope a lot of players will hesitate to pick up those maxed possible squads of overtuned models in the future.

Nice I might actually pick one of the cast-offs from tourney players jumping ship...

exactly my thought - hopefully nicely painted ones

 the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I do have to say, I am a bit floored with how quickly GW came out with the nerf hammer to beat the orkz into submission. The meta hasn't even evolved to target orkz yet and they already killed them. The SOCAL open where Orkz forced the Dark Eldar to concede turn 1 or 2, the DE Player even admitted his list was the exact OPPOSITE of what he would need to face that ork list. I think he said he only had like 5 blasters for anti-tank/vehicle ranged fire in his entire army.

That is like bringing 18 Las Chickens to a game and then complaining because you didn't have enough low strength firepower to deal with the 300+ infantry your opponent brought.

I really think it's due to the unknown impact of the speed waaagh AOR they just dropped. If this thing was already dunking on a top meta army, and they're also nerfing that top meta army, buffing the exact thing that just dunked on them extremely hard seems like a recipe for another codex drukhari 70% winrate PR disaster.

Except that the Speedwaaagh thing makes them lose their kulture. You take away Freeboota from that buggy list and its going to struggle to do anything. So the new army of renown nonsense was a non-issue from the start. Scrapjets are good, when they are BS4 is when they become a bit too good. Giving them +1 attack and a 5++ if they advance...but hten can't charge....isn't going to be a big deal

SemperMortis wrote:
I do have to say, I am a bit floored with how quickly GW came out with the nerf hammer to beat the orkz into submission. The meta hasn't even evolved to target orkz yet and they already killed them. The SOCAL open where Orkz forced the Dark Eldar to concede turn 1 or 2, the DE Player even admitted his list was the exact OPPOSITE of what he would need to face that ork list. I think he said he only had like 5 blasters for anti-tank/vehicle ranged fire in his entire army.

That is like bringing 18 Las Chickens to a game and then complaining because you didn't have enough low strength firepower to deal with the 300+ infantry your opponent brought.

Also, full context of the player's quote here, because you are massively misquoting what he actually said:


(OrdoSean Writes)
"I mean drukhari are a strong army. But they’re winning events by avoiding Orks. Or playing bad ork lists. They aren’t tearing up ork lists. Also they’re win percentage has dropped in the high 50’s low 60’s the last few months. Admech are the king of win percentage right now and largely one of the few armies that can use their regular build to beat Orks.

Anyway. People can argue I made a mistake. Or I left myself out there. Really I don’t care. But the ork player had already turn one or turn 2 crushed two other drukhari players who both had more guns and higher toughness vehicles than I. So I could have run out and hoped to pass an overwhelming number of saves and then make some charges and still get tabled by the way. Or I could hide and still get tabled. Or really do whatever and still get tabled. One of those choices would be over the fastest while presenting the highest chance of victory. So I took it.

Also if you think my list was built for turn one assaults you’re wrong. My list doesn’t do real turn one damage. It’s a counter play charge list built in incubi combat. Which by the way does nothing to ork vehicles.

It was a bad matchup. Likely the most lopsided game of 40K I’ve ever been involved in. And sadly speaks to a style of 40K I don’t particularly enjoy. Because the counter measures for me involve playing lists that are boring. But it is what it is."

Note the "crushed 2 other drukhari player who both had more guns and higher toughness vehicles than I" - this doesn't seem like "i took the wrong things in my army" as much as "I took the wrong army" to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I do have to say, I am a bit floored with how quickly GW came out with the nerf hammer to beat the orkz into submission. The meta hasn't even evolved to target orkz yet and they already killed them. The SOCAL open where Orkz forced the Dark Eldar to concede turn 1 or 2, the DE Player even admitted his list was the exact OPPOSITE of what he would need to face that ork list. I think he said he only had like 5 blasters for anti-tank/vehicle ranged fire in his entire army.

That is like bringing 18 Las Chickens to a game and then complaining because you didn't have enough low strength firepower to deal with the 300+ infantry your opponent brought.

I really think it's due to the unknown impact of the speed waaagh AOR they just dropped. If this thing was already dunking on a top meta army, and they're also nerfing that top meta army, buffing the exact thing that just dunked on them extremely hard seems like a recipe for another codex drukhari 70% winrate PR disaster.

Except that the Speedwaaagh thing makes them lose their kulture. You take away Freeboota from that buggy list and its going to struggle to do anything. So the new army of renown nonsense was a non-issue from the start. Scrapjets are good, when they are BS4 is when they become a bit too good. Giving them +1 attack and a 5++ if they advance...but hten can't charge....isn't going to be a big deal

You really actually think that there's no potential balance problem in exchanging speed freeks (which doesnt affect Heavy Squig Launchas or Wing Missiles incidentally) for granting an essentially always-on 5++ invuln on vehicles that ALSO get ramshackle? Really? especially when you still get Freebootas on your planes/nonspeedfreeks and the speed freeks can trigger it for them?

I think youre completely blinded by faction bias if you dont see "What if Raiders, but -1 damage to S7 and lower and no bracketerino and strat for basically army wide -1 to hit" as a potential balance snafu at least somewhat.

Voss wrote:
That isn't how this works. It means a new meta and a new round of sales, maybe a sudden temporary influx of ork stuff on ebay.
Meta shifts are a normal part of the process, they just generally don't suddenly put a hard cap on sales of specific models.

I understand some people will always chase the meta, but if this results in fewer people spamming I'm all for it. I definitely enjoy both playing, watching, and reading about games with more variety.

SemperMortis wrote:
I own 3 buggies total. 3 scrapjets from 8th edition. I was going to buy another 3 this year or next year at some point because I love the model (I hate all the other buggies) and thought it would be fun to play a scrapjet skwadron with some biker support. All this did was turn me off from buying full unit sizes in the future.

While I agree the scrapjet is definitely the best looking (and coincidentally also the only buggy that I own), I think 3 of a model as big as a buggy is already a healthy spot for the game. I like the idea that armies need to dip into multiple datasheets. I was a big fan of the rule of 3 when that dropped, and this feels very much in the same vein. 4-6 squigbuggies and/or 4-6 scrapjets feels exactly like 4-6 hive tyrants did when that blew up. I've seen your list and respect that you do not field a list like that, I'm just saying.

I liked running multiple scrapjets, multiple multiples, mainly cause they felt nice and generic.

This is a nice move by GW, with some pretty surprising adjustments.

Leman Russes to 2+ is dope. Necron CORE keyword to various units is great.

The Ork adjustment comes as a real surprise. That's a pretty unprecedented restriction. I can see the spirit/merit of it, but it's still a bit heavy handed. I have mixed feelings about it.

 the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I do have to say, I am a bit floored with how quickly GW came out with the nerf hammer to beat the orkz into submission. The meta hasn't even evolved to target orkz yet and they already killed them. The SOCAL open where Orkz forced the Dark Eldar to concede turn 1 or 2, the DE Player even admitted his list was the exact OPPOSITE of what he would need to face that ork list. I think he said he only had like 5 blasters for anti-tank/vehicle ranged fire in his entire army.

That is like bringing 18 Las Chickens to a game and then complaining because you didn't have enough low strength firepower to deal with the 300+ infantry your opponent brought.

Also, full context of the player's quote here, because you are massively misquoting what he actually said:

You really actually think that there's no potential balance problem in exchanging speed freeks (which doesnt affect Heavy Squig Launchas or Wing Missiles incidentally) for granting an essentially always-on 5++ invuln on vehicles that ALSO get ramshackle? Really? especially when you still get Freebootas on your planes/nonspeedfreeks and the speed freeks can trigger it for them?

I think youre completely blinded by faction bias if you dont see "What if Raiders, but -1 damage to S7 and lower and no bracketerino and strat for basically army wide -1 to hit" as a potential balance snafu at least somewhat.

I actually wasn't "Massively misquoting what he actually said" what I was doing was talking about a private conversation I had with him on the matter on facebook I have a bunch of friends who are on the GT scene and as such i have access to a lot of these players indirectly through my friends who I help get ready for GTs.

And as far as the Army of Renown, yes, there was a possibility it could create an issue, but not to this extent. The Dmg output goes down but durability/speed go up. And the fact that some of the buffs actively work against one another helps justify my belief that it wouldn't have been too bad compared to the current meta list. +1 attack in CC is good...except when you can't charge because to get that 5++ you had to advance and therefore aren't eligible to charge. As far as the 5++ stacking with Ramshackle...I honestly haven't had too many chances to even use ramshackle this edition. Its either pointless (1dmg weapons) or S8+ weapons like lascannons and melta. So the big buff would have just been getting the 5++ which is a hefty durability boost for sure, but it comes at the cost of losing 50% of your dmg output from ranged weapons that AREN'T heavy squiglaunchas and Wing missiles.

SemperMortis wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I do have to say, I am a bit floored with how quickly GW came out with the nerf hammer to beat the orkz into submission. The meta hasn't even evolved to target orkz yet and they already killed them. The SOCAL open where Orkz forced the Dark Eldar to concede turn 1 or 2, the DE Player even admitted his list was the exact OPPOSITE of what he would need to face that ork list. I think he said he only had like 5 blasters for anti-tank/vehicle ranged fire in his entire army.

That is like bringing 18 Las Chickens to a game and then complaining because you didn't have enough low strength firepower to deal with the 300+ infantry your opponent brought.

Also, full context of the player's quote here, because you are massively misquoting what he actually said:

You really actually think that there's no potential balance problem in exchanging speed freeks (which doesnt affect Heavy Squig Launchas or Wing Missiles incidentally) for granting an essentially always-on 5++ invuln on vehicles that ALSO get ramshackle? Really? especially when you still get Freebootas on your planes/nonspeedfreeks and the speed freeks can trigger it for them?

I think youre completely blinded by faction bias if you dont see "What if Raiders, but -1 damage to S7 and lower and no bracketerino and strat for basically army wide -1 to hit" as a potential balance snafu at least somewhat.

I actually wasn't "Massively misquoting what he actually said" what I was doing was talking about a private conversation I had with him on the matter on facebook I have a bunch of friends who are on the GT scene and as such i have access to a lot of these players indirectly through my friends who I help get ready for GTs.

And as far as the Army of Renown, yes, there was a possibility it could create an issue, but not to this extent. The Dmg output goes down but durability/speed go up. And the fact that some of the buffs actively work against one another helps justify my belief that it wouldn't have been too bad compared to the current meta list. +1 attack in CC is good...except when you can't charge because to get that 5++ you had to advance and therefore aren't eligible to charge. As far as the 5++ stacking with Ramshackle...I honestly haven't had too many chances to even use ramshackle this edition. Its either pointless (1dmg weapons) or S8+ weapons like lascannons and melta. So the big buff would have just been getting the 5++ which is a hefty durability boost for sure, but it comes at the cost of losing 50% of your dmg output from ranged weapons that AREN'T heavy squiglaunchas and Wing missiles.

or planes, or KMKs, or dragstas because theyre 3+ to hit going to 2+ to hit so the Freebootas bonus matters a bit less.

The +1A is largely pointless, yes, except on the biker killer klaw warboss you can take in the list as your second HQ because you dont need a KFF mek anymore (and cant take him anyway) and it allows the min (now obsec) biker squads to eat enemy objective holder/action doer squads more effectively. Its not much, but its not nothing.

The real star of the show is exchanging the freebootas bonus on, realistically:

-Rokkit Kannons
-Kustom Shokka Rifles
-Rivet Kannons
-regular squig launchas

in exchange for a massive durability boost and slight mobility boost on almost your entire army, and the entire part of your army that your opponent was actually trying to attack to control objectives.

Come on. You know a version of that competitive list with the flyers still getting the freeboota bonus and an always-on 5++ on all your buggies and bikers would have been fething absurd, and you'd have to take weird super skewed lists like all stormshield all infantry deathwatch to actually be able to have a game against it.

 the_scotsman wrote:


or planes, or KMKs, or dragstas because theyre 3+ to hit going to 2+ to hit so the Freebootas bonus matters a bit less.

The +1A is largely pointless, yes, except on the biker killer klaw warboss you can take in the list as your second HQ because you dont need a KFF mek anymore (and cant take him anyway) and it allows the min (now obsec) biker squads to eat enemy objective holder/action doer squads more effectively. Its not much, but its not nothing.

The real star of the show is exchanging the freebootas bonus on, realistically:

-Rokkit Kannons
-Kustom Shokka Rifles
-Rivet Kannons
-regular squig launchas

in exchange for a massive durability boost and slight mobility boost on almost your entire army, and the entire part of your army that your opponent was actually trying to attack to control objectives.

Come on. You know a version of that competitive list with the flyers still getting the freeboota bonus and an always-on 5++ on all your buggies and bikers would have been fething absurd, and you'd have to take weird super skewed lists like all stormshield all infantry deathwatch to actually be able to have a game against it.

You can't take KMKs or Mek gunz in general anymore with that army. Which is also probably the biggest nerf portion of that army of renown. not necessarily the Mek guns specifically, but that you are extremely limited now in what you can take. No more kommandos, no more stormboyz, no more mek gunz, dreadz, kanz, tankbustas, gitz, no more footsloggin warbosses or beastbosses. So you are extremely limited here.

As far as those Warbikers you mention are concerned, they get +1 attack on the charge if they didn't advance but they also lose BS4 on their guns. That means during a regular turn at half range they went from 5 hits per bike to 3.3 that is as mentioned, a 50% reduction in hits. And what do they get to make up for that loss? 1 extra S4 attack at WS3.

I think its comparable to the competitive level of the current freeboota buggy spam list but I don't think its better.

Must say the more I think about it the less I like the Ork change. Seems like a rather heavy handed approach that invalidates people's collections for no reason. When my DG "buggies" got nerfed, people who bought 9 MBH got shafted but could still technically run all of them. Not so much with the Ork buggies now. That and as I said in the other thread I'm disappointed this was not used to update DG Legion vehicles to have DR in line with the TS codex or to give CSM their second wound.
Well intentioned but another squandered opportunity as always with GW.

 Castozor wrote:
update DG Legion vehicles to have DR in line with the TS codex .

Sorry what? Tsons vehicles do not have All is Dust.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Once again CSM get screwed over. Easily the least improved out of the buffs. The contempt for that faction is very clear at this point. Most of the other seemed good though.

Technically you're correct. Because orks were the only faction to get a nerf and no buffs.

I keep saying it but you want to massively buff the chaos space marine codex? You want 2w marines? You want a functional codex? You want an insane amount of customizability with the rules for your models? Then counts as loyalists might be the strategy for you. Want world eaters? With berserker dreadnoughts? Then space Wolves is for you! They also produce magnificent possessed via the wulfen models and make for awesome word bearers equivelents too. How about blobs of bullet sponges to eat wounds for your space marines like we wish we could do with our cultists? Sounds like you want to run black Templar’s with cultist models being counts as neophytes. They got something for every legion or conceivable warband you could possibly want!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternatively blood angels make for wonderful world eaters proxy as well... look the loyalist source material currently gives chaos way more to work with with its 120 datasheets than the chaos codex ever will. Only downside is you can’t rock your daemon engines. Unless someone else knows something in that codex that works for daemon engines.

Glad to see that the internet agitation succeeded, hopefully people won't let up and we can continue to pressure GW to actually fix their game.

This is good.

But eventually that pendulum is going to swing back just as hard as they pushed it. Then it's just guesswork on whether it hits them in the face, or us.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
update DG Legion vehicles to have DR in line with the TS codex .

Sorry what? Tsons vehicles do not have All is Dust.

probably thinks that DR is the legion trait like so many people do.

Ah yes, another reason to not play 40k with my light infantry / air cav guard.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Glad to see that the internet agitation succeeded, hopefully people won't let up and we can continue to pressure GW to actually fix their game.

This is good.

Expect they didn't really fix some of it, Buggies are limit to 3 and flyers to 2, which is a bad way to balance the game if the idea is to play what you want. I'd rather they just nerf the points or datasheet changes.

So IDK if i like this fix honestly. What else are they goig to do in the future if 1 thing is too strong? Whats next Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts limited to 2 per army?

I must be horrifying if you think that limitations on what you can put in your army is a bad idea. Every time we turn around GW is adding more and more limitations to Matched Play and Battle-Forged armies.

All Relics are unique
Can't duplicate Warlord Traits
"The Rule of Three"
One Command Squad per commander
Limiting the number of commanders per detachment (Space Marine Captains, Chaos Lords, Canoness, etc. and so on)
Limited upgrades units
Only 1 of each Buggy unit per army
Only 2 Aircraft for army

Will the madness ever end?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Glad to see that the internet agitation succeeded, hopefully people won't let up and we can continue to pressure GW to actually fix their game.

This is good.

Expect they didn't really fix some of it, Buggies are limit to 3 and flyers to 2, which is a bad way to balance the game if the idea is to play what you want. I'd rather they just nerf the points or datasheet changes.

So IDK if i like this fix honestly. What else are they goig to do in the future if 1 thing is too strong? Whats next Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts limited to 2 per army?

There are plenty of similar restrictions like Warbosses, Daemon Princes, Commanders, chaff to core infantry ratios, and Rule of 3. This is nothing new.