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Made in us
Norn Queen






roboemperor wrote:
So psychic power is independent of the warp? That's the only way the Hive Mind can exist outside of the warp.


Also, HUMANS have psychic powers. And while they tap INTO the warp to use them, they are not themselves warp entities are they?


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Isn’t it just possible that tyranid warp powers work differently to humans, eldar, Orks and chaos?

It could be some sort of matter/dark matter situation.

So the presence of the energy used by the nids has the same effect in the warp as dark matter does in real space
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




U.k

 Overread wrote:
Andykp wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Well they already can talk with people - Genestealer Cults. Which I note are not unique to humans, just the most populated group and thus represented. I'm sure if some stealers got into Eldar they'd create an Eldar Cult quite readily. Orks it would probably end up like Chaos orks and them not being "orky" enough and being killed quite quickly.



I think the thing is the Hive Mind has so many potential elements to manifest as what a person might see as an individual, especially through our desires to associate with it in a form we understand; but it ultimately might only be a facet of the Hive Mind.






Also note Chaos Gods are not "Gods". They call themselves Gods, but they are simply warp creatures that have devoured the most souls over time and risen to the top. In theory there could be any number of Chaos Gods and heck back in the early days there was a 5th god who later vanished (though I have a feeling he might have been a touch more Old World than 40K, but back then Chaos lore swapped over a lot more).

I think it might be more true to say that the Chaos Gods are Warp entities born and created within the Warp itself. That is their natural habitat. Meanwhile the Tyranid Hive Mind and the Shadow of the Warp is less a creature living within it and more a projection of a creature living within the real world.



Indeed if we consider that all living things have a soul within the setting (or at least all sentient life); then consider that when you die your soul goes to the Warp then the Shadow in the Warp might well be just that. The uncountable weight of every single Tyranid that ever died. With the stark difference that they remain united in death as a single group as they were in life and that they also retain a connection to the living swarm as well. Basically a huge singular will of "soul" energy that defies the natural creatures of the Warp from devouring or threatening it.


Whoa there! The chaos gods are not entities that have eaten enough souls! They are the manifestations of coalesced emotions.


True, but at the same time consumption of souls is part of their power and structure. Consumption might be the wrong way to put it; gathering, coalescence, unity. Whatever it is they do certainly latch onto certain soul energies and focus on them but will also consume almost any soul they can get. How much they consume then becomes their power structure of a sorts.

But they are a kind of entity within the warp and its often noted that there are other demons and creatures within the warp that also corrupt souls and take them. Only they are much lesser and thus not worthy of note like the great 4.


Don’t worry wasn’t having a go. More light hearted. But true.

I don’t really “know” a lot about nids, but I always thought of the hive mind as a collective consciousness, a hive-mind if you would. Not so much a warp thing but affects the warp with its “otherness”. But like I say I am not knowledgeable on the matter.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I think the key is we are trying to draw a line between a Warp Entity and a Manifestation of a Hive Mind within the real world. Where in reality the Hive Mind might be neither and could be a pure hybrid of the two or even rely on a third set of properties that is similar to both but in a league of its own.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Hive Mind is a warp entity. It is the sum total of all of the individual "souls" of Tyranid creatures acting as a single whole and bound together. It is a warp entity that arises out of the combined action of all living Tyranids, who act as its body in realspace.

Other species such as humans and Eldar have souls (i.e. warp presences) bound to their individual bodies but they all act as individuals. That is why for example the Eldar D-scythe weapons talk of cutting the cord that links the soul to the body. Tyranid creatures have individual souls or warp presences too, as seen by Eldar psykers in Valedor when individual Tyranid creatures get cast into the warp by D-cannons. It's just that these souls are also simultaneously bound into one entity, which is the warp entity of the Hive Mind.

The dichotomy of something either being a purely warp existing entity or a purely material entity is false. Living creatures in 40K span the two universes. Necrontyr did while the Necrons now only exist in the material universe but their lack of a warp presence or soul seems to cause them problems or at the least unhappiness.

I have already disproven the earlier assertion of Tyranids not using warp energy, by quoting from the most recent 8th edition Codex which explicitly says they use warp energy. Any attempted retcon from past editions has been itself retconned.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/21 21:17:26


 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

I do not think the hivemind is a warp entity.

Picture a lot of computers in network. Connect them with wifi. None of these computers is the hivemind. But the hivemind grows out of the processing powers of these computers. (I suppose Skynet could be a metaphor here, but Skynet is a designed defensive program. A better analogy would be the consius entity in the ghost in the shell movie. It grows out of computers connected online and one day desides to do it's own thing.)

The shadow in the warp is a secondery effect caused by all the wifi signals. (Like how you get bad Wifi near huge electric currents.)

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

I like this excerpt. This suggests that it's not a creature born of the warp, but it does exist in the warp, projected by the tyranids physical bodies. Like how a psykers soul projects into the warp, just on a much vaster scale. Big enough that it's practically on par with a warp god.
Devastation of Baal wrote:‘I have looked into the shadow in the warp and seen the thing that casts it,’ said Mephiston. ‘What assails our galaxy is not an army of individuals, or even a colony of social animals working as one, but a single creature, a monstrous foe of inconceivable dimensions. Scaraban is correct. We have our perception of this predator back to front. It is not as it appears, a host of creatures linked psychically, it can instead be seen as a single, massive psychic presence: a single mind. These monsters that attack us generate it, they make it as a man makes his soul, but whereas ours are individual, theirs is singular, a single predator, not many.’
‘And when they attack each other?’ said Malphas.
‘Perhaps the hive fleets are different beings, one mind for each. Perhaps they are all ultimately one. We cannot say for sure. The tyranids are utterly alien. But we know the hive mind is real. This intelligence is emergent, coming from the billions of creatures in the swarms, but it is not an empty intellect, it is aware. It has a soul.’
‘You say then this being is a warp entity, born of the immaterium?’ asked a Librarian. ‘In our librarius we have theorised it is but another thing of Chaos wearing xenos skin.’
‘Codicier Laertamos, Brothers of the Red,’ the herald skull announced.
Scaraban shook his head. ‘I am sure its origins are in this realm of being. We are not alone in holding this opinion of its nature. The reports of Inquisitor Kryptmann, others in the Inquisition and the Magos Biologis suggest so, at least those that support this interpretation. Perhaps what we are seeing is a creature part-way to spiritual transcendence, a gestalt made of the minds of billions of brute animals trapped half in and half out of the warp by unending hunger?’
‘You suggest we fight a god?’ scoffed a Space Marine of cadaverous appearance. His eyes were sunken in skin that looked dry as dust.
‘Carnifus, third captain, Blood Drinkers.’
‘Is there a better word for such a thing?’ said Mephiston.
‘Blasphemy,’ muttered Carnifus.
‘Then should we not take the fight to it psychically? Destroy the mind and the bodies will follow.’
‘Dammanes, seventh captain, Brothers of the Red,’ said the herald skull.
‘We cannot fight it in the warp, my brothers. Its presence there is so overwhelming that the Emperor himself would not prevail,’ said Dante. ‘When these things are separated from their mind, as has happened in my wars against them, be it by psychic or physical means, they remain alive, and savage, with a will and intelligence of their own to fall back on until they are enslaved again. The Leviathan must be killed in the flesh, then the mind will die, for the mind is generated by the creatures it guides. It is a thing of this world that is half in the next. That is its weakness. Its creatures seem endless, but kill enough of them, and the hive mind is weakened. Kill all of them, and it is over.’
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




deleted

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:12:26


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Iracundus wrote:
The Hive Mind is a warp entity. It is the sum total of all of the individual "souls" of Tyranid creatures acting as a single whole and bound together.
very specifically the deamons don't like the tyranids because they have no souls to corrupt while eliminating the souls they can.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




deleted

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:12:34


 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






BL novel: The Hive Mind isn't a Warp Entity
Roboemperor: It's a Warp Entity
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

There isn't a conclusive answer, there isn't meant to be. Go with what would be coolest to you.

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Lance845 wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
The Hive Mind is a warp entity. It is the sum total of all of the individual "souls" of Tyranid creatures acting as a single whole and bound together.
very specifically the deamons don't like the tyranids because they have no souls to corrupt while eliminating the souls they can.


Tyranids have warp presences but they are not individuals the way humans and Eldar are individuals. Their warp presences or “souls” are merged into one entity. Individual Tyranids have no inner emotional life for daemons to hook onto. A single daemon could no more corrupt the Hive Mind than a single daemon could corrupt or stand against a Chaos god, which is also an entity formed from the coalescing of souls/warp presences albeit ones from deceased creatures.

Again this whole idea of warp entity meaning it must be entirely in the warp is a false idea. Sure daemons and Chaos gods are like that, but Humans and Eldar are warp entities as well because they have a warp presence or soul anchored to their bodies. Or perhaps you could call them dual natured, but whatever the label it is one that applies to living Tyranids as well. This activeness in the warp again as I have mentioned over repeatedly is why in GW fiction like Valedor and Wraithflight the Hive Mind is visible in the warp. It is not the Shadow. Instead it is perceived as a bright shining braid/rope dwarfing the individual psyker trying to look at it with their warp sight. Those that try to argue the Hive Mind is purely material have never addressed this fact.

If you took all humans and linked them into a gestalt
you would get a singular warp entity similar to the Hive Mind. In fact, that is part of the plot of Ian Watson’s Inquisitor novel.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/21 22:35:24


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






I dont address the books because the books constantly contradict themselves depending on author down to having guns shoot entirely different kinds of amunition.

The lore comes in teirs.

Latest codex trumps old codex.
All codexes trump everything else.
GW written materials trump other authors.
GW authorized authors trump non GW authorized authors.

BL books are down past old codexes for thwir complete lack of cohesion.

So i just don't care what that book has to say.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Arson Fire wrote:
Spoiler:
I like this excerpt. This suggests that it's not a creature born of the warp, but it does exist in the warp, projected by the tyranids physical bodies. Like how a psykers soul projects into the warp, just on a much vaster scale. Big enough that it's practically on par with a warp god.
Devastation of Baal wrote:‘I have looked into the shadow in the warp and seen the thing that casts it,’ said Mephiston. ‘What assails our galaxy is not an army of individuals, or even a colony of social animals working as one, but a single creature, a monstrous foe of inconceivable dimensions. Scaraban is correct. We have our perception of this predator back to front. It is not as it appears, a host of creatures linked psychically, it can instead be seen as a single, massive psychic presence: a single mind. These monsters that attack us generate it, they make it as a man makes his soul, but whereas ours are individual, theirs is singular, a single predator, not many.’
‘And when they attack each other?’ said Malphas.
‘Perhaps the hive fleets are different beings, one mind for each. Perhaps they are all ultimately one. We cannot say for sure. The tyranids are utterly alien. But we know the hive mind is real. This intelligence is emergent, coming from the billions of creatures in the swarms, but it is not an empty intellect, it is aware. It has a soul.’
‘You say then this being is a warp entity, born of the immaterium?’ asked a Librarian. ‘In our librarius we have theorised it is but another thing of Chaos wearing xenos skin.’
‘Codicier Laertamos, Brothers of the Red,’ the herald skull announced.
Scaraban shook his head. ‘I am sure its origins are in this realm of being. We are not alone in holding this opinion of its nature. The reports of Inquisitor Kryptmann, others in the Inquisition and the Magos Biologis suggest so, at least those that support this interpretation.
Spoiler:
Perhaps what we are seeing is a creature part-way to spiritual transcendence, a gestalt made of the minds of billions of brute animals trapped half in and half out of the warp by unending hunger?’
‘You suggest we fight a god?’ scoffed a Space Marine of cadaverous appearance. His eyes were sunken in skin that looked dry as dust.
‘Carnifus, third captain, Blood Drinkers.’
‘Is there a better word for such a thing?’ said Mephiston.
‘Blasphemy,’ muttered Carnifus.
‘Then should we not take the fight to it psychically? Destroy the mind and the bodies will follow.’
‘Dammanes, seventh captain, Brothers of the Red,’ said the herald skull.
‘We cannot fight it in the warp, my brothers. Its presence there is so overwhelming that the Emperor himself would not prevail,’ said Dante. ‘When these things are separated from their mind, as has happened in my wars against them, be it by psychic or physical means, they remain alive, and savage, with a will and intelligence of their own to fall back on until they are enslaved again. The Leviathan must be killed in the flesh, then the mind will die, for the mind is generated by the creatures it guides. It is a thing of this world that is half in the next. That is its weakness. Its creatures seem endless, but kill enough of them, and the hive mind is weakened. Kill all of them, and it is over.’


The character could very well be a faulty narator, and even he points out other posabilaties. Even it he is right on the money the setting of 40K means that it can be handwaved away in a later edition. Any head cannon is a real as the current setting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/21 23:05:47


   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





Northumberland

Surely the fact that it creates the shadow in the warp means that it isn't a warp entity. It wouldn't create something that disrupts its own powers.

Just because some Tyranids use psychic powers doesn't mean that they are using the warp either. It's from a completely different galaxy.

Why does everything 'magical' in 40k have to be warp related?

Don't forget that things in codexes are being described in such a manner that the players can understand what they are as well. And also an in-universe explanation isn't much help because characters in 40k know less than we as players do.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
# Olthannon's Oscillating Orchard of Opportunity #

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Shadow in the Warp isn't so much how it is to the Tyranids, but more how other races describe the influence on them and on the Warp as they see/interact with it. What it actually is "inside" the Shadow and how the Tyranids interact with it (if they even do overtly or consciously) is to confusing part

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Olthannon wrote:
Surely the fact that it creates the shadow in the warp means that it isn't a warp entity. It wouldn't create something that disrupts its own powers.

Just because some Tyranids use psychic powers doesn't mean that they are using the warp either. It's from a completely different galaxy.

Why does everything 'magical' in 40k have to be warp related?

Don't forget that things in codexes are being described in such a manner that the players can understand what they are as well. And also an in-universe explanation isn't much help because characters in 40k know less than we as players do.


Did you not read the thread or the quotes from the most recent Codex where the Tyranids are explicitly said to be using warp energy with their psychic powers? It does not get more clear than that.
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 Overread wrote:
Shadow in the Warp isn't so much how it is to the Tyranids, but more how other races describe the influence on them and on the Warp as they see/interact with it. What it actually is "inside" the Shadow and how the Tyranids interact with it (if they even do overtly or consciously) is to confusing part

We know they do the Shadow in the Warp consciously, as the Tyranids use the Shadow offensively and even seek to enhance its effects against psychic and daemonic foes.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




U.k

It strikes me from reading all the comments here and contradictions in GWs stuff, we aren’t supposed to have a definitive answer. They don’t KNOW in universe and we aren’t supposed to either. I think it’s better that way.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






People keep mentioning contradictions. Specifically which contradictions, and where?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Tyranids do and don't use the warp for psychic energy. It's complicated because often as not one claim might be a narrators voice; another might be an in-setting scientists theory. Furthermore the narrator might be telling the story from the point of vice of Imperial studies.

So as a result we can get contradictions without it breaking the lore because we rarely get the pure viewpoint of the Tyranids themselves.




This is before we deal with changes between editions and how GW presents and adapts their lore and lore drift

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





^This. One has to consider the unreliable narrator is a factor, both in codices and BL material. Some things are meant to be ambiguous.
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





Northumberland

Iracundus wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
Surely the fact that it creates the shadow in the warp means that it isn't a warp entity. It wouldn't create something that disrupts its own powers.

Just because some Tyranids use psychic powers doesn't mean that they are using the warp either. It's from a completely different galaxy.

Why does everything 'magical' in 40k have to be warp related?

Don't forget that things in codexes are being described in such a manner that the players can understand what they are as well. And also an in-universe explanation isn't much help because characters in 40k know less than we as players do.


Did you not read the thread or the quotes from the most recent Codex where the Tyranids are explicitly said to be using warp energy with their psychic powers? It does not get more clear than that.


Yes indeedy, I have not only read the thread but replied in it several times! If by quotes from the recent codex you mean the ones you specifically quoted saying "warp field and "warp energy" then I'd argue that doesn't necessarily automatically mean that the hive mind is a warp entity. The immaterium is where psychic energy resides and where creatures gain power from, that's certainly true. That's just what it's called in 40k. The Hive Mind can certainly generate and control the energy but so can the Emperor for instance.


I don't think anyone is denying that the Hive Mind isn't an extremely powerful psychic creature, just that it isn't a "warp entity". That suggests it was from that alternate plane of existence.


One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
# Olthannon's Oscillating Orchard of Opportunity #

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Maybe, similar to the way nids can consume any biomass and convert it into energy and materials for physical purposes, they can absorb extra dimensional energies for “psychic” purposes. Just what ever is around, and in the Milky Way there happens to be a huge amount of warp energy to tap into. So the shadow on the warp could be them absorbing warp energy for use in the materium.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Of course Nids use the warp, this conversation has been had so many times and many times people have mentioned that the novels, codexs etc. all mention that the nids use the warp but not in the same way as other races, its filtered through the hive mind.

As for the Hive mind being a warp entity, what do people mean by entity? as people may be talking across each other thinking it means something else?
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Warp entity. A creature born in the warp whos natural environment is the warp. It originates there. It can (maybe with enough power) manifest in the materium. But thats not where its from

Examples: chaos gods. Deamons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/22 19:34:04



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

ok, so the Hive mind is a warp entity by that definition since it can and does only exist in the warp, it cannot exist anywhere else and has manifest influence on real space when directed, this also fits the Demon primarchs and Nurgles rot plaguebearers, both of which did not originate from the warp per say but it is their natural environment now.

   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 Formosa wrote:
ok, so the Hive mind is a warp entity by that definition since it can and does only exist in the warp, it cannot exist anywhere else

The Tyranid race is its body, it exist both in the materium and immaterium. Similar to how a human exist in realspace but their soul projects into the warp.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Tyran wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
ok, so the Hive mind is a warp entity by that definition since it can and does only exist in the warp, it cannot exist anywhere else

The Tyranid race is its body, it exist both in the materium and immaterium. Similar to how a human exist in realspace but their soul projects into the warp.


Yup. The Hive Mind is not a entity born in the warp. it is an entity born of the collected gestalt consciousness of the tyranids. It is no more a creature of the warp than humans are.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
 
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