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 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I think the impulse to assume that "woman = n00b that needs things explained to her" is more reflexive misplaced chivalry than any kind of desire to make gaming a boys-only club

Okay, umm, is there any difference here other than intent? Like, they're both sexist and have an exclusionary effect, no?

No it's not different, but the practical solutions remain the same. Build familiarity, try to correct any problematic behavior, and move past it. First impressions and subsequent assumptions are poor things to go-on anyways.

stratigo wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
My experiences with women in the tabletop hobby:

There are two types:

1. Enjoys the hobby on her own.
2. Is the girlfriend of a guy who participates in tabletop games. Should the relation end so will her interest in the hobby.

Apart from this my local GW store manager is a woman who lives and breathes the hobby. She is very dedicated and thus managed to outshine all previous store managers in my home town who were all male. With the exception of her only very few women were regular customers in the GW store during the pre-Corona era.

A couple of years ago I frequented a youth club for 12 months to do intro games for new players. Two of them were women and both times it wasn´t 40K to be played but Blood Bowl. In my entire hobby time (25 years) I haven´t played 40K against a woman. Not because of gatekeeping but women are rare as unicorns in this hobby as they tend to prefer doing other things in their spare time.

The reason women are rare is the gatekeeping. Heck whole society can get in on it. Used to be a time when it was asserted women just don't like DnD. Lo and behold, in the years 2021 dnd has flourished amongst female players.

But for something like warhammer, tween disdain and creeping, hard to be a lady in a game club.

Just have to get lucky I suppose that your club isn't crummy in this way.

 Overread wrote:

 Mistresspaige wrote:
Hey guys I’m quite new to the whole 40k scene but after watching the hilarious Text to Speech show on YouTube last year I’ve been interested in trying out the game itself. However from a lot of groups I’ve met they’ve been maybe not hostile per day but a little gate keeping. How can I join in the fun on the hobby when I’m looked upon as not belonging? Is there anything I can do to make the community more welcoming to me?

Wargame groups, whilst being a social activity, can tend to sometimes have a higher proportion of people who are less experienced at being social. So some of it isn't that they are gate-keeping because you're a woman, its just part of them not being as social as some others. They can be equally "unwelcoming" or such to men as well. It's generally not intentional and in my experience most gamer clubs are more than happy to have new people turn up. Sometimes they don't have a designated person to welcome and orientate new people into the group so there can be a bit of a tricky moment for anyone getting into a new club.

I echo what others have said above, go forth and play. Chances are once the models are down and the dice are rolling many of the insecurities will start to melt away without any great work from either side. In my experience the best way at a gamer group to break this ice is through games themselves.



Now you might bump into some issues like people wanting to play 2K point games or only play against "painted armies" and such even when you are new, that's just them, but you do no harm at all in asking around and finding games.

Gaming is a great hobby with so many different aspects to it.

Something I have seen a lot of ladies who have tried to get involved which, uh, no dudes have, is really awkward flirting and other types of thirsting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One actual answer I can think of requires a lot of space and money.

And that is build your own game room and invite people to play with you, that way you can curate who you interact with.

I been slowly building to that before my life became a daily nightmare

You are comparing apples with oranges. To play D&D you need a pencil, an eraser and a sheet of paper. Done.

To play 40K you need to invest a lot of time in your models: Building, priming and painting. This is something women generally loathe to do. Back in the day three girlfriends visited me and commented about my glass cabinet full of painted minis. These were their responses:

1. Geez, that´s a lot of time investment. You won´t be able to do much else.
2. Waste of time.
3. I could potentially paint a few minis for display myself but never such an obscene amount of models.

 Strg Alt wrote:

3. I could potentially paint a few minis for display myself but never such an obscene amount of models.

My wife's thought on my collection in a nutshell.

Honestly surprised this thread has remained as civil as it has.

 Strg Alt wrote:

1. Geez, that´s a lot of time investment. You won´t be able to do much else.
2. Waste of time.
3. I could potentially paint a few minis for display myself but never such an obscene amount of models.

The first one was my wife's initial reaction to TTGs after a demo game of Wolsung - that this hobby is cool and all, but requires too much commitment. Few years later she got hooked on Zombicide, I dusted my 2nd ed 40k collection, we played a few games and now she is an avid painter and owns a total of 5k points of Tyranids and GSC .

 Strg Alt wrote:


1. Geez, that´s a lot of time investment. You won´t be able to do much else.
2. Waste of time.
3. I could potentially paint a few minis for display myself but never such an obscene amount of models.

My wife:

4. 'That's 'how many' pairs of trainers?'

It's a miracle I got her into bloodbowl. :p

To be fair most of our female friends think my cabinets of dudes are cool nd it's something to value and appreciate- it's not their thing. One does jigsaws and totally 'gets' the hobby/time/relaxing thing.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I think the impulse to assume that "woman = n00b that needs things explained to her" is more reflexive misplaced chivalry than any kind of desire to make gaming a boys-only club

Okay, umm, is there any difference here other than intent? Like, they're both sexist and have an exclusionary effect, no?

The difference is in how you deal with it. If people are being accidentally sexist just showing up and confronting those attitudes with evidence that they're wrong might actually help. If people are being deliberately exclusionary that's not really going to work and I think you'd be better off trying to find a different group of people to play with.

 Mistresspaige wrote:
Hey guys I’m quite new to the whole 40k scene but after watching the hilarious Text to Speech show on YouTube last year I’ve been interested in trying out the game itself. However from a lot of groups I’ve met they’ve been maybe not hostile per day but a little gate keeping. How can I join in the fun on the hobby when I’m looked upon as not belonging? Is there anything I can do to make the community more welcoming to me?

Hi! My recommendation would be to:
A: join an organized league that issues a match schedule or operates as a round robin. From experience, it can be hard to break into a new community since members of the community know each other and organize games with each other causing outsiders to continue to be outsiders. Being on a match roster will go a long way towards getting games, since they don't have an excuse for not playing you.
B: have everything about your game at a higher quality than others in the community. Have more of your models painted, aim for a higher quality, and play a better game. Win.
C: refuse any and all advances. This might go without saying, but it still deserves saying.

 Strg Alt wrote:
You are comparing apples with oranges. To play D&D you need a pencil, an eraser and a sheet of paper. Done.

To play 40K you need to invest a lot of time in your models: Building, priming and painting. This is something women generally loathe to do. Back in the day three girlfriends visited me and commented about my glass cabinet full of painted minis. These were their responses:

1. Geez, that´s a lot of time investment. You won´t be able to do much else.
2. Waste of time.
3. I could potentially paint a few minis for display myself but never such an obscene amount of models.

First of all, that's not a "women" thing, most men aren't gonna take the time or money to get a painted army either. It's more a general nerd thing and your experiences are anecdotal. I've got a friend who has gotten every girlfriend he's ever had interested in 40k and spends time together with them painting minis.

Secondly, I think the actual issue is with the environments of FLGS's. Many of us probably know women who are into geek stuff but aren't interested in going to the FLGS to play DND because of the way they get singled out there. Magnify that 10-fold with 40k, where the investment is much higher and where playing basically requires you to have a good community who won't alienate them and make them drop the hobby before they've even built up an army.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
You are comparing apples with oranges. To play D&D you need a pencil, an eraser and a sheet of paper. Done.

To play 40K you need to invest a lot of time in your models: Building, priming and painting. This is something women generally loathe to do. Back in the day three girlfriends visited me and commented about my glass cabinet full of painted minis. These were their responses:

1. Geez, that´s a lot of time investment. You won´t be able to do much else.
2. Waste of time.
3. I could potentially paint a few minis for display myself but never such an obscene amount of models.

First of all, that's not a "women" thing, most men aren't gonna take the time or money to get a painted army either. It's more a general nerd thing and your experiences are anecdotal. I've got a friend who has gotten every girlfriend he's ever had interested in 40k and spends time together with them painting minis.

Secondly, I think the actual issue is with the environments of FLGS's. Many of us probably know women who are into geek stuff but aren't interested in going to the FLGS to play DND because of the way they get singled out there. Magnify that 10-fold with 40k, where the investment is much higher and where playing basically requires you to have a good community who won't alienate them and make them drop the hobby before they've even built up an army.

Ah, someone always tries to insinuate that men and women tend to have the same hobbies/interests. Sorry to rain on your parade dude but I have news for you:

They don´t.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
You are comparing apples with oranges. To play D&D you need a pencil, an eraser and a sheet of paper. Done.

To play 40K you need to invest a lot of time in your models: Building, priming and painting. This is something women generally loathe to do. Back in the day three girlfriends visited me and commented about my glass cabinet full of painted minis. These were their responses:

1. Geez, that´s a lot of time investment. You won´t be able to do much else.
2. Waste of time.
3. I could potentially paint a few minis for display myself but never such an obscene amount of models.

First of all, that's not a "women" thing, most men aren't gonna take the time or money to get a painted army either. It's more a general nerd thing and your experiences are anecdotal. I've got a friend who has gotten every girlfriend he's ever had interested in 40k and spends time together with them painting minis.

Secondly, I think the actual issue is with the environments of FLGS's. Many of us probably know women who are into geek stuff but aren't interested in going to the FLGS to play DND because of the way they get singled out there. Magnify that 10-fold with 40k, where the investment is much higher and where playing basically requires you to have a good community who won't alienate them and make them drop the hobby before they've even built up an army.

Ah, someone always tries to insinuate that men and women tend to have the same hobbies/interests. Sorry to rain on your parade dude but I have news for you:

They don´t.

Ah, someone always tries to insinuate that men and women have some kind of biological difference that makes them have different hobbies/interests. Sorry to rain on your parade, dude, but I have news for you.

They don't. Any difference in hobby interest is personal, not gender-based. There's lots of men I've talked to who don't want to play Warhammer. There's lots of women I've talked to who do. It's personal choice and societal pressure, including gatekeeping.

You're putting words in his mouth, though, he never said anything like that, merely stating his experience.
I'm agreeing with both of you, funnily enough. On the one Hand strg alts experience is not unheard of, but the underlying reasons why there are few women in the hobby is a different question altogether and I think we can agree that it's not a biological thing.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
You're putting words in his mouth, though, he never said anything like that, merely stating his experience.
I'm agreeing with both of you, funnily enough. On the one Hand strg alts experience is not unheard of, but the underlying reasons why there are few women in the hobby is a different question altogether and I think we can agree that it's not a biological thing.

I used the word "insinuated" correctly.

I hope we can all agree it's not biological, that "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus" or some equally outdated, sexist bullhonky. I'll believe it when I see it, though.

 Strg Alt wrote:


Ah, someone always tries to insinuate that men and women tend to have the same hobbies/interests. Sorry to rain on your parade dude but I have news for you:

They don´t.

Plenty have the same hobbies. While some things tend to visually lean more heavily one way of the other, (from my personal experience in knowing hundreds of gamers) they just tend to enjoy them in different ways. The many women I've known to be into things like D&D, Magic, and a few for Warhammer tend to stick to their own personal playgroups. People they know and trust, so not a lot of people outside those small groups know about them and just assume they don't exist, whereas I see far more guys out and about at FLGS's playing there. When I've spoken to them about this, it's often a result of social pressure, feeling like as women they're not supposed to have these hobbies, or feeling the kinds of things the OP has when they've gone out on their own to experience them.

I've been the only guy in an all women D&D group before and the feeling of being the odd one out over and above being the "new person" in a group of friends can be pretty intimidating, even when you know there's not kind of gender discrimination going on.

My wife plays Magic and other board games with me on a regular basis, she's not into it enough to go out to events on her own, but she enjoys playing with me and my other gamer friends when they are over.

In my group of friends way back in High School a few of the women I knew were big Halo fans, and a bunch of us played magic together.

We had a few women who were regulars top finishers in Magic tournaments in out FLGS for a number of years before I stopped going out to tournaments due to life getting in the way.

Just because you haven't had personal experience with women in your hobbies, doesn't mean that they don't exist. Just because demographics skew one way or another, doesn't mean that "women do this and men do that"

I expect that, as pointed out above, people can be weird. Awkwardness around girls is a thing. Incels exist, and do leave their basements for game nights, unprepared perhaps for mixed company.

Truth be told, I would also expect to be treated somewhat awkwardly by some people in this hobby in a new group or community, and I am six feet of cis male in his fifties having been hanging around games stores and comics shops since middle school.

I would say get stuck in, do you, follow your heart and vision, and all will work out in the end.

Fun story time.
I once played in a league at a GW store. One of my games in this league was with one of the few female players I've ever encountered. Any weirdness or awkwardness she may have detected from me had nothing to do with her gender. I was weird and awkward around her because of her foul breath and general lack of hygiene.
Girl gamers can have geek-reek every bit as bad as boy gamers.

Having to travel for work, I often find myself carting my army to whatever game store within an hours drive looking for an opponent.

Even with coming fully prepared with a painted army and willing to play any army or playstyle it can be damn impossible to get a game.

A lot of gamers are turds who spend 99% of their time being a "gamer" and only 1% gaming.

As far as their behavior once they do agree to a game. I find just knowing the lingo when you ask, do they want a casual game, competitive or otherwise seems to help.

Of course telling my opponent that I am looking to get a practice game in for an upcoming tourney or GT tends to get past all the kid glove scenarios.

I'm not sure what anyone is expecting to get out of this thread other than bad takes, or useless advice.
Just be good to everyone, and acknowledge good intentions. You can't change the entire hobby, but BEING there is important.

 Octopoid wrote:


Ah, someone always tries to insinuate that men and women have some kind of biological difference that makes them have different hobbies/interests. Sorry to rain on your parade, dude, but I have news for you.

They don't. Any difference in hobby interest is personal, not gender-based. There's lots of men I've talked to who don't want to play Warhammer. There's lots of women I've talked to who do. It's personal choice and societal pressure, including gatekeeping.

That's a bold claim.

I recommend playing in private with a group of friends. I've never played at the store and never will, and I'm a cis male. The whole store gaming scene is a big turn off for me.

 Mistresspaige wrote:
Hey guys I’m quite new to the whole 40k scene but after watching the hilarious Text to Speech show on YouTube last year I’ve been interested in trying out the game itself. However from a lot of groups I’ve met they’ve been maybe not hostile per day but a little gate keeping. How can I join in the fun on the hobby when I’m looked upon as not belonging? Is there anything I can do to make the community more welcoming to me?

It sucks that this continues to happen and it also sucks that you've had replies to this on this thread from people just dismissing it because they don't see it as an issue. I've come across it a lot with friends in the past when I used to go into hobby stores more frequently. More recently, if I go into a store with my wife and it's just such a crappy experience. Or worse if she's ever gone into a store by herself.

I would suggest maybe Dakka isn't the best place to get a good answer, I wouldn't be asking guys on here how best to fit in.

You are you and don't let any weaselly little nerds ruin your experience with a fun hobby.

First off, ask yourself what you want out of the hobby. Are you more interested in the painting and modelling or the gaming or just everything?

Because going into hobby stores doesn't necessarily equate to being part of the warhammer community.

If it is what you want to do, definitely find yourself a different group, there's plenty out there and hopefully with more friendly people.

Best bit of advice I can give is to ask a few women hobbyists online, there's a fair few on instagram. They'd be more than happy to chat to you and help you out. I think you'd get a much better answer.

Lastly, hopefully it doesn't discourage you. It's a fun thing to be a part of, but like most things in life there's plenty of arseholes just desperate to ruin things.

Strg Alt wrote:You are comparing apples with oranges. To play D&D you need a pencil, an eraser and a sheet of paper. Done.

To play 40K you need to invest a lot of time in your models: Building, priming and painting.

Not really. You don't need to prime or paint just to play, no more so than you need to prime and paint a model for your player character in D&D. All you *need* to play 40k are the rules, measures, dice, and models (and those models could very well just be unpainted grey plastic), and that's not even including things like Tabletop Sim.

This is something women generally loathe to do.

In your experience, maybe, but in *mine*, I've found that non-women are just as likely to be adverse to all the painting an modelling too. So, gotta slap a citation needed on that.

Back in the day three girlfriends visited me and commented about my glass cabinet full of painted minis. These were their responses:

1. Geez, that´s a lot of time investment. You won´t be able to do much else.
2. Waste of time.
3. I could potentially paint a few minis for display myself but never such an obscene amount of models.

In the present, everyone I've recently shown my minis to has expressed how impressed they are, and valued the creative display on hand, and otherwise simply enjoyed the spectacle - I've had no distinction, male, female, or enby, in one group feeling put off or making some kind of "haha lol what a loser" comment. Sounds like you had an isolated bad experience.

Octopoid wrote:Any difference in hobby interest is personal, not gender-based. There's lots of men I've talked to who don't want to play Warhammer. There's lots of women I've talked to who do. It's personal choice and societal pressure, including gatekeeping.

Exactly. This idea that there's an innate gender bias is simply oudated and incorrect. Just look at the amount of things that have been reclaimed by women and non-male identities that were once only viewed as "man's spaces".

Tawnis wrote:Just because you haven't had personal experience with women in your hobbies, doesn't mean that they don't exist. Just because demographics skew one way or another, doesn't mean that "women do this and men do that"

And echoed.

Olthannon wrote:It sucks that this continues to happen and it also sucks that you've had replies to this on this thread from people just dismissing it because they don't see it as an issue. I've come across it a lot with friends in the past when I used to go into hobby stores more frequently. More recently, if I go into a store with my wife and it's just such a crappy experience. Or worse if she's ever gone into a store by herself.

I would suggest maybe Dakka isn't the best place to get a good answer, I wouldn't be asking guys on here how best to fit in.

I would also echo this too.

Best bit of advice I can give is to ask a few women hobbyists online, there's a fair few on instagram. They'd be more than happy to chat to you and help you out. I think you'd get a much better answer.

Twitter as well has a solid amount of women hobbyists, who are very familiar with the feelings you're feeling - their insight may be valuable!

This thread is funny to me because I don't think its anything to do with sexism and all about perception.

A few years ago we had a guy join our group. He was in his teens and we're all mostly grown adults in the 35-50 range and he refused to come to any of our houses/meet ups to play. He insisted that we have games at his parents house in his sisters bedroom and just didn't seem to understand that a group of middle aged men wouldn't want to go to the house of similarly aged people to play toy soldiers with their teenage son in their daughters bedroom because it is frankly a bit weird.

I'm sure from his perspective we seemed like a bunch of donkey-caves (despite us explaining the potential awkwardness to him a few times) but sorry, theres no way to make that situation not weird.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Exactly. This idea that there's an innate gender bias is simply oudated and incorrect. Just look at the amount of things that have been reclaimed by women and non-male identities that were once only viewed as "man's spaces".

Such as? Please don't claim video games.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Exactly. This idea that there's an innate gender bias is simply oudated and incorrect. Just look at the amount of things that have been reclaimed by women and non-male identities that were once only viewed as "man's spaces".

Such as? Please don't claim video games.

As something as more of a personal interest to me, western theatre, specifically. There was once a point in time, long ago, but still serving my point, where theatre was regarded as for men only, and theatre was dominated by male audiences. At the time, the same arguments were made, that it simply was not a thing for women - but you'd be hard pressed now to claim it.
Similarly, the superhero genre is incredibly popular with audiences across the gender spectrum, not just the traditionally male audience.
Additionally, fields of academia and further education were historically barred to women. The same gender-essentialist arguments were made, and were disproven.
The same can be said for politics, sports, military service, etc etc - it really is a rather pervasive issue.

I'm also curious why you didn't want video games bringing up?

 Sim-Life wrote:

Such as? Please don't claim video games.

Football, for startes. A pure male thing in Europe until 10 years ago when only in Germany, Norway and Sweden women football was (barely) popular.

Last week 45k people attending the FA women's cup final. Home games for Juventus Women in Champions League all sold out in Italy, and they were played in the male's stadium. Games for the female national team in Italy are broadcasted in the same channel that broadcasts games for the male team, something that was considered science fiction before 2019.

Anything about fantasy also. Until the 80s, and maybe 90s it was a pure male thing. Now we probably have more female LOTR or Game of Thrones fans than male ones. A huge portion of modern fantasy literature is purely oriented towards female readers now, and written by female writers.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Exactly. This idea that there's an innate gender bias is simply oudated and incorrect. Just look at the amount of things that have been reclaimed by women and non-male identities that were once only viewed as "man's spaces".

Such as? Please don't claim video games.

As something as more of a personal interest to me, western theatre, specifically. There was once a point in time, long ago, but still serving my point, where theatre was regarded as for men only, and theatre was dominated by male audiences. At the time, the same arguments were made, that it simply was not a thing for women - but you'd be hard pressed now to claim it.
Similarly, the superhero genre is incredibly popular with audiences across the gender spectrum, not just the traditionally male audience.
Additionally, fields of academia and further education were historically barred to women. The same gender-essentialist arguments were made, and were disproven.
The same can be said for politics, sports, military service, etc etc - it really is a rather pervasive issue.

I'm also curious why you didn't want video games bringing up?

Just opening a space to women doesn't make them "reclaimed". Working sewers is open to women but that doesn't make it "reclaimed" because women tend to not be very interested in clearing fatbergs out of gakky tunnels. Warhammer isn't barred to women but I'd be interested to see your arguments as to how its been "reclaimed" by women when they're still a vast minority in the hobby. Also I excluded video games because almost every time someone claims that women are at least half or a majority of video game players its based on a biased study that considers having Candy Crush installed on your phone as a video game player. Not to mention "reclaimed" implies they were somehow kicked out of it once and then excluded.

Also what the hell is "the superhero genre"? I assume you mean comic book movies?

 Blackie wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Such as? Please don't claim video games.

Football, for startes. A pure male thing in Europe until 10 years ago when only in Germany, Norway and Sweden women football was (barely) popular.

Last week 45k people attending the FA women's cup final. Home games for Juventus Women in Champions League all sold out in Italy, and they were played in the male's stadium. Games for the female national team in Italy are broadcasted in the same channel that broadcasts games for the male team, something that was considered science fiction before 2019.

Anything about fantasy also. Until the 80s, and maybe 90s it was a pure male thing. Now we probably have more female LOTR or Game of Thrones fans than male ones. A huge portion of modern fantasy literature is purely oriented towards female readers now, and written by female writers.

This topic actually deserves its own post to be fair.

As someone who actively supports women's sports (when I met the lady who is now my wife, she played rugby. These days we are both lapsed crossfitters and she will still crush people with weights and pull ups)


I think ten years is incorrect but I know what youre trying to say. The history of women's football goes back a hundred or more years at this point. Women and girls have always played, especially at the grassroots level. With.some sports it's always had a bit more support and sometimes from surprising places - ironically good old Catholic Ireland with all its religious repression a hundred years ago did some good things with camogie back in the 1920s. It's not that women haven't played, its just not been promoted until recently and in fairness this has improved hugely. In some places (England in particular) more than others.

And while there has been a huge push to support and promote the women's game (and I am thinking more of rugby, out of my own familiarity with it, and for the record I support this wholeheartedly- its great to see inspiring female players and its great to see young girls looking to these female players as idols) which now has TV coverage, sone professional players etc and the quality of the game on display iz miles ahead of where it was ten years ago. It's Still a different game though with far less of the physicality and less physicsl prowess on display as you'd see in the mens game and for a lot of people that's a negative. That said,it would be a lie to say it has the same uptake amongst girls as it does amongst guys and likewise for the following of the sport. When Mrs deadnight played, the number of active teams was dwarfed by the number of mens teams. The women's league was 'national' as teams were so thin on the ground and they'd often struggle to field 15 players for a game and would have to travel half a day for a game. Make no mistake things are a lot better now but the number of women playing and the number of teams is still dwarfed by men.

I went to see Scotland v Japan at the rugby recently (women's game and the men's game). The women played out back at the Edinburgh stadium and had maybe 2000 fans. The mens game was packed into the main stadium (70,000 people) and I don't doubt the viewing figures would be equally skewed. Funnily enough the attendance was very gender-mixed so please don't try and imply I'm saying women aren't interested in the sport.

Like rugby, in terms of participation at various levels, we'll never have 50/50 split in ttgs (as opposed to the whole gaming ecosystem inclusive of boardgames etc) and while I am absolutely encouraging to any one (male or female) who wants to take part in the hobby, I don't think we will ever have a scenario where this will change. Specific to ttgs in particular as opposed to other gaming media. Its not so much the hobby component (girls do a lot of hobbycrafting) bit imo, the subject matter (I have female friends who will happily throw down for blood bowl or shadespire, but full in mass battle games and 'eternal war' settings tropes seems less appealing) and the social dynamics that are a big barrier and this isn't really the case in board games or rpgs (or others) which have a far stronger and more intimate social component and the games have a stronger story component (especially for rpgs). With ttgs you can have 50 guys in a room and 25 islands. Its all 'bi'ness' as chloe price would say. Often the 'community' aspect is very superficial and paper thin. In my experience with female sports, and female teams, the social aspect is hugely important.

Get more girls in, have more games that cater to different tastes, especially more casual ones (as opposed to hardcore, heavily technical ones) to get more casually interested folks through the door and maybe things will change. I am not optimistic though I encourage it.

Deadnight wrote:


I think ten years is incorrect but I know what youre trying to say. The history of women's football goes back a hundred or more years at this point. Women and girls have always played. It's just not been promoted until recently and in fairness this has improved hugely. In some places (England in particular) more than others.

Absolutely, that's what I meant. Women football in Europe didn't have any media coverage until a few years ago. In Italy women football is still amateur sport until the end of the season, it'll turn into professionism only in 2022. And yet it currently gets a solid coverage while no other amateur sport, including male ones or even any other professional female sport, gets the same kind of attention. That's exponential growth.

But that's just an example. Innate gender bias is definitely a concept of the past.

The main reason why there aren't many women in the hobby IMHO is related to the fact that women on average don't have the same salary and the same amount of free time than males. This hobby requires a massive investment in terms of money and time spent, which is gatekeeping for lots of women. People's attitude is far less gatekeeping I think, as in RPGs women have significant numbers and the community of RPGs is pretty much the same kind of people that do miniatures wargames.

Deadnight wrote:
...bit imo, the subject matter (I have female friends who will happily throw down for blood bowl or shadespire, but full in mass battle games and 'eternal war' settings tropes seems less appealing) and the social dynamics that are a big barrier and this isn't really the case in board games or rpgs (or others) which have a far stronger and more intimate social component and the games have a stronger story component (especially for rpgs). With ttgs you can have 50 guys in a room and 25 islands. Its all 'bi'ness' as chloe price would say. Often the 'community' aspect is very superficial and paper thin. In my experience with female sports, and female teams, the social aspect is hugely important.

Get more girls in, have more games that cater to different tastes, especially more casual ones (as opposed to hardcore, heavily technical ones) to get more casually interested folks through the door and maybe things will change. I am not optimistic though I encourage it.

Interestingly there was a period when female wargaming was a popular middle class pursuit (at least in the English speaking world, no idea about others) and that was in the pre-WW1 period (wargames in the drawing room with the guests darling?). Plenty of articles/books to read on this but my understanding was western societies pushed militarism and military adventures in support of their imperial policies and a more accepted 'glorious' portrayal of war. This participation collapsed following WW1 (for men and women) and the very different experience of war and its consequences. It regained some popularity with boys but I guess the overwhelming societal view kept women out.

See toy soldiers getting mainstream approval again and just like comics and the like you would see an increase in participation of both genders. Sadly I reckon the poor quality of many GW games outside of their core targeted age groups and the block they can be for people to try other games means we would be dependant on them launching games with wider appeal.

 Blackie wrote:


The main reason why there aren't many women in the hobby IMHO is related to the fact that women on average don't have the same salary and the same amount of free time than males. This hobby requires a massive investment in terms of money and time spent, which is gatekeeping for lots of women. People's attitude is far less gatekeeping I think, as in RPGs women have significant numbers and the community of RPGs is pretty much the same kind of people that do miniatures wargames.

Honestly I don't know if that's fully true. I'm not arguing that inequality in pay isn't still a thing; but the concept of money and time in Warhammer being barriers above and beyond other hobbies. I think ANY hobby taken seriously will eat up both resources in good measure. Sure some hobbies you can get started with much more cheaply; and others might require less time; but any hobby can take up both in equal and greater amounts than warhammer. Wargamers like to talk a lot about how expensive the hobby is (ok ok how expensive GW is mostly) but in the great scheme of things its not actually much beyond many other hobbies. Lego kits cost just as much; golf clubs you can spend a fortune on just one club; musical instruments can make both pale in comparison. Meanwhile things like drawing, painting, knitting, bird watching, hiking, sports - all those can eat just as many if not more hours as building and painting models.

It's more about choosing to make something your hobby and finding the motivation, money and time for it alongside other things; than it is that those things are pure barriers in themselves unique to that hobby or interest. OF course there are extremes and those extremes depend greatly on a persons background, income and more. However I'd argue that Warhammer isn't on the vastly extreme scale - at least for people in what most would consider a middle-class income.