Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Irkjoe wrote:

macluvin wrote:
The science is not BS because it does a better job of explaining more phenomena than the explanations we had before. Just because you choose not to understand the science does not mean it doesn’t make sense or is objectively flawed.

I don’t think the laws of nature care if you understand, and you are choosing to ignore thousands of years of Tradition because somebody wrote a paper claiming girls can be boys.

Tradition is not a biological construct it is a social construct. Thank you for proving my point. Besides, it’s not just a paper. It is many papers, and the cumulative product of over a century of forward progress having applied the golden standard of logic. That is how the scientific method works.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Lo and behold, in the years 2021 dnd has flourished amongst female players.

Is it though? Or is it just the ones that do play get the most signal? I play D&D with one girl, but in all the hobby stores I've been to across my state I've almost never encountered a young girl or a grown woman. I see pictures from events and tournaments and they're either not present, or stick out as one among dozens and dozens.

So, again, has it really flourished, or is the spotlight just being shone upon them thereby making the perception seem that there are so many more of them?

My D&D (and general purpose gaming group) is an even split, 3 men and 3 women - the DM is a woman running a homebrew campaign.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
I'm not sure what anyone is expecting to get out of this thread other than bad takes, or useless advice.

Yes. I think what OP has is a local problem, and if you want to play locally, you're going to need to address the social dynamics there. Having a lousy gaming store experience is more the normal than the exception, I think though :/

Dragging in some other friends was maybe good advice, though.

 Mistresspaige wrote:
Hey guys I’m quite new to the whole 40k scene but after watching the hilarious Text to Speech show on YouTube last year I’ve been interested in trying out the game itself. However from a lot of groups I’ve met they’ve been maybe not hostile per day but a little gate keeping. How can I join in the fun on the hobby when I’m looked upon as not belonging? Is there anything I can do to make the community more welcoming to me?

It's tough, there's no easy solution when many clubs are so male-dominated. Probably your best bet is to just dive in and from there try to figure out which players are going to be the easiest to get along with and make them your core circle. Changing views is a difficult, arduous process so probably easier to just try and filter people by what they already believe so you have a positive experience.

And never feel like you have to be friends with everyone, or really even be 'accepted' by the whole community. If your club isn't tiny you're going to be able to just avoid people you don't care for, or who don't care for you. That's fine and good and not worth troubling oneself over- there's a good chunk of our local player base I will never interact with outside of events and it works wonders for enjoying the hobby.

Also, this thread makes me sad.

MistressPaige, are you showing up to games with Imperial Knights? Titans? Super-heavies? Sandworms?

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:


Ah, someone always tries to insinuate that men and women tend to have the same hobbies/interests. Sorry to rain on your parade dude but I have news for you:

They don´t.

Plenty have the same hobbies. While some things tend to visually lean more heavily one way of the other, (from my personal experience in knowing hundreds of gamers) they just tend to enjoy them in different ways. The many women I've known to be into things like D&D, Magic, and a few for Warhammer tend to stick to their own personal playgroups. People they know and trust, so not a lot of people outside those small groups know about them and just assume they don't exist, whereas I see far more guys out and about at FLGS's playing there. When I've spoken to them about this, it's often a result of social pressure, feeling like as women they're not supposed to have these hobbies, or feeling the kinds of things the OP has when they've gone out on their own to experience them.

I've been the only guy in an all women D&D group before and the feeling of being the odd one out over and above being the "new person" in a group of friends can be pretty intimidating, even when you know there's not kind of gender discrimination going on.

My wife plays Magic and other board games with me on a regular basis, she's not into it enough to go out to events on her own, but she enjoys playing with me and my other gamer friends when they are over.

In my group of friends way back in High School a few of the women I knew were big Halo fans, and a bunch of us played magic together.

We had a few women who were regulars top finishers in Magic tournaments in out FLGS for a number of years before I stopped going out to tournaments due to life getting in the way.

Just because you haven't had personal experience with women in your hobbies, doesn't mean that they don't exist. Just because demographics skew one way or another, doesn't mean that "women do this and men do that"

Strange, when I take a stroll at the river all fishermen tend to be male. Guess female fishermen must hide from me as soon as they see me coming.
What about soccer fans? Majority of people who watch/play it are males. Ballet? Majority of ballet dancers are female.

And now back to our 40K topic. Who wants to argue with me about the fact that the vast majority of 40K players on this planet are male? Who? Those people will probably also want to prove me wrong when I say water is wet.

And there goes the point that you totally missed.

Yes, there are more men that play 40k than women, a lot more, that was never the point. The point was about your blanket statement that men and women don't have the same hobbies and interests based solely on their gender. That is what was false.

Moriarty wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
OP should just be glad that the group she found was one of the ones full of sexists, and not one full of Nazis...

Hey! Don’t forget the ones full of sexist Nazi’s!

It's a well known fact that Nazi's are ALL about gender equality...

Racerguy180 wrote:

Moriarty wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
OP should just be glad that the group she found was one of the ones full of sexists, and not one full of Nazis...

Hey! Don’t forget the ones full of sexist Nazi’s!

It's a well known fact that Nazi's are ALL about gender equality...

Oh, absolutely. They were committed to a levelling policy :x)

If anyone gives you flakk for any reason, they are not welcome in the community.

We need MORE PLAYERS.

Some of the best painted miniatures I've seen were painted by women from our FLGS (which was sadly shut down 2 years ago)

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
If anyone gives you flakk for any reason, they are not welcome in the community.

We need MORE PLAYERS.

Some of the best painted miniatures I've seen were painted by women from our FLGS (which was sadly shut down 2 years ago)

The issue is that discrimination most often occurs without the discriminating party being aware of it. It might even be benevolent in intention, but still makes the party that was discriminated against uncomfortable. Be firm but polite and point out behaviors you do not enjoy as you see them, and be persistent in wedging yourself into a local community. As you become normalized in your group you will see these behaviors naturally curb as well. And if enough women deal with the awkward and uncomfortable feelings of playing with people that believe women are biologically averse to playing tabletop games that perception will be progressively less influential on their attitudes and therefore behaviors regarding women.

Progress is a slow and painful process. Changing the attitudes an implicit biases that ultimately created that hostile environment in the hobby for women requires either enculturation, which begins at a young age, and requires new generations to mature, or for the people that are exhibiting these behaviors to learn what they are doing is wrong but it’s not their fault, are willing to accept that they are wrong, and are willing to understand how their behavior may be shaped by implicit biases. Unfortunately the most problematic people are the least likely to do any of that, so enculturation is probably the best bet. Case in point: this thread, and any female space marine thread. In either case it involves women being willing to endure that gatekeeping behavior and to wedge themselves into the hobby to overcome the social pressures that keep women out. It will be uncomfortable for everyone involved.

macluvin wrote:

Tradition is not a biological construct it is a social construct. Thank you for proving my point. Besides, it’s not just a paper. It is many papers, and the cumulative product of over a century of forward progress having applied the golden standard of logic. That is how the scientific method works.

So the science can't be wrong? It can't be based on stupid assumptions, be politically motivated, or just be outright propaganda? And all modern science is logical truth while the prior understanding and practices of mankind were just wrong the entire time, not rooted in any inherent human behavior or biology? Men and women have no distinct natural inclinations that resulted in tradition?

 Irkjoe wrote:

macluvin wrote:

Tradition is not a biological construct it is a social construct. Thank you for proving my point. Besides, it’s not just a paper. It is many papers, and the cumulative product of over a century of forward progress having applied the golden standard of logic. That is how the scientific method works.

So the science can't be wrong? It can't be based on stupid assumptions, be politically motivated, or just be outright propaganda? And all modern science is logical truth while the prior understanding and practices of mankind were just wrong the entire time, not rooted in any inherent human behavior or biology? Men and women have no distinct natural inclinations that resulted in tradition?

The reason science is more right than tradition ever will be is because scientists operate under the assumption that they can be wrong. Science has been flawed in the past. The scientific method is the process by which people separate biases from opinions to generate to the best of our current understanding, the most probable truth. The nazis were notorious for attacking intellectual movements and especially science because unless the science was of benefit to their beliefs or produced material that they found beneficiary, it was useless. When science and politics clash, it’s usually the science that is correct.

Of course biases can find their way in the methodology, but we’ve created standards that mitigate them. The biases are not in the methodology of scientific research and experimentation; they will be found in the conclusion that we choose to make based on the results. Using what we find to be the conclusion, we can try to apply it to other things. This is why replicability of results is important for scientific research and experimentation to be worth anything in the arcadeic world. If the research was biased by political ideology or stupid assumptions then when other research is conducted with it, then we would discover that we got some things conceptually wrong.

That is why it is far more probable that after decades and centuries of testing and developing our understanding, that the current science is most likely to be accurate than our understanding of these things a hundred years ago, or 200 or a thousand. We definitely got a lot of it wrong back then, and we probably got a bit wrong now to be honest.

This brings me to another point; I trust science way more than tradition or other knowledge because science is self critical and operates under the assumption that it can be flawed and wrong. It challenges its own results. You, on the other hand, hold that your opinion is an absolute. Science has tested and used to support your opinion, but science has long since identified how personal biases have had a significant effect both on the methodology and the perception of the outcome, and upon further experimentation and research found your explanation to be wanting as it does a poor job of explaining a lot of other behaviors and phenomena.

macluvin wrote:


That is why it is far more probable that after decades and centuries of testing and developing our understanding, that the current science is most likely to be accurate than our understanding of these things a hundred years ago, or 200 or a thousand. We definitely got a lot of it wrong back then, and we probably got a bit wrong now to be honest.

This brings me to another point; I trust science way more than tradition or other knowledge because science is self critical and operates under the assumption that it can be flawed and wrong. It challenges its own results. You, on the other hand, hold that your opinion is an absolute. Science has tested and used to support your opinion, but science has long since identified how personal biases have had a significant effect both on the methodology and the perception of the outcome, and upon further experimentation and research found your explanation to be wanting as it does a poor job of explaining a lot of other behaviors and phenomena.

I'm a bit lost here... Neuroscience has produced a really, really large body of evidence that our brains are deeply gendered. Same goes with psychiatry, in which pretty much all disorders are deeply gendered. Given that psychology is emergent on neurology and endocrinology, how exactly is it "trusting science" to argue, that we are not a deeply biological and gendered species?

How super sad you felt this way. I am not sure any guy could equate the same feeling, but certainly prejudice and bias abounds everywhere, so from a guy's perspective, while maybe not due to gender, certainly from other aspects.

It very much reminds me of my time in the military, which actually was before women were allowed in almost every segment; however, during my time was the great inclusion in every aspect of the military and even as a young guy I could not understand most guys reticence, except I concluded it due to one main, idiotic reason:

They simply felt like their own private club was invaded and they could no longer curse, burp and fart at will.

Stay strong and as you grow in experience and the hobby, create and fill your own club and circle with those that help you enjoy the game. I have played in a few places and tournaments where there were genuine nice people and some total A$$hats - that's just people for you.

OP bailed before the end of the first page in this thread, well done proving OP's point, a true community effort.

Yup. Person comes to the board looking for help about gatekeeping in the hobby and gets a lecture about how men and women are biologically predisposed toward different hobbies.

Give yourselves a round of applause guys.

macluvin wrote:

The nazis were notorious for attacking intellectual movements and especially science because unless the science was of benefit to their beliefs or produced material that they found beneficiary, it was useless. When science and politics clash, it’s usually the science that is correct.

The irony of this statement is palpable.

What would be the standard of evidence to change your mind? If it was proven that there are biological differences between people that make them suited for and inclined toward different things, such as abstract thinking, would you change your position?

 Irkjoe wrote:
The irony of this statement is palpable.

What would be the standard of evidence to change your mind? If it was proven that there are biological differences between people that make them suited for and inclined toward different things, such as abstract thinking, would you change your position?

I'm sure there's a bear in a forest somewhere who would be happy to discuss the intricacies of 'natural law' with you. Let us know how that goes.

Irkjoe: Do you really feel that this thread where someone came looking for help about gatekeeping of women in the wargaming hobby is the place for this argument?

 Da Boss wrote:
Irkjoe: Do you really feel that this thread where someone came looking for help about gatekeeping of women in the wargaming hobby is the place for this argument?

I think that if you are going to claim objectivity and use science as a bludgeon then that question is a good test.

 Irkjoe wrote:
I think that if you are going to claim objectivity and use science as a bludgeon then that question is a good test.

Or at least a vehicle for rationalizing your cognitive biases.

 Irkjoe wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Irkjoe: Do you really feel that this thread where someone came looking for help about gatekeeping of women in the wargaming hobby is the place for this argument?

I think that if you are going to claim objectivity and use science as a bludgeon then that question is a good test.

Do you think this is helping the OP find a solution to her problem somehow?

The problem was solved on the first page.

Doesn't look like the problem of gatekeeping women out of wargaming has been solved at all, to me.

 Da Boss wrote:


Do you think this is helping the OP find a solution to her problem somehow?

Yes, just not the solution she wants.

 Irkjoe wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:


Do you think this is helping the OP find a solution to her problem somehow?

Yes, just not the solution she wants.

Are you telling her she doesn't ACTUALLY like Warhammer? Because, here's the thing. I've not done the research. I've not read the studies, I'm not a sociologist, none of that. If there's a strong preference for men to prefer hobbies like 40k over women... That doesn't matter one whit when you have a woman who wants to play. Because this is not a hypothetical "average woman", this is a specific person who's interested and is facing issues.

Just shoot this thread in the head already. Christ.

Good luck to the OP.

 Irkjoe wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:


Do you think this is helping the OP find a solution to her problem somehow?

Yes, just not the solution she wants.

What the hell, dude.

I agree that this conversation has degraded into poor taste and no longer helping the original poster, who came to us in good faith.

Please can the moderators lock this thread.

 JNAProductions wrote:
you telling her she doesn't ACTUALLY like Warhammer? Because, here's the thing. I've not done the research. I've not read the studies, I'm not a sociologist, none of that. If there's a strong preference for men to prefer hobbies like 40k over women... That doesn't matter one whit when you have a woman who wants to play. Because this is not a hypothetical "average woman", this is a specific person who's interested and is facing issues.

I'm saying that the miniature hobby is overwhelmingly for men and that the situation where women can just wander into a group of men and game with them like a man is impossible. Women are more concerned with the social aspect while power gamer Timmy and old Gregor want to get granular about points, statistics, and why female marines break the fluff; they don't want to be bothered with her and she's repulsed by their behavior. Imagine if Timmy wanted to drink with the wine mums and watch american beauty, ha!

 Irkjoe wrote:

I'm saying that the miniature hobby is overwhelmingly for men and that the situation where women can just wander into a group of men and game with them like a man is impossible. Women are more concerned with the social aspect while power gamer Timmy and old Gregor want to get granular about points, statistics, and why female marines break the fluff; they don't want to be bothered with her and she's repulsed by their behavior. Imagine if Timmy wanted to drink with the wine mums and watch american beauty, ha!

Oh shut up already.

Apologies @rule#1. :/

 Irkjoe wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
you telling her she doesn't ACTUALLY like Warhammer? Because, here's the thing. I've not done the research. I've not read the studies, I'm not a sociologist, none of that. If there's a strong preference for men to prefer hobbies like 40k over women... That doesn't matter one whit when you have a woman who wants to play. Because this is not a hypothetical "average woman", this is a specific person who's interested and is facing issues.

I'm saying that the miniature hobby is overwhelmingly for men and that the situation where women can just wander into a group of men and game with them like a man is impossible. Women are more concerned with the social aspect while power gamer Timmy and old Gregor want to get granular about points, statistics, and why female marines break the fluff; they don't want to be bothered with her and she's repulsed by their behavior. Imagine if Timmy wanted to drink with the wine mums and watch american beauty, ha!

"Hey guys, are women gatekept in the Warhammer community?"

"Yes, but only because women should not be playing Warhammer."

Are we going to be complaining about cooties outbreaks next?