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 Irkjoe wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
you telling her she doesn't ACTUALLY like Warhammer? Because, here's the thing. I've not done the research. I've not read the studies, I'm not a sociologist, none of that. If there's a strong preference for men to prefer hobbies like 40k over women... That doesn't matter one whit when you have a woman who wants to play. Because this is not a hypothetical "average woman", this is a specific person who's interested and is facing issues.

I'm saying that the miniature hobby is overwhelmingly for men and that the situation where women can just wander into a group of men and game with them like a man is impossible. Women are more concerned with the social aspect while power gamer Timmy and old Gregor want to get granular about points, statistics, and why female marines break the fluff; they don't want to be bothered with her and she's repulsed by their behavior. Imagine if Timmy wanted to drink with the wine mums and watch american beauty, ha!

If Timmy wanted to drink with the wine moms and watch American Beauty, that'd be absolutely fine. A hobby or activity being stereotypically masculine or feminine doesn't mean jack if it's something you enjoy.

Again, there is (or was, in all probability) an actual woman here saying she enjoys the hobby, and you're dismissing that. You're saying "She doesn't really enjoy the hobby the same way other people do."

You are, in effect, calling her a liar. For what reason? Why?

 the_scotsman wrote:
...It's a bold claim that someone's interest in playing games with and painting small miniature models is...not driven by biology?

Yes, and what's more, they made the claim that it was "personal," which is not merely an argument for the null hypothesis, but something else.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Here, i'll disprove the notion that women do not enjoy spending a huge amount of time meticulously making tiny collectible objects: Go into your internet browser, up at the top, and type in "www.etsy.com"

I never said that was the case. Wargaming is more than tiny collectible objects. Implying otherwise is very disingenuous.

 Irkjoe wrote:

macluvin wrote:

Tradition is not a biological construct it is a social construct. Thank you for proving my point. Besides, it’s not just a paper. It is many papers, and the cumulative product of over a century of forward progress having applied the golden standard of logic. That is how the scientific method works.

So the science can't be wrong? It can't be based on stupid assumptions, be politically motivated, or just be outright propaganda? And all modern science is logical truth while the prior understanding and practices of mankind were just wrong the entire time, not rooted in any inherent human behavior or biology? Men and women have no distinct natural inclinations that resulted in tradition?

What you will find in all instances of science proposing hypotheses that are later disproven, is that it was later disproven by more science.

Unlike subjective social and cultural fields, science is self improving and correcting. When a hypothesis is disproven, it only make science more accurate, by replacing it with a better evidenced explanation.

Modern science being logical truth and prior understanding and practices being wrong are entirely separate things. They aren't related to each other.

you're using a correlation causation fallacy. Sometimes we believed things that were true and sometimes we didn't, but being a tradition or practice has no impact on the chance they were true or not. That's also a fallacy, the fallacy of appeal to tradition.

As science is self correcting, if something comes out with poor assumptions or motivations, it has to go through a gauntlet of denial to reach publication (at least, publication in the scientific field - anyone can put crap online and claim it's serious). And even then, it can and has been retracted, rebutted and made redundant by more science.

This is why when we discuss science hypotheses and resulting theories, we discuss it in terms of consensus based on evidence. That means there is little in the way of research tested as comprehensively to contradict it. Consensus changes if enough new evidence is tested and runs that same gauntlet.


Argument from tradition is basically the analogue equivalent of 'I did my research' through google links....

Crispy78 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Good to see the "help a fellow hobbyist" thread turned into "women don't even like warhammer anyway". Good work guys, you're really helping to subdue the notion that there's not a gatekeeping problem in this hobby.

It's fine, I suspect the OP left a few pages back...

I suspect OP was a drive by posting of an alt account of someone who posts here regularly.

JNAProductions wrote:If Timmy wanted to drink with the wine moms and watch American Beauty, that'd be absolutely fine. A hobby or activity being stereotypically masculine or feminine doesn't mean jack if it's something you enjoy.

Again, there is (or was, in all probability) an actual woman here saying she enjoys the hobby, and you're dismissing that. You're saying "She doesn't really enjoy the hobby the same way other people do."

You are, in effect, calling her a liar. For what reason? Why?

No, Timmy would be a weirdo, he doesn't belong there and the wine mums don't want to hear his scene by scene analysis of how the movie is a subversive loser's fantasy. Everything isn't for everybody and the idea that you will be welcomed by people who want something different out of it is silly. Most men prioritize playing the game, the thing itself, not socializing and chit-chatting over the game.

Hellebore wrote:
Unlike subjective social and cultural fields, science is self improving and correcting. When a hypothesis is disproven, it only make science more accurate, by replacing it with a better evidenced explanation.

Modern science being logical truth and prior understanding and practices being wrong are entirely separate things. They aren't related to each other.

you're using a correlation causation fallacy. Sometimes we believed things that were true and sometimes we didn't, but being a tradition or practice has no impact on the chance they were true or not. That's also a fallacy, the fallacy of appeal to tradition.

As science is self correcting, if something comes out with poor assumptions or motivations, it has to go through a gauntlet of denial to reach publication (at least, publication in the scientific field - anyone can put crap online and claim it's serious). And even then, it can and has been retracted, rebutted and made redundant by more science.

I'm going to echo my original point; you don't need a scientific explanation to prove men and women are different, it's completely self evident. Enter science; now, men and women are the same, interchangeable, or nonexistent. The science assumes that we haven't figured it out yet when the truth has been obvious from the beginning.

Correlation is the first step in determining causation, and the disregard of traditions that might have become traditions because they contain wisdom is a dangerous lesson the west is currently learning imo.

 Irkjoe wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:If Timmy wanted to drink with the wine moms and watch American Beauty, that'd be absolutely fine. A hobby or activity being stereotypically masculine or feminine doesn't mean jack if it's something you enjoy.

Again, there is (or was, in all probability) an actual woman here saying she enjoys the hobby, and you're dismissing that. You're saying "She doesn't really enjoy the hobby the same way other people do."

You are, in effect, calling her a liar. For what reason? Why?

No, Timmy would be a weirdo, he doesn't belong there and the wine mums don't want to hear his scene by scene analysis of how the movie is a subversive loser's fantasy. Everything isn't for everybody and the idea that you will be welcomed by people who want something different out of it is silly. Most men prioritize playing the game, the thing itself, not socializing and chit-chatting over the game.

Well, what if a guy wants to hang out with a lot of women and watch romantic comedies without analyzing it? What's so bad about getting together and hanging out with a bunch of friends? That sounds fun enough to me.

 Irkjoe wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:If Timmy wanted to drink with the wine moms and watch American Beauty, that'd be absolutely fine. A hobby or activity being stereotypically masculine or feminine doesn't mean jack if it's something you enjoy.

Again, there is (or was, in all probability) an actual woman here saying she enjoys the hobby, and you're dismissing that. You're saying "She doesn't really enjoy the hobby the same way other people do."

You are, in effect, calling her a liar. For what reason? Why?

No, Timmy would be a weirdo, he doesn't belong there and the wine mums don't want to hear his scene by scene analysis of how the movie is a subversive loser's fantasy. Everything isn't for everybody and the idea that you will be welcomed by people who want something different out of it is silly. Most men prioritize playing the game, the thing itself, not socializing and chit-chatting over the game.
Correlation is the first step in determining causation, and the disregard of traditions that might have become traditions because they contain wisdom is a dangerous lesson the west is currently learning imo.

Lol. What a nice attitude straight from stone age.

Little late to this topic,

In my own experience much like an earlier post noted. most of the female gamers we see in the FLGS are there because their significant other is into gaming. so, it is usually wives or girlfriends (my wife even used to play with us for a time, but she now prefers MMORPG games she can play online at home).

That is not to say we as male gamers do not want women in the gaming community, we do, but it is the rarity not the norm.

It is similar to many other hobbies, there is a reason why most men enjoy the company of so called "tomboys" girls who like to do the things that guys normally enjoy but women are not drawn to. I used to be an avid off road dirty biker and mountain biker when i was younger and i rarely ever saw any women in our groups unless they were there with their partner for example.

There is also the relationship aspect of time away for guys or girls to hang out with their circle of friends and have some social time away from their partners.

This Fantastic 5th ed blood angels army belonged to a female gamer who was at the time a GW store employee and played because she enjoyed the hobby without a relationship reason to be involved-

 aphyon wrote:

Spoiler:

Holy hell, that's one redeemable fortress.

 Mistresspaige wrote:
Hey guys I’m quite new to the whole 40k scene but after watching the hilarious Text to Speech show on YouTube last year I’ve been interested in trying out the game itself. However from a lot of groups I’ve met they’ve been maybe not hostile per day but a little gate keeping. How can I join in the fun on the hobby when I’m looked upon as not belonging? Is there anything I can do to make the community more welcoming to me?

Get Tabletop Simulator from Steam, join the TTS40k discord, learn how to play 40k, and play with the people YOU want to play with.

Well, the reports are in that toys were not gendered before the early-mid 20th century:
https://theconversation.com/how-toys-became-gendered-and-why-itll-take-more-than-a-gender-neutral-doll-to-change-how-boys-perceive-femininity-124386
https://newdream.org/blog/2011-10-gendering-of-kids-toys

What's interesting about theConversation article is the suggestion that the 'masculinisation' of certain toys plays into certain exclusionary behaviour by boys towards girls. So a gaming context that traditionally is a male-oriented space will foster behaviour that's less welcoming of female.

It's not the toys or evolution or 'tradition'; only a fool would think that. It's just that the culture of 40k grew as a male-dominated hobby, a result of this (incredibly recent, in humanity-terms) 20th century gendered toy marketing, from the start that makes it harder for women to tap in. Same with bronies!

 aphyon wrote:
Little late to this topic,

In my own experience much like an earlier post noted. most of the female gamers we see in the FLGS are there because their significant other is into gaming. so, it is usually wives or girlfriends (my wife even used to play with us for a time, but she now prefers MMORPG games she can play online at home).

That is not to say we as male gamers do not want women in the gaming community, we do, but it is the rarity not the norm.

It is similar to many other hobbies, there is a reason why most men enjoy the company of so called "tomboys" girls who like to do the things that guys normally enjoy but women are not drawn to. I used to be an avid off road dirty biker and mountain biker when i was younger and i rarely ever saw any women in our groups unless they were there with their partner for example.

There is also the relationship aspect of time away for guys or girls to hang out with their circle of friends and have some social time away from their partners.

This Fantastic 5th ed blood angels army belonged to a female gamer who was at the time a GW store employee and played because she enjoyed the hobby without a relationship reason to be involved-

Spoiler:

One of the reason many women, and girls can only join into community’s like this with partners is for safety and that so many space are unwelcoming as this thread shows quite well.
Not only do we need to show up with everything normally expected, but we also need to prove enthusiastically that we are there for ourselves.
When trying to discuss things we like or dislike, we often are met with dismissive responses. That we are somehow breaking into spaces we have been for years, but somehow need to justify it for us to be there.

It is tiresome and happens in everything, guys nearing half my age telling me why we are the ones coming into there space. Gaming, movies and books. It’s all very similar.
But reading this thread I am reminded why I don’t really like modern 40k so much.

Also, this has happen with lego before. They pushed women out with there own marketing, girls where not getting given lego, and then would go on not to share the hobby with there girls or when giving gifts.
Creating a cycle over generations and turning a kids toy, into a boys toy.

This happened as well with the pink isle, a lot of girls like pink and a lot of girls stopped liking toys.
All my toys where from the “Boys section” for the most part, I hated pink on everything>.<

Bit of a rant. And probably the only post I make here.

 Irkjoe wrote:
Most men prioritize playing the game, the thing itself, not socializing and chit-chatting over the game.

Those you described are what I call TFG or WAAC dudes. I avoid them like plague.

Thankfully in over 20 years of wargaming I only met a handful of dudes that didn't prioritize socializing. The idea that people like that might be the majority in other metas terrorizes me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

If Timmy wanted to drink with the wine moms and watch American Beauty, that'd be absolutely fine.

American Beauty is hands down the best non action American movie that was ever made. Pretty much all men that drink alcohol like wine, and unless we're talking about people with socializing problems what sane single straight man doesn't like being surrounded by women?

It would be a perfectly normal scenario that one you described.

 Blackie wrote:

 Irkjoe wrote:
Most men prioritize playing the game, the thing itself, not socializing and chit-chatting over the game.

Those you described are what I call TFG or WAAC dudes. I avoid them like plague.

Thankfully in over 20 years of wargaming I only met a handful of dudes that didn't prioritize socializing. The idea that people like that might be the majority in other metas terrorizes me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

If Timmy wanted to drink with the wine moms and watch American Beauty, that'd be absolutely fine.

American Beauty is hands down the best non action American movie that was ever made. Pretty much all men that drink alcohol like wine, and unless we're talking about people with socializing problems what sane single straight man doesn't like being surrounded by women?

It would be a perfectly normal scenario that one you described.

Exalted!

 _SeeD_ wrote:

 Mistresspaige wrote:
Hey guys I’m quite new to the whole 40k scene but after watching the hilarious Text to Speech show on YouTube last year I’ve been interested in trying out the game itself. However from a lot of groups I’ve met they’ve been maybe not hostile per day but a little gate keeping. How can I join in the fun on the hobby when I’m looked upon as not belonging? Is there anything I can do to make the community more welcoming to me?

Get Tabletop Simulator from Steam, join the TTS40k discord, learn how to play 40k, and play with the people YOU want to play with.

The same Discord where a weapons-grade MRA idiot posts a hell of a lot? That is not the safe space you think it is.

Apple fox wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
Little late to this topic,

In my own experience much like an earlier post noted. most of the female gamers we see in the FLGS are there because their significant other is into gaming. so, it is usually wives or girlfriends (my wife even used to play with us for a time, but she now prefers MMORPG games she can play online at home).

That is not to say we as male gamers do not want women in the gaming community, we do, but it is the rarity not the norm.

It is similar to many other hobbies, there is a reason why most men enjoy the company of so called "tomboys" girls who like to do the things that guys normally enjoy but women are not drawn to. I used to be an avid off road dirty biker and mountain biker when i was younger and i rarely ever saw any women in our groups unless they were there with their partner for example.

There is also the relationship aspect of time away for guys or girls to hang out with their circle of friends and have some social time away from their partners.

This Fantastic 5th ed blood angels army belonged to a female gamer who was at the time a GW store employee and played because she enjoyed the hobby without a relationship reason to be involved-

Spoiler:

One of the reason many women, and girls can only join into community’s like this with partners is for safety and that so many space are unwelcoming as this thread shows quite well.
Not only do we need to show up with everything normally expected, but we also need to prove enthusiastically that we are there for ourselves.
When trying to discuss things we like or dislike, we often are met with dismissive responses. That we are somehow breaking into spaces we have been for years, but somehow need to justify it for us to be there.

It is tiresome and happens in everything, guys nearing half my age telling me why we are the ones coming into there space. Gaming, movies and books. It’s all very similar.
But reading this thread I am reminded why I don’t really like modern 40k so much.

Also, this has happen with lego before. They pushed women out with there own marketing, girls where not getting given lego, and then would go on not to share the hobby with there girls or when giving gifts.
Creating a cycle over generations and turning a kids toy, into a boys toy.

This happened as well with the pink isle, a lot of girls like pink and a lot of girls stopped liking toys.
All my toys where from the “Boys section” for the most part, I hated pink on everything>.<

Bit of a rant. And probably the only post I make here.

Exalted. This conversation about women was sorely lacking in input from women and I wish we could hear that perspective more often.

 Blackie wrote:
Those you described are what I call TFG or WAAC dudes. I avoid them like plague.

It also covers all those people who have poor social skills, low self esteem, introverted personalities, for whom just getting out and playing the game is a social activity, and possibly the only social activity they have.

Shunning them or pushing them to be different is just another form of gatekeeping - there is a difference between not being social and being anti-social after all, and a difference between not being welcoming and being actively unwelcoming regardless of the genders involved.

 Blackie wrote:

American Beauty is hands down the best non action American movie that was ever made.

Jesus, just when I thought there was nothing new you could say that I would disagree with you throw this at me.

A.T. wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Those you described are what I call TFG or WAAC dudes. I avoid them like plague.

It also covers all those people who have poor social skills, low self esteem, introverted personalities, for whom just getting out and playing the game is a social activity, and possibly the only social activity they have.

Shunning them or pushing them to be different is just another form of gatekeeping - there is a difference between not being social and being anti-social after all, and a difference between not being welcoming and being actively unwelcoming regardless of the genders involved.

Gaming is about having fun and what brings fun is entirely subjective.

I don't have fun dealing with people who only want to win games and consider other players nothing more than "opponents". I understand there are people with poor social skills, low self esteem, etc... but if they decide to be completely unfriendly and repeatedly refuse to socialize that's their choice and I respect it. They're seeking a whole different experience from wargaming than me. Accepting it and moving on is in the best interest of both parts.

That's not really a form of gatekeeping as we want completely different things out of the hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

American Beauty is hands down the best non action American movie that was ever made.

Jesus, just when I thought there was nothing new you could say that I would disagree with you throw this at me.

Well of course absolute number one is an exaggeration, let's say my favorite one instead, as it's not possible to objectively declare the best movie in history. Still, American Beauty is universally recognized as one of the best movies in history by both the publics and the critics. It doesn't matter if you like it or not, it doesn't change that fact. There are several universally acclaimed movies that I completely dislike myself, it doesn't mean that they aren't among the best movies in history.

 Blackie wrote:
That's not really a form of gatekeeping as we want completely different things out of the hobby.

Comes back to the original post and replies. I suppose it's not always a clear line when freezing someone out and labeling them as 'that f-er over there' goes from personal preference to gatekeeping, or how much it matters to the end results.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:

 Mistresspaige wrote:
Hey guys I’m quite new to the whole 40k scene but after watching the hilarious Text to Speech show on YouTube last year I’ve been interested in trying out the game itself. However from a lot of groups I’ve met they’ve been maybe not hostile per day but a little gate keeping. How can I join in the fun on the hobby when I’m looked upon as not belonging? Is there anything I can do to make the community more welcoming to me?

Get Tabletop Simulator from Steam, join the TTS40k discord, learn how to play 40k, and play with the people YOU want to play with.

The same Discord where a weapons-grade MRA idiot posts a hell of a lot? That is not the safe space you think it is.

what? 0_0

Irkjoe wrote:I'm saying that the miniature hobby is overwhelmingly for men and that the situation where women can just wander into a group of men and game with them like a man is impossible. Women are more concerned with the social aspect while power gamer Timmy and old Gregor want to get granular about points, statistics, and why female marines break the fluff; they don't want to be bothered with her and she's repulsed by their behavior. Imagine if Timmy wanted to drink with the wine mums and watch american beauty, ha!

I'm curious, what about enby folks? What are they more concerned with, seeing as you want to be all gender-reductive here.

Oh, and this whole thing is stupid and utterly shortsighted. Just to clarify.

Hecaton wrote:I suspect OP was a drive by posting of an alt account of someone who posts here regularly.

You suspect, but unless you have proof, all you're doing is further perpetuating the image that women don't "really" belong here.

Do you have any proof to back that up, or are you just stirring?

Apple fox wrote:Bit of a rant. And probably the only post I make here.

A most welcome post, regardless. Thank you for your voice.

A.T. wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Those you described are what I call TFG or WAAC dudes. I avoid them like plague.

It also covers all those people who have poor social skills, low self esteem, introverted personalities, for whom just getting out and playing the game is a social activity, and possibly the only social activity they have.

Shunning them or pushing them to be different is just another form of gatekeeping - there is a difference between not being social and being anti-social after all, and a difference between not being welcoming and being actively unwelcoming regardless of the genders involved.

There is a difference, yes, but we should make it very clear that there isn't an excuse for being *anti-social* to someone on the basis of their gender or other such factor.

There is a difference, yes, but we should make it very clear that there isn't an excuse for being *anti-social* to someone on the basis of their gender or other such factor.

I think most gaming groups are just happy to have an active group to play with no matter who they are. granted in any group or organization you can always have selected individuals who are not good people, along with great people as groups are made up of individuals.

Let's face it, we are in a comparatively niche hobby with an equally small fan base that draws in rather eclectic people.

I mean most of the guys i work with in my normal day job could probably rattle off stats for their favorite sports team or star players, stuff i have no interest in (that have a far larger following than war gaming), but i can break down the caliber of various bolt weapons, the difference between the lore of the great houses or MRM, LRM and ATM missile types in battletech, or the alignment of various chromatic dragons etc...

In our regular to semi-regular group of around 20 gamers at the FLGS, we have people from all sorts of ethnic/racial backgrounds, religious & political affiliations, sexual preferences, genders, relationship status etc.... and nobody cares because they are all great people to hang out and game with. some of them i have known for decades to the point we are basically family.

New players are always welcomed and encouraged because building community is as much a part of the hobby as moving toy soldiers around the table.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There is a difference, yes, but we should make it very clear that there isn't an excuse for being *anti-social* to someone on the basis of their gender or other such factor.

What if they're anti-social behaviour was due to some form of neurodivergence? I'm pretty sure you'd be willing to excuse them then. I dunno, just an impression I get from you.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There is a difference, yes, but we should make it very clear that there isn't an excuse for being *anti-social* to someone on the basis of their gender or other such factor.

What if they're anti-social behaviour was due to some form of neurodivergence? I'm pretty sure you'd be willing to excuse them then. I dunno, just an impression I get from you.

I wouldn't, because unless we are talking an extreme level of disability social behaviours can be taught and learned.

Cultivate a Tabletop Simulator group. TTS is the future.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Hecaton wrote:I suspect OP was a drive by posting of an alt account of someone who posts here regularly.

You suspect, but unless you have proof, all you're doing is further perpetuating the image that women don't "really" belong here.

I have autism and depression, my friend has anxiety and ptsd. We are extremely socially awkward and can be anti social sometimes. Some people are just bad at socializing. I understand the notion to get rid of gatekeeping, and I agree that we shouldn't have social boundaries defined by immutable characteristics, but please do not act like everyone that is socially awkward or antisocial can just get better at being social easily.

 Irkjoe wrote:
Most men prioritize playing the game, the thing itself, not socializing and chit-chatting over the game

I have to greately disagree with that. Yeah we have the couple tryhards but most people here go to tournaments for the social aspect of all of it. The game is mediocre at is best and just an excuse to hang out, move our painted toys and roll dice.

But maybe thats a cultural difference. I have always heard that american culture is much more cuttroath competitive.

 Galas wrote:
I have always heard that american culture is much more cuttroath competitive.

Yep. I can speak to my intensity, and I'm not necessarily a bad case.
Personally, I think competitive attitudes should be relegated to actual competition and I actually go out of my way to help my friends when we play casually.