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Sgt_Smudge wrote: Exactly. This idea that there's an innate gender bias is simply oudated and incorrect. Just look at the amount of things that have been reclaimed by women and non-male identities that were once only viewed as "man's spaces".
Such as? Please don't claim video games.
As something as more of a personal interest to me, western theatre, specifically. There was once a point in time, long ago, but still serving my point, where theatre was regarded as for men only, and theatre was dominated by male audiences. At the time, the same arguments were made, that it simply was not a thing for women - but you'd be hard pressed now to claim it.
Similarly, the superhero genre is incredibly popular with audiences across the gender spectrum, not just the traditionally male audience.
Additionally, fields of academia and further education were historically barred to women. The same gender-essentialist arguments were made, and were disproven.
The same can be said for politics, sports, military service, etc etc - it really is a rather pervasive issue.
I'm also curious why you didn't want video games bringing up?
Just opening a space to women doesn't make them "reclaimed". Working sewers is open to women but that doesn't make it "reclaimed" because women tend to not be very interested in clearing fatbergs out of gakky tunnels.
Most men aren't particularly interested either. My point is that all of the above things I named *were* regarded as "male spaces", not because it was predominantly men in them, but because they were considered to be spaces *for* men.
There's a difference between "there's a lot of men in this field" and "this field is for men", and for a time, our hobby was widely perceived as one of the latter.
Warhammer isn't barred to women but I'd be interested to see your arguments as to how its been "reclaimed" by women when they're still a vast minority in the hobby.
I don't mean to say that it has been "reclaimed" fully. As this thread shows (and some of the comments made in it), I don't believe that it can be called "reclaimed": but is there a reclamation, and liberation of space? Yes, certainly. Women are more visible and normalised within the wider perception of the hobby, despite some stigmas from certain individuals and groups who view women as encroaching on "their space".
Again, regarding barring - we have to be careful not to lessen the impact of unconscious or societal barring, as opposed to explicit restrictions.
Also I excluded video games because almost every time someone claims that women are at least half or a majority of video game players its based on a biased study that considers having Candy Crush installed on your phone as a video game player.
I don't base it off of that study, I base it off of the fact that most of the women in my life are just as, if not more, involved in video games as non-women. It sounds like a reductive thing to rule out that whole discussion based on one faulty study - as with all my comments, I am basing them on my experiences, and how my experiences fly in the face of any kind of implicit gender bias.
Not to mention "reclaimed" implies they were somehow kicked out of it once and then excluded.
I use reclaimed to refer to becoming accepted and normalised into a space that they have been excluded from, but regardless of the actual terms used, I'm sure you know what I am referring to.
Also what the hell is "the superhero genre"? I assume you mean comic book movies?
I am referring to the entire medium and mythos - whether that be from comics, movies, fandom culture, or fanfiction.
I don't believe doing the above is disregarding her experiences, but trying to contextualize them. The thread started with the premise that what she experienced was a manifestation of gatekeeping against women, which could be the wrong conclusion in some cases. Reading different perspectives on these situations should help her getting into new groups going forward. And I believe that was the reason for asking about it in the first place.
^This.
Finding a new group in the same area might be difficult to achieve. I've learned to deal also with more difficult characters.
Such 'guys' are often the hang ups, goofing off with others in the gaming facility.
How do deal with those people? Depends also on their social background. Here at least I can say that those people are not Univ. students.
Former moderator 40kOnline
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Interestingly there was a period when female wargaming was a popular middle class pursuit (at least in the English speaking world, no idea about others) and that was in the pre-WW1 period (wargames in the drawing room with the guests darling?). Plenty of articles/books to read on this but my understanding was western societies pushed militarism and military adventures in support of their imperial policies and a more accepted 'glorious' portrayal of war. This participation collapsed following WW1 (for men and women) and the very different experience of war and its consequences. It regained some popularity with boys but I guess the overwhelming societal view kept women out.
I have hears of this. I think the female experience of war and what it involves is often far darker than that of the men. Frankly I'm not surprised that its 'popularity' as a pursuit fell away once the mangled sons and husbands came home or stories from other women left in the wake of rampaging victorious armies came to light.
Its easy to 'glory up' and put some snazz on the fighting and shooting and winning, not so much the other stuff. Boys fight, girls live with the consequences of what happens and have to pick up the pieces.
See toy soldiers getting mainstream approval again and just like comics and the like you would see an increase in participation of both genders. Sadly I reckon the poor quality of many GW games outside of their core targeted age groups and the block they can be for people to try other games means we would be dependant on them launching games with wider appeal.
I disagree. It's got nothing to do with the quality of the games. Gw are far cleverer than you appreciate- its a lot easier to be a casual 40k/other gw ip consumer than you realise.
Here's the thing - 'fantasy' covers many different things- there are many different avenues into it and many different attractions. It's a very big umbrella. Liking comics and movies doesn't mean you'll like ttgs just because they both fall under the same 'lol, kinda nerdy' moniker.
the comics and movies are as much about characters, their stories, their feelings and relationships as it is about punching thanos in the face. The greatest thing Stan Lee did was put the 'human' in superhuman. You don't really have that with warhammer. There's a reason the modern comics and marvel stuff is popular with more than just stereotypical macho guys.
There are a while swathe of different genres in comics and its not just glorified violence. Ive spoke with several owners of stores because I like the fact that this is happening now. Two of my favourites are the classic transmetropolitan series (dark satire about a hunter s thompson-esque journalist in a mad cyberpunk city trying to tell people 'the truth') and the current 'life is strange' comic from titan, which is a very lgbtq-friendly drama, and direct sequel to life is strange (a game I adore and yes, I needed more of max and chloe, dammit!)
Table top wargames? Yeah you fight with swords... or magic... or spears... or pre modern/modern/sci fi guns. It's not the same as talking about comics or superhero movies and saying 'girls like them too!' There's far less nuance or variety. Like I said, I have better luck getting my girl friends to play blood bowl than 40k.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/10 13:52:42
greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy
"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are"
The_Real_Chris wrote: Two of my favourites are the classic transmetropolitan series (dark satire about a hunter s thompson-esque journalist in a mad cyberpunk city trying to tell people 'the truth')
Patrick Stewart was at one time interested in playing Spider in a live action version...
macluvin wrote: I do find it troubling that there is a pattern of denying and rewriting the experience of women to fit men’s experience on this forum however
Go re-read your first post - at that point in time the OPs' own comment was 'maybe not hostile per say but a little gate keeping' - and from that and that alone you extracted multiple paragraphs of gender-bias, microaggression, cognitive dissonance, 'mansplaining', and so on. Actually asking for context was an afterthought.
No one here is denying the OPs' experiences. Entering any new group or hobby can be challenging and we can either try and emphasize based our own personal experiences, or make a lot of assumptions about theirs.
Good point. The biggest hurdle is finding a good group and that will vary, perhaps wildly, per individual.
Do you like the people in the group? I don't mean you need to be best buds but can you get along?
I'm fairly laid back and don't care who I play with as long as:
They don't take it too seriously, playing with people that swear or carry on when it doesn't go their way ruins a game for me. I'm okay if you are playing hard to win, it's the poor sport I don't want to deal with.
They know basic hygiene, soap and deoderant won't kill you. We'd always joke about MTG players because you could smell some of them when you walked into the store, but this applies to any game system.
There's not something else off putting about them such as blatant racism or sexism, etc.
For each of you, the list of what's acceptable will be different and that's okay. We are individuals after all.
I assume by gatekeeper what is being talked about is similar to the above but in the context of the group itself. Does the amorphous group think you'd fit in. This isn't one or two people but more of a hivemind kind of thing that isn't even discussed amongst group members. It only takes one bad personality to possibly destroy a group. People get tired of 'that guy' and stop showing up or just arrange to play elsewhere.
So there's a two way street to it.
Here are two examples that I have experienced.
My wife is a gamer. We relocated 1000 miles in 2019. There was a game store in our city(it closed due to Covid) that we checked out their board game night. Nice and welcoming people. We didn't feel that we'd fit in well with the group though.
The second is when I tried to get back into 40K before the relocation and had to deal with the dynamic of trying to get into a group.
I quit playing 40K for a long time and tried to get back into it with 8th ed. I went to the FLGS, used to be a regular there prior to my gaming hiatus, prior to 8th dropping to check out what the 40K scene was like and watch some games being played. I was starting from the ground up having gotten rid of all my wargaming gear a few years prior. So I starting building an Ad Mech force around April/May of 18. 8th drops and I have a mostly painted force around 1k points maybe 1250ish.
I bring it in and there's a couple of challenges.
Is my army big enough? All the guys had established armies and liked to play bigger games say 2K pts. So there's that hurdle to deal with. I could reach some larger points values but it would mean using stuff that had been assembled and maybe primed.
Will anyone play a game with me? It was the, I assume common, situation where people would walk in and have prearranged a game or 'hey Bob, let's play'. These guys only knew me from hanging out and watching some games, so it's not like anyone was 'Hey, let's play' until I was the only option left.
life happened and I didn't really get back into it. I think I played 1 maybe 2 games of 8th ed.
Fast forward to today and there's a newer FLGS that opened in my city in 2020. I'll have to repeat the process if I decide to get back into mini wargaming outside my own house. See if the group of people that play there seem like a reasonable fit and hopefully I fit in as well.
Now the OP is female which shouldn't matter but some guys are immature when it comes to how they act around women. That's where you run into the uncomfortable innuendo/inappropriate jokes etc. I'm also sure that there's the risk of sexism because 'she's a girl', 'I'm hungry go make me a sammich' . It's stupid in this day and age but it's real. So that get's thrown in as potential things to watch for that I don't deal with.
Someone mentioned 'mansplaining and kids gloves. This is possibly a two way street. If I am playing with someone new to a game, I will mention things about rules or even tactics as we play, so they can learn. I'll also do my best to not crush them, if that is a possibility. I'll play to win but maybe I won't go all out like I would against an experienced player. Someone could say that I'm 'mansplaining and playing with kids gloves because of gender, if it was with a female. That's the furthest thing from the truth though. I personally feel that games with a new player should be fun learning experiences. That is how the hobby grows, it's not by being a WAAC against a newb that has read the rules and maybe played a few games. YMMV of course.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/10 19:54:45
Interestingly there was a period when female wargaming was a popular middle class pursuit (at least in the English speaking world, no idea about others) and that was in the pre-WW1 period (wargames in the drawing room with the guests darling?). Plenty of articles/books to read on this but my understanding was western societies pushed militarism and military adventures in support of their imperial policies and a more accepted 'glorious' portrayal of war. This participation collapsed following WW1 (for men and women) and the very different experience of war and its consequences. It regained some popularity with boys but I guess the overwhelming societal view kept women out.
I have hears of this. I think the female experience of war and what it involves is often far darker than that of the men. Frankly I'm not surprised that its 'popularity' as a pursuit fell away once the mangled sons and husbands came home or stories from other women left in the wake of rampaging victorious armies came to light.
Its easy to 'glory up' and put some snazz on the fighting and shooting and winning, not so much the other stuff. Boys fight, girls live with the consequences of what happens and have to pick up the pieces.
No, I'm pretty sure watching your friends explode or having your legs blown off is worse than being told stories about it.
The most objectionable thing I found here was the shrugging "I guess girls don't like wargaming". It's not an inherent thing that makes you less likely to play with one type of toy or another. It's gendered socialization. This is proven science.
I remember the last time that came up, some anecdote andies and other such people tried to "debunk" it with one study. So I fully expect that to happen here.
The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.
No, I'm pretty sure watching your friends explode or having your legs blown off is worse than being told stories about it.
Learning about how your children were blown to little bits is probably worse. But hey, both men and women have childeren, so why don't we not turn the thread into a pissing contest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/10 21:20:32
RaptorusRex wrote: The most objectionable thing I found here was the shrugging "I guess girls don't like wargaming". It's not an inherent thing that makes you less likely to play with one type of toy or another. It's gendered socialization. This is proven science.
It's not proven that there's no biological basis for this, however.
RaptorusRex wrote: The most objectionable thing I found here was the shrugging "I guess girls don't like wargaming". It's not an inherent thing that makes you less likely to play with one type of toy or another. It's gendered socialization. This is proven science.
It's not proven that there's no biological basis for this, however.
It's not proven that there's no biological basis that you needed to make that utterly pointless comment, but here we are.
Where is all this talk of women not liking things for biological reasons even coming from? Or that women don't like wargamng by default? Or for that matter that they don't like painting because its too hard or time consuming.
I know anecdotal (but then again, half of this thread it anecdotal evidence), but my girlfriend is the one who got me into 40k, and is the main person I play with. Local game shop (at least pre-pandemic) has several female employees, and one of their big displays for awhile was an army one of them had painted.
Interestingly there was a period when female wargaming was a popular middle class pursuit (at least in the English speaking world, no idea about others) and that was in the pre-WW1 period (wargames in the drawing room with the guests darling?). Plenty of articles/books to read on this but my understanding was western societies pushed militarism and military adventures in support of their imperial policies and a more accepted 'glorious' portrayal of war. This participation collapsed following WW1 (for men and women) and the very different experience of war and its consequences. It regained some popularity with boys but I guess the overwhelming societal view kept women out.
I have hears of this. I think the female experience of war and what it involves is often far darker than that of the men. Frankly I'm not surprised that its 'popularity' as a pursuit fell away once the mangled sons and husbands came home or stories from other women left in the wake of rampaging victorious armies came to light.
Its easy to 'glory up' and put some snazz on the fighting and shooting and winning, not so much the other stuff. Boys fight, girls live with the consequences of what happens and have to pick up the pieces.
No, I'm pretty sure watching your friends explode or having your legs blown off is worse than being told stories about it.
You realize what the "rampaging victorious armies" part of their comment refers to, right? The point stands that it is easier to glamorize the fighting and the shooting aspects of war to...that.
Ah, someone always tries to insinuate that men and women tend to have the same hobbies/interests. Sorry to rain on your parade dude but I have news for you:
They don´t.
Plenty have the same hobbies. While some things tend to visually lean more heavily one way of the other, (from my personal experience in knowing hundreds of gamers) they just tend to enjoy them in different ways. The many women I've known to be into things like D&D, Magic, and a few for Warhammer tend to stick to their own personal playgroups. People they know and trust, so not a lot of people outside those small groups know about them and just assume they don't exist, whereas I see far more guys out and about at FLGS's playing there. When I've spoken to them about this, it's often a result of social pressure, feeling like as women they're not supposed to have these hobbies, or feeling the kinds of things the OP has when they've gone out on their own to experience them.
I've been the only guy in an all women D&D group before and the feeling of being the odd one out over and above being the "new person" in a group of friends can be pretty intimidating, even when you know there's not kind of gender discrimination going on.
My wife plays Magic and other board games with me on a regular basis, she's not into it enough to go out to events on her own, but she enjoys playing with me and my other gamer friends when they are over.
In my group of friends way back in High School a few of the women I knew were big Halo fans, and a bunch of us played magic together.
We had a few women who were regulars top finishers in Magic tournaments in out FLGS for a number of years before I stopped going out to tournaments due to life getting in the way.
Just because you haven't had personal experience with women in your hobbies, doesn't mean that they don't exist. Just because demographics skew one way or another, doesn't mean that "women do this and men do that"
Strange, when I take a stroll at the river all fishermen tend to be male. Guess female fishermen must hide from me as soon as they see me coming. What about soccer fans? Majority of people who watch/play it are males. Ballet? Majority of ballet dancers are female.
And now back to our 40K topic. Who wants to argue with me about the fact that the vast majority of 40K players on this planet are male? Who? Those people will probably also want to prove me wrong when I say water is wet.
Not to derail further but surely the point about women in the hobby is moot discussion topic when the OP of the thread IS a woman and is talking about being already involved within the hobby.
At that point any "women do/don't like the hobby for XYZ reasons" is purely a separate discussion that isn't really going to go anywhere but in circles and isn't going to help the OP nor really help anyone with regard to sexism in the hobby or other social club issues and how one might overcome them.
What exactly is saying “Women don’t like wargames” supposed to accomplish? Because sure, societal gender roles would generally push women away from wargames-but is that a desirable state? Why should we want this hobby to be male-only? I for one would love more players, regardless of gender.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Saying "Women presence is not popular in this specific hobby in this specific time frame" as a basis for "Women are wired diferently" is such a weak argument.
And it just comes down when you look back at history and see how many times random stuff and activities have jumped from being masculine to feminine to masculine again from tatoos to jewelry to high hells to all kind of activities in all kind of societies and ages.
And I'm not saying this to deny that theres clearly gendered dominated activities, jobs and hobbys in our world. Thats just plain sight to everybody. But drawing the wrong conclusions from a sample data is worse than drawing NO conclusion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/11 01:48:05
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Is it though? Or is it just the ones that do play get the most signal? I play D&D with one girl, but in all the hobby stores I've been to across my state I've almost never encountered a young girl or a grown woman. I see pictures from events and tournaments and they're either not present, or stick out as one among dozens and dozens.
So, again, has it really flourished, or is the spotlight just being shone upon them thereby making the perception seem that there are so many more of them?
I'm the only dude in my current group.
Anectodal evidence is just that. On opposite spectrum 0 women here.
Overread wrote: Not to derail further but surely the point about women in the hobby is moot discussion topic when the OP of the thread IS a woman and is talking about being already involved within the hobby.
At that point any "women do/don't like the hobby for XYZ reasons" is purely a separate discussion that isn't really going to go anywhere but in circles and isn't going to help the OP nor really help anyone with regard to sexism in the hobby or other social club issues and how one might overcome them.
But this whole discussion stemmed from OPs initial idea that treating a new player with kid gloves and that someone being a bad loser was sexist and not fairly normal occurrences in the hobby.
Last time I played WHFB I took a fairly low powered Skaven list which had a good turn and my opponent accused me of taking and OP army list on the basis of that one good turn (said skaven army had a bad turn and exploded itself and he didn't mention it). Was he being sexist for getting salty about me killing a lot of ogres?
When two of OPs examples are also experienced by majority of the male players as well it raises questions as to whether or not the cause was sexism or just hobby norms being interpreted that way. It doesn't help that we have a bunch of posters IMMEDIATELY leaping on people saying "OH BUT IT MUST BE SEXIST #BELIEVEWOMEN". Nah sorry, but its more likely that nerds have poor social skills and people go easy on new players to be accommodating than everyone playing the game spends their time on MGTOW forums.
To be fair the OP never said that treating her with kid gloves was sexist, just something she didn't like (she only said she didn't feel welcome) and simply shared her experience to understand if that's normal behaviour and how to get more fun while sticking around the hobby.
I do believe most nerds have poor social skills in general, but people with poor social skills could easily be sexist. We don't know if those specific players the OP met behaved like that because of their poor social skills or because they are actually sexist, or even if them being sexist was intended or not.
Strg Alt wrote:Strange, when I take a stroll at the river all fishermen tend to be male. Guess female fishermen must hide from me as soon as they see me coming. What about soccer fans? Majority of people who watch/play it are males. Ballet? Majority of ballet dancers are female.
And how much of that is biological predisposition, or societal? Because I'm willing to put my neck out and say it's the latter - to which I'd then mention that society changes, and isn't immutable, so we shouldn't make any claims about how people definitely wouldn't be interested in XYZ because of their gender.
And now back to our 40K topic. Who wants to argue with me about the fact that the vast majority of 40K players on this planet are male? Who? Those people will probably also want to prove me wrong when I say water is wet.
No-one is arguing about what the majority is. They're simply arguing about the idea that there's somehow an innate predisposition towards it because of biology, which is patently absurd.
Sim-Life wrote:When two of OPs examples are also experienced by majority of the male players as well
Are they? I mean, in entirety. There's a massive gulf in difference in the minutia of the "same" interaction that could very well add additional contexts and meanings, and in many cases, women and non-men are often perceptive of small changes and indications that men often don't register. I'm not saying that male players don't also experience these issues, but that the point is we simply don't know what happened, and instead of folks coming in and saying "I'm sure you're overreacting" (or words to that effect), perhaps considering that maybe, yes, the testimony of the only person who was *actually there* is the most accurate we have, and may very well have been sexist, it might be more productive.
I dunno, all I'm saying is that OP likely has a very different experience and perception of such encounters than most people here, and so it might be worth hearing that out.
Nah sorry, but its more likely that nerds have poor social skills
Having poor social skills and being sexist aren't mutually exclusive.
kurhanik wrote: Where is all this talk of women not liking things for biological reasons even coming from?
By and large? It comes from dudes.
(Who will of course be *shocked* that there is gatekeeping in the establishment)
Citation?
Well, if I'm correct in my assumption that kurhanik and Catulle are specifically referring to this thread, or Dakka as a whole, then yes, it absolutely comes from dudes - the people who have made such comments use male pronouns, unless I've missed something.
Unless you're asking for a citation that they'd be "shocked" about gatekeeping, that is.
JNAProductions wrote: What exactly is saying “Women don’t like wargames” supposed to accomplish? Because sure, societal gender roles would generally push women away from wargames-but is that a desirable state? Why should we want this hobby to be male-only? I for one would love more players, regardless of gender.
Well, the question is whether or not it's accurate, and if it's accurate it probably isn't immoral to point it out. I think there's a trend, and likely the trend is a result of a complex interplay of biological factors and learned behavior, as the way wargaming is practiced is a heavily "thing-oriented" behavior, and women tend to be more "people-oriented" rather than "thing-oriented." That said, there's plenty of "thing-oriented" women; I work in research science, and know plenty of women who people who hew closely to traditional gender roles would say aren't womanly enough, but they're women, and womanly is as womanly does, so... sucks to be traditionalists, I guess?
To bring it back to wargaming, individual women being into the hobby wouldn't disprove a trend that showed that women were less into it than men, and an overall trend of women being less into it than men doesn't show that individual women who *are* into wargaming are less serious or whatever.
It's also important to note that this "thing-oriented vs. people-oriented" idea isn't about intelligence. No, you're not an inherently smarter person because you like working with objects and abstract systems as opposed to people.
Yer. ‘Parrently the Scandinavians went out of their way to ‘de-gender’ childrens’ upbringing. Seems they still divided themselves into thing/people oriented occupations in later life
Moriarty wrote: Yer. ‘Parrently the Scandinavians went out of their way to ‘de-gender’ childrens’ upbringing. Seems they still divided themselves into thing/people oriented occupations in later life
Would you mind sharing some of these occupations for each category?
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, from a cultural psychology text book... Gender schema theory and social learning theory are the dominant cultural psychology theorems on how gender roles develop.
Modern science does not support your argument. The Scandinavian research for all we know could be due to cultural transmission. Even implicit biases undergo cultural transmission and gender roles are deeply engrained in our cultures. The text covers a few other ways that the research from the Scandinavians could possibly have been biased. I am not saying it is, but you did not produce a source so we do not have much to go on. I've got an open source text book that cites different studies that likely build on other research.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/12 21:17:58
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
Ah, someone always tries to insinuate that men and women have some kind of biological difference that makes them have different hobbies/interests. Sorry to rain on your parade, dude, but I have news for you.
They don't. Any difference in hobby interest is personal, not gender-based. There's lots of men I've talked to who don't want to play Warhammer. There's lots of women I've talked to who do. It's personal choice and societal pressure, including gatekeeping.
That's a bold claim.
...It's a bold claim that someone's interest in playing games with and painting small miniature models is...not driven by biology?
I would think that would be kind of the null hypothesis, and the whole 'biological basis' would be something that would require pretty significant evidence for me to buy into. Have you spliced the warhammer gene? Found it embedded somewhere deep in the masculoid DNA cortex?
Here, i'll disprove the notion that women do not enjoy spending a huge amount of time meticulously making tiny collectible objects: Go into your internet browser, up at the top, and type in "www.etsy.com"
H.B.M.C. wrote: Is it though? Or is it just the ones that do play get the most signal? I play D&D with one girl, but in all the hobby stores I've been to across my state I've almost never encountered a young girl or a grown woman. I see pictures from events and tournaments and they're either not present, or stick out as one among dozens and dozens.
So, again, has it really flourished, or is the spotlight just being shone upon them thereby making the perception seem that there are so many more of them?
I'm the only dude in my current group.
Anectodal evidence is just that. On opposite spectrum 0 women here.
Yes. Strange that you would respond to my anecdote, and not the "in all the hobby stores across my state ive almost never encountered a young girl or a grown woman" anecdote, and call it out as "just an anecdote."
I've only ever responded with anecdotes...to anecdotes. I'm not WOTC. I dont have their sales data. You're not either. Neither is HBMC. only one of us is actually making a claim, though - implying that women as a whole aren't *really* playing DnD, they're just getting Moar Attentionz On Social Media.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moriarty wrote: Yer. ‘Parrently the Scandinavians went out of their way to ‘de-gender’ childrens’ upbringing. Seems they still divided themselves into thing/people oriented occupations in later life
These are my favorite kinds of theories, because you can't do anything to falsify it - it's perfect!
Corporate Management: This job is dominated overwhelmingly by men, so clearly it's a 'thing' oriented occupation. Youre in meetings all day long, negotiating, managing your subordinates....oh! but money! it involves money, which is thing. There, we got there, "Thing" oriented!
Fashion Design: Dominated by women, so of course, this one has to be "people!" Well lets see, they work with fabrics, they figure out the forms of the clothing, colors, stitching styles...and then who buys the clothes and put them on? People, duh. Case closed, facts and logic, feminism destroyed.
Head Chef: super male dominated, obviously focused on the perfection of the perfect "pieces de artes" as pagliacci the famous italian chef-philosopher would put it. The team of sous chefs, the customer, all secondary to the achievement of the perfect "thing" of the high-class dish.
Baker: I mean can you even THINK of a more person-oriented job? obviously bakers are so focused on the customer, on working with people in a team to produce the baked goods, its no wonder that so many women are biologically incapable of not gravitating to this field, it's just in their brain wiring!
Damn, this science stuff is so much easier when you just start with the conclusion you want and make sure everything fits perfectly! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/12 23:25:29
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
It becomes even more interesting when you compare the same activity in different fields or countries.
Take horse riding - go to the UK and the pony clubs and hobby level is heavily dominated by women, as is the marketing, the advertising. Even the casual media "every girl wants a pony". etc...
Now look at competitive horse riding in the races and its heavily male dominated.
Within the same country you've two different gender dominances.
Meanwhile I would be willing to bet that in regions of the USA the hobby to eventing level might well be male dominated or closer to an even split.
And that's just two countries examples. Suffice to say it shows that the potential interest within something is far more than just if you're a guy or a gal. There's elements of upbringing, biology, genetics, marketing, advertising, social pressures, peer pressure, finances, social standing, time, education. There's so many factors and its never even as simple as "X = Y" because there's so many criss crossing aspects that intersect which means that two people of the same gender; or the same financial background; or the same upbringing; etc.. can end up with vastly diverging outlooks and interests.
Heck I've 2 brothers and 2 sisters and whilst we all share similarities we've all different interests and ideas.
Strg Alt wrote:Strange, when I take a stroll at the river all fishermen tend to be male. Guess female fishermen must hide from me as soon as they see me coming. What about soccer fans? Majority of people who watch/play it are males. Ballet? Majority of ballet dancers are female.
And how much of that is biological predisposition, or societal? Because I'm willing to put my neck out and say it's the latter - to which I'd then mention that society changes, and isn't immutable, so we shouldn't make any claims about how people definitely wouldn't be interested in XYZ because of their gender.
And now back to our 40K topic. Who wants to argue with me about the fact that the vast majority of 40K players on this planet are male? Who? Those people will probably also want to prove me wrong when I say water is wet.
No-one is arguing about what the majority is. They're simply arguing about the idea that there's somehow an innate predisposition towards it because of biology, which is patently absurd.
Sim-Life wrote:When two of OPs examples are also experienced by majority of the male players as well
Are they? I mean, in entirety. There's a massive gulf in difference in the minutia of the "same" interaction that could very well add additional contexts and meanings, and in many cases, women and non-men are often perceptive of small changes and indications that men often don't register. I'm not saying that male players don't also experience these issues, but that the point is we simply don't know what happened, and instead of folks coming in and saying "I'm sure you're overreacting" (or words to that effect), perhaps considering that maybe, yes, the testimony of the only person who was *actually there* is the most accurate we have, and may very well have been sexist, it might be more productive.
I dunno, all I'm saying is that OP likely has a very different experience and perception of such encounters than most people here, and so it might be worth hearing that out.
Nah sorry, but its more likely that nerds have poor social skills
Having poor social skills and being sexist aren't mutually exclusive.
Ah, someone always tries to insinuate that men and women have some kind of biological difference that makes them have different hobbies/interests. Sorry to rain on your parade, dude, but I have news for you.
They don't. Any difference in hobby interest is personal, not gender-based. There's lots of men I've talked to who don't want to play Warhammer. There's lots of women I've talked to who do. It's personal choice and societal pressure, including gatekeeping.
That's a bold claim.
...It's a bold claim that someone's interest in playing games with and painting small miniature models is...not driven by biology?
I would think that would be kind of the null hypothesis, and the whole 'biological basis' would be something that would require pretty significant evidence for me to buy into. Have you spliced the warhammer gene? Found it embedded somewhere deep in the masculoid DNA cortex?
Here, i'll disprove the notion that women do not enjoy spending a huge amount of time meticulously making tiny collectible objects: Go into your internet browser, up at the top, and type in "www.etsy.com"
H.B.M.C. wrote: Is it though? Or is it just the ones that do play get the most signal? I play D&D with one girl, but in all the hobby stores I've been to across my state I've almost never encountered a young girl or a grown woman. I see pictures from events and tournaments and they're either not present, or stick out as one among dozens and dozens.
So, again, has it really flourished, or is the spotlight just being shone upon them thereby making the perception seem that there are so many more of them?
I'm the only dude in my current group.
Anectodal evidence is just that. On opposite spectrum 0 women here.
Yes. Strange that you would respond to my anecdote, and not the "in all the hobby stores across my state ive almost never encountered a young girl or a grown woman" anecdote, and call it out as "just an anecdote."
I've only ever responded with anecdotes...to anecdotes. I'm not WOTC. I dont have their sales data. You're not either. Neither is HBMC. only one of us is actually making a claim, though - implying that women as a whole aren't *really* playing DnD, they're just getting Moar Attentionz On Social Media.
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Moriarty wrote: Yer. ‘Parrently the Scandinavians went out of their way to ‘de-gender’ childrens’ upbringing. Seems they still divided themselves into thing/people oriented occupations in later life
These are my favorite kinds of theories, because you can't do anything to falsify it - it's perfect!
Corporate Management: This job is dominated overwhelmingly by men, so clearly it's a 'thing' oriented occupation. Youre in meetings all day long, negotiating, managing your subordinates....oh! but money! it involves money, which is thing. There, we got there, "Thing" oriented!
Fashion Design: Dominated by women, so of course, this one has to be "people!" Well lets see, they work with fabrics, they figure out the forms of the clothing, colors, stitching styles...and then who buys the clothes and put them on? People, duh. Case closed, facts and logic, feminism destroyed.
Head Chef: super male dominated, obviously focused on the perfection of the perfect "pieces de artes" as pagliacci the famous italian chef-philosopher would put it. The team of sous chefs, the customer, all secondary to the achievement of the perfect "thing" of the high-class dish.
Baker: I mean can you even THINK of a more person-oriented job? obviously bakers are so focused on the customer, on working with people in a team to produce the baked goods, its no wonder that so many women are biologically incapable of not gravitating to this field, it's just in their brain wiring!
Damn, this science stuff is so much easier when you just start with the conclusion you want and make sure everything fits perfectly! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before?
Exalted.
And just to add a bit more...
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Moriarty wrote: Yer. ‘Parrently the Scandinavians went out of their way to ‘de-gender’ childrens’ upbringing. Seems they still divided themselves into thing/people oriented occupations in later life
Even if you could prove that those Scandinavian families who chose to participate in "de-gendering" where the same Scandinavians who gravitated toward careers in the flawed thing/people dichotomy (which you can't)
And even if you could somehow make the thing/ people dichotomy less flawed...
In order for your statement to be valid, the degendering experiment you speak of would need to have started in 1995-2000 in order for it to have had ANY possible impact on careers that people are choosing today, because it takes 20-25 years of "upbringing" to get from birth to career selection.
You haven't even done the bare minimum required work to prove that a massive degendering experiment happened Scandanavia-wide AT ALL, much less that such an experiment occurred within the required time frame to have an impact upon observable career selection behaviour.
If you do the work and provide the citations to change my mind, I'm willing to change it. Until then, I'm going to continue to operate on the assumption that your argument doesn't really have a leg to stand on.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/13 00:29:51
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
