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 Mr_Rose wrote:

Voss wrote:
So, the official paradigm shift is MSU infantry swarms always, right?

This thing still deletes two marines per shot or four guardsmen since the MW are additional damage. MSU might not fare so well either on that basis.

Assuming it can wound them through THP.

Not quite back to its glory days of being capable of one-shot ting land raiders, but a ridiculous monster gun.

GW needs to start buffing toughness for heavy vehicles and monsters so they aren't quite so easy to wound. If LD can now go to 11, land raiders and even titans should not be capped at t8.

Oh great, more utterly broken rules and stupid damage inflation. Just what the game needs

Observation #1, this thing utterly negates void shields. You know, the things that literally throw the railgun projectile into the warp. Somehow by magic it doesn't happen in this case and the target is still damaged Hell, even the ability to negate ++ saves is beyond idiotic, because superheavy energy weapons can't do that despite being ideal weapon to collapse energy fields, while something using easily deflectable by magnetic fields munitions laughs at shielding, warp fields, daemons telling physics to shut up, or impossibly advanced necron or eldar energy fields. Hell, this thing somehow can guess where holofielded or warp shifted target is, guess magic again

Observation #2, I like how lancer laser destroyer, or necron doom cannons, two weapons that used to be much better than this gak, are utterly useless next to it now. Hell, two railguns of Astraeus Superheavy Tank have half the strength, 1/3 of AP (and no ++ ignore), and 1/4 of damage (plus no MW) despite being larger and more advanced. At this rate both armies will need new books within next six months with every stat tripled just to catch up

Observation #3, I like how comically stupid the submunition rule is. When you fire at unit of two Terminators, on average one gets slightly wounded, but if you fire at three, they magically focus on one and kill him despite being dispersed projectiles. Oh, and you get doubly penalized for buying storm shields or chapter traits increasing durability because these will do nothing (despite working on every other anti-infantry weapon in the game). Or playing daemons/custodes/harlequins/necrons/etc that get their basic save stat negated somehow despite paying a premium for it (pity no one told the Emperor he could have just glued a dozen of these things to the Golden Throne instead of sitting on it personally to call it a day). To make it even worse, this also reliably counters hordes and turns Knight armies into ex-parrot making it anti-everything delete button. That's just crap game design. And I like how article calls it "short ranged" because frak you, covering whole table from inside of your deployment zone is nothing these days

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Not quite back to its glory days of being capable of one-shot ting land raiders, but a ridiculous monster gun.

GW needs to start buffing toughness for heavy vehicles and monsters so they aren't quite so easy to wound. If LD can now go to 11, land raiders and even titans should not be capped at t8.

I think this is potentially a sign of the "changes" they'll be bringing to 10th edition, since the lack of granularity is really starting to show with the older profiles of units for both weapons and unit stats. Weapons really need to spread out past the S8-10 that a lot of anti-tank weaponry was capped at and vehicles need both more wounds and higher T to reflect their ability to withstand chip damage. You can tell GW is currently band-aiding this issue through the widespread application of -1D and invuln. profileration amongst vehicles/monsters. If GW can get their heads out of their printers and do a game wide update for weapons and vehicle stats, I think we can finally have anti-tank guns like lascannons actually do their job while not being outdone by more generalist stuff like plasma.

 Irbis wrote:
Observation #1, this thing utterly negates void shields. You know, the things that literally throw the railgun projectile into the warp. Somehow by magic it doesn't happen in this case and the target is still damaged Hell, even the ability to negate ++ saves is beyond idiotic, because superheavy energy weapons can't do that despite being ideal weapon to collapse energy fields, while something using easily deflectable by magnetic fields munitions laughs at shielding, warp fields, daemons telling physics to shut up, or impossibly advanced necron or eldar energy fields. Hell, this thing somehow can guess where holofielded or warp shifted target is, guess magic again

Eh? Void shields work just fine against railguns. Depending on how many you have, you might even regen a few after being shot.

Don't worry, I'm sure people won't spam these. GW wouldn't expect it's players to be meanies.

Sub-munitions is the best blast weapon in the game too. It doesn't even need to roll to hit and rolls a die for every model with no max. It caps at 8MW.... Oh no not a paltry 8! It gets through hit mods, cover, armor, invulns....

It is nice to see an actual AT single shot gun that looks like it might actually be effective. I agree there are a bunch of weapons in the game that could warrant this level of upgrade to their AT potential. Personally I think the 3MW are a bit much. I think it would have been better to just make it D2d3+6 to get the same effect but without the weird quirks of the MW making this weapon great against small infantry squads (as MW carry over) or having a better chance of surviving because a units has a ignore MW ability (like GK). Or at least the 3MW should only trigger against Vech/Monsters (which I would bet what this gets nerfed to in six months).

Also, this is typical GW in that they hand out Invulnerable saves like candy, then go oops to much, and then make a bunch of stuff that ignores invulnerable saves, and I bet when codex daemons comes out there will be some kind of rule for like their main characters or relic that says "You can take your invulnerable save even if the weapon would ignore it", just so we can go full circle.

Just my thoughts.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Don't worry, I'm sure people won't spam these. GW wouldn't expect it's players to be meanies.

Ugh. The Tau FAQ is going to be like the Iron Hands FAQ. 'We didn't expect people to use the rules we wrote this way...'

Warhammer Community wrote :

The railgun is not the only big hitter getting a major update in the new Codex: T’au Empire – would you believe it isn’t even the strongest weapon in their arsenal?

 p5freak wrote:
Warhammer Community wrote :

The railgun is not the only big hitter getting a major update in the new Codex: T’au Empire – would you believe it isn’t even the strongest weapon in their arsenal?

I live in fear of what the Stormsurge will bring to the table(top).

 p5freak wrote:
Warhammer Community wrote :

The railgun is not the only big hitter getting a major update in the new Codex: T’au Empire – would you believe it isn’t even the strongest weapon in their arsenal?

I really wouldn't worry, isn't a stompa in melee "a stronger weapon" etc. the community site usually just latch onto some obscure metric to make something sound ludicrous.

The rail gun however I do like, I just think something is off. The ignores invuln is the big issue but I also understand why they don't want it just sat on a shelf because people scoff at one shot weapons into invulns.

 Irbis wrote:
Oh great, more utterly broken rules and stupid damage inflation. Just what the game needs

Observation #1, this thing utterly negates void shields. You know, the things that literally throw the railgun projectile into the warp. Somehow by magic it doesn't happen in this case and the target is still damaged Hell, even the ability to negate ++ saves is beyond idiotic, because superheavy energy weapons can't do that despite being ideal weapon to collapse energy fields, while something using easily deflectable by magnetic fields munitions laughs at shielding, warp fields, daemons telling physics to shut up, or impossibly advanced necron or eldar energy fields. Hell, this thing somehow can guess where holofielded or warp shifted target is, guess magic again

Inv save is only part of void shield.

Also void shields dontt neccessarily throw projectiles into warp. That's one of several fluff explanations.

And in any case for sake of balance it needs to be pretty darn good to make it worth it. If it doesn't ignore inv then basically any 1 shot at weapon needs to cost minus points to be worth considering

What a complicated way of bringing back Instant Death. Without anyway to gain Immortal Warrior.

Psychocouac wrote:
In the current codex, the BS3+ is due to the targeting array or it's the base profil? Because if targeting array is now reroll to hit then maybe the HH is now BS4+.

That would still allow to boost it to 3+ with laser designation. (and reroll on top of that.)

that was a 4th or 5th edition thing where the tanks had a +1 BS upgrade and the Hammerhead got it by default.

 Grimskul wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And Submunitions is a strat now, because of course it fething is...

It definitely sucks, but to be fair did anyone ever use the submunition profile to begin with? It was god-awful, D6 shots S6 AP-1 blast? At least with the strat it seems semi-useful. I'm not sure if GW would have given them an actual decent profile to use since people would be complaining even more that it does literally everything.

Haven’t posted on here in forever, but I’m honestly just amazed that anyone has managed to complain this wasn’t strong enough.

 xeen wrote:
It is nice to see an actual AT single shot gun that looks like it might actually be effective. I agree there are a bunch of weapons in the game that could warrant this level of upgrade to their AT potential. Personally I think the 3MW are a bit much. I think it would have been better to just make it D2d3+6 to get the same effect but without the weird quirks of the MW making this weapon great against small infantry squads (as MW carry over) or having a better chance of surviving because a units has a ignore MW ability (like GK). Or at least the 3MW should only trigger against Vech/Monsters (which I would bet what this gets nerfed to in six months).

Also, this is typical GW in that they hand out Invulnerable saves like candy, then go oops to much, and then make a bunch of stuff that ignores invulnerable saves, and I bet when codex daemons comes out there will be some kind of rule for like their main characters or relic that says "You can take your invulnerable save even if the weapon would ignore it", just so we can go full circle.

Just my thoughts.

They hand out invul saves like candy because no one brought vehicles that didn't have an invul, because 9th edition AT guns are so damn effective compared to the wound count of tanks.

Well, we have to assume this will be costed appropriately. For comparison, the current Tank Commander (BS3) with a Vanquisher cannon is 190 points w/hull heavy bolter, and the AdMech Onager Dunecrawler with Neutron Laser comes in at a WHOPPING 120 points.

Given the current codex creep, that puts the Hammerhead at roughly 75 points.

I hate this thing. This gun right here is the reason this gun will never see play.

It's literally its own best counter. This gun can never get popular because the thing it kills best is itself.

The only meaningful meta impact it could have is making rhino chassis' even dumber investments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Don't worry, I'm sure people won't spam these. GW wouldn't expect it's players to be meanies.

You literally can't spam these. If you try hammerhead spam and run into another Tau player who runs hammerhead spam, whoever goes first automatically wins. Also, even with submunitions, no infantry army cares about the railgun profile.

It's a gun designed to punish imperial/Chaos players for trying to bring rhino chassis and Tau players for trying to bring hammerheads. Which is the real reason it's so stupid.

ERJAK wrote:
I hate this thing. This gun right here is the reason this gun will never see play.

It's literally its own best counter. This gun can never get popular because the thing it kills best is itself.

The only meaningful meta impact it could have is making rhino chassis' even dumber investments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Don't worry, I'm sure people won't spam these. GW wouldn't expect it's players to be meanies.

You literally can't spam these. If you try hammerhead spam and run into another Tau player who runs hammerhead spam, whoever goes first automatically wins. Also, even with submunitions, no infantry army cares about the railgun profile.

It's a gun designed to punish imperial/Chaos players for trying to bring rhino chassis and Tau players for trying to bring hammerheads. Which is the real reason it's so stupid.

If tau have any competitive legs, this suppresses the very existence of vehicles. Like, Space marines and Custodes are full out of the running cause dreadnoughts are a dead model in the meta if Tau have a place.

 Da Boss wrote:
Tau as Imperium Mk2: A Little Bit Nicer is just not that interesting. I prefer them as a foil to the Imperium than a Mini-Me. YMMV, I know a lot of people don't agree with that.

If the tau are the good guys then it makes GW look extremely bad with all the focus they put on the ubermensch stormtroopers of their evil fascist empire. It's easier to swallow the horrible fascism if everything sucks.

tneva82 wrote:
Has decent abilities to start and t3 isn't as late　in aos3 as it's in 40k. 2 to 3 double turn for example is hell of a lot more　powerful than 1 to 2. There's reason why going 2nd is　rewarded on round 3.

AoS regularly is decided in the first two turns

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
I have had enough “the ends justifies the means” in my real life… for my gaming I would like a choice in a fictional setting to not have to accept the ends justifies the means.

What sold me on 40K as a teenager in the 80’s was what appeared to be an epic last stand of Crimson Fist Imperial Marines, back to back, holding against what is implied are impossible odds. The Alamo, Roarkes Drift, Arnhem… but without the historical baggage associated with those situations. Then it turns out the Imperium of Man is pretty irredeemable. The Eldar turn out to be pretty dodgy too. So I quit the game and lost interest in the 40k universe. Until the Tau came out. That surprised me and intrigued me. But of course that could not last. The idea of modeling humans in service to the “Greater Good” of the Tau lost all appeal.

I get that it is hard to sell violence as a game in any kind of clean and noble context given current widespread cultural beliefs. When it is done it is often misinterpreted… hence the whole need to make such a statement against hate outside the game world. I just think GW has made an artistic mistake not to have an example of a culture that has not succumbed to fear and the temptation of the easy path. Which is how I see having the ends justify the means. That is pure fear speaking.

Folks want to like 40k and it’s grimmest of grimdark, cool for them. Enjoy. I am just expressing why I do not like it and what I think GW could do to change it if they wanted to. I know some folks would then complain because not everyone is going to agree. I know some folks ignore GW and see the Imperial Marines as noble Heroes to look up to. Some folks might see making Tau “good guys” as GW supporting socialism the same way some folks might see GW painting the Imperium as “good guys” appears to support religious fundamentalism and fascism.

It is a tricky thing making one of the most widely recognized and financially successful wargaming IP in the world.

40k isn't the ends justify the means. The people who think this are falling for fascist bs, GW itself is pretty clear that the ends don't justify the means, because the ends are monstrous and unjustifiable in their own right. The imperium COULD be run in a non monstrous and radically more efficient way and humans living in it would be better off for the change. Humanity in 40k is not preserved by the fascism or brutality of the imperium.

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.

The problem is that the setting revolves around the imperium and having a faction that is legitimately and earnestly good makes GW's decision to focus the lens on the fascist hellstate deeply problematic in a way that their dissonance between "look cool space marines" and "The imperium is bad guys" already kind of presents us. It's more problematic for the Tau to be genuinely good, because then, well, why are we spending all our time focused on the fascist hellstate?

 Arbitrator wrote:
The dislike for Tau being less morally black compared to other factions always seemed to come from that segment who wanted their ANGELS OF DEATH FOR THE EMPEROR to be perceived as the only 'righteous' figures.

The tau also use a caste system and that is always inevitably awful, and it would be quite a lot of dissonance for me to overlook just the basic core ideas behind the tau to see them as good (it's also why I get a giggle every time people call the tau communist. Like, their society is based off someone's half remembered read of Plato's Republic, not the communist manifesto)

 Grimskul wrote:
Huh, GW are actually addressing the issue of the one shot anti tank weapons relatively properly for once. I guess we'll have to see how they price the Hammerhead since GW often overvalues these types of things, but it's a start! Actually feels like it'll do more than just spamming High Yield Missile Pods or Fusion Blasters. You'll probably still want to save a reroll for the wound roll though.

Let's hope this is a sign for LR Vanquisher Cannons to get similar treatment!

They have to overvalue it or this thing completely closes off like 3 entire types of models by itself. You literally can't play tanks, monsters, or superheavies into a hammerhead unless the hammerhead is overcosted

Sarouan wrote:
Good. At last the Railgun Hammerhead is becoming fearsome again. Not like previous edition where it was considered like a wimp.

And yeah, that's what it does : destroy enemies big things.

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure it will still die fast to the enemy's own anti-vehicle weaponry.

9th edition lethality is here to stay, anyway.

Unless you're a damage 2 army, then your lethality is more akin to smacking people with pool noodles.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I feel sick!!!

Because 40k needed more lethality?

Forces with 3 of these are going to just dominate, old Tau players will more than likely have 3 or kore of these in their collection, so it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine seeing Tau with 3 of these becoming a regular sight.

Knights are boned hard by these, really hard, as in, of the Knights can make it to turn 3 they have been either very lucky, or the Tau player was asleep at the wheel.

 stonehorse wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I feel sick!!!

Because 40k needed more lethality?

Forces with 3 of these are going to just dominate, old Tau players will more than likely have 3 or kore of these in their collection, so it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine seeing Tau with 3 of these becoming a regular sight.

Knights are boned hard by these, really hard, as in, of the Knights can make it to turn 3 they have been either very lucky, or the Tau player was asleep at the wheel.

If the Knights go first they simply kill the Hammerheads providing they can get LoS. Unless something drastically changes Hammerheads are not hard to kill.

If knights can see them going first terrain has been designed pretty badly

Knowing typos are a thing on Warhammer community, it could be d6 + 3 damage in the proper codex.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Knowing typos are a thing on Warhammer community, it could be d6 + 3 damage in the proper codex.

Don't blame that on WarCom. Usually when there have been weapon errors on the preview articles, the exact same errors show up in the proper codex.

But given how pumped they are about the killing power, this seems intentional, not something to be waved off as a 'mistake.'

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Knowing typos are a thing on Warhammer community, it could be d6 + 3 damage in the proper codex.

It could even end up being 3D6 damage.

No wait that will be saved for the FAQ

 FactoruM wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Knowing typos are a thing on Warhammer community, it could be d6 + 3 damage in the proper codex.

It could even end up being 3D6 damage.

No wait that will be saved for the FAQ

36 Damage

Aim for the sky!

Clearly GW had a large quantity of Hammerhead inventory they wanted to move.

This just seems way over the top. I'd like to hear what feedback the play testers had and if it was listened to.

It seems like this one weapon is going to place an extreme amount of importance on getting 1st turn.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

36 Damage

Aim for the sky!

The sky takes 3 mortal wounds, and is removed from the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

It seems like this one weapon is going to place an extreme amount of importance on getting 1st turn.

It has Fly, doesn't it? The Tau player can put it anywhere out of LOS, and then not have to worry about getting into optimal firing position whether they go first or second.