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Keramory wrote:
Being honest I feel conflicted about GWs message. I like the message itself and agree with it. There's a few issues though.

I cant help but feel like GW got swept up on dumb drama from a single player. I'm active online. I'm active in stores. I'm not seeing this wide spread nazi issue some people are claiming. Some people joke online being for the emperor but that isn't an issue within itself. The dude in Spain was an idiot. I hope he gets banned from anything he partakes in. But a company wide message? Feels like karma point farming more then anything.

Bear in mind that the internet fuels and feeds controversy. It takes things that, in person and between relatively small numbers, can be addressed easily (yes, of course we kick the Nazi out of the tournament) and magnifies into a giant them vs. them battle of titanic proportions where the fate of the internet and keyboard jockeys around the world is at stake. But because internet outbursts are so visible and draws the eye of people who know nothing about GW into the debate, the company is put in a position where they have to respond, for saying nothing will be viewed as tacit acceptance.

Keramory wrote:
My other big issue is I agree that the imperium is bad. But where in recent media are you seeing it? Space Marines and Sisters are heroes of humanity in every trailer and image any more. It seems like GW isn't connecting with its other divisions and it's a mess. If you want the imperium to be bad stop making them good to the masses all the time.

It's a strange feeling complaining about the article. Again I agree with it over all. It just feels ingenuine and a move from a young social media manager who took it upon himself to PR for the entite company.

The problem is that far too much of the recent media and content (visuals, etc.) coming out of GW presents the space marines as the ultimate badass good guys doing the "god" emperors righteous work. The lore and setting has pushed that narrative forward, the artwork styles reinforce it, etc. 15 years ago the lore was more stagnant but the amount of content and impressions one got of marines being shock troops pressing down rebellions and the like, and then whole planets being purged or whatever, felt far more present. The sense of satire has slipped away. The visual depiction of the imperium, marines included, was one laced with terror and horror. It was not a space a decent human being wanted to be in, regardless of whether they wore power armor or not. Now? The marines are depicted in a constantly glorified light.

I will say, that the only thing they did recently that I thought was brilliant was the 6th Hammer & Bolter episode where there were flashbacks to marines destroying an eldar craftworld. That puts it in perspective that the Imperium, and by extension the marines as its prized troops, are quite terrifying, inhuman, cruel, and mindless in their own convictions to follow the word of the emperor. It's terrifying.

I dont know if I agree that they had to respond. I'm sure the person who wrote the article felt that way. But a single dumb person being edgy doesn't warrant a company statement unless there is literal death involved. That's just where we have a difference of opinion though. It's not like I have any facts to back that up. It's just awkward to me when comparing the action and reaction. If I had to compare it to anything it'd be like if I was a famous YT creator and made an entire video to address a single dislike. I'm exaggerating of course but that's closer to how it feels then bring justified to make the article.

Do agree with the hammer and bolter. The eldar episode was heavy in the feels. They need more of exactly that if they want to push the imperium being as evil as it used to reflect as.

I admit I wasn't following the internet outburst / rage machine in this particular case (I heard about it more after the fact). But my sense is that a company is going to respond to these sorts of things when it crosses some unacceptable level of exposure.

It wasn't just one dumb person being edgy that was the problem per se. It was that internet rage was going viral about that one dumb person, with lots of people piling on to the situation from both sides. Someone looking in from outside now just sees "lots of people arguing and having a controversy that's getting really political" and start wondering what GW thinks. Basically, the situation went well beyond just one dumb guy, to many, many angry people yelling at each other. Because "the internet". Unfortunately, it reflects on the company involved, so their PR wizards decided to say something about.

 BertBert wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
[SOMEONE, I mean its hard you really do need kind of a degree in art appreciation to figure it out but SOMEONE in this picture is being portrayed as good, i'm sure.

The French?

Marseillaise and the urge to enlighten via force intensifies.

Keramory wrote:
I dont know if I agree that they had to respond. I'm sure the person who wrote the article felt that way. But a single dumb person being edgy doesn't warrant a company statement unless there is literal death involved. That's just where we have a difference of opinion though. It's not like I have any facts to back that up. It's just awkward to me when comparing the action and reaction. If I had to compare it to anything it'd be like if I was a famous YT creator and made an entire video to address a single dislike. I'm exaggerating of course but that's closer to how it feels then bring justified to make the article.

Eh. I think they did need to respond, because it isn't just a single guy in some Spanish tournament. Just here, my ignore list has been filling up with people since the Star Wars sequels and Ghostbusters movie threads of people who are blatantly racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic or otherwise just horrible bigots. And every time, _every_ time women, female space marines, nazis, etc come up, the same usual suspects are back being their usual bigoted selves and claiming Nazis aren't so bad, and women, minorities and queer people need to be put in their place or at least in deceptively mild language are clear that they feel people like that don't have a place.

It isn't a huge number, but it is identifiably the same people with, unfortunately, a bit of growth over time.

And I've met similar people (and occasionally worse) in game shops over the years. I've turned around and walked out of two shops because of pro-slavery discussions, of all things. (not only that it was good and right, but of benefit to the enslaved. I was happy to see both those shops close, despite the relative lack of hobby shops)

As I understand it there are people out there that have fetishised the totalitarianism of the imperium of man, assuming that if such a government were formed where they live that they would thrive, see their political desires implemented (violently) and they would some how rise to the top whilst other communities were oppressed. The truth is they would be crushed under its jackboot the same as everyone else.

My grandad was a polish prsioner of war (ww2) taken as a child into forced labour camps where he worked along side the Germans until the war ended. He told me that the Germans he worked with were not treated any better than the conscription labour brought in from poland. They were treated badly, given no more and if the put a foot wrong they disappeared never to be seen again.

But these 40K players don’t want what they say they want, they just want to tell everyone they think they know better and are better than anyone else. I suggest avoiding them at all costs and well done for GW putting out a statement against hate.

OP I would suggest you look back to rogue trader and 2nd edition fully to get a real sense of what the imperium of man is really supposed to be like. Grim Dark. It’s a bad place to be but people only work together because if they don’t all enemies of humanity will destroy them.

Your army that you have built can still be good guys, morally good people that are just trying to watch each other’s backs and make it through the next battle.

It’s like if you play space marines your chapter could be the never leave a civilian behind kind of space marines or the never leave a civilian alive kind of space marines, bother exist.

With respect to people who want the Imperium sanitized, I really disagree... there should be depictions of everyone's favorite space waifu Celestine, or at least her Sororitas goons if she's delegating, seizing infants born with physical deformities out of their mother's hands and dashing their skulls against the flagstones of Imperial temples. And then when their community protests that industrial waste from factories to fuel the Imperial war machine is polluting their communities and causing said deformities, they're gunned down by Arbites and the survivors tortured for treason. Just to remind people that the Imperium *is* that kind of evil.

 BertBert wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
[SOMEONE, I mean its hard you really do need kind of a degree in art appreciation to figure it out but SOMEONE in this picture is being portrayed as good, i'm sure.

The French?

Almost spit out my sandwich.

Because the Imperium is portrayed as the worst of all possible political institutions, and they're tired of people not getting it?

Companies have to take a stand BEFORE the gak hits the fan nowadays, or they'll be accused of doing too little too late. Look at Blizzard's problems for a good example.

Bashing on "Nazis" is harmless to you, and free publicity, much like in an Indiana Jones movie.

Now that they have publicly taken a stand against "extremist" ideologies, they can defend themselves from further community' derailing like the one that happened during that event.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Because the Imperium is portrayed as the worst of all possible political institutions, and they're tired of people not getting it?

Well, no, the Imperium *used* to be portrayed as the worst of all possible political (and religious) institutions.

Then GW decided to just publish endless waves of material about Marines (especially Primaris) saving the universe over and over and over with their sheer awesomeness.

So despite supposedly being the worst thing ever, the Imperium instead ends up feeling like a necessary evil at worst and an active force for good at best.

Perhaps we need more stories that don't have Marines (or other imperial agents) as protagonists but as villains? I know that *every* race in 40k is meant to be a villain in some manner but there exist degrees of villainy. Even some short stories could go a long way. Imagine a scarred survivor remembering or telling the story of how their colony was invaded by Orks or whatever, and then the Space Marines were sent to help. Except that the Space marines turned out to be far more horrifying than the rampaging Orks, systematically annihilating every colonist who'd come into contact with them. Hell, could even be a guardsman who was instructed by the Space Marines to carry out that extermination order.

Basically just some more material that really reflects the nightmarish nature of the Imperium. As opposed to "GW would like to remind its players that the Imperium is bad and that GW is a diverse, inclusive, tolerant company that would never support fascism or other evil ideologies . . . NOW BUY THE LATUST BOOK THAT SHOWS GLORIOUS HEROES OF THE IMPERIUM SAVING THE UNIVERSE FROM XENO SCUM!"

I think a good question coming out of this thread is:

Does the way GW market 40K to new players really represent the truth of the games setting at all. Or are space marines marketed as really cool avengers type heroes.

The first whit dwarf I bought in the 90s had cover art of the big cathedral titan from epic and it was super grim dark. Good guys wouldn’t develop a walking cathedral death machine.

 vipoid wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Because the Imperium is portrayed as the worst of all possible political institutions, and they're tired of people not getting it?

NOW BUY THE LATUST BOOK THAT SHOWS GLORIOUS HEROES OF THE IMPERIUM SAVING THE UNIVERSE FROM XENO SCUM!"

Yeah...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroic_realism

You see, that's a little bit of bias talking. There's no real way to discern that art as good or bad guys without context. It's just a cool, over the top piece of art. Same as Scotsman's on the previous page.

The artwork is garish and over the top, but there's nothing inherent there that says "these are all the bad guys". Quite the opposite actually. The orks are in the foreground looking menacing with ramshackle guns, dark colours and sharp teeth, whereas the marine is in bright, standout colour in quite a traditional sword raised, heriocly defiant pose. If i saw that with no context, my immediate thought would be the marine was the good guy.

That old artwork has marines trying to look heroic, but it’s in such a style that it doesn’t really look like real heroism.

Having read Devastation of Baal recently, there was no doubt that BAs and their successors are a sick bunch of motherf*ers. That one dude casually killed a native and drank the blood from his skull. They also nuked an entire planet just to win some time against the looming Tyranid invasion.

Thing with Space Marines is that they are both sides of the coin. They are heroic and glorious, because they are the defenders of humanity and formidable in combat. They are also tragic and twisted due to their indoctrination and heritage. These things are not mutually exclusive, because the setting provides the right context for both to exist simultaneously.

When giant space bugs, deamons from hell and genocidal robots come knocking, it's difficult not to make SMs out as the heroes of humanity.

 BertBert wrote:
When giant space bugs, deamons from hell and genocidal robots come knocking, it's difficult not to make SMs out as the heroes of humanity.

What do you mean by heroes? Do you mean powerful, larger than life characters? Or characters embodying a good ideal? Because the Imperium has plenty of the former, and basically none of the latter.

Hecaton wrote:With respect to people who want the Imperium sanitized, I really disagree... there should be depictions of everyone's favorite space waifu Celestine, or at least her Sororitas goons if she's delegating, seizing infants born with physical deformities out of their mother's hands and dashing their skulls against the flagstones of Imperial temples. And then when their community protests that industrial waste from factories to fuel the Imperial war machine is polluting their communities and causing said deformities, they're gunned down by Arbites and the survivors tortured for treason. Just to remind people that the Imperium *is* that kind of evil.

Yup, if you were to take Ghengis Khan, Vlad of Wallachia, King Leopold, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and add them up & bake for 30000ish years, you would have a pretty good idea of what the Imperium is & why it is the way it is. Good guys finish last and BiggiE sure as gak ain't no good guy.

Hecaton wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
When giant space bugs, deamons from hell and genocidal robots come knocking, it's difficult not to make SMs out as the heroes of humanity.

What do you mean by heroes? Do you mean powerful, larger than life characters? Or characters embodying a good ideal? Because the Imperium has plenty of the former, and basically none of the latter.

The setting leaves little room for the latter, but SMs do embody some classic heroic ideals, such as determination and stalwartness in the face of overwhelming odds.

 Nurglitch wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Because the Imperium is portrayed as the worst of all possible political institutions, and they're tired of people not getting it?

NOW BUY THE LATUST BOOK THAT SHOWS GLORIOUS HEROES OF THE IMPERIUM SAVING THE UNIVERSE FROM XENO SCUM!"

Yeah...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroic_realism

Are you implying that GWs marketing team is an Imperial mouth piece?

Racerguy180 wrote:
Yup, if you were to take Ghengis Khan, Vlad of Wallachia, King Leopold, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and add them up & bake for 30000ish years, you would have a pretty good idea of what the Imperium is & why it is the way it is. Good guys finish last and BiggiE sure as gak ain't no good guy.

Ironically, if the Imperium wasn't made up of such gaks they might be doing better - they could build bridges with non-human races, and the Warp wouldn't be so fethed up from all the negative emotions humans are skeeting out into the Immaterium. It's not a matter of "Good guys finish last" - it's more a matter of bad guys getting their just desserts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BertBert wrote:
The setting leaves little room for the latter, but SMs do embody some classic heroic ideals, such as determination and stalwartness in the face of overwhelming odds.

Ok, but do we admire SS who displayed that kind of behavior against the Allies in WWII?

Keramory wrote:
But a single dumb person being edgy...

It was a team tournament. The feth bag had *enablers*.

One cannot address extremists by shrugging one's shoulders and effectively saying "Huh, just another lone wolf."

Hecaton wrote:


Ok, but do we admire SS who displayed that kind of behavior against the Allies in WWII?

No, but the SS was also not the last bastion between humanity and extinction. The context is not quite the same.

 BertBert wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


Ok, but do we admire SS who displayed that kind of behavior against the Allies in WWII?

No, but the SS was also not the last bastion between humanity and extinction. The context is not quite the same.

If fascism is the last bastion between humanity and extinction, we deserve extinction.

Keramory wrote:
Being honest I feel conflicted about GWs message. I like the message itself and agree with it. There's a few issues though.

I cant help but feel like GW got swept up on dumb drama from a single player. I'm active online. I'm active in stores. I'm not seeing this wide spread nazi issue some people are claiming. Some people joke online being for the emperor but that isn't an issue within itself. The dude in Spain was an idiot. I hope he gets banned from anything he partakes in. But a company wide message? Feels like karma point farming more then anything.

My other big issue is I agree that the imperium is bad. But where in recent media are you seeing it? Space Marines and Sisters are heroes of humanity in every trailer and image any more. It seems like GW isn't connecting with its other divisions and it's a mess. If you want the imperium to be bad stop making them good to the masses all the time.

It's a strange feeling complaining about the article. Again I agree with it over all. It just feels ingenuine and a move from a young social media manager who took it upon himself to PR for the entite company.

GW is trying to push growth and drive the brand mainstream, that means it needs to take an active stand against hate groups in its ecosphere lest it acquire a reputation for itself as a brand that caters to neo-nazis, etc. as failing to do so could potentially poison the brand and ruin its appeal to broader audiences. Theres also that old story about not allowing nazis, even well behaved nazis at the bar, because if you let the guy enjoy his drink in peace, the next time he'll bring his friends because its a safe space for nazis to grab a drink, and then pretty soon your entire crowd of regulars changes and you have yourself a nazi bar.

And I ASSURE you, as someone whos significant other works marketing for a major game publisher, such announcements are not put out by a "young social media manger who took it upon himself to PR for the entire company". This announcement would have been vetted, turned over, debated, rewritten several times over, and approved by senior leadership, legal, multiple VPs, etc.

But a single dumb person being edgy doesn't warrant a company statement unless there is literal death involved.

Its not a single dumb person, its a persistent and ongoing issue that has gained more and more visibility and attention over the past several years. That single dumb person was just the most recent but potentially also one of the most visible recent examples of the problem "in the real world" as opposed to just edgelords on youtube stirring gak up.

Hecaton wrote:
With respect to people who want the Imperium sanitized, I really disagree... there should be depictions of everyone's favorite space waifu Celestine, or at least her Sororitas goons if she's delegating, seizing infants born with physical deformities out of their mother's hands and dashing their skulls against the flagstones of Imperial temples. And then when their community protests that industrial waste from factories to fuel the Imperial war machine is polluting their communities and causing said deformities, they're gunned down by Arbites and the survivors tortured for treason. Just to remind people that the Imperium *is* that kind of evil.

This is the way. We all said we wanted grimdark, right?

Well, no, the Imperium *used* to be portrayed as the worst of all possible political (and religious) institutions.
Then GW decided to just publish endless waves of material about Marines (especially Primaris) saving the universe over and over and over with their sheer awesomeness.

I mean the 40k intro text thats at the front of basically every book literally says the imperium is "the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable" and to "forget the power of technology and science. forget the promise of progress and advanement. Forget any notion of common humanity and compassion." This is a problem where they have "told" but not "shown" I think, as the limited studio fluff (particularly as of late) tells us that it is all awful, but much of the fluff churned out by black library has failed to aptly (and to a lesser extent Warhammer Plus) has failed to aptly show us what this means.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
The artwork is garish and over the top, but there's nothing inherent there that says "these are all the bad guys". Quite the opposite actually. The orks are in the foreground looking menacing with ramshackle guns, dark colours and sharp teeth, whereas the marine is in bright, standout colour in quite a traditional sword raised, heriocly defiant pose. If i saw that with no context, my immediate thought would be the marine was the good guy.

Okay, but then you look at the 9th Ed cover art, where the de facto ruler of the Imperium is depicted as a literal angel with wings and halo, illuminated from on high like a Renaissance painting, positioned above a fire-and-brimstone rendition of the same character archetype. It's not exactly subtle.

I have to agree that it seems like GW wants to have their cake and eat it too. Much of the marketing for 40K- art, animations, games- is Marine-centric bolter porn depicting them as heroic space knights and defenders of humanity against aliens and ravening Chaos hordes. You have to already be invested and really start reading into the lore to learn just how dysfunctional and downright evil the Imperium is, and that Marines are its unquestioning enforcers.

 Octopoid wrote:


If fascism is the last bastion between humanity and extinction, we deserve extinction.

We've prevailed against fascism more than one time, so I'd rather take my chances being alive.

Edit: This must be one of the worst takes I've seen in a long time.

 BertBert wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:


If fascism is the last bastion between humanity and extinction, we deserve extinction.

We've prevailed against fascism more than one time, so I'd rather take my chances being alive.

Edit: This must be one of the worst takes I've seen in a long time.

You must not be paying attention, then.

 BertBert wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:


If fascism is the last bastion between humanity and extinction, we deserve extinction.

We've prevailed against fascism more than one time, so I'd rather take my chances being alive.

Edit: This must be one of the worst takes I've seen in a long time.

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

 Octopoid wrote:

 BertBert wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:


If fascism is the last bastion between humanity and extinction, we deserve extinction.

We've prevailed against fascism more than one time, so I'd rather take my chances being alive.

Edit: This must be one of the worst takes I've seen in a long time.

You must not be paying attention, then.

Honest question, no hard feelings:

Given the set of priorities you've just outlined, should humanity just get eaten by the nids at this stage? Or are you still hoping for some sort of redemption down the line?