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I have won vs dg, orks, BA and necrons with the new book. And sisters. but he actually came super close to breaking my army by sheer firepower. And I thought about a brutal build that might have done it: You can build an argent shroud army that advance and shoots 40-50 multi melta shots per turn (plus som other shooting) with emperors children rerolls. thats a huge threat range as they also get +1 to advance. Its like 12 inches of movement on average plus 24 inches of melta range. and every failed 4++ is basically a dead custodes/bike. I think that could hurt us. but I dont know how that fares vs other stuff.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
I have won vs dg, orks, BA and necrons with the new book. And sisters. but he actually came super close to breaking my army by sheer firepower. And I thought about a brutal build that might have done it: You can build an argent shroud army that advance and shoots 40-50 multi melta shots per turn (plus som other shooting) with emperors children rerolls. thats a huge threat range as they also get +1 to advance. Its like 12 inches of movement on average plus 24 inches of melta range. and every failed 4++ is basically a dead custodes/bike. I think that could hurt us. but I dont know how that fares vs other stuff.

Putting aside that your argent shroud build is A) a skew list that instantly losses to hordes, B) likely never going to see the table and C) possibly illegal (I don’t know if it is or not, a 25 mutlimelta list seems unlikely since you only get 1 cherub use a turn). There’s still a high chance any 6+ Bike list crushes it. Remember even if they can advance and shoot, there should be no reason all those melta’s should be able to target stuff. Their will die quicker than our stuff I can tell you that!

its 4x5 sisters with an mm in each. 3x5 retributors with mm. 3 immolators, 3 paragons with mm and there is even room for some seraphim for scoring, sacresants for holding a central marker and other stuff. It is skewed, though, and yeah, I haven't seen it on the table yet.

idk if it looses straight out to hordes. probably. but if you take out 30-40 models a turn (hitting on 3s rerolling), I mean.. thats no joke and the list has the mobility to be where it needs to be at all times.

its very strong on paper at least. And if I was going to a tourney right now I wouldn't be super concerned about hordes. All im saying is that it could really just delete half our army t1 or if there is a lot of obscuring, stay back an d pop out when we sit on the board ready to score.

but yes. im prolly just being ghost as no-one has played this : )

It's a few months down the line, but what are the most likely nerfs we are going to get hit by? Redditors are already screeching that we should be nerfed to the ground, but what's actually likely?
Trajann going up in points is a given in my opinion. Since everybody hates our bikes right now, I assume that they are going to get a price hike as well, I don't think they should lose core however. I've seen a LOT of people arguing that our stratagems are OP, undercosted and generally the best strats in the game and that they should get an increase in CP cost. This I'm firmly against though, since most of our survivability is tied to these stratagems now. Straight up nerfing the effect or increasing the cost to 2/3 CP would be too much imo.

honestly, I dont think we should be nerfed at all. the book is good, but its nothing like drukhari or admech. the army building is smooth and versatile and those 4++ saves are manageable for most armies. we are still a hyper elite army and every failed save costs us around 50 points.

I honestly dont se the army as the source of NPE as it used to be. the strats are cool and play very well to mitigate the loss of the fabled 3++.

The meta will adjust and we will settle as a lower a-tier army. thats as it should be.

that said, we will se points hikes. probably bikes which is a shame. Trajan could cost 170, I guess.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
honestly, I dont think we should be nerfed at all. the book is good, but its nothing like drukhari or admech. the army building is smooth and versatile and those 4++ saves are manageable for most armies. we are still a hyper elite army and every failed save costs us around 50 points.

I honestly dont se the army as the source of NPE as it used to be. the strats are cool and play very well to mitigate the loss of the fabled 3++.

The meta will adjust and we will settle as a lower a-tier army. thats as it should be.

that said, we will se points hikes. probably bikes which is a shame. Trajan could cost 170, I guess.

The meta will adjust in the sense that more powercrept books will come out. Due to this, nerfs in 9th often haven’t age very well. So I’m hoping they don’t go too ham with the nerfs they give us.

That said I’m going to present Reddit’s case. From the most objective way of judging the power-level of books (tournament winrate) we are just as bad if not worse than ad-mech or drukhari.

We had a 60% winrate at LVO against the best the meta could offer. Anyone who wasn’t completely delusional could tell CA2022 was only going to increase this. Well now we are at a point of having a 67% winrate this last weekend using the new update. Outside of Tau no other armies broke a 52% winrate (at least none that got played by more than 2 people) . Most sat in 35-45% range, including sisters (41%) DG (38%), SM of all flavors (34-46%, depending on chapter) and orks (44%). Drukhari and Tyranids both sat around 50% exactly. Funnily enough, Ad-mech (51%) and necrons (52%)!where the only 9th Ed codex not named Tau or us to beat 50%.

Additionally, we where one the of most played factions as well. If you discount mirror matchups, we actually had a 72% winrate. Tau were the only army that came close to this, and they actually didn’t fully win events at nearly the same rate we did.

You can say “the meta will adjust” as much as you want. I just won’t believe you based on these stats, hearing drukhari players say the same thing when their book came out, and from my own anecdotal evidence of easily crushing any of my friends armies without need for skill.

FAQ is out. PP cap. counts as HI.

EC start it not on the list so it can be used on units that are not on the battlefield.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/osTrVtUQdSidgXpR.pdf

 nordsturmking wrote:
FAQ is out. PP cap. counts as HI.

EC start it not on the list so it can be used on units that are not on the battlefield.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/osTrVtUQdSidgXpR.pdf

so with the EC strat you can make the Achillus, who is coming in with from golden light, and make him solar watch to charge in at +1? are there any other good uses for this on off table units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Salt donkey wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
honestly, I dont think we should be nerfed at all. the book is good, but its nothing like drukhari or admech. the army building is smooth and versatile and those 4++ saves are manageable for most armies. we are still a hyper elite army and every failed save costs us around 50 points.

I honestly dont se the army as the source of NPE as it used to be. the strats are cool and play very well to mitigate the loss of the fabled 3++.

The meta will adjust and we will settle as a lower a-tier army. thats as it should be.

that said, we will se points hikes. probably bikes which is a shame. Trajan could cost 170, I guess.

The meta will adjust in the sense that more powercrept books will come out. Due to this, nerfs in 9th often haven’t age very well. So I’m hoping they don’t go too ham with the nerfs they give us.

That said I’m going to present Reddit’s case. From the most objective way of judging the power-level of books (tournament winrate) we are just as bad if not worse than ad-mech or drukhari.

We had a 60% winrate at LVO against the best the meta could offer. Anyone who wasn’t completely delusional could tell CA2022 was only going to increase this. Well now we are at a point of having a 67% winrate this last weekend using the new update. Outside of Tau no other armies broke a 52% winrate (at least none that got played by more than 2 people) . Most sat in 35-45% range, including sisters (41%) DG (38%), SM of all flavors (34-46%, depending on chapter) and orks (44%). Drukhari and Tyranids both sat around 50% exactly. Funnily enough, Ad-mech (51%) and necrons (52%)!where the only 9th Ed codex not named Tau or us to beat 50%.

Additionally, we where one the of most played factions as well. If you discount mirror matchups, we actually had a 72% winrate. Tau were the only army that came close to this, and they actually didn’t fully win events at nearly the same rate we did.

You can say “the meta will adjust” as much as you want. I just won’t believe you based on these stats, hearing drukhari players say the same thing when their book came out, and from my own anecdotal evidence of easily crushing any of my friends armies without need for skill.

I now the numbers are bad right now, and yes, the book is strong. But I honestly dont think its anywhere near drukhari or admech. I might be wrong, and it is more a hunch than anything, but when I look at the lists and build them myself I just really feel admech and drukhari have way more potential for building good, consistant armies that can score points, hold the board, kill stuff on their terms and win games.

I feel that once people figure out how to break our 20-30 model armies the faction will be reigned in. I mean look at it like this: right now there is so much 3dam or worse. more than ever. fact of the matter is that now, we die from half of all those shots that hit and wound. we used to die on 33pct of those. The defensive buffs are just straight up not compensating for that loss of survivability. we are a tad bit more Killy and our characters are better, but I dont think we will be better all around when the dust settles.

Salt donkey wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
honestly, I dont think we should be nerfed at all. the book is good, but its nothing like drukhari or admech. the army building is smooth and versatile and those 4++ saves are manageable for most armies. we are still a hyper elite army and every failed save costs us around 50 points.

I honestly dont se the army as the source of NPE as it used to be. the strats are cool and play very well to mitigate the loss of the fabled 3++.

The meta will adjust and we will settle as a lower a-tier army. thats as it should be.

that said, we will se points hikes. probably bikes which is a shame. Trajan could cost 170, I guess.

The meta will adjust in the sense that more powercrept books will come out. Due to this, nerfs in 9th often haven’t age very well. So I’m hoping they don’t go too ham with the nerfs they give us.

That said I’m going to present Reddit’s case. From the most objective way of judging the power-level of books (tournament winrate) we are just as bad if not worse than ad-mech or drukhari.

We had a 60% winrate at LVO against the best the meta could offer. Anyone who wasn’t completely delusional could tell CA2022 was only going to increase this. Well now we are at a point of having a 67% winrate this last weekend using the new update. Outside of Tau no other armies broke a 52% winrate (at least none that got played by more than 2 people) . Most sat in 35-45% range, including sisters (41%) DG (38%), SM of all flavors (34-46%, depending on chapter) and orks (44%). Drukhari and Tyranids both sat around 50% exactly. Funnily enough, Ad-mech (51%) and necrons (52%)!where the only 9th Ed codex not named Tau or us to beat 50%.

Additionally, we where one the of most played factions as well. If you discount mirror matchups, we actually had a 72% winrate. Tau were the only army that came close to this, and they actually didn’t fully win events at nearly the same rate we did.

You can say “the meta will adjust” as much as you want. I just won’t believe you based on these stats, hearing drukhari players say the same thing when their book came out, and from my own anecdotal evidence of easily crushing any of my friends armies without need for skill.

You got the gist of it right but a couple nit picky points:

Tau actually beats us by 1% when you exclude mirror (76% vs. 77% I believe). Tau was about 3% more likely to make 'placings' than Custodes when adjusted for number of players.

Basically, they're both in about the same position.

Yeah I’m not going to argue we are more OP than Tau. That said being about as OP as them still makes us too powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nordsturmking wrote:
FAQ is out. PP cap. counts as HI.

EC start it not on the list so it can be used on units that are not on the battlefield.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/osTrVtUQdSidgXpR.pdf

So they fixed obvious flaws like being able to actually run sisters in our custodes detachment and charging units being able to attack the PP termi captain. Outside of this there’s not really anything worth discussing IMO.

I think the problem with the meta adjustment hypothesis is that in spamming D3 weapons those armies become less efficient in a number of match ups. Its no good them skewing heavily against custodes to improve outcomes by a few % if in exchange they get hammered by Sisters/admech infantry spam etc where those weapons sre very inefficient.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/23/cook-up-your-space-marines-with-the-flick-of-a-switch-using-the-new-and-improved-fire-prism/

With all the leaks going around and now these news, Eldar seem to coming out swinging with their new codex. The ignore invuln rules are starting to become something of a banality it seems.

Tiberias wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/23/cook-up-your-space-marines-with-the-flick-of-a-switch-using-the-new-and-improved-fire-prism/

With all the leaks going around and now these news, Eldar seem to coming out swinging with their new codex. The ignore invuln rules are starting to become something of a banality it seems.

Just on Aeldari soup I think we're up to: Solitaires, Troupes with Harlequin's Caress, Avatars of Khaine, Yncarne and now these Fire Prisms that ignore invulns.

How many bikes atm is too many?

See lots of lists at 3x3 salvo bikes, with a bike captain, capping out at a cool half of our 2k lists.

I ran 2x3 at an RTT this weekend and it went well. What are you thinking is enough?

I certainly think the 3 man squads are probably the right amount of bikes in a squad at least.

 iGuy91 wrote:
How many bikes atm is too many?

See lots of lists at 3x3 salvo bikes, with a bike captain, capping out at a cool half of our 2k lists.

I ran 2x3 at an RTT this weekend and it went well. What are you thinking is enough?

I certainly think the 3 man squads are probably the right amount of bikes in a squad at least.

I do 3x3 and I'd never want to leave home without my third squad, but I think both are viable options.

Saw this in the FAQ and I was surprised by it. Were people trying to argue that you could force -2 Attacks per model on the enemy as long as we had two Shadowkeepers units within engagement range of that enemy?

Page 55 – Wardens of the Dark Cells
Change Trait 1 of this shield host fighting style to read:
‘While an enemy unit is within Engagement Range of one or more units with this trait, subtract 1 from the Attacks characteristic of each model in that enemy unit.’

Designer’s Note: The entry above changes ‘a unit’ to ‘one or more units’, so that this trait can subtract no more than 1 from the Attacks characteristic of models in affected enemy units.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Saw this in the FAQ and I was surprised by it. Were people trying to argue that you could force -2 Attacks per model on the enemy as long as we had two Shadowkeepers units within engagement range of that enemy?

Page 55 – Wardens of the Dark Cells
Change Trait 1 of this shield host fighting style to read:
‘While an enemy unit is within Engagement Range of one or more units with this trait, subtract 1 from the Attacks characteristic of each model in that enemy unit.’

Designer’s Note: The entry above changes ‘a unit’ to ‘one or more units’, so that this trait can subtract no more than 1 from the Attacks characteristic of models in affected enemy units.

From what I saw on Goonhammer, since this wasn't tagged as an 'aura', it stacking was apparently RAW according to them so I guess people were.

Audustum wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Saw this in the FAQ and I was surprised by it. Were people trying to argue that you could force -2 Attacks per model on the enemy as long as we had two Shadowkeepers units within engagement range of that enemy?

Page 55 – Wardens of the Dark Cells
Change Trait 1 of this shield host fighting style to read:
‘While an enemy unit is within Engagement Range of one or more units with this trait, subtract 1 from the Attacks characteristic of each model in that enemy unit.’

Designer’s Note: The entry above changes ‘a unit’ to ‘one or more units’, so that this trait can subtract no more than 1 from the Attacks characteristic of models in affected enemy units.

From what I saw on Goonhammer, since this wasn't tagged as an 'aura', it stacking was apparently RAW according to them so I guess people were.

I could see it both ways, so it's really better to get an errata than nothing at all.

Tiberias wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/23/cook-up-your-space-marines-with-the-flick-of-a-switch-using-the-new-and-improved-fire-prism/

With all the leaks going around and now these news, Eldar seem to coming out swinging with their new codex. The ignore invuln rules are starting to become something of a banality it seems.

But at the same time fire prism ignore invul is not a major problem for us. The first profile is AP2, so no difference there (might even be saved on lower than 4+), the big profile is at most Heavy 6, S14 at 3+ to hit, probably not core, and also costs 2CP, and the others can't shoot (so even though the net exchange is beneficial, they lose out on some target choosing flexibility and maybe have to overcommit). Yes, it will one shot anything we have, but it still is a huge commitment in points, CP, flexibility.

The harlequin also don't seem so overpowered. Yeah, melee attacks ignore invu for 2 CP, but they are still AP2.

Howling banshee's will be scary though. I read somewhere that they can do an obscene amount of mortal on the charge. Most units that do mortals in addition cap at 6, but for some reason they dont?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Howling banshee's will be scary though. I read somewhere that they can do an obscene amount of mortal on the charge. Most units that do mortals in addition cap at 6, but for some reason they dont?

To be fair, multiple units have been released in 9th that had no cap only to have a cap imposed I think.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Howling banshee's will be scary though. I read somewhere that they can do an obscene amount of mortal on the charge. Most units that do mortals in addition cap at 6, but for some reason they dont?

That’s not Banshees, it’s Scorpions. Emperors Chosen can deal with that pretty easily, but otherwise their MW output can be a danger. It’s the Fire Dragons you really need to worry about though. They can automatically wound at deepstrike range, and each failed invuln is a dead Custode. Since the wounds are automatic and rerolls aren’t part of the equation, the defensive Strats Custodes rely so heavily on simply do nothing.

Rivener wrote:
It’s the Fire Dragons you really need to worry about though. They can automatically wound at deepstrike range

They can't, the auto-wounds are within 9" only.

That's a good point since Deepstrike is outside 9" even if it's 9.01".

I dont understand what auspex is saying about fight first here at 8:50

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oTLEg4lunNo

A Dude who has fights first foghts before chargers too, right? So how would my opponent get to fight first with a Lone charger? I cant believe if this is not true. Ive played around 50 games of ninth and spectated hundreds online. I cant have gotten that wrong.

~)~ fights first is not confusing guys.

FIGHT PHASE ORDER:

1. Fights first units (starting with player who's turn it is and taking turns). Charging gives fights first, so all charging units go here unless they get hit with a fights last or something that says they dont count as having charged.

2. Fights normal units (starting with player who'd turn its not and aternating).

3. Fights last units (starting with player who'd turn it is and alternating).

Scoundrel80 wrote:
I dont understand what auspex is saying about fight first here at 8:50

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oTLEg4lunNo

A Dude who has fights first foghts before chargers too, right? So how would my opponent get to fight first with a Lone charger? I cant believe if this is not true. Ive played around 50 games of ninth and spectated hundreds online. I cant have gotten that wrong.

You got it wrong, unfortunately. Charging just gives you fight first. The designer commentary to the rules establishes that all fight first effects are treated the same. That includes charging. So the charging player still gets to activate one unit first, then you get to activate one of your fight first units, then the charging player can activate another charging unit (if there is one) and you can activate a fight first unit (if there is one).

Ok. So to being able to give out fight last is thousand Times better. I understand the Logic here. fight first bumps the Unit up into the chargers fighting sequence but it doesnt change the sequence.

So now that Custodes are winning a lot of majors, what are we thinking for the inevitable nerfs incomming?

We have at least 1 placing in every top 3 and most tournament finishes have multiple custodes lists in their top 5, in the last 3 months.

What sucks is the new mission styles all cater to exactly what we do best. "Hold the center of the board" objectives, or other things like our double secure units, really tilt the game for us.

I hate to say it, but Trajann needs a nerf, and we may need to re-think our unit costs, especially bikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4FsooC8WiA

Trajan and bikes will go up. Maybe achilles too