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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm one who gives credit where credit's due, and I bought all of GW's campaign books from 7th (and all the Apoc campaign expansions) because I wanted to support them doing more campaign content.

But the ones in 9th are a bridge too far. Not only are they split across two books, so if you want all the Crusade content for a particular release you need to buy the Campaign book and then the Crusade book, but most of the Crusade book's page count is just a reprint of the core rules.

I'd own every Crusade book tomorrow if I wasn't just buying the 40k Core rules over and over and over again.

I do absolutely 100% agree with this statement, for sure. I often skip the mission packs because I find the campaign books give me more of what I want from a Crusade resource... Which is kinda counterintuitive. Even if the reprint part of the mission pack was the Crusade content from the BRB rather than the core rules, that would be better (still not as good as putting it all in one book, but better).

If the current campaign scheme (and these moronic 'seasons' GW has decided to emulate) was a single campaign book with all the Crusade and Campaign stuff together, the pill would be a little less jagged, and a might less bitter.

For you, but the chorus would start up of all the players complaining about being forced to pay for Crusade content they didn't want to buy. GW can't win this one, so they just had to choose a path and walk it.

 alextroy wrote:
For you, but the chorus would start up of all the players complaining about being forced to pay for Crusade content they didn't want to buy. GW can't win this one, so they just had to choose a path and walk it.

Both books already have Crusade content in them, so that's not a valid concern at all.

EightFoldPath wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
First double supplement? These have been in the campaign books already. Dark Eldar got one. Ad Mech got one. Hive Fleet Behemoth got one. Cadians got one. Or you mean the first one to get two sets of DLC rules?

Yeah, the DLC rules GW is doing now is crap. They see the worst practices of the AAA gaming industry and decide to ape Warner Brothers Interactive's penchant for going "Oh! I can do that too! Only worse!".

Yep, they are the first to get two sets of supplements, they already have an OoML supplement.

At least if they are pumping out six supplements per codex, we might get an extra year out of 9th before 10th.

And thanks for making me think of the horror of a second DE supplement while they are still the meta top dogs.

Or not and just keep pumping out supplements in 10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:


The release of campaign books HAS been problematic for sure. But if GW ever decides to let campaign books replace edition churn, it'll be the best thing that's ever happened to the game.

Supplements aren't new for gw. They didn't stop edition changes before, they won' stop in future. 10th in 2023 with slight chance covid delays it by year.

Are the reprinted core rules in campaign books even updated with Errata? I remember when I spotted the 8th edition miniature core rules book lacked errata, that was shameful.

 jaredb wrote:
I'd rather see more Armies of Renown, than sub-faction supplements. I really like the army building themes those can create, and have the opportunity to be used by more sub-factions.

They could have cool things like rules for running all Phobos marines, or thematic armies like that.

I can create my own skew and themed armies. You can too. I made an army with 18 Wraiths, can you believe it? I also made one with 18 Skorpekh Destroyers. Nobody paid me or gave me extra rules for doing this, nobody even gave me extra rules for bringing 3 Monoliths or 3 Obelisks, I just did it because I thought it'd be interesting.

 Drachii wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
GW can’t win for losing.

“Muh army hasn’t seen a release for two years, six months and three days!”

**GW releases campaign supplement with new rules, models and whatnot.**

“Now I’ve got to tote around 10,000 books and supplements to run muh army!”

Someone will be along directly to utter the holy word 'Digital' and this will magically solve all the issues.

People still have to read the rules even if they are free and released digitally, these supplemental rules are Proposed Rules levels of gak. I'd criticize Proposed Rules posts a lot more if it was something millions were forced to read and a hundred times more if it was something the authors or GW were charging customers for.

PenitentJake wrote:
To clarify:

SM supplements and the supplements received in campaign books are not remotely comparable. SM supplements include far more of everything that campaign books include, but they additionally contain bespoke Crusade content, and often bespoke datacards- especially named characters- which campaign book supplements do not.

I think that all codexes should have been released before any campaign books.

I think that every faction should have received at least one supplement before any faction received a second- and I say that as a Sisters player.

However, IF all of the dexes had been out by now as planned, and IF the supplements had been spread among factions more evenly, I do think this is a better way of growing the game than "Gee, everything's out now, let's blow it all up, start a new edition and make you buy everything have alraedy bought 9 times ONE MORE TIME!"

The release of campaign books HAS been problematic for sure. But if GW ever decides to let campaign books replace edition churn, it'll be the best thing that's ever happened to the game.

I think the 9th edition change was needed and the Necrons and Space Marines codexes were needed. What isn't needed is a rule that makes Tyranid monsters Disgustingly Resilient for no reason, there is no reason for it to exist. You could make a Tyranid monster army without the extra rule and there is no reason why a Tyranid monstermash needs more help than a Necron or Craftworlds monstermash list does.

When do Armies of Renown make sense? When a thematic list lacking synergy prevents that list from being made viable via points without making a different list that makes use of synergy OP. There is greater synergy between Devastator Squads and Drop Pods than Tactical Squads and Drop Pods, so if a Devastator Squad + Drop Pod combo is good, then a Tactical Squad + Drop Pod combo will be less good. You could make an army of renown that boosts Tactical Squads in Drop Pods to make up for the lack of synergy.

ccs wrote:
I find it amusing that many if you will go on for pages about how you'd change a faction, or what you'd like to see added to it.

But when GW does add something? Then there's all kinds of complaining....

Also, you all decry general use rules content appearing in these campaign books. "DLC! RAAARGH!"
But yet you never rail on about it showing up in the pages of WD for some reason. In the current issue (471) both the SoB & Tyranids got content.
Why is that? What's the difference? What's triggering you on one but not the other?

If you are hungry and want ice cream but I give you boiled eggs in bechamel sauce (gakked eggs) will you be happy? Who thought adding more Dakka to Hive Guard was a good idea? Fire the imbecile, throw gakked eggs at him, make him eat gakked eggs.

White Dwarf is less expensive. People take offence when you ask outrageous prices for things. A gold diamond ring? Everyone knows that's going to be expensive. Sliced bread? Not going to cost you much. 3-5 pages of rules? All these extra rules should be bundled into Chapter Approved or be Campaign only.

PenitentJake wrote:
I've purchased two campaign books so far, and I do plan on getting the others; they are worth it for me as a player who owns many smaller armies and plays Crusade campaigns almost exclusively.

I don't really see any of these books having a lot of value for matched players, and I don't think they're meant to- it's by design. That's what keeps them optional.

If you play matched, and you happen to play one of the subfactions that get supplements... Maybe you might want it, but it's a real stretch. Again though, that's by design- just like GW doesn't expect you to buy dexes for armies you don't play, they really don't expect matched players to buy these.

When GW puts out GT mission packs, I know that this is not a product for me, so I don't buy it. But I also don't complain about it, and try to tell everyone who is buying it that shouldn't, or claim that it's destroying the game. Somebody somewhere wants it, otherwise it wouldn't exist, but that someone is not me, so I just don't have to worry about it. Easy.

I think there are a lot of people who assume GW expects every player to buy every product. Naturally, people who feel this way might feel overwhelmed by the number of products available. But I assure you, these books are printed in far fewer quantities than dexes, because GW does absolutely intend for them to be optional.

If you play sisters odds are you need this or you aregd gimping yourself. Which means for most this is essential

 Stormonu wrote:
GW can’t win for losing.

“Muh army hasn’t seen a release for two years, six months and three days!”

**GW releases campaign supplement with new rules, models and whatnot.**

“Now I’ve got to tote around 10,000 books and supplements to run muh army!”

I'm pretty sure 99.9% of the time what people mean is they want MODEL releases for their army, not rules supplements that will be outdated in, at most, two and a half years.

War of the Spider worked 7 months for Death Guard. At least day 1 DLC will last you a lot longer, even if it should just be included in the codex.

I think the issue is that there is DLC and DLC.

I wouldn't mind so much if the rules were interesting - i.e. a complete re-imagining of the roster so a faction plays in a completely different way.

But this "we could have thrown this in the codex but decided not to. If you want these special bonus super rules you better cough up some more money" feels like a cash grab because it is a cash grab.

It also feels stupid because why should one specific sub faction get a bunch of random bonuses over the others - but that's perhaps another story.

Why do armies of renown rules that are applicable to one campaign book legal to play against another campaign book?

Matched play should be core rules and codex only if the goal is to have more balance. Any supplemental army rules should be restricted to the campaign they were designed for.

Or people can just play a game that's actually designed for competitive play and we can shift 40k back to the beer and pretzel crowd

Tyel wrote:
I think the issue is that there is DLC and DLC.

I wouldn't mind so much if the rules were interesting - i.e. a complete re-imagining of the roster so a faction plays in a completely different way.

But this "we could have thrown this in the codex but decided not to. If you want these special bonus super rules you better cough up some more money" feels like a cash grab because it is a cash grab.

It also feels stupid because why should one specific sub faction get a bunch of random bonuses over the others - but that's perhaps another story.

Horse armour vs Shivering Isles, basically?

 vict0988 wrote:
What isn't needed is a rule that makes Tyranid monsters Disgustingly Resilient for no reason, there is no reason for it to exist. You could make a Tyranid monster army without the extra rule and there is no reason why a Tyranid monstermash needs more help than a Necron or Craftworlds monstermash list does.

I know it's not your point... but, psst. Take a look at the Carnifex datasheet sometime. Or the Harpy. Or the Tyrannocyte (I could go on much longer than this, to be clear). You think a Monolith is janky? Man, just you wait...

Non-FW Nids monsters needed a boost. I would have preferred that to come via a codex, for sure. But I'll take what I can get.

This whole issue makes me wonder if it is even worthwhile to pick up Codices that are printed in the later part of the edition cycle. I mean, at best, we're probably looking at 18 months of use for a codex that comes out after June. Then you're stuck with an out of date codex again unless your faction is lucky enough to get a slot earlier in the next cycle. Which then forces you to wonder why GW just didn't wait until the new(er) edition came out before publishing the one you just bought.

It's a can of worms with a can of worms in it. I wish GW did what Privateer Press used to do. Everyone gets their codex at the same time and then everyone gets adjustments, new rules, new models, etc. at the same time. Viola no codex creep and nobody gets left behind. Or GW could do what they did with 8th and publish all the factions in a couple of books and use Chapter approved to update all the factions at the same time. If there is something that really needs changing then they could do that via errata or FAQ.

With the new munitorum manual, it's basically a Day 1 DLC for Custodes, as half our Frogging faction is FW.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Horse armour vs Shivering Isles, basically?

Yeah, that sort of sums it up.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
This whole issue makes me wonder if it is even worthwhile to pick up Codices that are printed in the later part of the edition cycle. I mean, at best, we're probably looking at 18 months of use for a codex that comes out after June. Then you're stuck with an out of date codex again unless your faction is lucky enough to get a slot earlier in the next cycle. Which then forces you to wonder why GW just didn't wait until the new(er) edition came out before publishing the one you just bought.

But they'll tell you that your late x edition codex was designed with y edition in mind.
So you're good!

It's a can of worms with a can of worms in it. I wish GW did what Privateer Press used to do. Everyone gets their codex at the same time and then everyone gets adjustments, new rules, new models, etc. at the same time. Viola no codex creep and nobody gets left behind. Or GW could do what they did with 8th and publish all the factions in a couple of books and use Chapter approved to update all the factions at the same time. If there is something that really needs changing then they could do that via errata or FAQ.

The needs of the GW release cycle outweigh the needs of the game. Index 40k, which is what you're describing, has only been done twice in the entire history of the game. The reboot in 3rd and then again with 8th. Index 40k has its fans who like the theoretical level playing field and those who deride it for its blandness. They've never tried to take it further and have synched releases like PP. Pretty sure they never will.

I cannot believe how synched releases could be anything but popular. Sure, it'll be clear when one faction gets 5 things and another gets 0 things, but at least you wouldn't have to deal with the silly "wait and see what you get hehehe" crowd.

Necrons got no Psychic Awakening, it was a stupid and unfair project that bloated and unbalanced the game for no real benefit. At least people had to pay 1CP to unlock the benefits of one of the Vigilus Specialist Detachments. "But it made Grey Knights better!" it made a few builds OP, it did not make them balanced, adding rules does not balance the game, tweaking points balances the game.

A good reason for sub-faction locked extra rules is that GW can keep releasing them and you only ever have to bring 1 to the gaming club (the latest most OP one), so the argument of having to lug books around isn't as valid as it might seem, regardless of how many they release. Generally, they boost an underwhelming sub-faction, which is pretty cool for dedicated fans waiting for their sub-faction to shine again.

Another thing is that it is not errata so it does not void the original book, if every Dynasty in the Necron codex except for the custom one that everyone uses and two or three others gets changed with Errata because they are gak then a physical Necrons codex would no longer be a good source for rules.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
What isn't needed is a rule that makes Tyranid monsters Disgustingly Resilient for no reason, there is no reason for it to exist. You could make a Tyranid monster army without the extra rule and there is no reason why a Tyranid monstermash needs more help than a Necron or Craftworlds monstermash list does.

I know it's not your point... but, psst. Take a look at the Carnifex datasheet sometime. Or the Harpy. Or the Tyrannocyte (I could go on much longer than this, to be clear). You think a Monolith is janky? Man, just you wait...

Non-FW Nids monsters needed a boost. I would have preferred that to come via a codex, for sure. But I'll take what I can get.

Why should Carnifexes halve damage from overcharged plasma guns? Why should their only counter be neo-lasers and neo-melta? Why do Dreadnoughts and Death Guard have this silly ability? If it is not a problem for Carnifexes in a Monster Mash army of renown to have the ability then why not all Carnifexes? What synergy between Carnifexes and a bug carpet exists that would make it OP for Carnifexes in non-army of renown lists to have the ability at the cost of their chapter tactic?

I know a portion of the 40k fanbase wants Carnifexes to be elite, but I think Carnifexes should be cannon-fodder monsters. Carnifexes could still be fixed just by lowering pts.

PenitentJake wrote:
I've purchased two campaign books so far, and I do plan on getting the others; they are worth it for me as a player who owns many smaller armies and plays Crusade campaigns almost exclusively.

I don't really see any of these books having a lot of value for matched players, and I don't think they're meant to- it's by design. That's what keeps them optional.

If you play matched, and you happen to play one of the subfactions that get supplements... Maybe you might want it, but it's a real stretch. Again though, that's by design- just like GW doesn't expect you to buy dexes for armies you don't play, they really don't expect matched players to buy these.

When GW puts out GT mission packs, I know that this is not a product for me, so I don't buy it. But I also don't complain about it, and try to tell everyone who is buying it that shouldn't, or claim that it's destroying the game. Somebody somewhere wants it, otherwise it wouldn't exist, but that someone is not me, so I just don't have to worry about it. Easy.

I think there are a lot of people who assume GW expects every player to buy every product. Naturally, people who feel this way might feel overwhelmed by the number of products available. But I assure you, these books are printed in far fewer quantities than dexes, because GW does absolutely intend for them to be optional.

The problem is GW insists on mixing content for multiple game modes in these books. The reason is undoubtedly because they know having Matched and Crusade content will increase the market for each book. If GW's releases were genuinely Crusade only or Matched only that wouldn't be as big of a problem. The problem is we have narrative content, plus Armies of Renown all bundled together and people quite rightly resent paying for a page and a half of rules.

If GW is going to continue to put out little bits of rules here and there for various armies they need to make them easier for players to get their hands on them. It should be possible to buy your AoR rules digitally for a small price, for example.

Tyel wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Horse armour vs Shivering Isles, basically?

Yeah, that sort of sums it up.

Hey, I paid for and never got the lairs...

 vict0988 wrote:
I cannot believe how synched releases could be anything but popular. Sure, it'll be clear when one faction gets 5 things and another gets 0 things, but at least you wouldn't have to deal with the silly "wait and see what you get hehehe" crowd.

Sure, they'd be popular and make for a bettergame experience for most folks, but they wouldn't necessarily translate into more revenue for GW. If all armies get something at the same time players would be more satisfied with their armies and less likely to switch to the new hotness.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
I cannot believe how synched releases could be anything but popular. Sure, it'll be clear when one faction gets 5 things and another gets 0 things, but at least you wouldn't have to deal with the silly "wait and see what you get hehehe" crowd.

Sure, they'd be popular and make for a bettergame experience for most folks, but they wouldn't necessarily translate into more revenue for GW. If all armies get something at the same time players would be more satisfied with their armies and less likely to switch to the new hotness.

Less likely to leave?

tneva82 wrote:


If you play sisters odds are you need this or you aregd gimping yourself. Which means for most this is essential

Sort of?

So first, I'd say if you play sisters competitively to win, the odds are higher, because as I understand it, almost every competitive Sisters list has a detachment of BR for close combat.

But even then, it isn't a guarantee: most of the feedback I've read on what's been previewed so far has been that it doesn't buff us enough to be worth the purchase, with the best of the previewed material being the strat that's Paragon only. So if the BR detachment in question ALSO includes Paragons, odds go up again. But it likely doesn't, cuz Paragons are more suited to shooty than fighty.

True Narrative play is always going to follow the story. I'm actually looking to create 25 PL crusades for all six orders for a special project. The campaign tells the story of each Order discovering the artefact that they use in the Triumph of Saint Katherine; they have to fight a series of battles in order to discover or reclaim, or defend the artefact in question. Once each of the six have secured their artefact, then they have to fight their way across the galaxy to bring those artefacts together to form the first Triumph of Saint Katherine in the history of the Imperium.

In one sixth of those battles, the OoOML supplement may have some utility. In another sixth of those battles, the BL supplement may have some utility. In the other 4/6 of those battles, neither has utility.

Again, I'm going to have the book anyways- part of that, for me, is that I've decided this is my last edition, so I'm collecting enough resources to play 9th for the rest of my life. I haven't played through all of Charadon yet, and I haven't even started Octarius (in fact, don't own the books yet). When I do play through these campaigns though, it ain't gonna be a ten game affair that takes place over sixth months; I'm looking to play all 50 + missions in each campaign, using every setting in every WD Flashpoint. All factions start at 25PL with the goal of every faction reaching 150PL by the time the campaign ends. With the level of detail I'm looking for, each campaign would last an entire edition for most people.

That's how I'm going to survive completely ignoring edition churn for ever. In my opinion, and based only upon what I personally want out of a game, 9th will never be topped- just like in D&D, 3.5 has never and will never be topped. I know I am the minority in this, and that's fine. Other people's opinions are certainly valid- my experience of and plans for the game are far different than most people's ideas are that it only makes sense that we have different opinions. By the time most of you are starting to build your first tournament army for tenth, I'll probably be wrapping up the 50th- 75th game of Charadon, fighting one of only a handful of battles in the entire campaign arc that has actually justified the presence of Supreme Commanders from a fluff perspective after each of us has grown a Crusade from 25PL-150PL over a period of 4-5 years.

Somewhere in 10th we'll probably be ready to start Octarius.

Nachmud should carry us through some of 11th and all of 12th.

F*&^ edition churn. I'm done with it whether GW is or not. By the end of this edition, I'll have all I'm ever going to need.

Surely if you're aiming for "True Narritive" play you wouldn't be using PL at all because the narritive would dictate the forces used? It seems like you're just playing Matched with extra steps.

vict0988 wrote:
Less likely to leave?

Well, yeah. But GW doesn't ever seem very interested in player retention. They're doing what they think maximizes revenue. If they thought they would make more money with, say, an X-wing wave release model, they would have adopted it already.

PenitentJake wrote:
F*&^ edition churn. I'm done with it whether GW is or not. By the end of this edition, I'll have all I'm ever going to need.

Good luck. Seriously.

Hopping off the hamster wheel is harder than you think. Lots of people feel the same when a new edition drops. They all plan to hold fast to what they have and use the older, better, less-convoluted rulesets. And then there's a new, super cool kit that comes out, but it's designed for the new version of the game and is not immediately translatable to the older rules. So they start trying to work it into the old rules and before long they'll start talking about just switching editions like everyone else. The gravitational pull is strong. It's easier to resist once you realize, as you have, that GW has no interest in making the game better and is just driving in circles to generate sales.

Feels good to have not paid for a single rule all of eighth and ninth edition. If you're peeved at GW for nickel and diming you by releasing all these rules I assure you it is trivial to access them if you're even a little internet-savvy.

Though admittedly if you're in a shop that requires you to have a physical copy or the app, or you're playing at a tournament you're a little bit more gak out of luck, which is unfortunate.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Surely if you're aiming for "True Narritive" play you wouldn't be using PL at all because the narritive would dictate the forces used? It seems like you're just playing Matched with extra steps.

This is a pretty solid point. The reason I do still use PL is that the progression system interacts with it. PL is far less restrictive than points, because load out isn't a factor, so it isn't a bad compromise, but your point does stand.

I use as many mechanics of the system as I can, because even among my open minded group of players, the more you houserule, the more buy in you need.

 Arschbombe wrote:

vict0988 wrote:
Less likely to leave?

Well, yeah. But GW doesn't ever seem very interested in player retention. They're doing what they think maximizes revenue. If they thought they would make more money with, say, an X-wing wave release model, they would have adopted it already.

Player retention does generate revenue. If you dropped every player of 9th who has played in a previous edition, GW's revenue would be cut in half at least. This is why they released an Ambull, a Zoat and Rogue Traders in 8th and why all of them are still playable in 9th. It's why they haven't dumped firstborn and in fact gave them a second wound to keep them relevant. Some of the folks who came back for 8th and got dragged kicking and screaming into 9th have been playing since Rogue Trader- I'm one of them.

GW knows this. Their strategy targets both new players and legacy players at the same time. In order to do so, they walk a fine line because what satisfies one group will alienate the other if it's taken too far. This why the game doesn't seem to go as far as some people in each group want it to go.

 Arschbombe wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
F*&^ edition churn. I'm done with it whether GW is or not. By the end of this edition, I'll have all I'm ever going to need.

Good luck. Seriously.

Hopping off the hamster wheel is harder than you think. Lots of people feel the same when a new edition drops. They all plan to hold fast to what they have and use the older, better, less-convoluted rulesets. And then there's a new, super cool kit that comes out, but it's designed for the new version of the game and is not immediately translatable to the older rules. So they start trying to work it into the old rules and before long they'll start talking about just switching editions like everyone else. The gravitational pull is strong. It's easier to resist once you realize, as you have, that GW has no interest in making the game better and is just driving in circles to generate sales.

I am aware of how hard it's going to be- the strategy is exactly as you describe it. I think about what 9th would have been like for me if I had made my stand with 8th:

I love the 9th Drukhari dex, but other than that, nothing Drukhari... so it wouldn't have pulled me.
I love the new Sisters wave, but I could have been content without it... so it wouldn't have pulled me.
I really like the new Deathwatch Kill Teams, but I could have been fine without them.
I'm excited that SoS are useable without boys, but that's not a big enough draw either.
Krieg are nice, and so were Gaunts Ghosts... but still not enough (yet... there's still more in store for guard)
But then they hit me with CWE- and that might have been the thing.
Chaos would have a chance too depending on what we get.

I feel like if they do enough justice to CWE and Guard, I might at least have the fortitude to sit out 11th.

Barring a full range of Exodites, or a fully workable Imperial Agents dex I'm not sure how much else I actually need. I'd love a plastic Kharon Pattern Acquisitor for SoS, but as much as I love it, it isn't going to make me buy a 10th BRB and rebuy all the dexes for the seven armies I collect.

You're right that it's a challenge, but by the end of this edition, I think every army will be good enough that a few new models for one army or another aren't gonna do it.

As a Sisters player I have zero interest in this supplement. I would love for Necrons to get more love or some faction that has yet to see some love.