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I’d say they wouldn’t even be worth it at 6, best thing to come from that would be stuff like burna boyz goin down more cause of the chassis gettin cheaper.

I don't think Boyz should be 7, let alone 6 points - but I do think Kroot are incredibly overpushed.

There are I think two takes. The first is just why they are good generally in a competitive setting.

These are excellent utilitarian obsec units at 60 points. They are very fast with the free move and 7" movement which means they can get where you want them to be. They have the offensive power to bully comparable units - or situationally trade up. At just 60 points they don't offer great trades for your opponent.

If Ork players really want to feel sad forget Boyz and compare a 60 point Kroot squad to a 50 point grot squad. The idea went that grots had to be kind of expensive because of their potential game utility despite being terrible at doing damage. Well apparently you can have both.

The second is a meme spam build rooted in the amount of buffs Kroot can get. Take Dal'yth and Mont'ka, a couple of warlord traits some 25 point (...) shapers and some marker lights.

Oh look, my 6 point kroot now hit on 3s (okay one unit per markerlight, but still), rerolling 1s, wound on whatever, rerolling 1s, at AP-1. Then charge in, 2 attacks hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on whatever, at AP-1.

At the Intercessor standard, a 60 point unit does the following:

20*2/3*7/6*1/2*7/6*1/2=4.5 wounds. Or 45 points from a 60 point unit (and I guess the relatively cheap support).
Then I charge (potentially 3d6 from WL trait, pick the highest).
20*2/3*7/6*1/2*1/2=3.88 further wounds - 38 points from a 60 point unit and a shaper. Add both together for 83 points, or a 138% return. Which is just dumb.

Therefore, if you lined up a whole army of Intercessors on your deployment line, and I had a whole army of Kroot on mine, I've got an incredibly high chance to just table you in my first turn.

Am I reaching? I don't think so. I'm not pushing the relic for instance - or the heroic intervention stratagem (which really ups the value of the unit in the top part). Or say an Ethereal casting power of the tides for +1 to wound (since its a bit pricy and so I feel you'd have to factor it into costs in the way a 25 point buffbot isn't). Take the markerlight out if you want - and I'll do 56% return at shooting rather than 75%. Its still around 120% points return.

Mass undercosted S4 AP-1 attacks isn't the be all and end all of 40k. But you can bring 100 kroot and say 2 shapers and that's just 650 points. From an initial take Dal'yth isn't the most desirable Sept but that's really the only sacrifice you are making. I'm not even sure Kroot need it - but it is a huge buff to their shooting. Helps out Vespid out a bit too - although again its perhaps less obvious they need the help (how are these guys toting S5 AP-3 2 damage guns just 12 points?).

Famous Dakka exaggeration perhaps - but I don't see how this book isn't completely busted in a casual setting and with these sorts of numbers should appear in the competitive space. I feel Tau will get Buggie/Ad Mech-esque turn 1 tablings, that can only be constrained with massive amounts of LOS and movement blocking terrain (when everything that wants to shoot gets a free advance with Mont'ka its hardly slow to cover the table). Those numbers above are average - if you get lucky, they become even more absurd.

I am interested in seeing the comparison with 7ppm Daemonettes for both units. I personally believe the Daemonettes are actually better than both but are still not great.

I'm pretty sure we'll see Kroot go up to 7 PPM. Though I'm also hoping we see Boys go down to 8 PPM.

Breton wrote:

I'd rather have the boys. Vs "Bolters" - AKA the mostly-standard S4 line unit gun - the boys are wounded on 5's, while the Kroot on 3's. Also the earlier the "defensive" bonus comes the better it is. Being hit 1/3 less often is better than being wounded 1/3 less often is better than making 1/3 more saves. Misses fail 100% of wound rolls and make 100% of their saves. So a 16% boost to saves, and then only in cover, isn't nearly as good as 33% more wound failures.

It just gets worse when you look at a lot of the anit-"horde" ranged weapons. Most of them are S4-S5 - Heavy Bolters, Hurricane Bolters, Regular Onlsaught, etc - but then you get into the new sweetspot. S6/S7 Autocannons, Heavy Onslaught, Assault Cannons, Kheres Assault Cannons and the like will wound Kroot on 2's and Orks on 3's.

Lets assume you're going up against Marines (since its 1: the most popular-ish army, and 2: the one I know) How many of those armies have Dreads right now? We just hit a ton of Assault or (Assorted) Onslaught cannons. How about Boltstorm Aggressors with a ton of S4 -0? Intercessors with S4 -1? Speeders (especially the HB/AC Tornados gathering dust in too many storage cases), The Hailstrikes that just went down in price, OGC ATV's, Stormtalons or Stormhawks. I doubt we'll see a lot Landraiders or Repulsors because even with good guns they're bad points. I suppose there's also an outside shot of seeing some Gladiator Reapers or Predator Anhilators (with Chronus potential).

I'm not saying we won't see a Meta shift, but I will guess any Meta Shift we would see is more likely to be small and "sidegrade" than "upgrade". By which I mean most of the units you see hit the table will be the same or were already coming from points drops. They'll just either be better, or get a slightly different loadout. Some will be new, I doubt you've seen many Tornadoes lately, but people were already complaining about Dreads, now you just may see them more with Heavy Onslaught or old schools with AssCans.

Your math isn't correct. Lets assume 100 shots at S4 BS3 against two different targets, one has -1 to hit and one is T5 so its -1 to wound.

Unit 1 has -1 to hit so its 50 hits, 25 wounds
Unit 2 has T5 so its 66.6 hits, 22.2 wounds.

Unit 1 had the -1 to hit but still took more wounds. This is because its completely subjective to what the level of loss is. Going from BS3 to BS 4 is only a 25% drop in hits, going from wounding on 4s to wounding on 5s is a 33% drop in wounds.

Same math except the shooting unit is BS4.

Unit 1 has -1 to hit, so its 33.3 hits, 16.65 wounds.
Unit 2 has T5 so its 50 hits, 16.66 wounds

See how the math leveled out? So in the case of Kroot vs Boyz we can do 60 hits (not shots) at S4.
60 hits is 40 wounds and in cover because kroot have a 4+ save thats 20dmg.
60 hits is 20 wounds and in cover Orkz have a 5+ save thats 13.3dmg

Kroot lost 120pts of Models, Orkz lost 119.7 or basically the same amount. So durability wise, even with +2 toughness over kroot, they are essentially the same. And against S3 weapons the kroot are significantly better (those are rarer) and against S5 weapons. The split point is S6-9 weapons again favor the orkz, but only by the same amount as S4 does, in other words it makes kroot and orkz the same level of durable.

Also, those kroot I believe are still on smaller bases which make them easier to position and more likely to be in cover, especially with their significant increase in speed compared to boys.

Spoletta wrote:
I think that everyone here is missing one huge detail about this comparison.

Kroots don't get Sept bonuses.
Boyz do.

You don't compare a Kroot to a Boy.
You compare a Kroot to a Goff Boy.

Correct. The issue is that you don't take boyz by themselves because they are too slow and vulnerable to enemy fire to make it to the enemy lines. So in reality its 90pts of boyz +70pts of Trukk. And if you make them trukk boyz (as I do for instance) they lose their goff kulture which is worth it believe it or not...but just barely.

Jarms48 wrote:
I'm pretty sure we'll see Kroot go up to 7 PPM. Though I'm also hoping we see Boys go down to 8 PPM.

I actually think kroot are fine at 6ppm. I think they fulfill their purpose wonderfully at this price point. I don't think simply dropping boyz to 8 would do anything at all though. Kroot function because they are incredibly fast. 7' pre-game move and 7' movement means they are almost completely across an 18' no mans land turn 1. They are absolutely capable of a turn 1 assault, and more importantly, they serve the same purpose now as 12ppm Kommandos in mid field objective capping. I think Kommandos at 12 is a bit too pricey, but 6ppm kroot hiding in cover on an objective for 60pts with a 4+ save is pretty damn nice

Dudeface wrote:
I feel you missed books Semper, you used to put a "unit in new codex makes orks bad" thread for most releases, I feel you skipped a few.

Not at all dudeface. Kroot don't make "orkz bad" or specifically ork boyz. GW did that with their rules writing I have no desire to make kroot worse than boyz. I'd love GW to realize that kroot work because they serve a purpose based on their special rules and speed and find a way to have boyz fulfill a similar role. I think "Trukk Boyz" was a really good solution for that. I just wish they could keep their kulture and not be limited to 1 per detachment.

Boyz are lacking a delivery mechanism. Stats wise and points wise they are decent enough for a troop unit, but since they need to footslog they don't see much play.
Right now, without a decent delivery mechanism they could be dropped to 8ppm and they wouldn't break the game for sure.

SemperMortis wrote:

I actually think kroot are fine at 6ppm. I think they fulfill their purpose wonderfully at this price point. I don't think simply dropping boyz to 8 would do anything at all though. Kroot function because they are incredibly fast. 7' pre-game move and 7' movement means they are almost completely across an 18' no mans land turn 1. They are absolutely capable of a turn 1 assault, and more importantly, they serve the same purpose now as 12ppm Kommandos in mid field objective capping. I think Kommandos at 12 is a bit too pricey, but 6ppm kroot hiding in cover on an objective for 60pts with a 4+ save is pretty damn nice

Okay. Now compare them to Gretchin, Cultists, and Conscripts. All are 1 point less and infinitely worse. Kroot have a better statline, better weapons, and better abilities. We know those 3 models aren't going down in points because of the 5 point floor, so that means there's only one way for Kroot to go.

 Aenar wrote:
Boyz are lacking a delivery mechanism. Stats wise and points wise they are decent enough for a troop unit, but since they need to footslog they don't see much play.
Right now, without a decent delivery mechanism they could be dropped to 8ppm and they wouldn't break the game for sure.

The issue is honestly them losing their special rules (and kinda warboss change). Cause space marines lost their charge reroll it meant the filthy lower classes had to as well, and we couldn’t have orks being fearless (like they’ve been since 3rd en masse). Combine this with a really weird nerf to weirdboyz and big meks abilities that have similarly been there since the start, and now we have this weird scenario where boyz have lost everything that made them boyz. They’re not cheap, or even durable for the points. They don’t do bonkers damage for their relative slow speed for a melee unit, and they can’t be buffed.
Best change for boyz is just rip the boyz datasheet straight from 8th alongside our warbosses and other hq’s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you wanted 9th boyz plain though, 6 points is pretty reasonable for the gak I’ve seen done with pox walkers.

In General: A lot of units/armies are losing their delivery systems. Deepstrike, Infiltrate, Scout and outflank are becoming less common. Transports are getting (even) less desirable/effective. The teleportation power Imperials used to get is now (potentially) Ravenguard only, and still has the not-within 9" thing.

Again that was in general, there are exceptions to the "rule" like The Sanguinor getting to deep strike into engagement range (which still requires another unit having already done so) or the Harlequinn games, but in general it feels like they're working very hard to prevent surprise and/or early charges.

Look at SM transports: At one point Rhinos were like 35 points. Now they're triple that. Impulsors have a max capacity of 6. Repulsors are 10, but they're an arm and a leg plus they're so very very bad. Drop Pods are still one-and-done points-based upcharges for Deepstrike. I think Catalyst used to be extra movement, but now its damage control. Have you seen Fleet recently?

It really doesn't matter at all what other armies do when boyz are simply a dysfunctional unit and there is are no alternative troops to use instead.

Jarms48 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

I actually think kroot are fine at 6ppm. I think they fulfill their purpose wonderfully at this price point. I don't think simply dropping boyz to 8 would do anything at all though. Kroot function because they are incredibly fast. 7' pre-game move and 7' movement means they are almost completely across an 18' no mans land turn 1. They are absolutely capable of a turn 1 assault, and more importantly, they serve the same purpose now as 12ppm Kommandos in mid field objective capping. I think Kommandos at 12 is a bit too pricey, but 6ppm kroot hiding in cover on an objective for 60pts with a 4+ save is pretty damn nice

Okay. Now compare them to Gretchin, Cultists, and Conscripts. All are 1 point less and infinitely worse. Kroot have a better statline, better weapons, and better abilities. We know those 3 models aren't going down in points because of the 5 point floor, so that means there's only one way for Kroot to go.

This, but apply upwards to the top - they claimed armies were shrinking in 9th, time to make good on that promise/threat and actually make that required granularity.

Breton wrote:
In General: A lot of units/armies are losing their delivery systems. Deepstrike, Infiltrate, Scout and outflank are becoming less common. Transports are getting (even) less desirable/effective. The teleportation power Imperials used to get is now (potentially) Ravenguard only, and still has the not-within 9" thing.

Again that was in general, there are exceptions to the "rule" like The Sanguinor getting to deep strike into engagement range (which still requires another unit having already done so) or the Harlequinn games, but in general it feels like they're working very hard to prevent surprise and/or early charges.

Look at SM transports: At one point Rhinos were like 35 points. Now they're triple that. Impulsors have a max capacity of 6. Repulsors are 10, but they're an arm and a leg plus they're so very very bad. Drop Pods are still one-and-done points-based upcharges for Deepstrike. I think Catalyst used to be extra movement, but now its damage control. Have you seen Fleet recently?

....Your entire premise of delivery system is false with just 1 word, Drukhari.

Rhinos were 35, and Trukkz were 30. Everything went up dramatically in 8th because as was mentioned already, they were trying to make the game somewhat smaller sized. The problem is that I think that is why boyz suck so bad right now. In 8th they were arguably the biggest "Horde" offender army. Kroot meanwhile saw little to no game play so they got a nice hefty buff which I think they honestly deserved. I Just would like boyz to at least function in a useful manner in my army as opposed to being useless.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I’d say they wouldn’t even be worth it at 6, best thing to come from that would be stuff like burna boyz goin down more cause of the chassis gettin cheaper.

And this is why we can't have community led balancing.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I’d say they wouldn’t even be worth it at 6, best thing to come from that would be stuff like burna boyz goin down more cause of the chassis gettin cheaper.

And this is why we can't have community led balancing.

I’m not saying they couldn’t be good at 6, just that they wouldn’t be worth it. Internal balance vs external really.

Play some games where you get 270~ boyz and some characters and get back to us. I think you'd find it kind of busted.

SemperMortis wrote:

Rhinos were 35, and Trukkz were 30. Everything went up dramatically in 8th because as was mentioned already, they were trying to make the game somewhat smaller sized. The problem is that I think that is why boyz suck so bad right now. In 8th they were arguably the biggest "Horde" offender army. Kroot meanwhile saw little to no game play so they got a nice hefty buff which I think they honestly deserved. I Just would like boyz to at least function in a useful manner in my army as opposed to being useless.

Dedicated Transports definitely need some kind of drop. I was thinking something like:

Orks:
- Trukks: 60 points. It just needs to be cheaper. I'd also remove the grabbin’ klaw and wreckin’ ball restriction of being limited to only 1 attack. 1 attack hitting on 5's is so bad. If you're going to pay for the upgrade, make it an actual melee upgrade. This would also affect things like the Gunwagon and Battlewagon for example, but those have access to the Deff rolla anyway which is way better.

Imperial Guard:
- Chimera: 75 points. Includes hull heavy bolter/heavy flamer. I would reduce cost of turret upgrade by 5 points, to represent swapping the multi-laser. IE: Turret heavy bolter or heavy flamer would be a 5 point upgrade.
- Taurox: 75 points. It's bad, especially for 90 points currently, it's firepower is no better than a Chimera with 2 heavy bolters.
- Taurox Prime: 110 points. It's good but needs some tweaks to make all of its weapon options more viable. So we drop the base cost to make the Taurox battle cannon a bit cheap then we increase the gatling cannon upgrade to 10 points (so still 120 points) and reduce the missile launcher upgrade to 10 points.
- Hades Breaching Drill: 75 points.
- Trojan Support Vehicle: 75 points.

GSC:
- Goliath Truck: 75 points. I'm not sure what the new datasheet looks like, but the old one is what I would consider a balanced transport.

Space Marines:
- Rhino: 75 points. Much less firepower but very similar statlines, you also have to factor in its cargo which is vastly superior. This would also apply to all other factions that use Rhinos.
- Razorback: 90 points. It's just far too expensive for what it does. This would at least make it viable. I would also reduce the twin assault cannon upgrade to 10 points, then you can either get that or a twin lascannon Razorback for 100 points.
- Impulsor: 100 points. I'd also reduce the cost of the bellicatus missile array to 10 points, it's just a missile launcher with a bad AA option.

Ad-Mech:
Skorpius Dunerider: 90 points. No-one uses it. Also, either change its transport rule to include Secutarii, or give Secutarii the <Forge World> keyword they kinda need the buff anyway.

Necrons:
- Ghost Ark: 135 points. It's just too expensive for what it does.

SemperMortis wrote:

Breton wrote:
In General: A lot of units/armies are losing their delivery systems. Deepstrike, Infiltrate, Scout and outflank are becoming less common. Transports are getting (even) less desirable/effective. The teleportation power Imperials used to get is now (potentially) Ravenguard only, and still has the not-within 9" thing.

Again that was in general, there are exceptions to the "rule" like The Sanguinor getting to deep strike into engagement range (which still requires another unit having already done so) or the Harlequinn games, but in general it feels like they're working very hard to prevent surprise and/or early charges.

Look at SM transports: At one point Rhinos were like 35 points. Now they're triple that. Impulsors have a max capacity of 6. Repulsors are 10, but they're an arm and a leg plus they're so very very bad. Drop Pods are still one-and-done points-based upcharges for Deepstrike. I think Catalyst used to be extra movement, but now its damage control. Have you seen Fleet recently?

....Your entire premise of delivery system is false with just 1 word, Drukhari.

Alexa what does "The exception that proves the rule" mean? Also let me add some code to the quote for emphasis. How many armies are there? What percentage of that is Drukhari?

Rhinos were 35, and Trukkz were 30. Everything went up dramatically in 8th because as was mentioned already, they were trying to make the game somewhat smaller sized. The problem is that I think that is why boyz suck so bad right now. In 8th they were arguably the biggest "Horde" offender army. Kroot meanwhile saw little to no game play so they got a nice hefty buff which I think they honestly deserved. I Just would like boyz to at least function in a useful manner in my army as opposed to being useless.

Probably also playtesting for the new objective based stuff showed how often 30ish point transports could swing games because they weren't important enough to shoot at, then would have been and changed the game in ways they didn't want.

What's been left out of this discussion is the cold hard fact that Kroot look better than ork boyz.

Tyel wrote:
Play some games where you get 270~ boyz and some characters and get back to us. I think you'd find it kind of busted.

270 boyz atm is 2,430. At 6ppm that would be 1620, and would require 9 MAX mobz of boyz.

ready for a demonstration for how ridiculously bad Ork boyz are atm? Using Richard Sieglers LVO winning list which is ABSOLUTELY not built in the slightest to deal with non-existent hordes, this is how it would work against 270 boyz.

Turn 1, he split fires his 2 blobs of Rangers into 3 units of boyz who are in range. Without external buffs at all thats 76 shots, 50.6 hits, and 8 dead boyz per mob. Those 3 mobz are down to 22, all fail morale, down to 21, roll and lose 3.5 more each. So rangers alone just killed upwards of 33 boyz for a total of 198pts dead. That is a 45% return on investment turn 1 just from those guys.

The Vanguards go after a unit as well, thats 30 shots, 20 hits, (3 auto-wounds) and 8.6 wounds for 7 dead boyz. Fail morale, down to 22, lose another 3.66 to attrition, likely down to 18 so a 110pts of Vanguard just killed 72pts of Boyz turn 1.

Infiltrators plunk 15 shots, 10 hits, 3.33 wounds and 2.7 casualties, and join 3 units of Laschickens for 6 shots, 4 hits, 2.6 wounds and 2.6 more dead boyz, so -6, fail leadership, down to 23, lose another 4 to attrition.

The Disintegrators each get 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 3 dead boyz with their cannons, Their Stubbers do 4 shots, 2.6 hits, 0.88 wounds for 0.75 dead boyz, the Disruptor does 6 shots, 4 hits, 2.6 wounds for 2.6 more dead boyz. So each kill 6, fail morale, 7 and 4 more to attrition. for a total of 11 dead. and the pair works out to 22 more dead.

So Turn 1, without buffs, without strats, without doctrinas, without forgeworld (Army of Renown) buffs Sieglers list would hit 7 out of the 9 mobz of boyz and inflict a grand total of: 79 casualties. And that isn't even using his Rust-stalkers which make up about 25% of his list So this un-optimized list just plunked 474pts of boyz off the table turn 1 without using anything except their raw, un-upgraded stat sheets. To put it another way, his list, without using CC kills 1/3rd of your boyz turn 1. Those boyz have to move 5, advance D6 and hope for a 10+ inch charge to even get to their enemies lines turn 1 and inflict any return dmg.

If siegler uses his Ruststalkers btw, which have a better than average chance to get into CC turn 1, those guys murder. He has 3 units, 1 of 10 and 2 of 8.

The unit of 10 AVERAGES 31 attacks, 20.3 hits, 10.15 wounds (1.66 mortals) and 11-12 dead Orkz
The units of 8 average 25 attacks, 16.6 hits, 8.3 wounds (1.3 mortals) and 9-10 dead boyz.

That means each unit, unbuffed, will MAUL a unit of boyz. The 3 units alone on the low end will inflict 29 casualties along with 3 more from Morale and 10 more from attrition, grand total of 43 out of 90 dead in 1 turn of CC.

Boyz are just bad atm and need something to help them along because even at 6ppm they will get mauled to death by un-optimized lists.

Breton wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Breton wrote:
In General: A lot of units/armies are losing their delivery systems. Deepstrike, Infiltrate, Scout and outflank are becoming less common. Transports are getting (even) less desirable/effective. The teleportation power Imperials used to get is now (potentially) Ravenguard only, and still has the not-within 9" thing.

Again that was in general, there are exceptions to the "rule" like The Sanguinor getting to deep strike into engagement range (which still requires another unit having already done so) or the Harlequinn games, but in general it feels like they're working very hard to prevent surprise and/or early charges.

Look at SM transports: At one point Rhinos were like 35 points. Now they're triple that. Impulsors have a max capacity of 6. Repulsors are 10, but they're an arm and a leg plus they're so very very bad. Drop Pods are still one-and-done points-based upcharges for Deepstrike. I think Catalyst used to be extra movement, but now its damage control. Have you seen Fleet recently?

....Your entire premise of delivery system is false with just 1 word, Drukhari.

Alexa what does "The exception that proves the rule" mean? Also let me add some code to the quote for emphasis. How many armies are there? What percentage of that is Drukhari?

Probably also playtesting for the new objective based stuff showed how often 30ish point transports could swing games because they weren't important enough to shoot at, then would have been and changed the game in ways they didn't want.

Drukhari use transports incredibly heavily, i'll bet you Eldar will bring theres in as well, as will Harlies. SoB use rhinos pretty heavily. GSC at LVO brought goliaths, top Chaos list brought that ridiculous Dreadclaw Drop Pod and a terrax Transports are appearing somewhat regularly.

I'll readily agree with you though that 30pt trukks would dominate the meta due to sheer numbers/durability even though they can't inflict any real return dmg. But buffing them to at least be useful would be nice realistically what is a trukk right now? Its a relatively durable transport of 12 models. It sucks in CC, and its only ranged option is a required Big Shoota which is 3 shots at S5 or 5 shots in half range...but its BS5 so you aren't going to hit often and it lacks AP or 2D so it mostly bounces off things. To speed up games I routinely ignore their shooting and CC abilities. Give them some kind of CC ability thats worthwhile, make them faster, give them a ranged threat. Do something! LOL

What's "ridiculous" about Dreadclaws?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:


I’m not saying they couldn’t be good at 6, just that they wouldn’t be worth it. Internal balance vs external really.

60 points for a 10 man squad of T5 dudes sounds really solid to me. Use them for secondaries.

Transports like trukks and rhinos are much better now, they are more expensive but they don't die to a single heavy bolter/ass cannon shot. Their problem is they lack precious cargo to deliver while in older editions they had that purpose. They are much more resilient now and might worth their points cost if only they had units that benefit for a transport.

I wish I had 70 points trukks with T6 10W and 4+ in 3rd-7th editions.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
What's "ridiculous" about Dreadclaws?

Their looks more than anything

Semper what happens if I go first, give most of those boys a 5++/6+++, and I get lucky and pass 3-4 morale tests?

I guess you'll say that's not fair - but I'm facing Siegler, I'm going to need some luck.

Tyel wrote:
Semper what happens if I go first, give most of those boys a 5++/6+++, and I get lucky and pass 3-4 morale tests?

I guess you'll say that's not fair - but I'm facing Siegler, I'm going to need some luck.

270 boyz would certainly be a gatekeeper list, but that analysis is ham fisted. You could create a strong list with 6 point boyz especially using reserves, da jump, and tellyporta at the very least.

SemperMortis wrote:

Breton wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Breton wrote:
In General: A lot of units/armies are losing their delivery systems. Deepstrike, Infiltrate, Scout and outflank are becoming less common. Transports are getting (even) less desirable/effective. The teleportation power Imperials used to get is now (potentially) Ravenguard only, and still has the not-within 9" thing.

Again that was in general, there are exceptions to the "rule" like The Sanguinor getting to deep strike into engagement range (which still requires another unit having already done so) or the Harlequinn games, but in general it feels like they're working very hard to prevent surprise and/or early charges.

Look at SM transports: At one point Rhinos were like 35 points. Now they're triple that. Impulsors have a max capacity of 6. Repulsors are 10, but they're an arm and a leg plus they're so very very bad. Drop Pods are still one-and-done points-based upcharges for Deepstrike. I think Catalyst used to be extra movement, but now its damage control. Have you seen Fleet recently?

....Your entire premise of delivery system is false with just 1 word, Drukhari.

Alexa what does "The exception that proves the rule" mean? Also let me add some code to the quote for emphasis. How many armies are there? What percentage of that is Drukhari?

Probably also playtesting for the new objective based stuff showed how often 30ish point transports could swing games because they weren't important enough to shoot at, then would have been and changed the game in ways they didn't want.

Drukhari use transports incredibly heavily, i'll bet you Eldar will bring theres in as well, as will Harlies. SoB use rhinos pretty heavily. GSC at LVO brought goliaths, top Chaos list brought that ridiculous Dreadclaw Drop Pod and a terrax Transports are appearing somewhat regularly.

I'll readily agree with you though that 30pt trukks would dominate the meta due to sheer numbers/durability even though they can't inflict any real return dmg. But buffing them to at least be useful would be nice realistically what is a trukk right now? Its a relatively durable transport of 12 models. It sucks in CC, and its only ranged option is a required Big Shoota which is 3 shots at S5 or 5 shots in half range...but its BS5 so you aren't going to hit often and it lacks AP or 2D so it mostly bounces off things. To speed up games I routinely ignore their shooting and CC abilities. Give them some kind of CC ability thats worthwhile, make them faster, give them a ranged threat. Do something! LOL

Transports are getting (even) less desirable/effective

realistically what is a trukk right now?

Remember when you could charge from Open-Topped or Assault Vehicles same turn after moving? That 9" bubble is pretty hard and fast when it comes to any delivery system. Not within 9, which means 3 of 11, or about a 1 in 4 chance of a successful charge after disembarking. How much better would a trukk be if you could drive up 3" away, disembark and charge all on the same turn?


Are Goliaths (the Dedicated Transport or the Heavy Support? The Rockgrinder is unimpressive, the Dedicated Transport is even better and basically slot free) being taken as cheap gun platforms or as transports? Because they look like slightly faster slightly more durable slightly less shooty significantly cheaper Firestrike Turret, that happens to also have transport capacity. I'd think about taking Taurox as gun platforms and Goliaths are pretty much the same thing but 25% off. Now the Wave Serpents, Transport first, or Gun Platform first? The Terax Termite with a 12" Heavy 5 Melta T8 14W? for roughly 200 points (Fudging exact points for copyright reasons)? Compare that to a Storm Speeder Hammerstrike - for 30ish points it gets to deep strike, add 2T, 4W, and the mother of all Chainfists. AND Transport Capacity. Take the Drop Pod Bomb. How many points are 5 Sternguard with melta and a drop pod (18 W half T4 half T6?) Roughly 200 points? What was in the Rhinos? Dominions with Meltas? Another riff on the Drop Pod Alpha Strike? As for the Dreadclaw, was he playing something that could fall back and charge on the same turn? It also has enough punch to be (taken empty) more than a dedicated transport between mortals and fist attacks.

Even if Sisters are using Rhinos en masse for their line troops (not a horrible idea given their makeup - T3 1W gunline with all their best close combat coming from Power Sword Jump Packs) I'm guessing that's still only 2 taking (Dedicated) transports for transports first. For most armies the Transport has been relegated to the Alpha Bomb Drop Pod schtick. And its not worth it. The ability to drive up and dump a Ginsu unit onto the other guy's unit is mostly gone, and especially in the current system to assault your way onto objectives - that's what people would want a transport for. Today you have to drive up. (Usually)Wait a turn. Drop them off, then chase after the target unit. Assuming they didn't pulp your unit during the couple turns they could have blown up your transport, or the turn you sat there twiddling your thumbs.

The forced pause is most of the Transport Killer for most of those armies. Yeah an assault ramp/vehicle/open-topped disembark and charge rule isn't going to save Land Raiders or Repulsors, but I bet you'd see more Bladeguard in Impulsors, How many priests in Dunestalkers? Hormugants in a Tyrranocyte? How about Bullgryns in a Chimera? That one is a no-brainer - the Bullgryns get to shoot (Lasgun arrays) while moving up to charge range and still swap to the maul instead of the wristband

I don't know what I'd do with Ghost Arcs other than allowing some sort of melee unit to ride in them. Either giving Necron Warriors a melee build, or create a new Troop choice like Assault Intercessors. Maybe allow Flayed Ones. I don't know.

There's 20 results from all factions for Dedicated Transports on the webpage. One of those results is an upgrade sprue, one is the Land Speeder Tempest that won't see play unless/until scouts do (and they won't). That leaves 18. Of which 1-2 see use as Transports, and 1-3 might see use as a Gun Platform with transport capability for a total of four. It gets worse when you start adding in things that can transport but take up a "real" slot.

To bring it back full circle, delivery systems do appear to be slowly phasing out. Most armies do not use their Transports - and those that do usually do not use them primarily as transports.

The biggest change would be disembarking after moving. Right now, transports offer you almost no mobility advantage (presumably what they would offer). You can run as far as a transport can carry you and still participate in the game.

Transports offer durability, but at a cost - and durability alone in 40k isn't very useful (as pointed out multiple times in multiple threads).

The table is smaller. Allowing disembark and charge universally from open-topped would be absolutely brutal.

Transports give protection, mobility, and extensive redeploy. An empty transport is a valuable tool. The movement you get from move, advance, embark, move, advance, and then on the next turn 3" disembark, move, and advance is quite considerable. For those keeping track at home that's going to be between 35 and 40 inches depending on the units -- plus the width of the transport if you embark and disembark on different sides.

People have to stop playing like the game is just "beep beep, push it forward!".

Tyel wrote:
Semper what happens if I go first, give most of those boys a 5++/6+++, and I get lucky and pass 3-4 morale tests?

I guess you'll say that's not fair - but I'm facing Siegler, I'm going to need some luck.

A 5++ is a once a game buff from a Big Mek with a KFF, and after using it, it explodes rendering it useless for the rest of the game, so your 85pt Big Mek just became a slightly better Nob. It does cover a wide swathe but nowhere near 270 boyz unless you conga line all of them, which if you do the game is basically already over. And the 6+++...not really worth it. A Painboy is 70pts, in order for him to make back his points cost he needs to save 12 boyz. Thats 12 x 6 or 72 wounds. So in order for him to make his points back you need to roll 12 6s, and if that happens your units are likely already screwed because it only has a range of ... 3' Good luck stacking more than 2-3 units near a 3' bubble.

As far as Morale tests, again, in the example I gave you would need to pass them on a roll of a 1. At absolute best you can expect 1 successful Morale test, 2 would be rare and 3 would be ridiculously lucky. If you pass 4? GG the dice gods favor you this game and you likely win by killing his Warlord with a lucky round of shooting from your pistols.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


270 boyz would certainly be a gatekeeper list, but that analysis is ham fisted. You could create a strong list with 6 point boyz especially using reserves, da jump, and tellyporta at the very least.

Not really though. Da Jump is unreliable now that Weirdboy doesn't benefit from being near boyz, its a single mob of boyz a turn and once they arrive they need a 9' charge with no way of really buffing that reliably (like we used to with Evil Suns) Your chance of rolling 9+ with a reroll is less than 50%, and if you fail your charge, your boyz are in double tap range of everyone. Same thing with Tellyporta strike except the cost is now CP and rather expensive. You are still left with a sub 50% chance to successfully charge, and any mobz that don't are effectively dead next turn.

The biggest problem with boyz right now is that they are slow, they aren't all that deadly and they have little to no support from the rest of the codex. The Painboy and KFF Big Mek (not popping for a 5++) only increase the durability of boyz from taking 3.6 Bolter Hits to kill to 4.32 bolter hits to kill. Thats only a durability increase of 16.66%. Even against -1AP its not a huge increase, goes from 3 Bolter hits to 4.32, a Not exactly worth the 155pts (minimum) it costs to get those buffs.

On the other hand, Kroot Carnivores are incredibly fast by comparison. 14' movement without advancing compared to boyz 5. They are basically as durable point for point, and while not great at either ranged or CC, they do offer something boyz can't. A ranged threat to hang out on objectives, and enough oomph in CC to keep smaller units and less CC oriented units off the objective. Boyz can do 1 but not the other.

But to finish off my point about 270 boyz. If that became a meta list and players like siegler took even 200pts of other stuff and put it towards anti-horde....it would be GG for that list. In my opinion there isn't a points value where boyz become good vs just spammed because they are cheap wounds. In this regard, boyz are a lot like trukkz. Too over priced for what little they do, but if you dropped them low enough they would be taken for the sheer durability per wound offered.

I dunno man.

You don't have to jump boyz into charges. You jump into cover / obscuring for a turn 2 advance and charge with Waaagh
Trukks and BWs will put pressure on and keep units safer
'Nauts can TP in alongside 30 mans with KFF and pickup a 3D6 charge with the ability to reroll only one dice and swipe on 2s

The tl;dr of the multiple threads about orks/boyz now is that boyz aren't going to get close to being used this edition without needing a total rewrite, might as well let it slide for now rather than having a new thread about it.