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Dudeface wrote: The tl;dr of the multiple threads about orks/boyz now is that boyz aren't going to get close to being used this edition without needing a total rewrite, might as well let it slide for now rather than having a new thread about it.
A list with 3x10 Snaggas went 6-0 at LVO, so, at the very least they don't hurt. That's far from needing a total rewrite, I think. The concept of the all boyz horde is dead. It's a boring and laborious skew list that wasn't ever very fun to play with or against. Narratively? Good fun. Do you balance or do you want narrative though?
You don't have to jump boyz into charges. You jump into cover / obscuring for a turn 2 advance and charge with Waaagh
Trukks and BWs will put pressure on and keep units safer
'Nauts can TP in alongside 30 mans with KFF and pickup a 3D6 charge with the ability to reroll only one dice and swipe on 2s
Keep in mind, I am talking about a competitive 40k environment, maybe not GTs but at least local events and with that said, good luck getting 30 boys into Cover/obscuring terrain, Trukkz and wagonz are severely over priced for what little they do, and if you bring trukkz/wagonz you are limiting yourself to mobz of 10-20(depending on transport type). And at 6ppm a trukk is -11.6 boyz and a wagon is almost -20.
Only Morkanauts can take a KFF, and to do so requires a Super Heavy detachment now, and throwing away 380pts. You could DOUBLE a Morkanauts firepower and it still wouldn't be worth 380pts.
So again, even at 6ppm you wouldn't see boyz being taken except as cheap throwaway troop tax/objective holders.
Dudeface wrote: The tl;dr of the multiple threads about orks/boyz now is that boyz aren't going to get close to being used this edition without needing a total rewrite, might as well let it slide for now rather than having a new thread about it.
As previously noted, I didn't bring up boyz for several codex releases. So why did I this time? Because Kroot are incredibly similar to boyz. And I honestly believe that kroot are going to see significantly more game play than boyz are thanks to their bonus move, cover bonus and their low price.
As previously noted, I didn't bring up boyz for several codex releases. So why did I this time? Because Kroot are incredibly similar to boyz. And I honestly believe that kroot are going to see significantly more game play than boyz are thanks to their bonus move, cover bonus and their low price.
But... why? What are you aiming to do by opening this thread? Are you wanting to see if everyone else thinks kroot carnivores are a more competitive unit?
What does it really have to do with the ork book? The only real comparison is they're cheap(ish) melee troops. They're from factions with utterly different scopes and intents for play styles and supporting units.
Point being that Kroot prove that GW can make a CC centric troops choice at least usable in the general sense. But I admit I am fallible so if a large swathe of people came in and said "no, i think boyz are still better" I would have listened to their arguments and re-evaluated my position.
I suspect this is something we'll just never agree on without playing it - but going back to the 6 point scenario.
I'll give you the painboy is a bit rubbish and you'd almost certainly spend the points better on other things even with this rather silly list. (Makari for 55 might be worth chucking in to fill the slot). The KFF would however help even if it is only for the first turn - because it probably saves 20ish boyz. Which seems like a decent thing to have - not merely due to the points, but because it means I have them to use next turn.
But regardless I accept the Ad Mech list (and most lists tbh - boyz are not that tough) will kill a lot.
The point being that say you do lose 100-110ish boyz in a turn. At 9 points that's half your list. Here its about a third - in practical terms I've got say 160~ boyz left. Maybe the KFF just counters the buffs the Ad Mech would inevitably have - whatever. If he hasn't focus fired units down to maximise morale losses, those units are still in a viable spot. 15-18~ Goff boyz with Waaagh up for 4 attacks will proceed to kill (or mangle anyway) just about any unit in the list they successfully charge. So I think its reasonable to say all the Rust Stalkers, assuming they poked something themselves - and a reasonable number of other units (between the Vanguard, the Infiltrators, the Ballastari etc) that are presumably screening more important targets and the primaries. I've now got obsec bodies flooding forward onto the objectives, and the units you'd use to shift primaries back are dead.
Next turn between morale and shooting maybe the Ad Mech kills another 60-70 boyz. At 9 points my army would basically be finished and the game is all over. Here however I've still got 90-100ish boyz left. Which is plenty. I charge the big squads of rangers and tie up the Disintegrators (assuming I couldn't do so earlier) - and at this point I don't see how he'll ever retake the primary from me or be doing much damage at all while the Boyz keep chopping. I should get a massive lead on the primary and that's game.
As Daed said I'm sure this list could be optimised several ways - but that seems to be a realistic breakdown to me.
Dudeface wrote: The tl;dr of the multiple threads about orks/boyz now is that boyz aren't going to get close to being used this edition without needing a total rewrite, might as well let it slide for now rather than having a new thread about it.
A list with 3x10 Snaggas went 6-0 at LVO, so, at the very least they don't hurt. That's far from needing a total rewrite, I think. The concept of the all boyz horde is dead. It's a boring and laborious skew list that wasn't ever very fun to play with or against. Narratively? Good fun. Do you balance or do you want narrative though?
And a Snagga....is not an ork boy, so...not sure what you're on about here, tbh.
this is like someone making a thread about how bad tactical marines are and going "oh but someone just won a GT with a list that included Incursors" it's a different unit, IDK what to say.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Dudeface wrote: The tl;dr of the multiple threads about orks/boyz now is that boyz aren't going to get close to being used this edition without needing a total rewrite, might as well let it slide for now rather than having a new thread about it.
A list with 3x10 Snaggas went 6-0 at LVO, so, at the very least they don't hurt. That's far from needing a total rewrite, I think. The concept of the all boyz horde is dead. It's a boring and laborious skew list that wasn't ever very fun to play with or against. Narratively? Good fun. Do you balance or do you want narrative though?
And a Snagga....is not an ork boy, so...not sure what you're on about here, tbh.
this is like someone making a thread about how bad tactical marines are and going "oh but someone just won a GT with a list that included Incursors" it's a different unit, IDK what to say.
Either they were action/holding units where the 6++ just kept them alive or they were a more active unit.
If it was the former then you get 2 extra wounds for the same cost. If it's the latter then you get 6 extra attacks ( but all at S4 ).
If you're banking on a 6++ to keep you viable and on the table...it just won't swing the battle at all.
By the time a unit in a transport has actually gone anywhere (as opposed to being off the table in the transport) then it could have just moved there in the same time period, at least for the vast majority of transports in the game. So, no, not mobility.
It's telling that a full transport is less valuable than an empty one. What's that transport capacity even for?
Daedalus81 wrote: The movement you get from move, advance, embark, move, advance, and then on the next turn 3" disembark, move, and advance is quite considerable.
Considerable enough that you: 1) didn't participate in the game Turn 1 (since you had to let the transport advance in front of you, since you both had the same starting line and move almost the same speed) 2) Didn't participate in the game Turn 2 (now you can move up to catch up to the transport) 3) Gained something like 15" of extra movement by turn 3, if the transport hasn't been degraded by then.
Daedalus81 wrote: For those keeping track at home that's going to be between 35 and 40 inches depending on the units -- plus the width of the transport if you embark and disembark on different sides.
Over two turns, and only if the unit started out a move+advance behind the transport from where it wanted to go. In a game where the unit and the transport can just start at pretty much exactly the same starting line.
Guess what?
If that transport were another unit of the same type as the one that you just pulled your trick with, then you could've just moved that unit to the location and not even had to worry about the first unit, which is free to still participate in the game at it's current location, too.
Daedalus81 wrote: People have to stop playing like the game is just "beep beep, push it forward!".
For someone who calls people who can't read his data donkey-caves, you sure are an donkey-cave.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/07 04:36:29
Daedalus81 wrote: The table is smaller. Allowing disembark and charge universally from open-topped would be absolutely brutal.
Probably. Meta and Tactical decisions would change to reign it in though.
Transports give protection, mobility, and extensive redeploy. An empty transport is a valuable tool. The movement you get from move, advance, embark, move, advance, and then on the next turn 3" disembark, move, and advance is quite considerable. For those keeping track at home that's going to be between 35 and 40 inches depending on the units -- plus the width of the transport if you embark and disembark on different sides. Most infantry is move 6, most transports are 12-14.
Are you counting that first move and advance before the embark as part of the 35-40 inches? And the move/advance/charge of the unit after moving? The difference between a transport and not a transport is 6-8-ish inches and a turn. That means at least one shooting phase, potentially two fight phases.
People have to stop playing like the game is just "beep beep, push it forward!".
Tau are awful because they can't fight people off of objectives to score on their next command phase.
Transports are great even though you... can't fight people off objectives to score on your next command phase.
Most of the transports - especially the Dedicated Transports - are not universally useful because transporting is not universally useful. It's almost always situational - scoring a secondary, or one trick ponies like the Drop Pod Bomb, and so on. You're also in effect getting double billed. You have to pay the Transport cost (many of them have an upcharge for the transport capacity) and you have to "pay" 20% of the points cost of the unit being transported because they're off the table and can't do anything for a turn. Even a shooting unit that deletes the unit already on the objective can't score, the best they can do is prevent an opponent score. 10 grots can keep the Intercessors in the Impulsor off the objective by preventing them from unloading close enough to contest. 18 (Rapid Fire impulsor + 5 Rapid Fire Intercessors) shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 2 grots are still there. A reroll bubble probably deletes the unit but adding more points to prevent a score is just throwing more points after bad transports. you've already spent 200+ points to win tactically but lose strategically to 50 points of grots.
By the time a unit in a transport has actually gone anywhere (as opposed to being off the table in the transport) then it could have just moved there in the same time period, at least for the vast majority of transports in the game. So, no, not mobility.
It's telling that a full transport is less valuable than an empty one. What's that transport capacity even for?
Daedalus81 wrote: The movement you get from move, advance, embark, move, advance, and then on the next turn 3" disembark, move, and advance is quite considerable.
Considerable enough that you: 1) didn't participate in the game Turn 1 (since you had to let the transport advance in front of you, since you both had the same starting line and move almost the same speed) 2) Didn't participate in the game Turn 2 (now you can move up to catch up to the transport) 3) Gained something like 15" of extra movement by turn 3, if the transport hasn't been degraded by then.
Daedalus81 wrote: For those keeping track at home that's going to be between 35 and 40 inches depending on the units -- plus the width of the transport if you embark and disembark on different sides.
Over two turns, and only if the unit started out a move+advance behind the transport from where it wanted to go. In a game where the unit and the transport can just start at pretty much exactly the same starting line.
Guess what?
If that transport were another unit of the same type as the one that you just pulled your trick with, then you could've just moved that unit to the location and not even had to worry about the first unit, which is free to still participate in the game at it's current location, too.
Daedalus81 wrote: People have to stop playing like the game is just "beep beep, push it forward!".
For someone who calls people who can't read his data donkey-caves, you sure are an donkey-cave.
I rarely, if ever, agree with unit, bit this is spot on. Trukk boyz only function because they ignore the one rule that made all transports that don't double a gunboats useless.
It's also quite questionable whether disembarking after moving would be such a big issue when you consider that there are droves of units which can pull off first turn charges with less investment than a 70+ point model that can easily be blown up. Both warbikers and storm boyz are almost as fast as the worst case scenario you are trying to paint daed, and I bet there are a ton of eldar units even faster than that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/07 08:27:04
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Spoletta wrote: Transports don't need different rules, they simply need contents.
By its nature a transport is only as good as what it can transport.
The humber rhino has no special rules, no special defenses, no weapons and yet sees regular competitive use in sister lists.
Good point. There should totally be an ork unit with multi-meltas, because nothing else is worth transporting.
Oh, and the "humber" rhino totally has special defenses when it's fielded by sisters, which is part of the reason why they do.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/07 12:53:02
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Facilitating turn 1 charges would obviously make Trukks (and other transports etc) better - but equally it would also make 40k faster. And I think part of the problem for transports is that the game is becoming faster - such that being 10" further forward but only in turn 2 really isn't worth that much.
Spoletta wrote: Transports don't need different rules, they simply need contents.
By its nature a transport is only as good as what it can transport.
The humble rhino has no special rules, no special defenses, no weapons and yet sees regular competitive use in sister lists.
We're just going to ignore the fact that the Rhino gets a pregame move? Effectively letting it move + disembark turn 1... the exact thing Trukk Boyz had to give up their Klan Kulture for? But sisters can do this by just putting a 5man squad of Dominions in it... that also have one of the best, if not the best shooting strategem in the game?
Regarding transports, there's also the matter of fire-points, which appear to have vanished from the face of the earth.
In the past, these allowed units in transports to still contribute to a battle to some extent (often with their special or heavy weapons). So even if a unit wasn't disembarking in a turn - whether for protection or in the aim of moving further in subsequent turns - it wasn't out of the battle entirely.
I'll grant this probably wouldn't change much for orks but it might help stuff like Rhinos and Chimeras see play.
I'm also of the opinion that a unit should absolutely be able to disembark after a transport has moved. That doesn't mean that the unit needs to be able to make a full move afterwards - just have them set up within 3" of the transport. IOW, very similar to the current system except that the unit gets to use its transport's movement speed, rather than its own.
Relevant to Orks, you could also say that the unit can't disembark if the transport Advanced, unless it's open-topped.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Tyel wrote: Facilitating turn 1 charges would obviously make Trukks (and other transports etc) better - but equally it would also make 40k faster. And I think part of the problem for transports is that the game is becoming faster - such that being 10" further forward but only in turn 2 really isn't worth that much.
I don't think that the game would be that much faster/deadlier if people spend 200 something points on underarmed transports instead of on guns that can shoot across the entire board anyways.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: If only there were some way to make the few extra inches of movement per turn matter ok the long run.
You know. Slow the game down and make movement distance relatively more important.
Something like a larger board...
... Ahh a man can dream.
That isn't going to matter though, the problem already existed in 8th when boards were the same size and moving towards the enemy was a meme instead of a necessary tactic to win the game.
As long as the game is partially decided by how much of the enemy army you can kill in the first 2 turns, transports will never matter if they don't give you an advantage until turn 3, even if you play on a 12x6 table.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/07 14:38:58
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
vipoid wrote: Relevant to Orks, you could also say that the unit can't disembark if the transport Advanced, unless it's open-topped.
Honestly, I would scrap the "unless open-topped". Being able to shoot out of the transport with the entire unit when no one else can is already a great thing, and jumping out of open tropped transport after advancing is just bound to result in something terrible for the other two armies with open topped vehicles: Harlequins and Drukhari.
I don't remember clearly how it worked in 5th, but IIRC you also had to slow down to have models jump out and charge. Maybe even return to how it was back then, jump out and shoot for everyone, charge only when stationary, open topped or if you had an assault ramp.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/07 14:48:15
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Blackie wrote: If tankbustas, flash gitz or lootas were valuable units, trukks as they currently are would see a lot of play.
But they'd still be glorified gunboats, not transports.
when the boards are so small, between reserves and tellyporta / other stratagems, most transports are either A: Extra hide or B: glorified gunboats C: superseded by unlimited slots of FA / other availability.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/07 15:03:15
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Jidmah wrote: charge only when stationary, open topped or if you had an assault ramp.
That's about where I am, and I'd make sure (nearly?) every Dedicated Transport was either open topped or had an assault ramp, then go checking all the transports that aren't dedicated for fluff/rules/etc. for which ones should get it too. Thunderhawks/Stormravens/other Transport aircraft should have it flip on and off with their Aircraft rule.
Blackie wrote: If tankbustas, flash gitz or lootas were valuable units, trukks as they currently are would see a lot of play.
But they'd still be glorified gunboats, not transports.
when the boards are so small, between reserves and tellyporta / other stratagems, most transports are either A: Extra hide or B: glorified gunboats C: superseded by unlimited slots of FA / other availability.
I wouldn't be surprised to see boards either get bigger, or movement rates for most footsloggers to get chopped down a couple inches. Even outside of the transport thing, mid-field is too close.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/07 15:41:43
Hold up. Everyone talks about how lethal the game is and not protection has no value? Sisters literally live in transports. It doesn't HAVE to be a unit of great value. It has to be a unit that will be able to out-obsec, out-melee, or action when it gets where it needs to go.
.
By the time a unit in a transport has actually gone anywhere (as opposed to being off the table in the transport) then it could have just moved there in the same time period, at least for the vast majority of transports in the game. So, no, not mobility.
No. An advance roll doesn't guarantee you a 12" to 14" move.
What does this mean? It's telling that a full transport is less valuable than an empty one. What's that transport capacity even for?
Ok let me illustrate.
Transport with unit gets deployed. Another backfield unit is also deployed.
Turn 1 - transport moves up and disgorges payload
Turn 2 - payload is dead, but opponent is weak on that flank; redundant unit takes control of backfield unit and previous objective holder moves into transport; transport pushes forward as fast as possible
Turn 3 - unit jumps out and rushes onto opponent's objective / target
Spoiler:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/07 16:56:14
Hold up. Everyone talks about how lethal the game is and not protection has no value? Sisters literally live in transports.
The reason protection has no value is because lethality is so high. And sisters live in transports for now - Argent Shroud no longer counting as stationary when disembarking will kill that.
By the time a unit in a transport has actually gone anywhere (as opposed to being off the table in the transport) then it could have just moved there in the same time period, at least for the vast majority of transports in the game. So, no, not mobility.
No. An advance roll doesn't guarantee you a 12" to 14" move.
Depending on the army it absolutely can - and even the worst advance rolls are 8" vs a transport's 12. But the turn they embark, the transport has to be back far enough to get the whole unit in embark range, which means it has to back up to only be 10" away before the advance roll anyways or things start to fall apart.
What does this mean? It's telling that a full transport is less valuable than an empty one. What's that transport capacity even for?
*sigh* ok let me illustrate.
Transport with unit gets deployed. Another backfield unit is also deployed.
Turn 1 - transport moves up and disgorges payload
Turn 2 - payload is dead, but opponent is weak on that flank; redundant unit takes control of backfield unit and previous objective holder moves into transport; transport pushes forward as fast as possible
Turn 3 - unit jumps out and rushes onto opponent's objective / target
Spoiler:
So you literally can't do that, because you can't do the disembark turn 1 as you described (it's disembarking after moving).
Having a second unit blobbed up amongst the first achieves the same thing, but that unit also likely has more to contribute than the transport itself.
So you literally can't do that, because you can't do the disembark turn 1 as you described (it's disembarking after moving).
Having a second unit blobbed up amongst the first achieves the same thing, but that unit also likely has more to contribute than the transport itself.
You can with Impulsor, which is what mentally informed the graphic. You can otherwise disembark turn 2 and have that unit go fight then pick up the other unit and go from there. The details aren't what's important. It's that a transport is still a tool and thinking ahead a turn or two on how to continue to get mileage out of it ( literally ) is a valuable use.
Ah yes well I agree transports are very useful if they ignore the normal rules for transports or if the enemy takes no actions against you and your plans for 3 or 4 turns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/07 17:09:50
Unit1126PLL wrote: Ah yes well I agree transports are very useful if they ignore the normal rules for transports or if the enemy takes no actions against you and your plans for 3 or 4 turns.
Even a static transport is a launching pad if you want it to be. A Trukk is 5". An average run for Boyz is 8". Shave 3 to 4" off to be fully within. Disembark the next turn fully within 3" then advance 8". That's a 20" move. Boyz on foot would otherwise go 16" assuming the same advance rolls. If the unit is smaller then getting fully within is easier and you go "further".
But, I forgot that opponents can kill anything at will, everything dies instantly, there is no positional play in 40K, and there is absolutely no reason to plan turns in advance.
I will let Ork players decide whether or not paying 70 points is worth 4" of extra movement for a 10-12 man unit of boys provided everything works out in their favor.
Oh and in that situation the boys couldn't charge until turn 3 (turn 1 the transport spends getting ahead of them and they embark. Turn 2 they disembark. Turn 3 they can finally charge).
Without the truck they can charge on Turn 2 - and if you are in charge range that charge is likely to be longer than 4".
But I admit I am fallible so if a large swathe of people came in and said "no, i think boyz are still better" I would have listened to their arguments and re-evaluated my position.
