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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ah yes well I agree transports are very useful if they ignore the normal rules for transports or if the enemy takes no actions against you and your plans for 3 or 4 turns.

Even a static transport is a launching pad if you want it to be. A Trukk is 5". An average run for Boyz is 8". Shave 3 to 4" off to be fully within. Disembark the next turn fully within 3" then advance 8". That's a 20" move. Boyz on foot would otherwise go 16" assuming the same advance rolls. If the unit is smaller then getting fully within is easier and you go "further".

But, I forgot that opponents can kill anything at will, everything dies instantly, there is no positional play in 40K, and there is absolutely no reason to plan turns in advance.

You're strawmanning other people's arguments to avoid admitting that you're wrong.

The argument of "the game rules are always right and nothing is wrong" is getting tiresome buddy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Even a static transport is a launching pad if you want it to be. A Trukk is 5". An average run for Boyz is 8". Shave 3 to 4" off to be fully within. Disembark the next turn fully within 3" then advance 8". That's a 20" move. Boyz on foot would otherwise go 16" assuming the same advance rolls. If the unit is smaller then getting fully within is easier and you go "further".

But, I forgot that opponents can kill anything at will, everything dies instantly, there is no positional play in 40K, and there is absolutely no reason to plan turns in advance.

Have you looked at what tournament players are routinely doing even after the nerfs? 40k when played with good lists is very much a game where hiding is difficult and anything on the board has the potential to be killed or crippled turn one almost regardless of positioning. That goes double for something as 'durable' as a Trukk.

Hecaton wrote:

You're strawmanning other people's arguments to avoid admitting that you're wrong.

The argument of "the game rules are always right and nothing is wrong" is getting tiresome buddy.

JFC

No. I'm not. I'm literally telling you that games play out this way. As in first hand experience as well as publicly available battle reports.

But I get lectured by people who don't even play this edition.


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 Canadian 5th wrote:
Have you looked at what tournament players are routinely doing even after the nerfs? 40k when played with good lists is very much a game where hiding is difficult and anything on the board has the potential to be killed or crippled turn one almost regardless of positioning. That goes double for something as 'durable' as a Trukk.

Hiding is NOT difficult if you're playing on GW terrain. I get that lots of people don't want to do that, but if we don't want to discuss the game as it is currently designed I don't know what else to tell you.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
JFC

No. I'm not. I'm literally telling you that games play out this way. As in first hand experience as well as publicly available battle reports.

But I get lectured by people who don't even play this edition.

Please tell me what exactly you'd have done to stop Richard Siegler's Mars Veteran Cohort from doing whatever he wants to your list? The game doesn't just exist within whatever collection of models you and your group use, it exists within the entire scope of 40k including tournament play. How does your list stand up to a list that is designed, first and foremost, to win?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Hiding is NOT difficult if you're playing on GW terrain. I get that lots of people don't want to do that, but if we don't want to discuss the game as it is currently designed I don't know what else to tell you.

Which exact GW terrain? GW ruins often have tons of windows, the craters and pipes aren't tall enough (or have gaps beneath them) and can't hide anything. If you have to cherrypick GW terrain and specifically include big LOS blockers in every deployment zone that is a failure of design.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Please tell me what exactly you'd have done to stop Richard Siegler's Mars Veteran Cohort from doing whatever he wants to your list? The game doesn't just exist within whatever collection of models you and your group use, it exists within the entire scope of 40k including tournament play. How does your list stand up to a list that is designed, first and foremost, to win?

To play 40K you have to put models on the table. For me to tell you how I would even think of approaching Siegler would require me to look at his deployment, the mission, consider secondaries, and reshape the plan on in game developments.

This isn't even a question that is remotely answerable without 20 pages of what-ifs.

Which exact GW terrain? GW ruins often have tons of windows, the craters and pipes aren't tall enough (or have gaps beneath them) and can't hide anything. If you have to cherrypick GW terrain and specifically include big LOS blockers in every deployment zone that is a failure of design.

This makes it so painfully obvious that you have zero experience in 9th.

I'm out. I can't take these ridiculous posts. You guys can bitch and moan your hypotheticals all you want now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
To play 40K you have to put models on the table. For me to tell you how I would even think of approaching Siegler would require me to look at his deployment, the mission, consider secondaries, and reshape the plan on in game developments.

This isn't even a question that is remotely answerable without 20 pages of what-ifs.

Nonsense, the ITC results, table layouts, etc. are all out there, you don't need to guess about it. sub your army into the finals and tell me how you win that game. You seem to think it's easy to do, so show us plebs how it's done.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If tankbustas, flash gitz or lootas were valuable units, trukks as they currently are would see a lot of play.

But they'd still be glorified gunboats, not transports.

when the boards are so small, between reserves and tellyporta / other stratagems, most transports are either A: Extra hide or B: glorified gunboats C: superseded by unlimited slots of FA / other availability.

Fully agree. For several armies it's also rare to see transports survive more than a single turn if you do bring them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

JFC

No. I'm not. I'm literally telling you that games play out this way. As in first hand experience as well as publicly available battle reports.

But I get lectured by people who don't even play this edition.

Dude, I was at LVO, I have friends who are very serious about the 40k tournament scene, I know what's up. You saying that games play out this way at a high level is just wrong. Your retreat when asked how you'd handle Siegler's setup just shows that you know you're just bluster.

Hey all, if we can take the down of the conversation down here, it'll help a lot. Make use of the "Ignore" function if necessary. Thanks!

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hey all, if we can take the down of the conversation down here, it'll help a lot. Make use of the "Ignore" function if necessary. Thanks!

At a certain point it's trolling if someone keeps stating something despite being shown to be wrong.

Hecaton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

JFC

No. I'm not. I'm literally telling you that games play out this way. As in first hand experience as well as publicly available battle reports.

But I get lectured by people who don't even play this edition.

Dude, I was at LVO, I have friends who are very serious about the 40k tournament scene, I know what's up. You saying that games play out this way at a high level is just wrong. Your retreat when asked how you'd handle Siegler's setup just shows that you know you're just bluster.

Daed didn't mention "high level", where oddly the vast majority of games don't take place. For what it's worth I play every game like the LVO champ is going to be waiting at my brothers house in a different country ready to kick the teeth in on my PL crusade force, I know some people who did stuff too so listen to me for internet points.

Hecaton wrote:
Dude, I was at LVO, I have friends who are very serious about the 40k tournament scene, I know what's up. You saying that games play out this way at a high level is just wrong. Your retreat when asked how you'd handle Siegler's setup just shows that you know you're just bluster.

That's not a retreat. That's knowing that it's a stupid exercise that you think is some amazing query but it's such a ridiculous non sequitur. "Hey rando, how would you beat Michael Jordan at basketball?!" GOOOTCHA!

Also, I never said high level. Why? Because those armies are almost all transport barren right now.

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Hecaton wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hey all, if we can take the down of the conversation down here, it'll help a lot. Make use of the "Ignore" function if necessary. Thanks!

At a certain point it's trolling if someone keeps stating something despite being shown to be wrong.

I didn't know that firsthand experience was fake and that being "shown" means some people who mostly don't play make an assertion. Good to know.

Dudeface wrote:
Daed didn't mention "high level", where oddly the vast majority of games don't take place.

But he was replying to people who clearly were talking about that kind of play, in-context. So he either misunderstood the conversation he's in, or misunderstands 40k.

Hecaton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Daed didn't mention "high level", where oddly the vast majority of games don't take place.

But he was replying to people who clearly were talking about that kind of play, in-context. So he either misunderstood the conversation he's in, or misunderstands 40k.

You mean this comment?

Keep in mind, I am talking about a competitive 40k environment, maybe not GTs but at least local events

Hooo boy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
That's not a retreat. That's knowing that it's a stupid exercise that you think is some amazing query but it's such a ridiculous non sequitur. "Hey rando, how would you beat Michael Jordan at basketball?!" GOOOTCHA!

How do you beat that style of list on tournament terrain tables? You don't have to beat the man or even the list, just explain how you would approach the list with your own usual list and what value transports would bring to such a battle.

Also, I never said high level. Why? Because those armies are almost all transport barren right now.

Might that be because transports aren't that valuable right now? This, by my reading, is what this entire thread has been telling you.

Might that be because transports aren't that valuable right now? This, by my reading, is what this entire thread has been telling you.

Because Crusher Stampede has transports? Why would Wracks need transport when they're already super durable and mobile? Custodes? GK has Interceptors and teleport, soo....

 Canadian 5th wrote:
How do you beat that style of list on tournament terrain tables? You don't have to beat the man or even the list, just explain how you would approach the list with your own usual list and what value transports would bring to such a battle.

It's literally an opportunity play. It isn't something you explicitly plan to do when you start a game. As the game develops you make a plan and react.

Against that list I have three major concerns: 1) losing backfield to Disintegrators, 2) the exploding 6s Stalkers, and 3) the Telemetry Rangers ( because I simply won't be able to kill them ). My opportunity target is the Marshall with rr1s to hit and wound.

I am absolutely not concerned about his ranged anti-tank capability.

If the mission is Take and Hold I have time to let him come towards me since he has no teleport. Domination might be harder. Rhinos will be important to redeploy away from the Telemetry Rangers because I won't even bother attacking them, put flamer Rubrics in the ( indirect ) path of Stalkers, and to keep units safe from indirect fire when possible.

If the Rhinos are sufficiently wounded there will be move blocking opportunities to place the Rhinos between Stalkers and my backfield objectives. If they have too much health he won't kill them and could potentially wrap me and stay in combat until his turn. Otherwise it puts them in a spot where I can move and advance on them with flamers. Someone like Siegler would be unlikely to make that blunder so I might stash a rhino within one of the larger ruins to keep other blocks easily coming through that angle.

There is no way I will be able to open holes in his backfield so my terminators will just be deepstriking towards the side away from Telemetry Rangers and trying to push the other block out. If I have transports and I feel like I can make headway into his objective then I'll pick up my units and start rotating them - A goes to B, B goes to C.

But how I react depends on the number of objectives, my secondaries and his ( of which I know one ), as well as the deployment zones and mission itself among a million other things that can happen.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The tl;dr of the multiple threads about orks/boyz now is that boyz aren't going to get close to being used this edition without needing a total rewrite, might as well let it slide for now rather than having a new thread about it.

A list with 3x10 Snaggas went 6-0 at LVO, so, at the very least they don't hurt. That's far from needing a total rewrite, I think. The concept of the all boyz horde is dead. It's a boring and laborious skew list that wasn't ever very fun to play with or against. Narratively? Good fun. Do you balance or do you want narrative though?

And a Snagga....is not an ork boy, so...not sure what you're on about here, tbh.

this is like someone making a thread about how bad tactical marines are and going "oh but someone just won a GT with a list that included Incursors" it's a different unit, IDK what to say.

Either they were action/holding units where the 6++ just kept them alive or they were a more active unit.

If it was the former then you get 2 extra wounds for the same cost. If it's the latter then you get 6 extra attacks ( but all at S4 ).

If you're banking on a 6++ to keep you viable and on the table...it just won't swing the battle at all.

They go in Kill Rigs, if you made me guess.The lack of a non-deadweight delivery mechanism for boyz is one of the primary issues with them, and one of the reasons their inclusion is not worth the 3CP you save by including some.

Boyz are just not an efficient unit for their *actual* (not theoretical) cost - i.e. the cost of 10 boyz, a klaw, and a trukk.

And Gretchins are SO beyond the pale terrible that theyre literally not even worth as a 50pt action monkey unit. You wanna talk about a laughable comparison with kroot.....yeaaaaaahhhhh......

Snaggas would seem to be enough of a useful unit to justify taking a minimum amount of them in a couple competitive lists.

Not exactly high praise IMO. Just anecdotally - Boyz feel like absolute ass on the tabletop. Theyre hideously slow, they get shredded by basically anything your opponent points at them, and when you actually build around them they wind up being like 650pts of your 2000pts list just for 3 basic squads with the necessary delivery support. Youve got about as much reason to take Boyz as you have to take squads of 10 tactical marines in rhinos with a powerfist sergeant and trying to charge them into melee.

 the_scotsman wrote:
They go in Kill Rigs, if you made me guess.The lack of a non-deadweight delivery mechanism for boyz is one of the primary issues with them, and one of the reasons their inclusion is not worth the 3CP you save by including some.

Boyz are just not an efficient unit for their *actual* (not theoretical) cost - i.e. the cost of 10 boyz, a klaw, and a trukk.

And Gretchins are SO beyond the pale terrible that theyre literally not even worth as a 50pt action monkey unit. You wanna talk about a laughable comparison with kroot.....yeaaaaaahhhhh......

Snaggas would seem to be enough of a useful unit to justify taking a minimum amount of them in a couple competitive lists.

Not exactly high praise IMO. Just anecdotally - Boyz feel like absolute ass on the tabletop. Theyre hideously slow, they get shredded by basically anything your opponent points at them, and when you actually build around them they wind up being like 650pts of your 2000pts list just for 3 basic squads with the necessary delivery support. Youve got about as much reason to take Boyz as you have to take squads of 10 tactical marines in rhinos with a powerfist sergeant and trying to charge them into melee.

Boyz do work in melee.

It becomes a matter of priorities. If you have a 30 mob just hanging in the wind it will get shot to hell. If you have MANZ in one transport and Boyz in another, which are you going to spill out first? If you also have 10 Kommandos in cover where is your focus? Grots on the backfield? What are you doing to shield from Jump and Tellyporta Boyz?

If HH go bananas then knocking transports becomes easy ( though BW don't go terribly easy ) and the terrain you use becomes way more important.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


So you literally can't do that, because you can't do the disembark turn 1 as you described (it's disembarking after moving).

Having a second unit blobbed up amongst the first achieves the same thing, but that unit also likely has more to contribute than the transport itself.

You can with Impulsor, which is what mentally informed the graphic. You can otherwise disembark turn 2 and have that unit go fight then pick up the other unit and go from there. The details aren't what's important. It's that a transport is still a tool and thinking ahead a turn or two on how to continue to get mileage out of it ( literally ) is a valuable use.

Sisters live in Rhinos.
Here's an example for transports.
You can't do that with a Rhino.
You can with an Impulsor
Sisters don't live in Impulsors.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It becomes a matter of priorities. If you have a 30 mob just hanging in the wind it will get shot to hell. If you have MANZ in one transport and Boyz in another, which are you going to spill out first? If you also have 10 Kommandos in cover where is your focus? Grots on the backfield? What are you doing to shield from Jump and Tellyporta Boyz?

Ah yes, the infamous "Your opponent will be distracted and shoot the wrong thing! That's why they're good!"

I've seen it across multiple game lines, with people arguing why X trash choice is actually secretly good. It's a bad argument, because it relies on your opponent making mistakes, and they will likely not make it, and that unit will remain a suboptimal choice.


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Breton wrote:

Sisters live in Rhinos.
Here's an example for transports.
You can't do that with a Rhino.
You can with an Impulsor
Sisters don't live in Impulsors.

Yes, exactly. He's forced to retreat from his own examples when they (inevitably) fail.

Just admit you're wrong, dude, and move on. The game isn't ingeniously balanced by GW, and yes some yahoos on a forum like us can identify part of what's wrong.

 the_scotsman wrote:
They go in Kill Rigs, if you made me guess.The lack of a non-deadweight delivery mechanism for boyz is one of the primary issues with them, and one of the reasons their inclusion is not worth the 3CP you save by including some.

The thing with kill rigs and beast snaggas is actually that people bring the beast snagga boyz as an "upgrade" for the kill rig, similar to how the DAVU used to work back in the days. If kill rigs could transport any other unit or if they weren't as good as they are, beast snaggas would immediately be out of the equation.

The best army right now is Drukhari and we know T5 doesn't mean anything to them. So Kroot >>> Boyz.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Boyz do work in melee.

Against what? T3 units with bad saves that can't fight back? Do you need a unit that is slightly above average at killing something that can be killed by anything?

Drop your armchair theory for a moment, proxy some boyz and do some actual charges and dice rolls against some common objective campers like any of the primaris troops, necron warriors, a unit of sisters or rubrics using common army traits and stratagems. See how that works for you. If you want to do it in a scientific way, do it ten times and record those tries.
Without the Waaagh! boyz already struggle to take down pox walkers, and that is generously assuming they didn't take casualties from overwatch, their transport exploding or other things.

It becomes a matter of priorities. If you have a 30 mob just hanging in the wind it will get shot to hell. If you have MANZ in one transport and Boyz in another, which are you going to spill out first?

The correct answer is, that instead of boyz, you bring more MANz. MANz are 105 points now, a unit of boyz with a PK is 100. There is no reason not to upgrade.
If you have maxed out MANz, you bring, kommadoz. If you have maxed out those, you bring storm boyz. Maxed out storm boyz? Bring warbikers or squig hogs. There is nothing boyz can do that these units can't do more efficiently - except fill a troops slot for a free patrol.

If you also have 10 Kommandos in cover where is your focus?

Once again, don't bring boyz, bring more kommandoz. Bring more anything but boyz.
The 270 points you spend on that mob of 30 is 270 points wasted on not bringing units that are strictly better than boyz.

What are you doing to shield from Jump and Tellyporta Boyz?

Nothing, because both are crap and no one uses them. Casting Da Jump is unreliable and when multiplied with the chance to fail the charge is already doing a great job of protecting the ork's enemies from it all by itself, let alone how unlikely you are to find a good spot to plonk down 30 32mm bases if you go second.
Tellyporta boyz are slightly more reliable, but kommandoz and storm boyz do the very same thing better and more reliably.
And that doesn't even account for the multitude tools that some armies have for blocking powers, shooting at reserves or creating bubbles where no one can arrive.

This isn't 8th edition anymore where you got +1 to charges from the ES culture and bonusses to casting while a gunline meta and larger tables made charges from deep strike easy to set up.

Seriously, get yourself TTS, set up a game against your best army, build an ork army focused on boyz and try to win against yourself.

Boyz might look good on paper, but they absolutely aren't on the table top. I'm convinced that your opinion solely stems from never having experienced that first hand.

It'll also be interesting to see what - if any- change the new Nachmund missions will make. For a majority of those missions you're looking at objectives beyond the second being 15-21 inches away rather than 12" opening a minor time crunch to get on them.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was an attempt to beat us into transports with the meta, but will more likely just increase the value of deep strike and infiltrate.

I think Goff Boyz in a Waaagh work in melee. I agree however delivery and just getting around the board is however a major problem - and trukks don't cut it.

Moreover, if say you didn't want to go Goffs - say you went ES for the extra movement (which will add up over 2-3 turns). Now as Jidmah suggests your boyz can't reliably deal with anything above guardsmen. Which is just bad.

With that said, Semper was I think making Trukk Boyz work? Unless you've changed your list/moved on to Manz/I'm just misremembering. But I guess the issue is first turn charge into what you want tends to beat "2nd turn, probably running into a screen".

Hecaton wrote:
Ah yes, the infamous "Your opponent will be distracted and shoot the wrong thing! That's why they're good!"

I've seen it across multiple game lines, with people arguing why X trash choice is actually secretly good. It's a bad argument, because it relies on your opponent making mistakes, and they will likely not make it, and that unit will remain a suboptimal choice.

No, I'm saying that if you play your lines of sight well and control objectives in a way that makes your opponent need to push them off then your units that aren't as visible and aren't in priority regions will not get targeted as much. It has nothing to do with the unit itself.

Yes, exactly. He's forced to retreat from his own examples when they (inevitably) fail.

Just admit you're wrong, dude, and move on. The game isn't ingeniously balanced by GW, and yes some yahoos on a forum like us can identify part of what's wrong.

It doesn't fail. It works with any transport. I'm sorry that I tried to make a quick simplified example to demonstrate the concept.


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bibotot wrote:
The best army right now is Drukhari and we know T5 doesn't mean anything to them. So Kroot >>> Boyz.

This misses so much about DE, which bring T4/T5 troops in some lists and transports in others.

Breton wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If tankbustas, flash gitz or lootas were valuable units, trukks as they currently are would see a lot of play.

But they'd still be glorified gunboats, not transports.

With 5'' M they might need LoS. That's one of the main reasons why open topped transports exist. Problems of those units are they're either too expensive for what they do, have an obsolete weapon's profile or suffer from carrying a heavy weapon which comes with a penalty if the unit moves. Sometimes they have multiple of those problems.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
They go in Kill Rigs, if you made me guess.The lack of a non-deadweight delivery mechanism for boyz is one of the primary issues with them, and one of the reasons their inclusion is not worth the 3CP you save by including some.

Boyz are just not an efficient unit for their *actual* (not theoretical) cost - i.e. the cost of 10 boyz, a klaw, and a trukk.

And Gretchins are SO beyond the pale terrible that theyre literally not even worth as a 50pt action monkey unit. You wanna talk about a laughable comparison with kroot.....yeaaaaaahhhhh......

Snaggas would seem to be enough of a useful unit to justify taking a minimum amount of them in a couple competitive lists.

Not exactly high praise IMO. Just anecdotally - Boyz feel like absolute ass on the tabletop. Theyre hideously slow, they get shredded by basically anything your opponent points at them, and when you actually build around them they wind up being like 650pts of your 2000pts list just for 3 basic squads with the necessary delivery support. Youve got about as much reason to take Boyz as you have to take squads of 10 tactical marines in rhinos with a powerfist sergeant and trying to charge them into melee.

Boyz do work in melee.

It becomes a matter of priorities. If you have a 30 mob just hanging in the wind it will get shot to hell. If you have MANZ in one transport and Boyz in another, which are you going to spill out first? If you also have 10 Kommandos in cover where is your focus? Grots on the backfield? What are you doing to shield from Jump and Tellyporta Boyz?

If HH go bananas then knocking transports becomes easy ( though BW don't go terribly easy ) and the terrain you use becomes way more important.

You're not, because nobody's stupid enough to TAKE da jump and tellyporta boyz.

Time was, Boyz were the unit that you took because they were the defensive choice. They were stripped down, not paying for any equipment, so they were the unit that you had the option to sit and take some firepower and they'd be able to hold onto objectives or charge up the field with some buffers and make it into combat.

9th ed has put paid to the idea that ANYTHING should be able to take firepower, at all, without just folding basically instantly, and boyz are still trapped in the paradigm of "Do not instantly appear on the battlefield within their preferred range band ready to attack."

Theres a reason why you dont generally see hardly any units that work like that anymore. Now, if you want to come and play, you gotta be able to

-deploy within threat range
-deep strike within threat range
-move fast enough to just go from your dz to the opponent's dz
-have the range to pop out from behind obscuring and fire with full effect

if you dont do that? You dont have a place in the 9e meta. And that's where boyz are at. There are alternative units to boyz that DO do that (warbikers, stormboyz, kommandos) which attack in generally the same S4-S5 D1 chaff clearing weight of fire style as boyz but unlike boyz can instantly be ready to go...but boyz cant, not reliably or cost-effectively. Da Jump is a bad joke, cumulatively over a 50% chance that your MASSIVE points investment does fething nothing, either by the psychic power failing or by the boyz failing to get in.

To the point of the thread - invidiually, no, kroot's statline is worse than ork boyz statline, but as an actual usable unit? Yeah, youre going to see Kroot, you will not see Boyz. It is what it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Ah yes, the infamous "Your opponent will be distracted and shoot the wrong thing! That's why they're good!"

I've seen it across multiple game lines, with people arguing why X trash choice is actually secretly good. It's a bad argument, because it relies on your opponent making mistakes, and they will likely not make it, and that unit will remain a suboptimal choice.

No, I'm saying that if you play your lines of sight well and control objectives in a way that makes your opponent need to push them off then your units that aren't as visible and aren't in priority regions will not get targeted as much. It has nothing to do with the unit itself.

So, why have we not seen your tournament wins with Ork Boyz and Transport tactics?Because it sure seems like from...basically all the meta that has existed since the start of 8e, that mechanized tactics with transports are actually trash, because as it turns out, you dont HAVE to choose delayed gratification with other types of units. Basically everyone can just choose to build their list out in the strategy layer to have everything in range on demand, and turns out, that works better!

In 9e if you present your opponent with "oooo lots of targets what are you gonna shoot???" the answer is "All of it.

You're fething tabled, bro.

I kill all your gak, all at once.

We're playing 9th ed, idiot."

I’m still baffled why orks have some of the lowest amounts of troops. They basically have two, and I’d argue grots don’t even count.

Its interesting to work out how low shoota boyz would have to go to be attractive. 6 points for T5 seems a bit crazy - but I think I'd still prefer Kroot, assuming the full suite of synergies.