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Hecaton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ok, I'll restate. Incredibly hard to inflict enough casualties before they get to you ( remember that you still have to get objectives ) and then you have the other half of the army to worry about.

I said do the math. I don't want to hear your explanations about what "should" happen, which always seem to favor the idea that everyone's army except yours is perfectly balanced and they should shut up. Do the math so we can see if you're right or wrong.

See, again with the pretending there's no terrain and nothing else to consider. And I have made absolutely zero claims that my army is unbalanced nor have I ever told anyone to shut up.

So here's something to chew on:

The 8 Stalkers from Siegler with TBs with MW on 6s, exploding 6s to hit, +1S strat, +1 canticle, and +1WS doctrina has an 80% chance to kill 20 T5 6++/6+++ Boyz( or less ).

10 remaining Goffs with PK and no Waaagh and exploding 5s have a 47% chance to kill all 8 Stalkers - 5 or more is 93%. 10 such Boyz with Waaagh kill 8 Stalkers 86% of the time ( which means they can kill more than 8 pretty easily ) - and that's without considering Warboss +1 to hit.

18 Rangers with BS2 and rr wounds and hits of 1 kill up to 11 80% of the time:
( chart shows % chance to kill X Boyz - pink line is the cumulative from that point forward )


He has two of those. Disintegrators can kill 2.5 each. So all of his shooting kills MAYBE a mob a turn. MAYBE. Once it comes down to melee engagement a Waaagh and bad placement will wipe out the Ruststalkers pretty quickly.

And you still have to deal with the rest of the army.

Cue comments, "omg so you think you can beat Siegler with that army?!"

The math looks accurate. But is it relevant?

An 8-man squad of Stalkers, costing about 150 points, kills 2/3rds of a 30-strong Boys squad, then gets an additional four from Morale unless a 1 is rolled for an auto-pass. That's a 140% return on the points invested with Morale, or 120% if Morale is passed.

Not to mention, a big squad of Boys means that it'd be pretty easy to charge with two squads of Stalkers.

Where are those boys getting the 6+++? Are the points for the Painboy taken into account?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ok, I'll restate. Incredibly hard to inflict enough casualties before they get to you ( remember that you still have to get objectives ) and then you have the other half of the army to worry about.

I said do the math. I don't want to hear your explanations about what "should" happen, which always seem to favor the idea that everyone's army except yours is perfectly balanced and they should shut up. Do the math so we can see if you're right or wrong.

See, again with the pretending there's no terrain and nothing else to consider. And I have made absolutely zero claims that my army is unbalanced nor have I ever told anyone to shut up.

So here's something to chew on:

The 8 Stalkers from Siegler with TBs with MW on 6s, exploding 6s to hit, +1S strat, +1 canticle, and +1WS doctrina has an 80% chance to kill 20 T5 6++/6+++ Boyz( or less ).

10 remaining Goffs with PK and no Waaagh and exploding 5s have a 47% chance to kill all 8 Stalkers - 5 or more is 93%. 10 such Boyz with Waaagh kill 8 Stalkers 86% of the time ( which means they can kill more than 8 pretty easily ) - and that's without considering Warboss +1 to hit.

18 Rangers with BS2 and rr wounds and hits of 1 kill up to 11 80% of the time:
( chart shows % chance to kill X Boyz - pink line is the cumulative from that point forward )


He has two of those. Disintegrators can kill 2.5 each. So all of his shooting kills MAYBE a mob a turn. MAYBE. Once it comes down to melee engagement a Waaagh and bad placement will wipe out the Ruststalkers pretty quickly.

And you still have to deal with the rest of the army.

Cue comments, "omg so you think you can beat Siegler with that army?!"

Do you think lists would stay 100% the same if Ork hordes became a top level threat? I rather suspect that players would build in more anti-horde either via lots of attacks or by feeding the works tarpit units and preventing them from tying up units of value.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
See, again with the pretending there's no terrain and nothing else to consider. And I have made absolutely zero claims that my army is unbalanced nor have I ever told anyone to shut up.

That's definitely the subtext of what you're saying, considering you're ignoring people's evidence and saying that they're wrong regardless.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Math

I'll just repeat what was said by others, and say that those are not even points. This is something you did earlier in the thread, refused to compare point-to-point, presumably because it would make your arguments fail.

Hecaton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
See, again with the pretending there's no terrain and nothing else to consider. And I have made absolutely zero claims that my army is unbalanced nor have I ever told anyone to shut up.

That's definitely the subtext of what you're saying, considering you're ignoring people's evidence and saying that they're wrong regardless.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Math

I'll just repeat what was said by others, and say that those are not even points. This is something you did earlier in the thread, refused to compare point-to-point, presumably because it would make your arguments fail.

Hence why I asked if the points for the Painboy to give the 6+++ was taken into consideration.

I'm sort of lost on what people are even arguing now. Is it "would Boyz be good if they were just immune to morale full stop?"

To my mind the issue is threat range and therefore who likely gets the jump. Which doesn't just apply to Boyz, but to everything in 9th. Because yes - Stalkers do a reasonable number on boyz. But in some slightly contrived scenario where 30 Goff boyz (or even 3 units of 10, whatever) could charge 2-3 big Stalker units, they have good odds to delete them for a very efficient points return too.

The issue however is that Stalkers are naturally M8" to Boyz M5". There's lots of things you can do to boost both - but I don't think you can make up that gap. So the working assumption is that the Stalkers should charge. And if that means feeding a 45 point chaff unit to the Boyz to set things up, that's fine. Orks can't obviously do the same (although I guess 5 man Kommando squads can contribute here.)

Points:
Kroot: 6
Boyz: 9

Winner per base and points Kroot

Range Output:
Kroot: BS4, RF24 s4 ap0 1d
Boyz: BS5, P1 s4 ap0 1d

Winner per base and points Kroot

Melee Output:
Kroot: 2a s4 -1 1d
Boyz: 3a s4 -1 1d

Winner per base Boyz, per points equal

Mobility:
Kroot: 7" M, pregame 7"
Boyz: 5" M, Reroll charge

Winner Kroot

Durability:
Kroot: T3 1W 6+(4+ cover)
Boyz: T5 1W 6+(5+ cover)

Per base Boyz, per points equal

I don't think you can make any argument to dispute that Kroot excel over Boyz as the "cheap melee horde unit"

Tyel wrote:
I'm sort of lost on what people are even arguing now. Is it "would Boyz be good if they were just immune to morale full stop?"

To my mind the issue is threat range and therefore who likely gets the jump. Which doesn't just apply to Boyz, but to everything in 9th. Because yes - Stalkers do a reasonable number on boyz. But in some slightly contrived scenario where 30 Goff boyz (or even 3 units of 10, whatever) could charge 2-3 big Stalker units, they have good odds to delete them for a very efficient points return too.

The issue however is that Stalkers are naturally M8" to Boyz M5". There's lots of things you can do to boost both - but I don't think you can make up that gap. So the working assumption is that the Stalkers should charge. And if that means feeding a 45 point chaff unit to the Boyz to set things up, that's fine. Orks can't obviously do the same (although I guess 5 man Kommando squads can contribute here.)

Not full stop. Just as long as they are a decent size squad.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The math looks accurate. But is it relevant?

An 8-man squad of Stalkers, costing about 150 points, kills 2/3rds of a 30-strong Boys squad, then gets an additional four from Morale unless a 1 is rolled for an auto-pass. That's a 140% return on the points invested with Morale, or 120% if Morale is passed.

Sorry there seems to be some confusion about the exercise based on this and a couple other posts.

The situation was a hypothetical where Boyz got their old morale back and why the codex has deliberate design decisions to avoid creating a scenario where hordes are the best pick in a mission set that values objective control.

The Stalkers may kill 2/3, but the return from just 100 points of Boyz has a great chance to kill that 150. If Boyz are the initiators and there's no fight last the damage they can do is likely quite higher and without the level of investment Admech makes into a single squad of Stalkers.

Not to mention, a big squad of Boys means that it'd be pretty easy to charge with two squads of Stalkers.

Certainly, but it all comes down to positioning, Waaagh timing, and advance rolls.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Points:
Kroot: 6
Boyz: 9

Winner per base and points Kroot

Range Output:
Kroot: BS4, RF24 s4 ap0 1d
Boyz: BS5, P1 s4 ap0 1d

Winner per base and points Kroot

Melee Output:
Kroot: 2a s4 -1 1d
Boyz: 3a s4 -1 1d

Winner per base Boyz, per points equal

Mobility:
Kroot: 7" M, pregame 7"
Boyz: 5" M, Reroll charge

Winner Kroot

Durability:
Kroot: T3 1W 6+(4+ cover)
Boyz: T5 1W 6+(5+ cover)

Per base Boyz, per points equal

I don't think you can make any argument to dispute that Kroot excel over Boyz as the "cheap melee horde unit"

Sure. But, and just to be clear here, I'm not arguing that ork boyz have a place INTERNALLY in the ork codex as there are several units that outclass them, but...

...you do have to acknowledge that Kroot have access to almost zero -

-buffs
-subfaction bonuses (boyz have access to several which decrease the mobility gap, the firepower gap, increase the melee damage gap, etc)
-army-wide bonuses, namely Waaagh
-special weapon upgrades

Do I think boyz are probably in need of a buff? Yes. a 1pt drop and some return of an ability (maybe even a defensive ability, horror of horrors) to incentivize taking more than 10 would be what id go with.

but we are being a bit silly in this thread. Kroot and Boyz arent intended to do the same thing. 120 kroot surging forward towards enemy lines and trying to deal and soak damage in enemy lines are going to fail, just as hard if not harder than boyz. Theyre totally reliant on hiding in Light Cover to stay difficult to kill, which means theyll probably wind up being fairly handy-dandy screen/action monkey units.

Hecaton wrote:
That's definitely the subtext of what you're saying, considering you're ignoring people's evidence and saying that they're wrong regardless.

I am sorry if I have made people feel as though I am ignoring their evidence. I do genuinely understand the arguments made and I feel like I do take that into posts even if they seem edgy in text. I myself find my points get roundly ignored so I think perhaps we're talking past each other a bit.

I'll try and be less of a dick.

I still think people get far too locked into a mindset and stop trying to think around the problem though.

I'll just repeat what was said by others, and say that those are not even points. This is something you did earlier in the thread, refused to compare point-to-point, presumably because it would make your arguments fail.

Point for point is good for surface level analysis and I think that's where people get too caught up. The Hammerhead has some great math behind it, but at the Beachhead Brawl this past weekend there wasn't a single HH in any list ( I think one Longstrike ) -- because the math doesn't tell the whole story when you factor in the big picture including how missions operate.

Kroot were pretty rare as well aside from a guy who went Dal - triple SS and 130 Kroot. His record was WLLWWDL. Lost to Knights, Custodes, and Admech. Draw was against Harlies&DE soup. The wins were all against marines.

I think drones are probably too good (is anyone remotely surprised?). The result is awkward to kill Crisis blobs with numerous buffs seem the way to go versus HH.

I'm sure someone will have the courage (and models?) to run the 240 Kroot Carpet at some point.

Tyel wrote:
I think drones are probably too good (is anyone remotely surprised?). The result is awkward to kill Crisis blobs with numerous buffs seem the way to go versus HH.

I'm sure someone will have the courage (and models?) to run the 240 Kroot Carpet at some point.

Yea...drones are good, but perhaps not necessary either ( though top players had tons ). Lots of T'au did well with limited or no drones. Definitely a wide variety of lists.

Tyel wrote:
I think drones are probably too good (is anyone remotely surprised?).

I see what you did there.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

To me it all feels deliberate...but stripped so that they can add back with DLC. You just can't do old mob with T5, because once you do then one KFF covers 120 models easy and you have a 6+++ and basically an unkillable horde that you have to strip to the model.

Points changes have been nuts recently and I can't find my old 8th codex so if I'm incorrect let me know, but I believe in 8th boyz were 7ppm. So yes, a T4 boy with a 5++ was MORE durable point for point than a T5 ork with a 6+++.

To kill a T5 boy with a 6+++ it takes 3.6 bolter hits. (3.6 hits, 1.2 wounds, 1 failed save)
To kill a T4 Boy with a 5+++ it takes 3.0 Bolter hits. (3 hits, 1.5 wounds, 1 failed save)
Find the common denominator which is 63. So T5 boyz get 7 models, T4 boyz get 9.

T5 takes 25.2 hits, T4 takes 27.

So yes, based on points percentages the T4 boyz were in fact slightly more durable than T5 would be if given similar morale invulnerability....and that isn't even factoring in the increase in cost to the KFF which has gone up as well.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


The 8 Stalkers from Siegler with TBs with MW on 6s, exploding 6s to hit, +1S strat, +1 canticle, and +1WS doctrina has an 80% chance to kill 20 T5 6++/6+++ Boyz( or less ).

10 remaining Goffs with PK and no Waaagh and exploding 5s have a 47% chance to kill all 8 Stalkers - 5 or more is 93%. 10 such Boyz with Waaagh kill 8 Stalkers 86% of the time ( which means they can kill more than 8 pretty easily ) - and that's without considering Warboss +1 to hit.

18 Rangers with BS2 and rr wounds and hits of 1 kill up to 11 80% of the time:
( chart shows % chance to kill X Boyz - pink line is the cumulative from that point forward )


He has two of those. Disintegrators can kill 2.5 each. So all of his shooting kills MAYBE a mob a turn. MAYBE. Once it comes down to melee engagement a Waaagh and bad placement will wipe out the Ruststalkers pretty quickly.

The biggest problem you are leaving out here is that turn 1 those boyz are 18' from their enemy. Even with WAAAGH and a slightly above average advance roll of 4' they are still an 9' charge from the enemy lines if your opponent deployed on the line. What this translates to is likely a turn 1 failed charge at best. And realistically it translates to taking the bulk of enemy anti-infantry firepower to the face, and at this point, likely in double tap range. Not something you really want to do. Those stalkers on the other hand are lightning fast by comparison and can get a first turn charge off, they can also deploy back and wait for the enemy to advance and complete both a screen AND a Beta strike threat.

 the_scotsman wrote:

Sure. But, and just to be clear here, I'm not arguing that ork boyz have a place INTERNALLY in the ork codex as there are several units that outclass them, but...
...you do have to acknowledge that Kroot have access to almost zero -
-buffs
-subfaction bonuses (boyz have access to several which decrease the mobility gap, the firepower gap, increase the melee damage gap, etc)
-army-wide bonuses, namely Waaagh
-special weapon upgrades

except they do. They have a shaper which buffs them with +2 morale making them SM level morale, and it gives them re-roll 1s to hit in both ranged and CC. They can also receive buffs from the ethereal, warlord traits and a few strats. Overall, I would say Kroot have more bonuses that are meaningful then Boyz. Because Boyz have Kultures, none of which are competitive except Goff and Freeboota. 1 makes them better in CC, the other does basically nothing to them. The Army wide bonus is only if you take a normal waaagh which is/was rare until now, and its advance+charge and +1 attack. Which is good. And Special weapon upgrades...Yep, kroot don't have the option of wasting points on useless weapon upgrades like boyz do. Nothing screams points efficiency like giving a CC Ork boyz unit (the only way to run boyz in a competitive game) a Big shoota....

 the_scotsman wrote:
Do I think boyz are probably in need of a buff? Yes. a 1pt drop and some return of an ability (maybe even a defensive ability, horror of horrors) to incentivize taking more than 10 would be what id go with.

but we are being a bit silly in this thread. Kroot and Boyz arent intended to do the same thing. 120 kroot surging forward towards enemy lines and trying to deal and soak damage in enemy lines are going to fail, just as hard if not harder than boyz. Theyre totally reliant on hiding in Light Cover to stay difficult to kill, which means theyll probably wind up being fairly handy-dandy screen/action monkey units.

The difference is that Boyz are a direct tax unit with no purpose. They aren't significantly more durable in cover, they aren't a good screening force, and they have no abilities which make them useful except that they are troops. Generally speaking, the only time they are taken in lists is as a 1 off troop tax. IN comparison Kroot are taken more in just hte recent tournaments.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Point for point is good for surface level analysis and I think that's where people get too caught up. The Hammerhead has some great math behind it, but at the Beachhead Brawl this past weekend there wasn't a single HH in any list ( I think one Longstrike ) -- because the math doesn't tell the whole story when you factor in the big picture including how missions operate.

Kroot were pretty rare as well aside from a guy who went Dal - triple SS and 130 Kroot. His record was WLLWWDL. Lost to Knights, Custodes, and Admech. Draw was against Harlies&DE soup. The wins were all against marines.

I guess you are going to completely ignore the #1 list that WON the Beachhead Brawl with an undefeated list which included 2 units of Carnivores and 1 unit of Kroot Hounds? Yeah they aren't spammed ridiculously, but they were taken in lieu of Tau Firewarriors. The two lists that went undefeated and took 1st and 2nd place at the BHB were both Tau and both HEAVILY featured Battlesuits. Which means those Kroot are going to be little more than action monkeys and mid field objective grabbers, while the opponent is busy dealing with Battlesuits running rampant all over the battlefield, especially since they can now shoot in CC.

To put it more bluntly. MSU kroot carnivore squads, with a 7' more before the game starts and the ability to turn 1 be on midfield objectives synergize significantly more with the Tau style of play than boyz currently do with orkz.

***Side Note*** Vespids made an appearance in both lists as well. It appears GW finally figured out how to make the Tau auxiliaries work.

The biggest problem you are leaving out here is that turn 1 those boyz are 18' from their enemy. Even with WAAAGH and a slightly above average advance roll of 4' they are still an 9' charge from the enemy lines if your opponent deployed on the line. What this translates to is likely a turn 1 failed charge at best. And realistically it translates to taking the bulk of enemy anti-infantry firepower to the face, and at this point, likely in double tap range. Not something you really want to do. Those stalkers on the other hand are lightning fast by comparison and can get a first turn charge off, they can also deploy back and wait for the enemy to advance and complete both a screen AND a Beta strike threat.

I'm not suggesting people use this as the basis for a list. It's just a thought exercise on old morale and there's so many other variables to consider in making such a thing work.

I guess you are going to completely ignore the #1 list that WON the Beachhead Brawl with an undefeated list which included 2 units of Carnivores and 1 unit of Kroot Hounds? Yeah they aren't spammed ridiculously, but they were taken in lieu of Tau Firewarriors. The two lists that went undefeated and took 1st and 2nd place at the BHB were both Tau and both HEAVILY featured Battlesuits. Which means those Kroot are going to be little more than action monkeys and mid field objective grabbers, while the opponent is busy dealing with Battlesuits running rampant all over the battlefield, especially since they can now shoot in CC.

To put it more bluntly. MSU kroot carnivore squads, with a 7' more before the game starts and the ability to turn 1 be on midfield objectives synergize significantly more with the Tau style of play than boyz currently do with orkz.

***Side Note*** Vespids made an appearance in both lists as well. It appears GW finally figured out how to make the Tau auxiliaries work.

Definitely not ignoring those Kroot, but they don't seem any more prevalent than Boyz in recent tournaments ( except for the guy who went bananas with Kroot ). To me their existence in that list doesn't answer the thread's question in a meaningful manner.

The comparison semper did gets even worse for 9th boyz when the leadership is considered, as well as the loss of unstoppable green tide, giving you ~20-22 boyz from my experience for free.

What's the point to argue, I think it's a consensus right now:
Kroot are a good option in an army with a bunch of good troop choices. Take them when needed.
Boyz are a bad option in an army with a bunch of bad troop choices. Try to avoid taking them.

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point to argue, I think it's a consensus right now:
Kroot are a good option in an army with a bunch of good troop choices. Take them when needed.
Boyz are a bad option in an army with a bunch of bad troop choices. Try to avoid taking them.

Daedalus disagrees.

Hecaton wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point to argue, I think it's a consensus right now:
Kroot are a good option in an army with a bunch of good troop choices. Take them when needed.
Boyz are a bad option in an army with a bunch of bad troop choices. Try to avoid taking them.

Daedalus disagrees.

It's my job!

I think I can get a TTS game in tomorrow and we'll see how it goes ( if there's someone ready to go between kid drop-off and supper ). I'll probably be playing either T'au or Custodes based on how TTS goes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point to argue, I think it's a consensus right now:
Kroot are a good option in an army with a bunch of good troop choices. Take them when needed.
Boyz are a bad option in an army with a bunch of bad troop choices. Try to avoid taking them.

Daedalus disagrees.

It's my job!

It's one thing to think outside the box, but it's a whole other can of worms to not only just disagree for the sake of it but also deny responsibility from GW for their garbage rules creation.

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point to argue, I think it's a consensus right now:
Kroot are a good option in an army with a bunch of good troop choices. Take them when needed.
Boyz are a bad option in an army with a bunch of bad troop choices. Try to avoid taking them.

I'd say boys are a bad option in an army with exclusively bad troops choices

And I say that as someone that runs two units of trukk boys.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
It's one thing to think outside the box, but it's a whole other can of worms to not only just disagree for the sake of it but also deny responsibility from GW for their garbage rules creation.

I definitely don't disagree for the sake of it. I would agree that Boyz aren't solid, but I don't think they suffer from garbage rules creation.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
It's one thing to think outside the box, but it's a whole other can of worms to not only just disagree for the sake of it but also deny responsibility from GW for their garbage rules creation.

I definitely don't disagree for the sake of it. I would agree that Boyz aren't solid, but I don't think they suffer from garbage rules creation.

I think GW was partially hedging against complaints about orks going to T5 and not wanting them to be too strong, and then just forgot the reason orks had boss pole and mob rule to start with. I appreciate them being willing to play aroudn with survival on units, I think 2 wound marines was good for the game just liek i think T5 orks make sense, they just points costed one correctly and gave them good strategems and mechanics (marines) and the other not so much (bad mechanics to eb useable and to many points)

on kroot, my all kroot army is now up to 40 kroot, 3 hounds and 5 shapers, working those prints in between other 3d printing projects, cannot wait to field 2k points of all kroot

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I would agree that Boyz aren't solid, but I don't think they suffer from garbage rules creation.

4th edition.

Tac Marine 15pts
Ork boy 6pts.

To kill 1 Marine with bolters took 9 Bolter shots at BS3+
To kill 1 Ork boy took 3 Bolter shots.

Took 3 Boyz in CC to kill 1 Marines (12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds 1 dead Marine)

Fast forward to 9th edition: Marines now have double their ROF normally, they gained a plethora of special rules which allow them to gain AP depending on phase and of course, most notably they got a 2nd wound. Stratagem wise they have a bunch.

Ork boyz: They are now Base S4 as opposed to being S3(4) Furious Charge and T5 . They lost +1 attack, they lost movement, and their dmg output actually went down.

Tac Marine 18pts
Ork Boy 9pts.

To kill 1 Marine now takes 18 bolter shots at BS3
To kill 1 Ork boy now takes 5.4 bolter shots

Takes 4 Boyz in CC to kill 1 Marine (12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1 Dead Marine)

In 4th the math was 18pts of Boyz to kill 15 of Marines
In 9th the math is 36pts of Boyz to kill 18 of Marines.

My belief is that Ork boyz took it to the face in 9th as far as rules go, because at the tail end of 8th the "competitive" ork list was Ghaz Green tide with 90-120 boyz. The problem being that the list wasn't competitive because Boyz were good, it was competitive because nobody was bringing anti-horde firepower and it ran counter meta.

So going back to your quote

I don't think they suffer from garbage rules creation.

Well lets see, in 8th they were good because nobody brought weapons that worked against them. In 9th GW bumped them up to 9ppm but gave them T5, they then stripped all their stratagem support, nerfed the KFF to be 50% less effective while also costing significantly more, nerfed Weirdboyz so they wouldn't be handing out buffs like they were in 8th and then stripped or destroyed their inherent rules.

Ere we go: lost re-roll 1 or both dice
Mob Rule: Went from Model count = LD to If another mob is nearby and has more than 50% of its models alive you don't take attrition tests on 2s just on 1s.
Completely got rid of the +1 attack for 20+ models.

So yes Ork boyz are absolutely suffering from BAD RULES WRITING for them specifically. GW's intent was pretty clear from the get go "Get rid of hordes" The problem is that GW nerfed boyz so hard that they aren't even worth taking in smaller units. Why? Because their rules teams do not inherently understand orkz, and figured T5 and -1AP on choppas would be good enough compensation for utterly destroying THE most iconic Ork unit.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I think GW was partially hedging against complaints about orks going to T5 and not wanting them to be too strong, and then just forgot the reason orks had boss pole and mob rule to start with. I appreciate them being willing to play aroudn with survival on units, I think 2 wound marines was good for the game just liek i think T5 orks make sense, they just points costed one correctly and gave them good strategems and mechanics (marines) and the other not so much (bad mechanics to eb useable and to many points)

I agree, they simply changed too much at once and ended up with broken boyz.

SemperMortis wrote:
Well lets see, in 8th they were good because nobody brought weapons that worked against them. In 9th GW bumped them up to 9ppm but gave them T5, they then stripped all their stratagem support, nerfed the KFF to be 50% less effective while also costing significantly more, nerfed Weirdboyz so they wouldn't be handing out buffs like they were in 8th and then stripped or destroyed their inherent rules.

Ere we go: lost re-roll 1 or both dice
Mob Rule: Went from Model count = LD to If another mob is nearby and has more than 50% of its models alive you don't take attrition tests on 2s just on 1s.
Completely got rid of the +1 attack for 20+ models.

So yes Ork boyz are absolutely suffering from BAD RULES WRITING for them specifically. GW's intent was pretty clear from the get go "Get rid of hordes" The problem is that GW nerfed boyz so hard that they aren't even worth taking in smaller units. Why? Because their rules teams do not inherently understand orkz, and figured T5 and -1AP on choppas would be good enough compensation for utterly destroying THE most iconic Ork unit.

Hang on though.

Warboss now gives out +1 to hit. That +1 matters when it's 80 attacks instead of say 20 for MANZ - especially if you want to go take out something with an invulnerable save.
Warboss used to give advance and charge all the time. Now it's once per game, but you gained two turns of +1A - again a thing that increases in effectiveness the more models you have.

Morale used to be just straight up lose models, which could happen back then unless you had multiple mobs, which means it was all in or nothing. If you lost 20 then you LD was 10 and you'd still lose every other model in that unit unless you have a 20+ mob nearby. NOW if you lose 20 with a 10 man nearby then you lose 1 and then 1 or 2 more.

Warboss used to break heads, which is the same as the strat, but now the strat is "bad".

Goffs went from 6s give you another attack to 6s give you a hit on top of +1S.

KFF may have ben halved, but it works in melee and covers more than one mob.

They lost +1A for 20 models, but gained an AP, which is phenomenally better. Also note Waaagh.

So 20 Goffs from the past v MEQ with a Warboss nearby --

((80 * .167 * .666) + (80 * .666)) * .5 * .333 = 10.4

And 20 now --

((80 * .167) + (80 * .833)) * .666 * .5 = 26.6

Do you honestly think it'd be ok for Boyz to have the same morale when they can produce almost three times the output under the same conditions? Christ you could fight twice with the old Boyz and STILL be behind.

And to make sure I did the math right -- those two scenarios charted -- the old goff boyz at just about their best are the worst possible outcome for new goff boyz. You absolutely cannot expect to have these rules alongside the old ones. And we didn't even get to exploding 5s....

And because I'll catch flakk - the charts show % chance to kill X MEQ.

Goffs with a Warboss nearby and +1 attack take 1.5 boys to kill a single marine on the charge.
It’s two full boys if they lack the attack boost.

And +1 to-hit matters MORE for MANz than for boys-going from 3+ to 2+ isn’t as impactful as 4+ to 3+.