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EviscerationPlague wrote:
Thank you for posting that first because I wasn't sure why Daed chose to use twin Frags. Weren't Burst Cannons agreed to be better anyway?

AFP's are used primarily because they are an ignore LOS weapon. Strike and fade can only be used on one unit a turn. It makes sense therefore to put all your direct fire weapons on the unit you intend to pop the strat on, and keep the other one out of LOS and still be able to shoot. I would expect that a target lock would be used with the AFP's to counter cover save bonuses. Burst cannons are shorter ranged, and trade an AP for a pip in strength, require LOS, and always get 6 shots. personally i would prefer to use AFP's on the crisis suits for the additional utility and range. If I was going to take anything with a burst cannon, it would be stealth suits, and/or take a coldstar with the HOBC, the DW-02, and perhaps with a splash of 2 AFP's or something like that.

Now, as to the OP, obsec is a really useful ability and troops are worth taking for that alone. I won't take kroot for their offensive output, either ranged or CC (its fairly good, but you know, not awesome. even if they are arguably undercosted, you don't take kroot for killing), but for their speed. pregame move, M7 + Advance means you can get them to where they need to be very quickly to contest objectives. there is no guarantee that there will be cover around so getting a 4+ in cover is nice to have, but cannot be counted on. their main downside is that they have to walk where they are going, and there are other negatives as well such as being almost totally without any synergy with a lot of the Tau book. and being squishy, really squishy

Their main advantage is that they are the cheapest troops unit, 3 units will let you fill out a battalion, and save you 60 points over strike teams, 60 points is a crisis suit loaded up. and strike teams aren't that much more surviveable than kroot. I'm not sure how many strikes you will see (in tournaments) outside of a breacher rush style list.

As to whether Kroot are better or not, there has been some quite in depth analysis. Kroot are (outside of cover, which is not guaranteed) faster and cheaper, Boyz are tougher, killier in taking points and also have more synergy with their codex. I guess it depends on what you want them to do. If boyz were in the Tau codex instead of Kroot, I'd take strikes over boyz, unless of course i was doing a themed list

Hecaton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You can't have morale immune Boyz with the current book rules. The mission set highly values units that are obsec and are hard to remove.

Why not? Tyranids have morale-immune hordes of cheap troops and they aren't tearing it up (except with Crusher Stampede, and that explicitly doesn't do that.)

You have not presented sufficient evidence for this line of reasoning but you keep insisting that it's true.

This is the last reply I'm going to make and then you guys can have at it.

1) Old book
2) Those nids are T3 with a t-shirt save. They can't get both a FNP ( Levi ) and an Invuln ( Custom Fleet). Adaptive ( ignore AP1/2 ) is only ever going to be a single unit.
3) Four bolt rifle shots kill 1.1 with either invuln or FNP and a ( targetable ) vthrope. Same shots at 6++/6+++ boy is 0.6 so they die more than twice as quickly.
4) Two S3 swings at AP0 and rr1s to hit and maybe rr1s to wound at 20+ that hit on 4s versus 4 S5 AP1 exploding 6s that hit on 2s/3s means they'll kill almost nothing that is a legitimate threat
5) Nobody wants to paint that gak

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You can't have morale immune Boyz with the current book rules. The mission set highly values units that are obsec and are hard to remove.

Why not? Tyranids have morale-immune hordes of cheap troops and they aren't tearing it up (except with Crusher Stampede, and that explicitly doesn't do that.)

You have not presented sufficient evidence for this line of reasoning but you keep insisting that it's true.

This is the last reply I'm going to make and then you guys can have at it.

1) Old book
2) Those nids are T3 with a t-shirt save. They can't get both a FNP ( Levi ) and an Invuln ( Custom Fleet). Adaptive ( ignore AP1/2 ) is only ever going to be a single unit.
3) Four bolt rifle shots kill 1.5 with either invuln or FNP. Same shots at 6++/6+++ boy is 0.6 so they die almost three times as quickly.
4) Two S3 swings at AP0 and rr1s to hit and maybe rr1s to wound at 20+ that hit on 4s versus 4 S5 AP1 exploding 6s that hit on 2s/3s means they'll kill almost nothing that is a legitimate threat

It's time to get out. This is "boyz are bad" thread 3 and I doubt it'll be the last. We know boyz aren't winning tournaments, we know morale is hurting them lots and we know points adjustments won't sort it. What's left is an endless argument of "they're not that bad" vs "they're that bad". Which is all subjective from here as it falls into the casual play level.

Just let it die here and let it be the last "but boyz are bad" thread.

T3 but also faster and cheaper. We shall see how their abilities will be implemented in their 9th edition books.

Without a tool to severely reduce losses to morale, large blobs of boyz will always be useless, unless they become really really cheap. But in that case they'd be undercosted and corrected ASAP.

Since 3rd edition large units of boyz only existed if either boyz were extremely cheap (in 8th easy/cheap access to invuln, FNP, immunity to morale, respawn and damage bonuses made them cheap even if their naked baseline wasn't) or the rest of the book was trash, sometimes both. Greentides always existed to cheat meta, if they can't boyz won't be taken in large numbers, simple.

Just lurking (barely that) these days cuz I've been busy AF but . . .

1:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

5) Nobody wants to paint that gak

I banged out 120 gants in October. 10/10 would do again.

2. Daedelus's graph made me spit coffee. Nice play

 Insectum7 wrote:
I banged out 120 gants in October. 10/10 would do again

Those look fantastic. Did you go contrast?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
1) Old book

Actually irrelevant. It's still being played.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
2) Those nids are T3 with a t-shirt save. They can't get both a FNP ( Levi ) and an Invuln ( Custom Fleet). Adaptive ( ignore AP1/2 ) is only ever going to be a single unit.

So what's their point for point durability here?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
3) Four bolt rifle shots kill 1.1 with either invuln or FNP and a ( targetable ) vthrope. Same shots at 6++/6+++ boy is 0.6 so they die more than twice as quickly.

Except you're not paying extra points for the FNP, and you are for the 6++/6+++, so that throws the math off significantly.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
4) Two S3 swings at AP0 and rr1s to hit and maybe rr1s to wound at 20+ that hit on 4s versus 4 S5 AP1 exploding 6s that hit on 2s/3s means they'll kill almost nothing that is a legitimate threat

That's not the point. You still haven't shown that orks who are flat out immune to morale would be busted.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
5) Nobody wants to paint that gak

So... don't play orks. Deal with it.

Hecaton wrote:
Except you're not paying extra points for the FNP, and you are for the 6++/6+++, so that throws the math off significantly.

One caveat-Leviathan only gets FNP in Synapse range, so they DO need to pay for the FNP.

The invuln is just a subfaction trait, though.

Is anyone even asking for boys to be completely immune to morale? I think the 8th edition Mob Rule is fine enough fix on the morale front.

Still lack stratagems, synergies, and mobility.

Kroot at least have mobility.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Except you're not paying extra points for the FNP, and you are for the 6++/6+++, so that throws the math off significantly.

One caveat-Leviathan only gets FNP in Synapse range, so they DO need to pay for the FNP.

The invuln is just a subfaction trait, though.

Well yes but you're paying points for Synapse anyway so you don't flee.

Hecaton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Except you're not paying extra points for the FNP, and you are for the 6++/6+++, so that throws the math off significantly.

One caveat-Leviathan only gets FNP in Synapse range, so they DO need to pay for the FNP.

The invuln is just a subfaction trait, though.

Well yes but you're paying points for Synapse anyway so you don't flee.

Yeah-I definitely agree Synapse is more valuable than a Dok, even without Leviathan, but it's still something to be noted.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I banged out 120 gants in October. 10/10 would do again

Those look fantastic. Did you go contrast?

Nope! Old school drybrush and washes. Haven't really integrated any contrast paints into my workflows yet. (And I'll probably use the Army Painter ones rather than GW)

Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Is anyone even asking for boys to be completely immune to morale? I think the 8th edition Mob Rule is fine enough fix on the morale front.

Still lack stratagems, synergies, and mobility.

Kroot at least have mobility.

The 8th ed mob rule is nigh on morale immune, you need a blob to be isolated and cut down to 17 before you have any real chance of losing models. After that using the old ead banging routine you'd then lose a max of 4 to morale.

Edit: but yes morale is touted as one of 3 big issues they have.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I banged out 120 gants in October. 10/10 would do again

Those look fantastic. Did you go contrast?

Nope! Old school drybrush and washes. Haven't really integrated any contrast paints into my workflows yet. (And I'll probably use the Army Painter ones rather than GW)

Damn. Bravo. That's a gak ton of work.

 Mr Raptor wrote:
Ork boyz have lost their moral immunity, they've lost damage, resistance, rule cover, strat cover, ect... while about every other new codices have had only buffs on their troops.

Why would orks be problematic, if not even decent if you give them back something that wasn't even making them broken an extension ago when things weaker in general ?

Maybe cause they made 2 new boys kits. One - a reskin for regular boyz and one - primorks. It's hard to find some business logic here but that's kind of what was happening with primaris Marines. They used an overly cautious approach. If you break down the ork new kits you'll end up with something like this:

Buggies - weak rules at start. 1.5 years pass and they become amazing. Than get nerfed down to simply good.

Naughty - extremely weak rules at start. A year passes and they see some buffs and play. Than they get nerfed
to oblivion essentially becoming much worse knights.

Flash gitz - have always been abysmal. Got new models and significant rule improvements making them go to just awful. Than another set of rule improvements making them simply too bad to take but not abysmal. At least that's the best they've been.

Ghaz + Makari - underwhelming at start. Than they got a buff yet remain underwhelming. But occasionally saw play due to some interactions with the new killings and goff pressure (before the nerf to this list). Going back to underwhelming but occasionally useful in niche cases.

Squighogs and krusher nobz - looked decent on paper but happened to be underwhelming due to how the game is played. Are not seen in competitive play.

Squigosaurs - got powerful rules, were often seen in top lists, got nerfed, are probably still fieldable but are very rarely used in top lists right now for reasons I'm not fully aware of. I guess, it's just that goff pressure all ready has a plephora of expensive mellee units that synergise better and speed freak lists can't take anything other than speedfreaks.

Named squigosaur - was promising during the pre-release teases but he's locked to snakebites and didn't see much play in competitive meta even when it was ok to run multiple clans. He's simply worse than generic squigosaurs. Now he got a price hike for some reason and you can't mix clans...so, nerfed to oblivion. Sorry if you bought him...nice model tho.

Killrig - great st start, got nerfed became a bit too pricey but still good in goff lists.

Hunter rig - underwhelming has no place in any lists.

Now, finally, new boyz kits - a lot of people jumped out of their pants after seeing t5 and ap1 choppas but than the loss of a lot of other stuff made boyz an overpruced tax unit with only 1 useable option of becoming trukk boyz. Still not something to build a list around. Maybe, if they were 1/3 cheaper.

Primorks - have 1 decent use in goff pressure lists riding killrigs that got nerfed but still useable, I guess.

... .
Now, why have I written all this. Do you see a trend with ork releases?.. You sure?.. Cause i don't. I have no idea if there's even any plan. Most likely it's all just random stuff.

I think Boyz could be immune to morale and it wouldn't make a huge difference.

Its the same argument for why mass carpet Termagants doesn't work. They die more or less to anything - and consequently are not a meta concern. I mean that's not quite true - devilgaunts definitely have a place - but that's because of their incredible damage they put out with full buffs (that probably won't be in a codex). They then immediately die, usually reasonably efficiently.

The problem with comparisons to Wracks is that they get things base. You don't need a KFF trying to provide its small aura all over the place for a 6++ - I just get it (and, eventually, a 5++). Tempo matters - I don't think even just a near blanket 5++ for a turn is bad - but its not really the same.
Even more strongly, I don't need a Painboy or something providing me with a 6+++ if I essentially stand on him - I get a 5+++ for showing up. Artists of Flesh helps against D2-and we are now potentially seeing a move over to Prophets of Flesh - which helps against seemingly ever more plentiful S5-7 attacks. Its unfortunate that Snakebites has the same limitation - because with T5 anyway so it doesn't help versus S5.

Further to it Wracks are faster. M7" base, advance and charge from turn 2 rather than just for one turn. Rerolls on charges obviously helps the Boyz - but it probably works out about 2" anyway - and you can CP reroll a failed charge if needed.

And its this combination I think is the problem.
Because really - while there's an equally important issue of having good worthwhile characters (which by contrast DE have in spades) - you could run a list with say 10 15-16 strong Boyz mobs. Morale may be an issue but I'm not hugely convinced. As you say no one worries about Morale with Thin City and they are only Ld8 versus Ld7 on the Boyz.

But... the result I just think is a list which is easier to kill and less likely to get where it needs to be. As you say Goffs should hit harder vs most targets - but units that don't connect do no damage.

As an edit.

A big issue in the Boyz saga is that going from T4 to T5 hasn't mattered as much as it probably should, because S5 is increasingly the new S4. Those units which still deal S4 attacks usually have rerolls to wound (either 1s or in total), or deal a bazillion attacks such that you will inevitably get some 5s. If Boyz today were 7 points and T4 I'm not sure they'd be worse. They'd possibly be better.

Tyel wrote:
S5 is increasingly the new S4.

I'm not seeing that. More AP, yes, but not more strength on the volume fire ranged weapons.

I will grant some truth to that on melee weapons though.

Boyz' issues seem to be mechanics of 9th based (the 1/2 inch rule and morale). Honestly they should be 1 point cheaper for what they are--I was surprised to see their points in the new codex.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Is anyone even asking for boys to be completely immune to morale? I think the 8th edition Mob Rule is fine enough fix on the morale front.

Still lack stratagems, synergies, and mobility.

Kroot at least have mobility.

No, we're asking about immunity under some circumstances, like 8th edition mob rule. Or, if not total immunity, an effective tool to reduce the casualties to morale.

 Blackie wrote:

Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Is anyone even asking for boys to be completely immune to morale? I think the 8th edition Mob Rule is fine enough fix on the morale front.

Still lack stratagems, synergies, and mobility.

Kroot at least have mobility.

No, we're asking about immunity under some circumstances, like 8th edition mob rule. Or, if not total immunity, an effective tool to reduce the casualties to morale.

Some sort of aura or command phase ability that halves the number of models counted toward morale would be pretty good. Even if it's on just one unit.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
[
Anyway, whatever. I'm done. You guys win.

Still not an admittance of being wrong

Can you blame him? Most of the replies he gets are people making fun of him, not arguing with him. He had one person disputing whatever chart it was with concrete points about what was being taken and if it was normal or skew. He had how many people taking potshots when he didn't add a chart telling him he needed one (with nothing else on point) He may or may not have been inaccurate - I tuned out when I saw where everything was heading - but he wasn't the one in the wrong.

 Mr Raptor wrote:
Ork boyz have lost their moral immunity

Au contraire - they're just as amoral as they ever were.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr Raptor wrote:
Ork boyz have lost their moral immunity

Au contraire - they're just as amoral as they ever were.

Are you implying that Gork and/or Mork aren't the font from which all morality springs?

Breton wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
[
Anyway, whatever. I'm done. You guys win.

Still not an admittance of being wrong

Can you blame him? Most of the replies he gets are people making fun of him, not arguing with him. He had one person disputing whatever chart it was with concrete points about what was being taken and if it was normal or skew. He had how many people taking potshots when he didn't add a chart telling him he needed one (with nothing else on point) He may or may not have been inaccurate - I tuned out when I saw where everything was heading - but he wasn't the one in the wrong.

You'd have a point if he argued the points made, but instead purposely avoided doing so. He was just being contrary for the sake of it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Wow.
You lost the mob bonus, because exploding 5/6s with 5 AP1 attacks would be absolutely insane -- 30 Boyz would smoke a Castellan in one turn ( and they're not far off presently ) meaning smaller units are capable of cleaning up pretty serious threats.

30 boyz, at best, and I mean absolutely best, you would get 16-20 boyz into CC, lets assume 20 to make you happy. Lets say you popped the strat to get exploding 5s, lets further say its a waaagh turn and lets further say we still get +1 attack for 20+ models and lets FURTHER say all 30 boyz somehow made it into CC, or at least 21 of them survived to this point.

20 boyz with 2 attacks base, +1 for choppa, waaagh and +20 is 6 attacks each, thats 120 attacks, thats 120 hits, thats 40 wounds, at -1AP thats 20dmg.

So as Jid pointed out, if the starts aligned and all of the above things went right you could ALMOST kill a castellan in CC. Fun fact though is that this would never happen because boyz can't do half of that dmg to a knight because they will never get across the board in the first place.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

If Boyz were morale immune they'd be carting around KFF and painboys. But you're telling me that Thin City can walk around with fewer attacks, morale vulnerability and T4 most of the time, but that morale immune Boyz with 6++/6+++ and a stronger melee profile couldn't do well?
And that 10 Goffs with a PK, Waaagh, +1 to hit, and exploding 6s averages three battlesuits and they're not killy enough?

1: No they wouldn't because spending that much on a painboy and that much on a KFF big mek ISN'T WORTH IT Also, the reason those DE guys work is because they have significantly more benefits than the orkz boyz do, and you have already tried in other threads to say that Wracks aren't as good as boyz but were soundly defeated by basic logic.

10 goffs, with a PK Nob (Assuming 9 boyz 1 nob) and +1 to hit...thats a 90pt warboss btw and a once per game buff. So no other buffs? Alright, so thats a 100pt unit buffed by a 90pt character, the aforementioned once per game buff and this is how the dmg works out.

9 boyz is 36 attacks, at +1 to hit that is 36 hits (exploding 6s), 36 hits at S5 = 18 wounds, against a 3+ save that is 9dmg. Nob swings and does 4 attacks, 3.3 hits, 2.2 wounds and 1.8 go through for 3.7dmg. Grand total of 12.7dmg, just enough to kill 3 Suits.....unless of course those battlesuits took drones...which ...i mean, they wouldn't do that right? I mean, we are just going to ignore those because no tau player would take drones with their suits right? Its not like that Tau player would just Tank ALL of that dmg against their drones and leave their suits completely free to unload on the orkz...that wouldn't happen right? You constantly get accused of making up scenarios and here is a great example. You just completely glossed over their inability to even get into CC with those Suits, surviving multiple turns walking across the board, overwatch doesn't happen, and somehow those boyz also have a Warboss nearby to buff them specifically. Christ bud.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Old mob rule and 180 boyz is effectively immune to morale and you damn well know that.

180 boyz is now 1,620pts without any buffs to speak of. Also, they aren't immune to morale, they were FUNCTIONALLY immune to morale back in the day because you couldn't whittle down multiple mobz you had to FOCUS fire 1 because of "Endless Green Tide" without that stratagem there isn't a reason not to pick off 2-3 mobz a turn to gut.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

11W with T5/6+ and no other defensive buffs for 90 points is not hard to remove. Continuing to claim otherwise is deceitful and misleading, especially since you have been called out on this multiple times.

Good thing I didn't fething claim that now, huh?

Except..you did, specifically you said...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You can't have morale immune Boyz with the current book rules. The mission set highly values units that are obsec and are hard to remove.

So you didn't say 11W with T5/6+ is hard to remove, you just heavily implied that by making boyz morale immune they would be hard to remove.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

It got nerfed, full stop. It does not cover more models, talking about space instead of models is deceitful and misleading.

Are you fething kidding me right now? You think you can fit more boyz FULLY within 9" as opposed to one model toe-in within 6"?
This is so fething absurd that I can't even.
I'm done. You guys have your piss and moan bs party.

I mean, i'll give you this, it definitely covers MORE stuff now since it just has to toe in touch to count the unit, but at the same time its 50% less effective (Went from 5++ to 6++) And of course its SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive. Big Mekz with KFF were dirt cheap in 8th, talking like 50-60pts (can't remember) they are now 85pts and they are absolute garbage rules/stats/strat wise. Not to mention, if 6++ was the best thing ever teamed with morale immune boyz then deathskullz would have been meta for Green tide in 8th since they literally had that baked into their stats.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Is anyone even asking for boys to be completely immune to morale? I think the 8th edition Mob Rule is fine enough fix on the morale front.

Still lack stratagems, synergies, and mobility.

Kroot at least have mobility.

No, they aren't lol. But the comparisons are still fun to work through. Keep in mind those kroot aren't just faster, they are NIGHT AND DAY faster. 7' base movement is +2 over boyz, they also get their pre-game 7' move, so turn 1 they can be 14' + Advance if they need it, from their deployment zone, while even with a BEST possible advance roll of a 6 those boyz are only 11. There is also the fact that those kroot can easily take a midfield objective while hiding in cover and be 1: durable 2: cheap and 3: capable of small minor harassing fire. Boyz can be "durable" ish if they can get into that cover, that is about it. Difference being it will take them 2 turns to accomplish what the Kroot did turn 1.

Dudeface wrote:

The 8th ed mob rule is nigh on morale immune, you need a blob to be isolated and cut down to 17 before you have any real chance of losing models. After that using the old ead banging routine you'd then lose a max of 4 to morale.

Edit: but yes morale is touted as one of 3 big issues they have.

...no, pretty much across the board...no.

An isolated blob of boyz started taking morale casualties around 13 casualties. 17 Models left means LD 17, -13 = 4, so on a 5+. If you want 14 casualties its LD16-14 = LD2, so you lost models on a 3+. Definitely not 17. At 17 you were LD13, you auto lost 4 and than +D6.

You also didn't need to isolate a mob, you just had to target the link unit first and then whittle them down, you rarely had 3 blobs of boyz within range of one another. The problem in 8th was that if you inflicted significant dmg to a boyz mob but didn't finish it off, I could just spend CP to auto-pass and then CP to regenerate the entire mob of boyz and place them in assault range that same turn. That is why you rarely if ever saw a mob being left alone after inflicting morale