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 Sim-Life wrote:

Dai wrote:
This is why i dislike miniwargaming battle reports, so they dont get out of camera view they basically just drop the dice.

It's a wonder batrep channels don't have dice towers considering most stop the dice from wandering out of camera shot and can be used easily with one hand.

The better ones have a box and dice camera. I feel bad for the guys who have to hold the camera then entire game.

Quasistellar wrote:

 Dolnikan wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

It's my personal philosophy that if I ever blame the dice I stopped trying to learn.

You've never played a game with these wretched pieces of crap, have you?

All bets are off with GW dice.

Which is a product I really don't understand. I mean, all the weird-looking almost illegible army specific dice. What's wrong with just using simple easy to distinguish dice (although I also have it with some DnD dice sets which have colours that just make them impossible to tell at a glance).

To be fair to GW, ever since they switched to whomever is making the Horus Heresy legion dice, their dice have been really good. I think all the dice post-necron codex have been simple pips with a symbol on the 6.

Their only "flaw" (aside from being a little more expensive than other custom dice) is that they have rounded corners and recessed pips, but that's just me being overly picky. Sharp corners cause better randomization on the roll, but that's assuming you're using a proper surface like felt or mousepad material--think casino dice at a craps table.

The dice before that were all pretty much just collectors' items, but they did look pretty sweet despite their lack of functionality.

The important part about the craps table is not just the surface but more so bouncing off the headboard. If your not doing that then you should not be using dice with sharp edges.

Most people I've played with roll dice on the table. If you're using dice with sharp corners, you're going to make people really unhappy as those bounce around towards terrain and figures. (And in some cases the table surface)

ccs wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

It's my personal philosophy that if I ever blame the dice I stopped trying to learn.

You've never played a game with these wretched pieces of crap, have you?

For thirty five bucks, they should come with two sixes on them and an extra side…

 jeff white wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

It's my personal philosophy that if I ever blame the dice I stopped trying to learn.

You've never played a game with these wretched pieces of crap, have you?

For thirty five bucks, they should come with two sixes on them and an extra side…

Well.... They technically don't have any 6's. Or 1s for that matter. One facing has a Necron head, the other has a Necron shield.
No explanation of wich is wich # wise.

Just as a note, i posted what i feel would be the correct changes to custodes in the tactics area of Custodes.

Yes i know trajann should actually be closer to 200pts, but that raises another issue so I tried for a different kind of fix.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Just as a note, i posted what i feel would be the correct changes to custodes in the tactics area of Custodes.

Yes i know trajann should actually be closer to 200pts, but that raises another issue so I tried for a different kind of fix.

Your "fix" seems to include as many buffs as nerfs. You want to add a wound to Agmatus bikers, double the damage of their bolt cannons, and cut their points, and add a wound to your terminators. And you want to further cut the price of the Orion, and kick the Ares' gun up to 12D and let it ignore invuls?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Just as a note, i posted what i feel would be the correct changes to custodes in the tactics area of Custodes.

Yes i know trajann should actually be closer to 200pts, but that raises another issue so I tried for a different kind of fix.

Hmm.
How about we just leave this type of work to the professionals at GW & you stick to your day job?

guess you guys dont know how to read or actually know what your looking at.

Agamatus bikes are currently only 4 wounds instead of the 5 on vertus which was probably an oversight. They also cost more than Vertus praetors and do alot less damage. They obviously need some kind of fix.


As for my ares changes, i gave an option of either giving it +1 shot on its main gun, or making it ONE shot at D12 ignore invuns. So either a reduced damage output with more reliabilty or more potential damage. Im not sure which is a better option but either is better than the current.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
guess you guys dont know how to read or actually know what your looking at.

Oh, we can read just fine, and we can see what you're trying to do....

Agamatus bikes are currently only 4 wounds instead of the 5 on vertus which was probably an oversight. They also cost more than Vertus praetors and do alot less damage. They obviously need some kind of fix.

You're right, there was an oversight that needs to be fixed: Vertus Paetors are too cheap. They need a price increase, not a decrease for the other bikes. Make the Paetors more expensive than the Agamatus, get some better internal balance going. The Praetors are already considered one of Custodes best units, if not the best. One of the reasons for that is they're too cheap for what they do. Making the Agamatus too cheap as well, doesn't fix anything.

As for my ares changes, i gave an option of either giving it +1 shot on its main gun, or making it ONE shot at D12 ignore invuns. So either a reduced damage output with more reliabilty or more potential damage. Im not sure which is a better option but either is better than the current.

There's nothing to "fix". The Ares is fine. You already have the advantage of having your LoWs misappropriated in the FLYER FOC slot, dodging the disadvantages of LoWs. Stop trying to make your broken faction more broken.

The ares is easily overcosted comparing it to any other large centerpiece model in the 400+ range.

They dropped it by 50pts, which was fine, but its still far too unreliable for a 400pt model.

As for the whole misappropriated in the flyer slot thing, thats not as cut and dry as you make it.

With flyer's being limited to 2 max instead of 3 in a superheavy detachment, the only issue i see is that noone would ever want to spam ares since they just arent that good currently.

They need either more reliability, or more potential output to make them worth the price tag.

It's a good thing that this thread has moved on to the really important questions: What can GW do to make Custodes better?

im sure everyone has units they know need fixing in their own codex's.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The ares is easily overcosted comparing it to any other large centerpiece model in the 400+ range.

They dropped it by 50pts, which was fine, but its still far too unreliable for a 400pt model.

As for the whole misappropriated in the flyer slot thing, thats not as cut and dry as you make it.

With flyer's being limited to 2 max instead of 3 in a superheavy detachment, the only issue i see is that noone would ever want to spam ares since they just arent that good currently.

They need either more reliability, or more potential output to make them worth the price tag.

Overcosted?

400 PPM gets you 22 T8 3+ 5++ wounds, FLY, BS2, Hard To Hit, Hover Jet, MW dealing bombs on anything you happen to move over, D3 S14 AP-4 Dd3+6 Magna Blaze Cannon shots, two Heavy Blaze Cannons, and enough movement to hit anything on the table. It's an absolute steal compared to most other LoWs. And those stats should absolutely put it in the LoW FOC slot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry about your suggestions, I just find them funny. As ccs pointed out, you don't write the rules, so this won't be happening.

 Ordana wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:

 Dolnikan wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

It's my personal philosophy that if I ever blame the dice I stopped trying to learn.

You've never played a game with these wretched pieces of crap, have you?

All bets are off with GW dice.

Which is a product I really don't understand. I mean, all the weird-looking almost illegible army specific dice. What's wrong with just using simple easy to distinguish dice (although I also have it with some DnD dice sets which have colours that just make them impossible to tell at a glance).

To be fair to GW, ever since they switched to whomever is making the Horus Heresy legion dice, their dice have been really good. I think all the dice post-necron codex have been simple pips with a symbol on the 6.

Their only "flaw" (aside from being a little more expensive than other custom dice) is that they have rounded corners and recessed pips, but that's just me being overly picky. Sharp corners cause better randomization on the roll, but that's assuming you're using a proper surface like felt or mousepad material--think casino dice at a craps table.

The dice before that were all pretty much just collectors' items, but they did look pretty sweet despite their lack of functionality.

The important part about the craps table is not just the surface but more so bouncing off the headboard. If your not doing that then you should not be using dice with sharp edges.

I disagree; the dice should be as deadly as the setting. If they can't serve as fully functional caltrops they aren't sharp enough.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Just as a note, i posted what i feel would be the correct changes to custodes in the tactics area of Custodes.

Yes i know trajann should actually be closer to 200pts, but that raises another issue so I tried for a different kind of fix.

What changes are needed?

I thought the Custodes players were just using weighted dice?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I disagree; the dice should be as deadly as the setting. If they can't serve as fully functional caltrops they aren't sharp enough.

If you need caltrops, break out the classic d4, my friend.

As for the less practical GW dice - as the ones released during 9th seem usable, from memory (and from the AdMech set nearby), I'd say they're better used as trackers or markers than for rolling.

Ah the humble D4, the underused die. Well I use them all the time...as wound counters.

For rolling purposes, I prefer a 12-sided d4, as it'll actually roll.

For Home Alone purposes, give me the pyramid of death any day of the week...

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Just as a note, i posted what i feel would be the correct changes to custodes in the tactics area of Custodes.

Yes i know trajann should actually be closer to 200pts, but that raises another issue so I tried for a different kind of fix.

Yes, truly the way to fix Trajan is a whole extra 5 points to his cost, making him the same as Dante who is clearly equally powerful

I had thought all the Custodes players who can't see how busted their Codex is was a bit of a myth but I see I was wrong, they are alive and well as shown by Exhibit A here.

If you're going to fix Custodes from their current position they need significant points increases to bikes in general and salvo launchers specifically and Trajan at a bare minimum. Possibly also remove Core from bikes. Their strats also need looked at. Transhuman may be 1CP on <5 models for other armies but those armies aren't using T5, W3, 2+ 4++ models as the baseline for their units. EC needs looking at too. It's far too good and is pushing out basically every other sub-faction after people dabbled with Shadowkeepers for a bit before deciding EC was clearly the best.

The problem with Custodes is the fixes probably need to be multi-faceted, which makes getting them right much harder.

I mean, aside for those books that were not busted or were busted in reverse, most people claim that their faction is never busted and that it is the other ones that are or were just as bad.

I mean there were claims that DEs just need some times for people to adjust and "find ways of countering them". And when it was collectivlly found out that the way to counter them is to play just as busted army builds, and that the nerf to those builds catapulted DE back to the top, what people were posting was still mostly wait and see stuff.


The problem with any changes is that GW is reacting and countering metas which either no longer exist, or which were a problem in prior editions. Sometimes this gives us something like an over reaction codex in the form of necron, at other times it gives us something like the -1D on monsters with invs/fnp meta, and then the reaction to it in form of anti inv stuff. I assume in GWs mind every new player should not care, because they are too busy painting their first armies, and everyone else should just adapt by jumping to one of the multiple armies they have or if they don't have any good armies right now, play a different fun army from another of GW systems.


also the way GW over corrects is also rather bad. While I understand why something like ors or SoB needed changes, with GW much too often it ends with illegal armies or armies which maybe legal, after droping a unit or two, but which just don't work.

The custodes codex, the way GW fixs stuff, is unfixable. They would have to rewrite the whole thing, and they don't do stuff like that with new books. Now they can nerf custodes in to the ground, make them much weaker then other good armies. But IMO if people could live with months of DE, they will be able to live with custodes for some time too.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The ares is easily overcosted comparing it to any other large centerpiece model in the 400+ range.

They dropped it by 50pts, which was fine, but its still far too unreliable for a 400pt model.

Lolwut

Sung to the tune of Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start the Fire":

Morka-naut, Gorka-naut /
Magnus-man, Gilly-man /
Shadow-sword, Bane-blade /
Big Stomp-a, Mono-lith /

ad nauseum, I didn't have to stop there! And over half of those have 9e codexes!

Edit: okay a couple of those are more like 350 points, my point stands though

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The ares is easily overcosted comparing it to any other large centerpiece model in the 400+ range.

They dropped it by 50pts, which was fine, but its still far too unreliable for a 400pt model.

Morka-naut, Gorka-naut /
Magnus-man, Gilly-man /
Shadow-sword, Bane-blade /
Big Stomp-a, Mono-lith /

That's pretty good. I look forward to a GW parody video using that when they reveal the next super heavy.

The 40k fight club podcast, episode 5 has gone through the statistics of T'au and Custodes tournament results and they are pretty horrible for anyone not playing those two factions.
Going into a much stronger set of armies they're even putting the win rate of pre nerf, liquidiser spam, drukhari to shame.
Both sitting at a 70%+ winrate once you take out the mirror match/T'au Vs Custodes matches.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The ares is easily overcosted comparing it to any other large centerpiece model in the 400+ range.

They dropped it by 50pts, which was fine, but its still far too unreliable for a 400pt model.

Morka-naut, Gorka-naut /
Magnus-man, Gilly-man /
Shadow-sword, Bane-blade /
Big Stomp-a, Mono-lith /

That's pretty good. I look forward to a GW parody video using that when they reveal the next super heavy.

Leman Russes are now Lords of War

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The ares is easily overcosted comparing it to any other large centerpiece model in the 400+ range.

They dropped it by 50pts, which was fine, but its still far too unreliable for a 400pt model.

Morka-naut, Gorka-naut /
Magnus-man, Gilly-man /
Shadow-sword, Bane-blade /
Big Stomp-a, Mono-lith /

That's pretty good. I look forward to a GW parody video using that when they reveal the next super heavy.

Leman Russes are now Lords of War

Don't you put that evil on us!

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Leman Russes are now Lords of War

Don't give them ideas lol

 Eihnlazer wrote:
im sure everyone has units they know need fixing in their own codex's.

Which you are more than welcome to do...after a flat 30% nerf to all Custodes units. And the removal of the 4++ MW shrug on EC. You can have +1 leadership instead.

ERJAK wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
im sure everyone has units they know need fixing in their own codex's.

Which you are more than welcome to do...after a flat 30% nerf to all Custodes units. And the removal of the 4++ MW shrug on EC. You can have +1 leadership instead.

I am definitely biased against the MW shrug. It definitely screws internal balance of the book when they can also pick up other traits when they need to.

At the same time I know I can drop 9 to 12 MW on a whim and without it I could probably do really well against 3 mans. Maybe a 5+++ wound be fine? I dunno.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
im sure everyone has units they know need fixing in their own codex's.

Which you are more than welcome to do...after a flat 30% nerf to all Custodes units. And the removal of the 4++ MW shrug on EC. You can have +1 leadership instead.

I am definitely biased against the MW shrug. It definitely screws internal balance of the book when they can also pick up other traits when they need to.

At the same time I know I can drop 9 to 12 MW on a whim and without it I could probably do really well against 3 mans. Maybe a 5+++ wound be fine? I dunno.

GW is clearly comfortable with hard counters in the game. CA2022 exemplified this. The changes to Sisters in CA2022 and the Feb Balance slate have left them in a spot where if your opponent has more than 2 units that ignore LoS, you can pretty much just shake hands and go get an early lunch. According to your own stats from the other thread, AM have this same conundrum when they line up against astartes. Why shouldn't a Custodes player instantly lose when he lines up against Tsons?

So why should Custodes, whose weakness SHOULD be mortal wounds, be able to just go 'naw son, not weak to NOTHIN!' and declare themselves invulnerable? At this point, ALL mortal wound defense should be removed from Custodes. Did you line up against a Smite Spam army? Tough cookies. I had to play Tau smart missiles round one, you can deal with auto-loss games too.