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shocking a 90 point vehicle with -1 hit, 4++, transhuman on hits AND an amazing gun that does both anti tank and anti infantry taken in squadrons of 3 breaks the game.
Who could have seen this coming....
If a Ridgerunner is 80 points, how in the Four Armed Emperors name can a voidweaver be 90.
Increase Voidweavers by 30 points and you may well 'fix' the Harlequin army.
The Voidweaver is clearly head and shoulders over any comparable unit. 120 points might be getting a bit much on a 6 wound frame - but the firepower is broken given the flexibility, fly, Harlequin defences etc. I feel like they just forgot it also has 2 shuriken cannons.
But then I suspect this is because they decided Starweavers should only be 80 points. At that price they are the best transports in the game. I think they could be 90.
Its the usual debate really - the same applies to Custodes and Tau. There's nerfs to bring them down to say a 60% win rate (i.e. still top but not so clearly broken) and nerfs to 50%/where the bulk of books are.
Tyel wrote: The Voidweaver is clearly head and shoulders over any comparable unit. 120 points might be getting a bit much on a 6 wound frame - but the firepower is broken given the flexibility, fly, Harlequin defences etc. I feel like they just forgot it also has 2 shuriken cannons.
But then I suspect this is because they decided Starweavers should only be 80 points. At that price they are the best transports in the game. I think they could be 90.
Its the usual debate really - the same applies to Custodes and Tau. There's nerfs to bring them down to say a 60% win rate (i.e. still top but not so clearly broken) and nerfs to 50%/where the bulk of books are.
Starweaver 80pts
M16, auto 6' advance, T5 6W 4+ save/invuln -1 to hit, no re-rolls. BS3+ 6 S6 -1AP 2dmg shuriken shots.
Trukk 70pts
M12, T6 10W 4+ save/NO invuln, BS5+ 3 S5 0AP 1dmg shots. (Ramshackle -1dmg on S7 and below).
Against S7 and below multi-dmg weapons the Trukk is definitely more durable. As soon as you start getting into S8+ it swings to the Starweaver. As far as dmg output...its totally one sided. A trukk does 3 shots, 1 hit 0.6 wounds and 0.2 dmg to a Marine. The Starweaver does 6 shots, 4 hits, 2.66 wounds for 1.33 failed saves for 2.66dmg to a Marine...or 13x more dmg
also...somehow the Starweaver is better in CC than the trukk....figure that out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Put it this way, the new Shuriken Cannon is equivalent to a heavy bolter, but its significantly better. S6 as opposed to S5 and of course its got the Shuriken key word so 6s to wound are AP-3.
So a heavy bolter is a 10pt upgrade right now. I would argue that with those rules the Shuriken cannon is under priced at 10pts but lets use that as a metric.
The Voidweaver has 2 of them, so 20pts, its main gun is easily equivalent to a duel lascannon, and at S12...its clearly better. So lets say its 10pts more expensive so 30pts.
That means that 50pts of its 90pt cost are tied up in just those 3 guns. And realistically you could easily argue that the Shuriken cannon should be 15pts.
But lets be conservative and say 50pts. So that means that 40pts is tied up in the actual model itself which has a 4+ invuln, -1 to hit, no re-rolls allowed, 16' movement, fly and auto 6' advane. Does that sound like a good unit at just 40pts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/25 19:16:48
I don't believe this was playtested - and if it was and they went "seems fine to me" the whole process is clearly bugged to being pointless.
People think this is to sell models - but I really think GW just go "we thought this was fine but you all thought it sucked. Here's a massive glow up, hope you like it" - and the result it just ludicrous.
You could argue bias against Orks - but 10th edition, Flash Gits are going to have 4 wounds, and an assault 5, S6 AP-4 3 damage weapon for say 20 points. Because why not?
I don't believe this was playtested - and if it was and they went "seems fine to me" the whole process is clearly bugged to being pointless.
People think this is to sell models - but I really think GW just go "we thought this was fine but you all thought it sucked. Here's a massive glow up, hope you like it" - and the result it just ludicrous.
You could argue bias against Orks - but 10th edition, Flash Gits are going to have 4 wounds, and an assault 5, S6 AP-4 3 damage weapon for say 20 points. Because why not?
I think the problem is that most of the "glow ups" come for free, or for such a small points increase that they might as well be. Gw just keeps making things too cheap.
Starweaver 80pts
M16, auto 6' advance, T5 6W 4+ save/invuln -1 to hit, no re-rolls. BS3+ 6 S6 -1AP 2dmg shuriken shots.
Hmm...I think the -1 to hit only hurts BS2 if they're in Dark, right? It is 90 points, but that isn't much solace.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: People think this is to sell models - but I really think GW just go "we thought this was fine but you all thought it sucked. Here's a massive glow up, hope you like it" - and the result it just ludicrous.
Yea if it was the whole book we'd see those Eldrad die-hards running around, but it seems partially contained to Harlies at the moment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/25 21:28:50
Starweaver 80pts
M16, auto 6' advance, T5 6W 4+ save/invuln -1 to hit, no re-rolls. BS3+ 6 S6 -1AP 2dmg shuriken shots.
Hmm...I think the -1 to hit only hurts BS2 if they're in Dark, right? It is 90 points, but that isn't much solace.
Nope its "Subtract 1 from that attacks hit roll and that attack's hit roll cannot be re-rolled" nothing about BS2 and nothing about dark or light. its also in CC AND in Ranged combat and its 80pts not 90 You are thinking of the Voidweaver which is the HS choice.
Ironically, if GW made Flashgitz 20ppm gave them all those buffs you mentioned they would add a caveat "Only 3 models per army" and then everything would be dramatically over priced to compensate for your 3 good models
Starweaver 80pts
M16, auto 6' advance, T5 6W 4+ save/invuln -1 to hit, no re-rolls. BS3+ 6 S6 -1AP 2dmg shuriken shots.
Hmm...I think the -1 to hit only hurts BS2 if they're in Dark, right? It is 90 points, but that isn't much solace.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: People think this is to sell models - but I really think GW just go "we thought this was fine but you all thought it sucked. Here's a massive glow up, hope you like it" - and the result it just ludicrous.
Yea if it was the whole book we'd see those Eldrad die-hards running around, but it seems partially contained to Harlies at the moment.
-1 hit doesn't do much against Bs3+ armies in Light yes but it still works if your within 12" or in combat.
And it also disables re-rolls, because reasons.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: What happened to all the people saying Vertus Praetors were broken at 85ppm?
Oh, we still think that they are, we just have new busted things to talk about. Don't worry, we still remember all of the ridiculously underpriced things available to The Golden Boys.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yeeehhh.....I checked, and both "The Mournival" and the "Infinity Circuit" are in the credits for the Imperial Armour Compendium. And if the "Infinity Circuit" thinks that the rules for the Chaos units in there represent the "flavor of the lore" for Chaos, then they're probably a bunch of Imperial/Xenos players. They're just copy-pastes of the loyalist units in the same book, with "Chaos" and "Hellforged" written here and there. Where's my Machine Malifica? Where's my Legacies of Ruin? Where's my Butcher Cannons?
The Infinity Circuit guy plays Eldar. I don't think he's the only one who does narrative playtesting and I'm almost certain the comp playtesters are also more than a single group. I've heard mention of playtester discords a few times in podcasts in the past too.
Not sure if that's helpful info, especially a week or so late but I was too busy with work this last week to keep up with the internet hub-bub.
I don't believe this was playtested - and if it was and they went "seems fine to me" the whole process is clearly bugged to being pointless.
People think this is to sell models - but I really think GW just go "we thought this was fine but you all thought it sucked. Here's a massive glow up, hope you like it" - and the result it just ludicrous.
You could argue bias against Orks - but 10th edition, Flash Gits are going to have 4 wounds, and an assault 5, S6 AP-4 3 damage weapon for say 20 points. Because why not?
I think the problem is that most of the "glow ups" come for free, or for such a small points increase that they might as well be. Gw just keeps making things too cheap.
Agree with the last part completely. Points are supposed to be the more granular balancing option but GW seems intent on cramming everything down way lower than they have any right being. There's this constant race to the bottom the design team seems to keep engaging with in an effort to cram more models onto the table at every points level even if it's not always the healthiest thing to do for the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/26 02:00:05
Starweaver 80pts
M16, auto 6' advance, T5 6W 4+ save/invuln -1 to hit, no re-rolls. BS3+ 6 S6 -1AP 2dmg shuriken shots.
Hmm...I think the -1 to hit only hurts BS2 if they're in Dark, right? It is 90 points, but that isn't much solace.
Nope its "Subtract 1 from that attacks hit roll and that attack's hit roll cannot be re-rolled" nothing about BS2 and nothing about dark or light. its also in CC AND in Ranged combat and its 80pts not 90 You are thinking of the Voidweaver which is the HS choice.
Ironically, if GW made Flashgitz 20ppm gave them all those buffs you mentioned they would add a caveat "Only 3 models per army" and then everything would be dramatically over priced to compensate for your 3 good models
Sorry I think I worded that wrong.
Dark is unmod 1-3 fails.
So, if I hit on 3s the -1 takes me to 4s and there is no effect since the 3s miss anyway.
Well...to revise my statement - it doesn't hurt BS2/3 any, but it still hurts BS4/5. Does that make sense? Or am I losing my mind?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/26 02:36:19
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yeeehhh.....I checked, and both "The Mournival" and the "Infinity Circuit" are in the credits for the Imperial Armour Compendium. And if the "Infinity Circuit" thinks that the rules for the Chaos units in there represent the "flavor of the lore" for Chaos, then they're probably a bunch of Imperial/Xenos players. They're just copy-pastes of the loyalist units in the same book, with "Chaos" and "Hellforged" written here and there. Where's my Machine Malifica? Where's my Legacies of Ruin? Where's my Butcher Cannons?
The Infinity Circuit guy plays Eldar. I don't think he's the only one who does narrative playtesting and I'm almost certain the comp playtesters are also more than a single group. I've heard mention of playtester discords a few times in podcasts in the past too.
Not sure if that's helpful info, especially a week or so late but I was too busy with work this last week to keep up with the internet hub-bub.
More information is always helpful, and I thank you for it. But it unfortunately still doesn't explain why the "fluff" playtestors signed off on all of the Chaos units in the Compendium losing all of their "fluffy" rules. I can only assume that either they didn't know enough about them to know that they were gone, didn't get to actually see them, or that they did say something but gw ignored them for whatever reason, probably expedience, as I doubt anyone thought that things like Machine Malifica were breaking the game.
I don't believe this was playtested - and if it was and they went "seems fine to me" the whole process is clearly bugged to being pointless.
People think this is to sell models - but I really think GW just go "we thought this was fine but you all thought it sucked. Here's a massive glow up, hope you like it" - and the result it just ludicrous.
You could argue bias against Orks - but 10th edition, Flash Gits are going to have 4 wounds, and an assault 5, S6 AP-4 3 damage weapon for say 20 points. Because why not?
I think the problem is that most of the "glow ups" come for free, or for such a small points increase that they might as well be. Gw just keeps making things too cheap.
Agree with the last part completely. Points are supposed to be the more granular balancing option but GW seems intent on cramming everything down way lower than they have any right being. There's this constant race to the bottom the design team seems to keep engaging with in an effort to cram more models onto the table at every points level even if it's not always the healthiest thing to do for the game.
I'm not sure if they're doing it specifically to increase the model counts in games. If that was their goal, then I'd think they'd be cutting points more for older codexes. I think it might be more of a case of them playtesting the newer codexes against each other, instead of the ones that came out earlier in 9th. That would explain why the power levels keep increasing.
@Daedalus: I think you've gotten it right, except I think you might have the "traits" mixed up. I believe "Light" is the one that prevents you hitting on unmodified rolls of 1-3, while "Dark" is Fight on Death.
Tyel wrote: The Voidweaver is clearly head and shoulders over any comparable unit. 120 points might be getting a bit much on a 6 wound frame - but the firepower is broken given the flexibility, fly, Harlequin defences etc. I feel like they just forgot it also has 2 shuriken cannons.
But then I suspect this is because they decided Starweavers should only be 80 points. At that price they are the best transports in the game. I think they could be 90.
Its the usual debate really - the same applies to Custodes and Tau. There's nerfs to bring them down to say a 60% win rate (i.e. still top but not so clearly broken) and nerfs to 50%/where the bulk of books are.
Starweaver 80pts
M16, auto 6' advance, T5 6W 4+ save/invuln -1 to hit, no re-rolls. BS3+ 6 S6 -1AP 2dmg shuriken shots.
Trukk 70pts
M12, T6 10W 4+ save/NO invuln, BS5+ 3 S5 0AP 1dmg shots. (Ramshackle -1dmg on S7 and below).
Against S7 and below multi-dmg weapons the Trukk is definitely more durable. As soon as you start getting into S8+ it swings to the Starweaver. As far as dmg output...its totally one sided. A trukk does 3 shots, 1 hit 0.6 wounds and 0.2 dmg to a Marine. The Starweaver does 6 shots, 4 hits, 2.66 wounds for 1.33 failed saves for 2.66dmg to a Marine...or 13x more dmg
also...somehow the Starweaver is better in CC than the trukk....figure that out.
I think the Starweaver profile is appropriate, except the points cost. Harlequins are supposed to be an elite army, with low body count but badass models. So yeah, they should be amazing, even transports, but not cheap. A starweaver should cost like a razorback, 100-120 points, not 80.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Note: Mirror of Minds does not average 3 wounds, and it also casts on a 7, so you should say "if it casts, it averages X wounds" where X is 2 (avg of d3) + 21/36 (likelihood of winning/tying the roll off). So if cast, Mirror of Minds averages ~2.6 MW.
...but given that it casts on a 7, I don't get how this is a boogieman at all.
ETA: Ugh I'm wrong and didn't account for the telescoping damage from multiple wins of the dice roll-off. It is actually a little more than 3 MW. I still don't get how that's that crazy degenerate when compared to smite though. If you're going to complain about OP stuff in that book, I don't think that's a great example.
Why? because its 100pts for a Psyker lvl 2 who has a pistol, D3 Mortal wound grenade Launcher, 5 wounds, 4+ invuln and a host of special rules including an aura which gives -1 to wound to harlequins within 6' of him. ...which includes himself.
I can take a weirdboy for 70pts who gets a 6+ save, no ranged weapon and is significantly slower...and hes Psyker lvl 1. And no, the "Waaagh! Energy" rule does not give him Psyker 2 because ork infantry units are so terrible they never benefit from it.
As far as compared to smite...Smite casts on a 5 and does D3 mortal wounds. So i averages 2. And again, its a Psyker lvl 2 so it can do both
Okay, all of that is true, but none of it has to do with Mirror of Minds. Are Shadowseers too good? Yeah. Is that power anything to write home about? No.
I think 120 would be pushing it for a starweaver. Its only got 6 wounds.
If you compare with say a 75/85 point Venom (which I'd say is neither obviously terrible or overpowered), I think 95-100 is probably a fair price . 80 is however clearly a steal when you get better guns*, a 4++ over a 5++, auto-advance 6 if you need it, and no rerolls to hit against you.
*There are certain situations where splinter cannons beat shuriken cannons by a little bit - but there are far more when Shuriken is dramatically better.
I also think CWE have the legs - but its much easier to build a "bad" (or non-synergistic) list, or rather just make a lot of mistakes with it. If you've got say one unit of banshees, one unit of scorpions, one unit of spears, one unit of shroud runners, one unit of hawks etc etc you've got to make a lot of choices about which unit is going to do what. There isn't the same redundancy - and units can't automatically cover each other on a 1 to 1 basis. Its a bit more... fiddly than when you've got 3 units of X, 3 units of Y and 2 units of Z. (Nothing admittedly stops you building a list like that, but exarch powers etc make it probably not optimal.) I'd say 2 Farseers, a load of support weapons and maybe a Nightspinner seems to be winning out as a sort of standard.
Okay, all of that is true, but none of it has to do with Mirror of Minds. Are Shadowseers too good? Yeah. Is that power anything to write home about? No.
While you pile up stuff for free on models or units which are already good, it very much is something to write about.
That's the nonsense of it all. If you have a smaller surface - like you have GW's odd-sized boards or bought one of the smaller mats - then use the smaller surface. Fine. No big deal. But to actually take a 6x4 mat and tape off part of it to make it smaller is lunacy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/26 16:56:45
The game is so broken right now since the launch of Custodes, CWE, Quins and T'au I don't even know where to start.
I played a GT test game earlier using an Ork board pressure list, Some Trukks because there is too much indirect fire, triple warboss mostly durability buffs, Some Stormboyz & Kommando's for secondaries into a CWE match. His list not even particularly tuned. It didn't even feel like we were playing the same game system.
It's just laughable the disparity level between the codexes. Strands of Fate and Luck of the Laughing god are two of the most straight up busted, ill thought out. dumb army wide rules I can ever remember.
T'au are just as oppressive with unkillable crisis suit bombs and ridiculous amounts of indirect fire.
Basically armies that you cannot meaningfully interact with.
I could have had another 500 points in my list and it still wouldn't have been a battle.
As people have already pointed out, some of the points costs are laughable. A farseer at 90 points vs. an Ork Weirdboy at 70. Starweavers at 80 vs Trukks at 70.
The game is utterly broken.
I don't even know where to start to balance these new codexes to bring the older codexes remotely onto an even footing.
It makes the bevvy of Ork nerfs look even more ridiculous, When they made all those ork nerfs theGW rules writers were armed with all of the information and knew that the Asuryani & T'au codexes were about to land, and the power levels of those books and they still went ahead and nerfed Orks (a codex with terrible internal balance that was surviving off 1-2 power builds into the dirt)
Just boggles the mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sasori wrote: I suspect we are going to see Starweavers go up 5 PPM and Voidweavers 10 PPM, with a possible +5 points to the prism cannon.
Pickled_egg wrote: The game is so broken right now since the launch of Custodes, CWE, Quins and T'au I don't even know where to start.
I played a GT test game earlier using an Ork board pressure list, Some Trukks because there is too much indirect fire, triple warboss mostly durability buffs, Some Stormboyz & Kommando's for secondaries into a CWE match. His list not even particularly tuned. It didn't even feel like we were playing the same game system.
It's just laughable the disparity level between the codexes. Strands of Fate and Luck of the Laughing god are two of the most straight up busted, ill thought out. dumb army wide rules I can ever remember.
T'au are just as oppressive with unkillable crisis suit bombs and ridiculous amounts of indirect fire.
Basically armies that you cannot meaningfully interact with.
I could have had another 500 points in my list and it still wouldn't have been a battle.
As people have already pointed out, some of the points costs are laughable. A farseer at 90 points vs. an Ork Weirdboy at 70. Starweavers at 80 vs Trukks at 70.
The game is utterly broken.
I don't even know where to start to balance these new codexes to bring the older codexes remotely onto an even footing.
It makes the bevvy of Ork nerfs look even more ridiculous, When they made all those ork nerfs theGW rules writers were armed with all of the information and knew that the Asuryani & T'au codexes were about to land, and the power levels of those books and they still went ahead and nerfed Orks (a codex with terrible internal balance that was surviving off 1-2 power builds into the dirt)
Just boggles the mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sasori wrote: I suspect we are going to see Starweavers go up 5 PPM and Voidweavers 10 PPM, with a possible +5 points to the prism cannon.
Just so I understand your point, is the game broken because you can't beat the new factions with your Ork lists, or is it broken because they are too powerful? Because that is two very different statements.
One you are advocating for Orks to be as strong as the current meta, which is funny, because they are doing fine currently. Let's not make orks out to be Guard or Daemons.
I admit fully that the current meta has so far eclipsed the older factions as to be literally a joke. But that is not even a point. You are just screaming the game is unbalanced. No one ever promised anyone a balanced game. Ever. They claim they make efforts to "increase" balance, but never achieve complete balance. Because that would be chess, and even that is inherently unbalanced because of who goes first.
Point cost is not the way to balance this game. It's the way to ruin it. Just make all weapons USR, Bolters are Bolters, Melta are Melta, Melee is Melee. Going back to the AV system. Look at the way OPR does it. FAR more balanced, but you have no standout pieces. Everything is roughly similar, compared to 40k.
Pickled_egg wrote: The game is so broken right now since the launch of Custodes, CWE, Quins and T'au I don't even know where to start.
I played a GT test game earlier using an Ork board pressure list, Some Trukks because there is too much indirect fire, triple warboss mostly durability buffs, Some Stormboyz & Kommando's for secondaries into a CWE match. His list not even particularly tuned. It didn't even feel like we were playing the same game system.
It's just laughable the disparity level between the codexes. Strands of Fate and Luck of the Laughing god are two of the most straight up busted, ill thought out. dumb army wide rules I can ever remember.
T'au are just as oppressive with unkillable crisis suit bombs and ridiculous amounts of indirect fire.
Basically armies that you cannot meaningfully interact with.
I could have had another 500 points in my list and it still wouldn't have been a battle.
As people have already pointed out, some of the points costs are laughable. A farseer at 90 points vs. an Ork Weirdboy at 70. Starweavers at 80 vs Trukks at 70.
The game is utterly broken.
I don't even know where to start to balance these new codexes to bring the older codexes remotely onto an even footing.
It makes the bevvy of Ork nerfs look even more ridiculous, When they made all those ork nerfs theGW rules writers were armed with all of the information and knew that the Asuryani & T'au codexes were about to land, and the power levels of those books and they still went ahead and nerfed Orks (a codex with terrible internal balance that was surviving off 1-2 power builds into the dirt)
Just boggles the mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sasori wrote: I suspect we are going to see Starweavers go up 5 PPM and Voidweavers 10 PPM, with a possible +5 points to the prism cannon.
Just so I understand your point, is the game broken because you can't beat the new factions with your Ork lists, or is it broken because they are too powerful? Because that is two very different statements.
One you are advocating for Orks to be as strong as the current meta, which is funny, because they are doing fine currently. Let's not make orks out to be Guard or Daemons.
I admit fully that the current meta has so far eclipsed the older factions as to be literally a joke. But that is not even a point. You are just screaming the game is unbalanced. No one ever promised anyone a balanced game. Ever. They claim they make efforts to "increase" balance, but never achieve complete balance. Because that would be chess, and even that is inherently unbalanced because of who goes first.
Point cost is not the way to balance this game. It's the way to ruin it. Just make all weapons USR, Bolters are Bolters, Melta are Melta, Melee is Melee. Going back to the AV system. Look at the way OPR does it. FAR more balanced, but you have no standout pieces. Everything is roughly similar, compared to 40k.
Uhhh......you do know that Grimdark Future uses points as a balancing mechanism between units/armies/optional wargear, right? So, apparently, OPR does think that "points cost is a way to balance a game". Units and optional wargear should be priced according to their relative stats/abilities compared to other units/wargear in the game.
Yeeesh. Maybe the TO wanted to make a statement about lethality?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: No one ever promised anyone a balanced game. Ever. They claim they make efforts to "increase" balance, but never achieve complete balance. Because that would be chess, and even that is inherently unbalanced because of who goes first.
Point cost is not the way to balance this game. It's the way to ruin it. Just make all weapons USR, Bolters are Bolters, Melta are Melta, Melee is Melee. Going back to the AV system. Look at the way OPR does it. FAR more balanced, but you have no standout pieces. Everything is roughly similar, compared to 40k.
Kind of a weird take. No one promised perfect balance, but we weren't led to believe that they would position things this out of whack.
I understand how they got to this place, but they need to take steps. Not all of it will be points, but points are crucial regardless. OPR just homogenizes everything so it's all kind of roughly similar, but there's definitely places it can be exploited.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/26 20:54:09
and its 80pts not 90 
Butcher Cannons? 
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
