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 VladimirHerzog wrote:


leave squadrons, fix pts costs.

the codex options are already anemic, don't force people into the same build all the time.

(ork buggies shouldve been fixed with pts too, not that gakky patch rule)

Even if they were to cost 125pts each. They would still be extremly good. As a matter of perspective 125 is what a dreadnought costs or half an NDK, or you could get 2 void weaver for 1 NDK, and as good as an NDK is, it is no where near as good as two of those gunboats.

In reality the thing is unfixable though. GW can either "fix" harlis, and we never see them again, and harli players are in for some NPE or the changes are inconsequential and we get the same thing we saw with DE or Inari.

The very idea that Eldar got no down sides soup option irks me to no end, specially when in case of books like 1ksons or GK, GWs only material promoted the army with the ability to mix cabals or brotherhoods. And neither army got anything in return for losing that crucial way of building armies.

EightFoldPath wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I think the real problem I have with Goonhammer proposals is they always have this sort of weasel words: "First, it’s important to note that any changes to the faction shouldn’t kill them competitively – in an ideal world everyone sits in the A or B tier of factions and can build into other factions to maintain competitive games."

This is why DE dominated the game for the best part of a year. "Sure they shouldn't have a 65% win rate - but nerfing them past 60 is contrary to some divine right of broken codexes to stay broken". Its the logic that a few lucky codexes get the A Tier treatment and should be there forever more (until GW completely resets the scale as they have in the last few months.)

Couldn't agree more. Too many delusional elf players writing for them that still can't admit how strong the Craftworlds half of the book is. They also really don't seem to get the concept of 40k players who only own one or two factions. It would have been miserable to own Imperial Guard and Death Guard for example, a brief moment of somewhat playable DG with a chance at tournaments after their codex came out until two months later DE come out. Then a steady decline for DG and a solid bottom of the barrel time for IG for the next 13 months.

One of these things is not like the others. There is not the same irrefutable proof of brokenness on the CWE side as with Harlequins, or even with Tau/Custodes. Maybe they should catch some nerfs/FAQs now, but lol it's not "the eeeevil Eldar kabal of Goonhammer" acting in some sort of conspiracy theory.

In general I agree with the point though. DE and even Admech were touched with feathers and it wasn't sufficient. I think we forget about that fact with Admech given that GW did eventually bring the sledgehammer to the kneecap there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

The very idea that Eldar got no down sides soup option irks me to no end, specially when in case of books like 1ksons or GK, GWs only material promoted the army with the ability to mix cabals or brotherhoods. And neither army got anything in return for losing that crucial way of building armies.

Totally agree, the way GW has handled soup in 8th/9th is proof that they've been applying lipstick to the same old pig.

Wait, so we have to first wait a few months for a FAQ, while eldar soup in harlis and then we wait another few months, possibly arriving at 10th ed, when they have to be played with just CWE units. And that is an assumption made with a big nerf to voids. if it is just a 10-20pts hike we will see 7 of them instead of 9, or we still see 9, but CWE players will cut some units. Because we already have seen this in 8th ed and it didn't work. by the time GW started nerfing eldar more then half edition was over, the whole thing was warped how super efficient Inari were and pushed all the armies that could in to wierd soup set ups and spaming hyper efficient unit like smash hammers and castellans everywhere. Funniest thing was when GW nerfed the real problem for real, aka Inari, the CWE players already switched to flyer lists.

Karol wrote:

Even if they were to cost 125pts each. They would still be extremly good. As a matter of perspective 125 is what a dreadnought costs or half an NDK, or you could get 2 void weaver for 1 NDK, and as good as an NDK is, it is no where near as good as two of those gunboats.

In reality the thing is unfixable though. GW can either "fix" harlis, and we never see them again, and harli players are in for some NPE or the changes are inconsequential and we get the same thing we saw with DE or Inari.

The very idea that Eldar got no down sides soup option irks me to no end, specially when in case of books like 1ksons or GK, GWs only material promoted the army with the ability to mix cabals or brotherhoods. And neither army got anything in return for losing that crucial way of building armies.

then make them more expensive than 125pts lol? They're not unfixable at all.


And yeah, soup now is a mess caused by GW overcorrecting the 8th lists. I honestly believe GW couldve let soup be a thing now that detachments cost CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Wait, so we have to first wait a few months for a FAQ, while eldar soup in harlis and then we wait another few months, possibly arriving at 10th ed, when they have to be played with just CWE units. And that is an assumption made with a big nerf to voids. if it is just a 10-20pts hike we will see 7 of them instead of 9, or we still see 9, but CWE players will cut some units. Because we already have seen this in 8th ed and it didn't work. by the time GW started nerfing eldar more then half edition was over, the whole thing was warped how super efficient Inari were and pushed all the armies that could in to wierd soup set ups and spaming hyper efficient unit like smash hammers and castellans everywhere. Funniest thing was when GW nerfed the real problem for real, aka Inari, the CWE players already switched to flyer lists.

you do realise the oppressive lists are pure harlequins and not soup tho?

And in 8th it was multiple different armies that you're lumping into "eldar"

we had Ynnari at the start of the edition (which got slapped into irrelevance)
then we had Eldar flyers (Craftworlds + Drukhari)
Then we had the venom spam drukhari list which also got nerfed into irrelevance

and its not like those were the only OP armies in 8th either

then make them more expensive than 125pts lol? They're not unfixable at all.

yeah they are GW fixable ala end of 8th ed Inari way of fixing things, or 8th ed salamanders way of fixing that army. I am assuming the army should some what playable. But within the way GW changes rules and at what pace, I don't see them being right for both parties to be happy about it. Of course the biggest problem with it, is that thanks to the harlis being a problem. CWE lists just got 3 to 6 months extra unnerfed time to be played.

I look at some other armies tanks, who are not skimmers, and even at 130pts the void weaver seems a very good option. Small fast moving vehicles that can be spamed with huge offensive output and overlaping protection seem to be a recuring problem in this edition. For harlis they seem to be a problem the second time around, because before DE starting doing drive by shoting with liquifires, it was harlis that were a tier of its own army.

you do realise the oppressive lists are pure harlequins and not soup tho?

They are very good in both lists, and CWE souping in eldar are making it to top tables of big tournaments. Outside of tournaments, I struggle to imagine how running 3-6 of those and a detachment of harlis would not greatly increase the power of a CWE army.

and in 8th it was multiple different armies that you're lumping into "eldar"

we had Ynnari at the start of the edition (which got slapped into irrelevance)
then we had Eldar flyers (Craftworlds + Drukhari)

They were played with the same models, and often double dipped on the same rules like stratagems. And stanard Inari were "slaped" in to irrelevance when the castellan came out, and that was what a year or 9 months in to 8th ed? that is double the time some armies were considered good or passable in 9th. And that is just for events. Outside of tournaments Inari were a scourge of gaming till they got their WD codex or if you happened to play Iron Hands with 2.0 rules.

Also with eldar it seems to be the case that they become a problem each time they get a codex. They are breaking editions just by getting a new book. No other army, including the supposed golden boy of GW marines get to do that. Marine books end up horrible a ton of times. I don't think there was a single time in history of w40k when eldar with a current for the edition book weren't one of the best or litterally the best army in the game.

I have a feeling that the Voidweavers will receive the Ork Buggy treatment as an emergency patch.

I am not sure if points alone can fix them, although they are clearly too cheap. Compare them to a Space Marine Landspeeder.

 Rihgu wrote:
I don't think you need to up the points if you're removing squadroning, honestly.

90pts for a vehicle that makes Ork Buggies look like utter crap in comparison. Durability wise they are just as durable if not more so thanks to -1 to hit, 4+ invuln and other shenanigans. Dmg potential wise, they are ridiculous, The Prismatic Cannon is better in every way to anything a buggy has and then the cherry on top is the 2 Shuriken cannons.

Yeah no, minimize them to 1 per army and it would still need a points increase just to balance the fact that its arguably 20-30pts under priced MINIMUM.

The Dreaded "Rukkatrukk Squig Buggy" Which caused GW and Tournament meta players alike to have conniption fits averaged 4-5 hits a turn at S5 AP-2 2dmg...that's it. This thing averages 5 hits at S6 -2AP 2dmg just from its Shuriken cannons, its main gun is a whole other story. So yeah, no, points increase is a must.

everyone complains about salvo launcher praetors and Voidweavers litterally do 3 times as much damage at range and are basically just as durable (since everything takes vertus to their 4++).

Combined with the light saedeath shutting off hit rerolls and trans-hit army-wide its just stupid. I do freely admit that they are the crutch making harlies the top dogs atm as the rest of the army is not nearly as oppressive.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
everyone complains about salvo launcher praetors and Voidweavers litterally do 3 times as much damage at range and are basically just as durable (since everything takes vertus to their 4++).

Combined with the light saedeath shutting off hit rerolls and trans-hit army-wide its just stupid. I do freely admit that they are the crutch making harlies the top dogs atm as the rest of the army is not nearly as oppressive.

tiny correction, the voidweaver natively shuts off hit re-rolls, Its part of the -1 to hit rule it has. Light is just the transhuman for hits.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


the codex options are already anemic, don't force people into the same build all the time.

Is it? I though codex aeldari had plenty of options.

Harlequins are not a standalone faction anymore, their units are just regular aeldari now. Playing pure harlequins (hence limited builds) is just a choice now, just like playing pure snaggas or pure gretchins. And litterally no one had more than 3 voidweavers before, it was even illegal to take more than 3. So limiting to max 3 won't hurt anyone, really.

I think you under estimate how fast people wanted to get voids for themselfs. It is like saying that most GK players had only 4 NDKs, because the second HQ was Draigo almost always. The fact that people can get their hands on codex rules a lot sooner then the book hits the store means, some people have armies ready to play day one.

 Blackie wrote:
Harlequins are not a standalone faction anymore, their units are just regular aeldari now. Playing pure harlequins (hence limited builds) is just a choice now, just like playing pure snaggas or pure gretchins. And litterally no one had more than 3 voidweavers before, it was even illegal to take more than 3. So limiting to max 3 won't hurt anyone, really.

That's not a correct comparison. Harlis have their own rules within the Codex. Harliquens have far more to them than just being part of another list. Beastsnaggaz don't have a whole section of their own strats, relics and secondary objectives. Do Beastsnaggaz have their own purity rule?

Why are Custodes even in a conversation of broken armies that can soup? Custodes literally can't even soup with their own sub factions. You can't mix shadowkeepers with Dread host. And if you mix Custodes with anything not Custodes, they simply become really expensive piles of crap. All their special stuff gets turned off. I know Custodes are slightly on the side of OP right now, but please leave them out of the "Souping is broken" discussion.

 Blackie wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


the codex options are already anemic, don't force people into the same build all the time.

Is it? I though codex aeldari had plenty of options.

Harlequins are not a standalone faction anymore, their units are just regular aeldari now. Playing pure harlequins (hence limited builds) is just a choice now, just like playing pure snaggas or pure gretchins. And litterally no one had more than 3 voidweavers before, it was even illegal to take more than 3. So limiting to max 3 won't hurt anyone, really.

You know what most Harlequin players I know have?
Plenty of the transport weaver (whatever it's called).
And a bitz box that contains the weapons they'd need to convert them to the gun boat version.

Sure, they may only have 3 dedicated voidweavers.
But for minimal effort & the cost of a pack of magnets....

How annoying is Light's "transhuman for hits"?

Its just I see it brought up a lot - but I'm just not sure why, unless its specifically say a Custodes lament? To impact the boats, you need to be BS2+, either base, or 3+ with a +1 to hit. And that's not that common really?

It seems a lot better on the bikes since they don't have a native -1 to hit from shooting. Which will be the inevitably pivot if/when GW cut the boats down to size. But if you have a 9 Voidweaver, 4-5 starweaver list that's kind of different.

Tyel wrote:
How annoying is Light's "transhuman for hits"?

Its just I see it brought up a lot - but I'm just not sure why, unless its specifically say a Custodes lament? To impact the boats, you need to be BS2+, either base, or 3+ with a +1 to hit. And that's not that common really?

It seems a lot better on the bikes since they don't have a native -1 to hit from shooting. Which will be the inevitably pivot if/when GW cut the boats down to size. But if you have a 9 Voidweaver, 4-5 starweaver list that's kind of different.

It's pretty good, also because it doubles-up with no-re-rolls.

And +1 to hit or variants of "ignore modifiers" are not that uncommon anymore. Velocity Trackers and the Commander Ability for Tau. Presage and the ignore-modifier Relic for Thousand Sons. Space Marine Techmarine Buff. Crystal Targeting Matrix. Etc., etc..

Also while Custodes have BS 2+ throughout, many armies have it on characters and specific units. Tau Commanders, Nemesis Dreadknight-GMs, etc...

I sympathize with Harlie players who say that nerfing Voidweavers will reduce their options from their already limited codex/book/subfaction, but right now it would seem that the only competitive lists have 9 of them with Light. So you already have only one competitive archetype.

Perhaps there was pressure from the suits to get the book released on time and the developers just kinda crossed their fingers and hoped for the best? I have no inside knowledge, but it would not surprise me to learn that they only really playtested with a single unit of three in a Harlie detachment that was in turn part of an Aeldari Army.

I think that the recent tourney data can now be considered information verging on intelligence. Something needs to be done, but GW is in a quandary. If they do nothing then the howls will continue and they risk fracturing the player base like it was before 9th. If they do something then they have set a trend (perhaps started with Admech, then Ork buggies/flyers, GK Dreadknights) - most books will have broken stuff that will be nerfed shortly after release. This in turn would cause some hesitancy for players to buy stuff from new books. Or not? Maybe this is a feature and not a bug?

So weave on Voidweavers! Enjoy your time in the dark sun! And watch the community page - ask not for whom the bell tolls...

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Tyel wrote:
How annoying is Light's "transhuman for hits"?

Its just I see it brought up a lot - but I'm just not sure why, unless its specifically say a Custodes lament? To impact the boats, you need to be BS2+, either base, or 3+ with a +1 to hit. And that's not that common really?

It seems a lot better on the bikes since they don't have a native -1 to hit from shooting. Which will be the inevitably pivot if/when GW cut the boats down to size. But if you have a 9 Voidweaver, 4-5 starweaver list that's kind of different.

It's pretty good, also because it doubles-up with no-re-rolls.

And +1 to hit or variants of "ignore modifiers" are not that uncommon anymore. Velocity Trackers and the Commander Ability for Tau. Presage and the ignore-modifier Relic for Thousand Sons. Space Marine Techmarine Buff. Crystal Targeting Matrix. Etc., etc..

Also while Custodes have BS 2+ throughout, many armies have it on characters and specific units. Tau Commanders, Nemesis Dreadknight-GMs, etc...

It looks like Light doesn't do much outside BS2 that the -1 to hit and no rerolls wasn't already covering unless you also have a +1 to hit and then it only matters for BS3.

BS2 with RR1s : 97%
BS2 with RR1s and -1 to hit : 78%
BS2 -1 to hit and no Rerolls : 66%
BS2 -1 to hit, no Rerolls, and Light : 50%

BS3 with RR1s : 77%
BS3 with RR1s and -1 to hit : 58%
BS3 -1 to hit and no Rerolls : 50%
BS3 -1 to hit, no Rerolls, and Light : 50%

BS4 with RR1s : 58%
BS4 with RR1s and -1 to hit : 38%
BS4 -1 to hit and no Rerolls : 33%
BS4 -1 to hit, no Rerolls, and Light : 33%

"Light doesn't do much if you ignore all the best units in the game"

Hot take there.

Before the Eldar codex came out the top 2 armies were Tau and Custodes. Custodes speaks for itself being entirely BS 2+ and Tau's damage comes from their Commanders who are BS 2+ and Crisis units with BS 3+ (cause ML) and access to ignore modifiers.

You don't care that Light doesn't do much against Guard or Space Marines because those armies are not a threat in the first place

"Its really good against Custodes and Tau" is a reasonable answer for why commentators focused on the competitive scene keep bringing it up.

I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something else I was missing.

Well the "don't worry about DE" sentance was followed by "Ad mecha will balance them out" and "If you think that DE are broken, wait till you see Ad mecha".

I wonder how many GK players would like to be able to buy NDKs in squadrons. An army of 6-7 NDK, plus a master and 30 interceptors dudes to hang on objectives. Could be fun to play.

I mean, light isn't "only" the 4+ to hit.

Moving the shooty boats 22 instead of 16 and firing (and jumping away 6 if somebody tries to hit them) are all important parts of the package.

But generally, I don't think they are soo bad, despite a good first weekend.

Pure efficiency, things Custodes bikes are 1000% more insane. They are basically Voidweavers that pay 10 points less for a +1T, WS/BS +1, 2+ armour, <Core>, count as double on objective and 600% more close combat output upgrade.

If only armies like Custodes / Tau were out there (not poor folks like Marines or so), Voidweaver should probably lose another 20-30 points.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Harlequins are not a standalone faction anymore, their units are just regular aeldari now. Playing pure harlequins (hence limited builds) is just a choice now, just like playing pure snaggas or pure gretchins. And litterally no one had more than 3 voidweavers before, it was even illegal to take more than 3. So limiting to max 3 won't hurt anyone, really.

That's not a correct comparison. Harlis have their own rules within the Codex. Harliquens have far more to them than just being part of another list. Beastsnaggaz don't have a whole section of their own strats, relics and secondary objectives. Do Beastsnaggaz have their own purity rule?

Umm...Ironically, yes Snaggaz do in fact have their own Strats and Relics. They don't have their own secondary objectives though

As far as purity? nope, GW is kind of dumb when it comes to orkz. Here is a wonderful example of what I am talking about. The official "Major" klanz of the Orkz are Goff, Evil Sunz, Deffskullz, Badmoonz, Blood Axes, Snakebites and Freebootas. Of those 7, Freebootas are technically not a klan so much as a "kulture" in that they are all the other klanz lumped together to fight as mercenary/Pirates.

So 8th edition, GW releases a special EVIL SUNZ faction! Nope, sorry I said evil sunz, you know the klan that loves to Go fast, paint things red and drive around on warbikes and fast vehicles? No, what I meant to say was "SPEED FREAKZ" Which love to go fast, paint things red, drive around on warbikes and fast vehicles. Totally different from Evil Sunz, so Don't get confused.

Now 9th. GW finally released a Klan specific army! Introducing...SNAKEBITES! Sorry again, I Said Snakebites, the old fashioned orkz who barely believe in gunpowder, ride around on squigs and are incredibly tough. No, these are called BEAST SNAGGAZ! They barely believe in gunpowder, they ride around on squigs and are incredibly tough.

GW literally has no idea WTF they are doing with orkz and hasnt for so long that its astounding they still have a relatively large group of players buying their stuff.

Sunny Side Up wrote:


But generally, I don't think they are soo bad, despite a good first weekend.

Take a harli list, give it to another play, and play 10 games vs anything other then tau, custodes and Ad Mecha. If you think they aren't SOO bad. DE weren't SOO bad either. No army that hits a big event, where the best of the best player are, and ends it with almost 80% win rate , including mirrors it gets higher, is not just not SOO bad, it is actually as bad as it looks like. And if we get an army that can easily beat them and all the other armies too, then we are going to be back to the Ad Mecha and DE situation, where everyone else playing all the other factions will wonder what they are doing with their time and money.

Karol wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:


But generally, I don't think they are soo bad, despite a good first weekend.

Take a harli list, give it to another play, and play 10 games vs anything other then tau, custodes and Ad Mecha. If you think they aren't SOO bad. DE weren't SOO bad either. No army that hits a big event, where the best of the best player are, and ends it with almost 80% win rate , including mirrors it gets higher, is not just not SOO bad, it is actually as bad as it looks like. And if we get an army that can easily beat them and all the other armies too, then we are going to be back to the Ad Mecha and DE situation, where everyone else playing all the other factions will wonder what they are doing with their time and money.

For a change i am in complete agreement with Karol here. Harlies are broken as all hell. The GT I recently went to was absolutely insanely dominated by Tau, Custards, Eldar and Harlies. Yeah, when you balance something against the most broken elements of the game it doesn't look that bad, but holy christ those 4 armies are in a game of their own atm. It reminds me of 7th a bit. Everyone else plays over here while the top 3-4 armies duke it out for supremacy.

 Ordana wrote:
"Light doesn't do much if you ignore all the best units in the game"

Hot take there.

Before the Eldar codex came out the top 2 armies were Tau and Custodes. Custodes speaks for itself being entirely BS 2+ and Tau's damage comes from their Commanders who are BS 2+ and Crisis units with BS 3+ (cause ML) and access to ignore modifiers.

You don't care that Light doesn't do much against Guard or Space Marines because those armies are not a threat in the first place

Well, I wasn't making a judgement about the overall impact, which is like a -3 to hit for Custodes, but the rule itself. It's a good approach to hitting elite BS while not penalizing BS4/5, however, the VW platform just makes it a whole other problem.

Either way. Had to deal with fething Custards for 2 months.

Give Trajan the 300 points tag he should have, for all I care. But Aeldari and Harlequins should have at least as long a window as Custodes (continue to) have before they get hit.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Either way. Had to deal with fething Custards for 2 months.

Give Trajan the 300 points tag he should have, for all I care. But Aeldari and Harlequins should have at least as long a window as Custodes (continue to) have before they get hit.

Do you think GW will learn more or are you being childish?

GFdoubles wrote:
you will want to bring a plethora of different unit types instead of just spamming three of the most efficient units in the army.

Why? Voidweavers are tough, have high mobility, and respectable shooting. Harlequins are even decent in close combat. What do you think about this new mission would incentivize someone not to take 9 voidweavers? It's still the best and most efficient unit in the book no matter what your objective is unless it's specifically "kill x models in close combat". I doubt there will be enough cards specifically about killing units in melee to make anything else in the Harlequin arsenal more appealing than more voidweavers



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
8th was more of the same edition churn (remind me, because I seriously don't remember- was it 17, 18, or 19? There are pretty hefty jumps in each of those years, and if its 'definitely' 8th edition, there shouldn't be). That's what I mean by nothing stands out- there's nothing in any of those years where GW was really doing something different or unusual.

You may think its the prime cause of a big jump, to me it was just business as usual, and there were likely other factors at play.

You think the same business model caused them to make less in 2016 than they did in 2009 even without accounting for inflation, and then double their revenue from 2016 to 2018? That absolutely does not happen if you're just doing "business as usual" for that entire time period. When you're investing in a company and doing your DD, you don't notice falling revenue for almost a decade and then doubling revenue in 2 years? It's usually a sign of a new CEO implementing new business strategies. Oh wait, didn't GW replace their CEO during this time? That's like looking out your window one minute and seeing sunshine and everyone jogging in shorts, then an hour later you look out and see snow but you don't think the weather changed.

 vict0988 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Either way. Had to deal with fething Custards for 2 months.

Give Trajan the 300 points tag he should have, for all I care. But Aeldari and Harlequins should have at least as long a window as Custodes (continue to) have before they get hit.

Do you think GW will learn more or are you being childish?

Prob a little of both