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Sunny Side Up wrote:
Either way. Had to deal with fething Custards for 2 months.

Give Trajan the 300 points tag he should have, for all I care. But Aeldari and Harlequins should have at least as long a window as Custodes (continue to) have before they get hit.

Lol, I've actually never seen the community as vindictive and toxic as in the last couple of months and this is a great example.

Tyel wrote:
There's not much point making the same complaint each day - but yes, I think GW have managed to kill "competitive 40k" for the foreseeable future. Just don't play harlequins at your store. (And possibly anyone seriously playing Custodes, Tau, Eldar, Tyranids...)

In practice I expect there will be an emergency FAQ on voidweavers in the next couple of weeks (possibly as soon as next Tuesday) because GW tends to step in when all the professionals are crying together. But they'll probably just push them up 10 points or something. Which will represent a slight nerf, but nowhere near taking them to a sensible point versus most stuff in the game. And Tau/Custodes will still eat anything further down the pecking order etc.

Game is fine...if you remove 20% of the factions. How about if someone is new and only has Custodes or Harlequins? I just got back into 40k after taking a break and selling my armies to put a down payment on a house. If I came back and liked Custodes, why shouldn't I get a game? Why should I have to intentionally buy/build/paint models I don't like or that aren't very good compared to the rest of my codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Since 110-120 points is the cost of a twin las razorback (can't remember it exactly) and the best ork buggies cost 100-115 points I'd definitely up voidweavers to 120 points at least.

Oh and remove squadron too, or giving them the ork buggies solution, aka 0-1 limitation but with the chance of getting a squadron of 3 as single unit.

They'd still be great and lots of players would still max them out, but not game breaking.

leave squadrons, fix pts costs.

the codex options are already anemic, don't force people into the same build all the time.

(ork buggies shouldve been fixed with pts too, not that gakky patch rule)

That's the big problem with limiting any Harlequin unit like that. They have 8 datasheets. Every Harlequin army will look identical if you start limiting them like that. Something needs done to their points and maybe survivability. The amount of shots at any S you have to put into one of those to kill it is way too much for a 100pt model.

Toofast wrote:
Game is fine...if you remove 20% of the factions. How about if someone is new and only has Custodes or Harlequins? I just got back into 40k after taking a break and selling my armies to put a down payment on a house. If I came back and liked Custodes, why shouldn't I get a game? Why should I have to intentionally buy/build/paint models I don't like or that aren't very good compared to the rest of my codex?

Because its a 2 player game?

I mean I'm exaggerating a bit. The Eldar Codex is incredibly new. But if someone said "hey, fancy a game tomorrow, I'm bringing 9 voidweavers and 5 starweavers" - its not unreasonable for me to go "no thanks."

Maybe it would be a fun - or educational - experience. Although I don't see how being torn apart by an army I can barely interact with would be that interesting.

But I've lost a few to Custodes over the last 10(?) weeks and... yeah. I don't think there's much I can do about it.
There's some bias. I don't like the army. I don't like their fluff. I don't like their models. I don't really like how they play. I didn't like it when they hid behind a 3++ - and I don't like them abusing transhuman and no rerolls now. I have powerful feelings about Custodes comparable to how I felt about 5th edition GK. If in 10th edition they were thrown into a non-competitive void for the rest of the 2020s, I wouldn't be that upset about it.

(You don't need to post "but but but, I love Custodes" - thats fine. Different people like different things. But again, its a 2 player game. People got sick of my DE and the turn 2 tidalwave of death all through last summer and I wouldn't be surprised if people want a similar fate for them.)

Custodes don't have a 3++ anymore

It all depends on your local meta, the Internet and nothing discussed here represents the game as a whole. You can play your custodes or your harlequins or your DE, AD what ever. Just see what your local meta is and if it is not the tournament style just leave some stuff at home, agree on a higher point cost to pay etc.
If you only want to play with 9 Voidweavers, Trajann etc. and your local meta does not like that then you are sadly in the wrong circle for the game you want to play.
Limitations and adjustments to what GW proposes how their game is played is something our group does since the change to 4th edition. And it never came to pages upon pages of adjustments just a couple of tweeks, e.g. wraithknights +100Pts, LOW only after both sides agreed etc.

Just play with 200 fewer points, that'll curb the power level a tonne and you can take your Voidweavers with their protoplasm cannons and Jedi powers and feel good about having found a list that lets you win with no more than 1800 pts.

What if it still beats the other armies. 200pts is a character and a support unit. if most of your armies power comes from 9 weavers and other gunboats, the army woulnd't be losing that much power. Maybe units should have progressive costing on them. 90pts for first, but then if you run 4+ it costs more, and if you run 9 it should be really expensive. And GW could hire playtesters and check how much stuff should be up. 4 rhinos,4x land raiders , 4x10 boys? probably don't require much or any points hike. But if you are starting to buy the 4th NDK it should very much cost more.

Or you know, resist the urge(no matter how strong) to not take that 4th NDK...

Oh wait I forgot your hellscape.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Either way. Had to deal with fething Custards for 2 months.

Give Trajan the 300 points tag he should have, for all I care. But Aeldari and Harlequins should have at least as long a window as Custodes (continue to) have before they get hit.

Lol. Good way to prove you don't care about balance and just want yourself benefit.

Tiberias wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Either way. Had to deal with fething Custards for 2 months.

Give Trajan the 300 points tag he should have, for all I care. But Aeldari and Harlequins should have at least as long a window as Custodes (continue to) have before they get hit.

Lol, I've actually never seen the community as vindictive and toxic as in the last couple of months and this is a great example.

There‘s probably never been as toxic and disruptive as Custodes.

Racerguy180 wrote:
Or you know, resist the urge(no matter how strong) to not take that 4th NDK...

Oh wait I forgot your hellscape.

Friend. My army has exactly 0 NDKs in it. and 5 interceptors, and I would run 0 if I had other options. GK are in a worse situation then harlis with their unit options. A harli player can soup them up in to CWE or DE, he can run 3-6 or even 0 voids and replace them with options from CWE/DE. A GK player has no such option. A foot GK master or Librarian is a horrible option. having no fast moving moving threat unit with inv/-1D means a GK list can not only try to take and hold mid table, but also makes it impossible for the army to even reach melee. And if GK can not reach melee, then their chance of winning with storm bolter fire is , what I would describe low, specially as the heavy weapon options in squads are, you guessed it, horrible. Now you can of course say that GK can just run razorbacks etc for their heavy weapon/long range support. Only that doesn't even work for cheaper regular marines.

So yeah the "hellscape" I was describing is every GK army, specially the new ones that poped out after the codex dropped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up 803732 11338549 wrote:

There‘s probably never been as toxic and disruptive as Custodes.

No this is classic eldar players. Other factions good, w40k is ending , GW hates eldar players and eldar as a faction, even if they have top armies. Eldar actually break the game with a new codex rules, we start to see , wait and see being said, the meta will adjust, future army X will balance eldar, get gud and its cousin , I never play with the OP units.

SemperMortis wrote:
Umm...Ironically, yes Snaggaz do in fact have their own Strats and Relics.

But they're not in their own section. They're not a whole separate mini-Dex within the Ork Codex.

I mean, Hive Fleet Kraken has its own Relic and Strat, but you wouldn't say that playing Kraken is the same as playing Harlis.

SemperMortis wrote:
GW literally has no idea WTF they are doing with orkz and hasnt for so long that its astounding they still have a relatively large group of players buying their stuff.

I don't disagree with anything else you said. The sudden inclusion of 'Beastsnaggaz' struck me as really odd, given that all the units just appear have a "Why aren't these just unique Snakebite units?" air to them.

all the latest threads about OP DE,AD,Custodes,Harlequins etc. just illustrate that there is no 40K that is universally played everyone plays their own version dictated by the meta they find themselves in or want to participate in.
I stay clear of any real tournaments because i would curse my life if i would run into one of the top Lists. The truth is for me no one is forcing anyone to play anything. If your regular opponents want to play a different 40K then you would enjoy, there are 4 options:
a) convert them
b) convert yourself
c) change the group
d) stop playing

yes d) is only a last resort but why constantly let yourself be bullied if you can easily avoid it? I would rather stop playing and look for a new hobby then getting frustrated on weekends after work life did that the last 5 days already

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Either way. Had to deal with fething Custards for 2 months.

Give Trajan the 300 points tag he should have, for all I care. But Aeldari and Harlequins should have at least as long a window as Custodes (continue to) have before they get hit.

Lol, I've actually never seen the community as vindictive and toxic as in the last couple of months and this is a great example.

There‘s probably never been as toxic and disruptive as Custodes.

I think you're a teensy bit biased here.

Tyel wrote:

Because its a 2 player game?

is it?
At least I have the feeling while you can turn it into a 2 player game by adding house rules and comps (and saying you are not playing against certain lists is exactly this), it is not made as such by default

 kodos wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Because its a 2 player game?

is it?
At least I have the feeling while you can turn it into a 2 player game by adding house rules and comps (and saying you are not playing against certain lists is exactly this), it is not made as such by default

Do you think the person on the other side of the table is a robot or something?

Maybe I'm missing the point...but... what?

Tyel wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Because its a 2 player game?

is it?
At least I have the feeling while you can turn it into a 2 player game by adding house rules and comps (and saying you are not playing against certain lists is exactly this), it is not made as such by default

Do you think the person on the other side of the table is a robot or something?

Maybe I'm missing the point...but... what?

No, it definitely doesn't make sense. Unless kodos thinks you meant 2 per side?

With the current version you are playing against the game and the list not against the other player

Karol wrote:

No this is classic eldar players. Other factions good, w40k is ending , GW hates eldar players and eldar as a faction, even if they have top armies. Eldar actually break the game with a new codex rules, we start to see , wait and see being said, the meta will adjust, future army X will balance eldar, get gud and its cousin , I never play with the OP units.

I don't play Eldar. But go on.

 kodos wrote:
With the current version you are playing against the game and the list not against the other player

That's a very roundabout way of having a go at 40k.

it is the best way how I would describe 9th by now and late 7th was similar

with the main point is that you try to beat the game, while trying to beat the opponent comes 2nd

the whole MTG combo playstyle and keeping up with the releases plays into to that

which is also a reason why it is so hard to get into the game at a specific level or be to new guy to a group that already plays for a while

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Either way. Had to deal with fething Custards for 2 months.

Give Trajan the 300 points tag he should have, for all I care. But Aeldari and Harlequins should have at least as long a window as Custodes (continue to) have before they get hit.

Lol, I've actually never seen the community as vindictive and toxic as in the last couple of months and this is a great example.

There‘s probably never been as toxic and disruptive as Custodes.

LMAO! Nope, Eldar win that award hands down for their shenanigans from 5th to 8th. Nothing like playing a friendly game and having your opponent plop down 2 wraithknights and 3 mobz of Scatbikes

Or in 6th where they just ran around the entire time spamming their transports which could lash out with their shields. or in 8th where they had a list that had -2 and -3 to hit across the board which made them functionally immune to return fire. Or, god how did i forget this, herohammer in 7th where they ran around with un-targetable death stars and psychic shenanigans.

Nope, Custards are obscenely OP right now, but Eldar have historically been top dog, especially at being toxic about it. Go back through this forum 6-10 years and go read some of the nonsense Eldar players were posting, defending their broken OP units.

SemperMortis wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Either way. Had to deal with fething Custards for 2 months.

Give Trajan the 300 points tag he should have, for all I care. But Aeldari and Harlequins should have at least as long a window as Custodes (continue to) have before they get hit.

Lol, I've actually never seen the community as vindictive and toxic as in the last couple of months and this is a great example.

There‘s probably never been as toxic and disruptive as Custodes.

LMAO! Nope, Eldar win that award hands down for their shenanigans from 5th to 8th. Nothing like playing a friendly game and having your opponent plop down 2 wraithknights and 3 mobz of Scatbikes

Or in 6th where they just ran around the entire time spamming their transports which could lash out with their shields. or in 8th where they had a list that had -2 and -3 to hit across the board which made them functionally immune to return fire. Or, god how did i forget this, herohammer in 7th where they ran around with un-targetable death stars and psychic shenanigans.

Nope, Custards are obscenely OP right now, but Eldar have historically been top dog, especially at being toxic about it. Go back through this forum 6-10 years and go read some of the nonsense Eldar players were posting, defending their broken OP units.

Eldar players are very entitled. I'd like to that's a stereotype but every forum I've visited AND every Eldar player I've played against has proven me otherwise.

SemperMortis wrote:
LMAO! Nope, Eldar win that award hands down for their shenanigans from 5th to 8th. Nothing like playing a friendly game and having your opponent plop down 2 wraithknights and 3 mobz of Scatbikes

That's GW's fault. We know how Wraithknight balancing went - it was dictated to be overpowered by the suits.

EviscerationPlague wrote:


Eldar players are very entitled.

I can't comment on your personal experiences, but I'm not sure this is entirely fair.

When I think about marines, it's difficult for me to see any other faction as entitled. I mean, let's say for the sake of argument that eldar have some OP units in every edition, and that the players staunchly defend those units from criticism or even actively revel in the success of those units.

They've still got half the range of marines, and much of that is still resin even after a major release; they occupy less than a tenth of the marine content in video games, comics, WH+ animations, BL books, etc, etc.

And I know that right now, Marines aren't all that on the competitive scene, and I know you're primarily talking about entitlement in terms of power as opposed to representation- from that POV I can see your point. But I think some of what makes non-marine players of any stripe defensive is that all of us know we're all just NPCS in a universe that revolves around marines- whether as allies or enemies or allies so when GW throws us a bone- any kind of bone, we tend to defend it.

Eldar players who for months held the game in a grip of over 60% win rates, went insane as soon as they got replaced by IH as the top army.

Every codex they always get is broken good. Eldar players problems in sports terms can be sumerised as, we only have 4 cold baths, our bus doesn't have nice paint on it and our team shirts are old. We are crushing every competion for the last 30 years, but our year books look wack.

In wargame hobby, which is about playing a wargame, always having at worse very good rules, and not being happy about it 100% of times sound entitled. Take 9th. At start eldar had soups and harlies. Then they had DE to play with, now they have CWE, DE and harlis to play with, and soup up, when everyone else can't soup. They didn't have even a full edition when their rules were bad. Now take someone like csm on the other hand. Last time they were good, in what 4th ed, or was it 5th? They have a reason to be unhappy. GK good for a short time in 5th, then really really bad till end of 9th. Marines, the poster children of w40k, ton of models and most of them are bad, and most don't translate to next editions. Orks jump between good and horrible for years. IG can be great or terrible for entire editions. Eldar are nothing like that, they have rich people problems.

Karol wrote:
Eldar players who for months held the game in a grip of over 60% win rates, went insane as soon as they got replaced by IH as the top army.

Every codex they always get is broken good. Eldar players problems in sports terms can be sumerised as, we only have 4 cold baths, our bus doesn't have nice paint on it and our team shirts are old. We are crushing every competion for the last 30 years, but our year books look wack.

In wargame hobby, which is about playing a wargame, always having at worse very good rules, and not being happy about it 100% of times sound entitled. Take 9th. At start eldar had soups and harlies. Then they had DE to play with, now they have CWE, DE and harlis to play with, and soup up, when everyone else can't soup. They didn't have even a full edition when their rules were bad. Now take someone like csm on the other hand. Last time they were good, in what 4th ed, or was it 5th? They have a reason to be unhappy. GK good for a short time in 5th, then really really bad till end of 9th. Marines, the poster children of w40k, ton of models and most of them are bad, and most don't translate to next editions. Orks jump between good and horrible for years. IG can be great or terrible for entire editions. Eldar are nothing like that, they have rich people problems.

Well hey, Karol, you play GK. Just soup in some Black Templars if GK are bad! Or switch to White Scars!

You shouldn't simultaneously say "I play GK, and nothing else!" and "Eldar have it good-they can play as Eldar, DE, or Harlis based on what's good!"

Everyone's entitled....


To being beatdown by the latest hotness!


Which is fething lame. But the current product development cycle dictates that those that will lap it up, will & those that dont...don't... lapped. Then the rest of us are left picking up the pieces of the shattered pickup game @ FLGS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Karol wrote:
Eldar players who for months held the game in a grip of over 60% win rates, went insane as soon as they got replaced by IH as the top army.

Every codex they always get is broken good. Eldar players problems in sports terms can be sumerised as, we only have 4 cold baths, our bus doesn't have nice paint on it and our team shirts are old. We are crushing every competion for the last 30 years, but our year books look wack.

In wargame hobby, which is about playing a wargame, always having at worse very good rules, and not being happy about it 100% of times sound entitled. Take 9th. At start eldar had soups and harlies. Then they had DE to play with, now they have CWE, DE and harlis to play with, and soup up, when everyone else can't soup. They didn't have even a full edition when their rules were bad. Now take someone like csm on the other hand. Last time they were good, in what 4th ed, or was it 5th? They have a reason to be unhappy. GK good for a short time in 5th, then really really bad till end of 9th. Marines, the poster children of w40k, ton of models and most of them are bad, and most don't translate to next editions. Orks jump between good and horrible for years. IG can be great or terrible for entire editions. Eldar are nothing like that, they have rich people problems.

Well hey, Karol, you play GK. Just soup in some Black Templars if GK are bad! Or switch to White Scars!

You shouldn't simultaneously say "I play GK, and nothing else!" and "Eldar have it good-they can play as Eldar, DE, or Harlis based on what's good!"

you forget Karol bought a bridge in Brooklyn when they purchased their army from the local hellmonger.

Karol wrote:
Eldar players who for months held the game in a grip of over 60% win rates, went insane as soon as they got replaced by IH as the top army.

I mean, the "players" didn't change. When Eldar were the hot stuff in 40K in 8th, people like Nick Nanavati and Mani Cheema were playing them. When IH were the hotness, they won the tournaments with them.

It's not like any long-term, genuine Eldar or IH or later Drukhari or whatever fans got any value or joy or worth out of the tournament crowd taking a turn at "their" army.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I mean, the "players" didn't change. When Eldar were the hot stuff in 40K in 8th, people like Nick Nanavati and Mani Cheema were playing them. When IH were the hotness, they won the tournaments with them.

It's not like any long-term, genuine Eldar or IH or later Drukhari or whatever fans got any value or joy or worth out of the tournament crowd taking a turn at "their" army.

LVO: If you only knew the power of the competitive meta. The Forums never told you what happened to Kaldor Draigo.
Karol : They told me enough! They told me *Eldar* killed him!
LVO: No. *I* abused GK all through late 5th, resulting in GW nerfing them into oblivion.
Karol : No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!