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Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:
Actually it DOES define range. In the Shooting Section.

In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic)

Yeas, that doers not define the term "range"

Read the whole sentence.

range=within the distance of the Range characteristic

To paraphrase you - It comes from the English language - i.e. ABBREVIATION
that is to say (used to add explanatory information or to state something in different words).

Or did you finally quote something in support and I missed it?

And now do not ignore the context...

Here is the full quote " In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic) of the weapon being used and be visible to the shooting model."

As told, it doesn't define range, it defines how you determine if you are able to target for shooting and shooting alone

 DeathReaper wrote:


Here is the full quote " In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic) of the weapon being used and be visible to the shooting model."

And? Within range = i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic drop the two withins and Range = the distance of the range characteristic.

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Here is the full quote "In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic) of the weapon being used and be visible to the shooting model."

And? Within range = i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic drop the two withins and Range = the distance of the range characteristic.

And now do not ignore the context...

It tells you how you determine if you are able to target for shooting, that is all it does.

To say that they define the general term "range" there, well that breaks the whole game and makes it unplayable. Therefore that can not be the correct interpretation, and it must only apply to defining range for targeting purposes.

We still kicking a poorly-written rule to death instead of doing something useful?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
We still kicking a poorly-written rule to death instead of doing something useful?

It is not really all that "poorly-written" tbh.

It is quite clear to most what the RAW is.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
We still kicking a poorly-written rule to death instead of doing something useful?

It is not really all that "poorly-written" tbh.

It is quite clear to most what the RAW is.

Indeed. It could be laid out better, and you can use the grots as a literal shield (as models cannot move through them) from being charged which feels unintended.

Lastly, if you don't like discussions Johnny, no need to post saying so. You could hit report, and see if a mod wants to close the thread. Your post adds nothing and attacks people posting, which is definitely "not doing anything useful"

In the first ever ork army list, characters could take 'as many non-combatant gretchin assistants as you want for no extra points'.

 DeathReaper wrote:


It tells you how you determine if you are able to target for shooting, that is all it does.

To say that they define the general term "range" there, well that breaks the whole game and makes it unplayable. Therefore that can not be the correct interpretation, and it must only apply to defining range for targeting purposes.

OK so we have to interpret all the OTHER rules to not break the game, except the ones you want?

And for the guy who keeps trying to imply people don't understand English, you sure are ignoring the plain English usage of i.e.

Within range = i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic drop the two withins and Range = the distance of the range characteristic.

No, we interpret all the rules to not break the game.

Why did you post about "Within range" we have shown that only applies to shooting.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, we interpret all the rules to not break the game.

Why did you post about "Within range" we have shown that only applies to shooting.

We have shown that only applies to shooting because I had declared it thusly?

Also - continuing down this "plain English" route - and don't forget I tried to warn you with the Grandmaster/Supreme Grandmaster thing - you're ignoring a little context here...

his means that the crew models cannot be targeted or attacked separately and that visibility and all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.

Visibility and range -

In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic) of the weapon being used and be visible to the shooting model.

visibility and range.

This rule may be a RAW mess, but the RAI and HIWPI are rather clear:

RAI: The Grots don't count. Place them within 1" of the gun, but ignore them for games purposes. This is why they don't have stats.

HIWPI: The Grots are pretty models with no game effect. Keep them within 1" of the Mek Gun, but move them as necessary to keep them from affecting gameplay. Or place the Mek Gun and the Grots on a single base to make life easier for everyone.

 alextroy wrote:


HIWPI: The Grots are pretty models with no game effect. Keep them within 1" of the Mek Gun, but move them as necessary to keep them from affecting gameplay. Or place the Mek Gun and the Grots on a single base to make life easier for everyone.

That's pretty much what I would do - put them on a base and use the grots as wound counters, pulling one grot per wound on the gun. 6 grots - 6 wounds. That last wound is the grot on the observer's platform because he's probably glued in and it's time to remove the model anyway.

If I were writing the rules, I'd drop (most of) the attacks on the gun, give the grots back their stat profile, and copy/paste the Thunderfire artillery/crew rules. I've no idea why they reinvented the wheel here. The Gun attacks (6 at S2) are presumably representing the Grots defending their gun.

The problem with your RAI is if you ignore them for game purposes you can go over them, to the gun. And people have already pooh-pooh'ed that idea.

I'm actually getting swayed to RAI/HIWPI by my own point about range and visibility. The fact that those two are together in the rule and in the shooting phase rules, and lists are supposed to be related solves a lot of problems. "Visibility and range" in the rule context refers to the shooting phase and thus the visibility and range as defined in the shooting phase. So Engagement Range isn't a rule referenced by ranges in the rule, nor are any of the other things - movement, deployment, explosions, nearest enemy unit - I've pointed out aren't a range when people claimed all measurement is a range.

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, we interpret all the rules to not break the game.

Why did you post about "Within range" we have shown that only applies to shooting.

We have shown that only applies to shooting because I had declared it thusly?

Also - continuing down this "plain English" route - and don't forget I tried to warn you with the Grandmaster/Supreme Grandmaster thing - you're ignoring a little context here...

his means that the crew models cannot be targeted or attacked separately and that visibility and all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.

Visibility and range -

In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic) of the weapon being used and be visible to the shooting model.

visibility and range.

Yea, that is not the rules for visibility and range. That is the rules for Selecting Targets in the shooting phase. But nice try with the strawman.


Grandmaster/Supreme Grandmaster thing has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, and I am not the one ignoring the context.

Yeo, keywords has no relevance here.