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brainpsyk wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:

I would love to see a rehabilitation of our infantry, but with Robin Cruddace still heading the rules, what we will probably get is focus on tanks, tanks and tanks. I doubt we would get significant point rebates though. As for the BS3+, I suspect we will have our LRBT tank commanders reduced to 1 per detachment, as they do with many recent codexes (Tau, Tyranids). So fewer BS3+.

As long as LRBTs are fixed, fewer BS3 shouldn't be a problem. TCs are a crutch we have to lean on because they are one of the 2 datasheets that have play in 9th.

I can hang with the "tanks, tanks and tanks". Somebody is going to get the short end of my 17 LRBTs

Sorry, but you have way too many Leman Russes.

LRBT may not get the fix you dream of, because they already issued it : we got 2+ saves in a dataslate, in advance of our codex, and a -10 points rebate on the basic one (not tank commander). The tank commander, OTOH got tank orders that can be issued to other IG vehicles. This leads me to think that GW studio decided that : "For the Leman Russ, job is done, let's concentrate on the other vehicles.".

But maybe there will be some serious modifications to the LRBT's turret weapons profiles list. Because it is a mess. The best selections are among the cheapest, while off-meta ones are horribly priced (exterminator anyone ?). Then there is the very possibility that grinding advance double-shoot rule will go away. GW has got rid of double shoot rules in recent codexes after all. This may spark the need of weapons profiles rewrites, to compensate.

Hey, I'd take a chimera packing an ordnance weapon... Give it an ability to be a tank commander, and give orders to the disembarked troops, like say one that allows them to bypass morale checks while they perform an action.

 JNAProductions wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seeing as how it's something of a banality now, make Lasguns S4,and give them a sliding "To wound" modifier based off how many Flashlights hit the target (Say +1 per 5). So if a whole max squad of conscripts fire on a Warboss, and takes 15 hits, each one hit's with a +3 to wound.

Then make them ignore invulns if more than 15 shots hit the same target. Actually, give them a strategy that does the same thing. If Abbadon get's his 15 times with lasgun shots in a single turn, they all wound on 3's and only FNP can stop the wounds. Make it 3CP and call it "Target fix" or some other nonsense.

That's a joke, right?

Yeah. I thought the killing abby with 15 lasgun shots would have given it away. pardon the lack of /s.

 carldooley wrote:
Hey, I'd take a chimera packing an ordnance weapon... Give it an ability to be a tank commander, and give orders to the disembarked troops, like say one that allows them to bypass morale checks while they perform an action.

Or let Chimera's have the Predator Autocannon :-D.

And that's why I want Platoons back, with Orders being Auras that affect the entire platoon (including dedicated Transports, or attached LRBTs).

Heavy Flamer in the hull, Predator AC in the turret, coordinated firing at a target with the nearby infantry. Combined arms WWII vs. Aliens.

 carldooley wrote:
Hey, I'd take a chimera packing an ordnance weapon... Give it an ability to be a tank commander, and give orders to the disembarked troops, like say one that allows them to bypass morale checks while they perform an action.

So...a Basilisk? Sorry, a command Basilisk?

 Ravajaxe wrote:
But maybe there will be some serious modifications to the LRBT's turret weapons profiles list. Because it is a mess. The best selections are among the cheapest, while off-meta ones are horribly priced (exterminator anyone ?).

In terms of current datasheets the Russes should look like:
- Vanquisher: 110 points.
- Eradicator: 115 points.
- Exterminator: 115 points.
- Executioner: 120 points.
- Battle Tank: 125 points.
- Demolisher: 130 points.
- Punisher: 130 points.

Tank Commanders should be 50 points + cost of Leman Russ. With their Tank Orders increased to 18 inch range and have the ability to give 2 orders per turn.

This would make Russes largely viable with the current book.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Then there is the very possibility that grinding advance double-shoot rule will go away. GW has got rid of double shoot rules in recent codexes after all. This may spark the need of weapons profiles rewrites, to compensate.

It will go away. Eldar and Nids both lost their versions of Grinding Advance now. Likely we'll see something like:

- Vanquisher: Heavy 1. S14. AP-4. D3 + 6 damage. Each time an attack is made with this weapon against a VEHICLE or MONSTER unit, add 1 to that attack's hit roll.
- Eradicator: Heavy 3D3. S6. AP-2. 2 damage. Blast. Each time an attack is made with this weapon, the target does not receive the benefits of Dense Cover against that attack.
- Exterminator. Heavy 4D3. S7. AP-1. 2 damage.
- Executioner (standard): Heavy D6. S7. AP-3. 2 damage. Blast.
- Executioner (overcharge): Heavy D6. S8. AP-3. 3 damage. Blast. Each time an unmodified hit roll of 1 is made for an attack with this weapon profile, the bearer suffers 1 mortal wound after shooting with this weapon.
- Battle Tank: Heavy D6. S8. AP-2. 3 damage. Blast.
- Demolisher: Not sure.
- Punisher: Heavy 20. S5. AP-1. 1 damage.

We'll probably see Russes get more wounds too. I imagine around 14 wounds. With the new tank being 16 wounds.

 carldooley wrote:
Hey, I'd take a chimera packing an ordnance weapon... Give it an ability to be a tank commander, and give orders to the disembarked troops, like say one that allows them to bypass morale checks while they perform an action.

It does exist. It's the Chimedon. It's a Chimera with a battle cannon.

First of @ Jarms: I agree that this is a good proposition/idea, the following is just personal wishlisting that I don't think will come true:

I would find it more interesting, if the Exterminator and Eradicator would get some special gimmicky extra ability instead of just upping their output (it might be upped additionally). Just to mix things up a bit. For the Exterminator if would be pretty cool if it could function as stop-gap air defense as mentioned in the fluff (ignore the -1 to hit for aircraft or something, would have to be balanced against the hydra) and for the Eradicator I could see it get some indirect fire ability (It might be just me but the described special ammunition to get enemies in cover sounds more like some low velocity howitzer than a less powerful direct fire battlecannon to me)

I would like a Command Chimera - if a Leman Russ TC is a platoon officer equivalent the Chimera would be a Company officer equivalent.
Give it a reduced transport capacity, say 6 men, and the ability to issue orders to any vehicle anywhere (because obviously it's got a vox).

Part of the reason Grinding Advance was implemented is because 1d6 shots on your singular main gun is just not sufficient to be useful on a 150-200pt MBT.

Much was made of the Hammerhead railgun, but the reality is that's what it takes for a single shot single main gun to be viable in the farce that is modern 40k lethality.

I agree I would like Grinding Advance to be gone, but it needs to be accounted for with almost a doubling of inherent turret firepower.

I mean the problem with the Exterminator is that it went from heavy 4, twin linked, to just heavy 4. The whole point was that each shot didn't have as much oomph to it, but it was able to pump out extra hits due to the twin link allowing rerolls. The rerolls is why it was actually useful at times as makeshift anti-air - you effectively got 8 chances to score a hit. To bring that paradigm back, it might be simpler to give the Exterminator just a blanket +1 to hit, as the either targeting systems or tracer rounds thrown out allow the gunners to compensate better and aim more easily.

Part of the reason Grinding Advance was implemented is because 1d6 shots on your singular main gun is just not sufficient to be useful on a 150-200pt MBT.

Much was made of the Hammerhead railgun, but the reality is that's what it takes for a single shot single main gun to be viable in the farce that is modern 40k lethality.

Yep, but this is what GW will do. Assuming the same suggested points and weapon changes above I imagine GW will make the new tank look like this.

Leman Russ Battle Tank:
- Points: 125.
- Statline: M10". WS6+. BS4+. S7. T8. W14. A3. Ld7. Sv2+.
- Battle cannon: 72". Heavy D6. S8. AP-2. Damage 3.

New Tank (Rogal Dorn Battle Tank?):
- Points: 160.
- Statline: M10". WS6+. BS4+. S7. T8. W16. A3. Ld7. Sv2+.
- Twin battle cannon: 72". Heavy 2D6. S8. AP-2. Damage 3.

Just look at the Castigator or the Defiler. Both have battle cannons and both are 1D6. Look at Orks with the Killkannon 1D6 there now too with no double shoot. If we're lucky we might get a rule similar to the Gunwagon making our "Turret Weapons" get a +1 to Hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I would find it more interesting, if the Exterminator and Eradicator would get some special gimmicky extra ability instead of just upping their output (it might be upped additionally). Just to mix things up a bit. For the Exterminator if would be pretty cool if it could function as stop-gap air defense as mentioned in the fluff (ignore the -1 to hit for aircraft or something, would have to be balanced against the hydra) and for the Eradicator I could see it get some indirect fire ability (It might be just me but the described special ammunition to get enemies in cover sounds more like some low velocity howitzer than a less powerful direct fire battlecannon to me)

The only reason it was used in AA roles in the lore is desperation and its ability to "throw a lot of lead in the air". The issue is, this is old lore and before the Punisher existed. So arguably the Punisher would be better in this role. Just compare a Phalanx CIWS and a modern 40mm Bofors.

Jarms48 wrote:

The only reason it was used in AA roles in the lore is desperation and its ability to "throw a lot of lead in the air". The issue is, this is old lore and before the Punisher existed. So arguably the Punisher would be better in this role. Just compare a Phalanx CIWS and a modern 40mm Bofors.

Doing exactly that: Phalanx: max range 3.5 km, "destroying range" 1.5km (according to wikipedia at least)
Bofors 40mm/L70: max range 12.5 km
As far as I know the Phalanx is more of a defense system, the Bofors is meant to shoot down planes. Hence why the cannon armed flak tanks (Gepard (Germany), Tungutska (Russia), Markman (GB), Leara (Poland), Type 87 (Japan), K30 (South Korea)) all use/used autocannons (around 30-35mm), while the only system using gatling guns (US M163 Vulcan) had fairly limited range (in the range of 1.2-1.8km max as far as I understand) limiting it's usefulness in an AA role. I might be wrong though.

They should bring back twin link. It would be a good way to give guard rerolls on certain units (and, most importantly, we could start making the "how do you make a lasgun twin linked?" joke again)

 kirotheavenger wrote:


I agree I would like Grinding Advance to be gone, but it needs to be accounted for with almost a doubling of inherent turret firepower.

So halve the tank cost and sell more tanks!

Jarms48 wrote:

Yep, but this is what GW will do. Assuming the same suggested points and weapon changes above I imagine GW will make the new tank look like this.

Leman Russ Battle Tank:
- Points: 125.
- Statline: M10". WS6+. BS4+. S7. T8. W14. A3. Ld7. Sv2+.
- Battle cannon: 72". Heavy D6. S8. AP-2. Damage 3.

New Tank (Rogal Dorn Battle Tank?):
- Points: 160.
- Statline: M10". WS6+. BS4+. S7. T8. W16. A3. Ld7. Sv2+.
- Twin battle cannon: 72". Heavy 2D6. S8. AP-2. Damage 3.

Just look at the Castigator or the Defiler. Both have battle cannons and both are 1D6. Look at Orks with the Killkannon 1D6 there now too with no double shoot. If we're lucky we might get a rule similar to the Gunwagon making our "Turret Weapons" get a +1 to Hit.

Several problems here:
1 - The castigator is BS3
2 - The Chaos codex hasn't dropped yet
3 - Those are support units, not the main killing power of the army.

4 - There's just not enough shots on that BC, Without something major, the BC is only going to kill 1 model, whether it is 2D or 3D, it's still 1 model. I saw a game the other day where 10 dire avengers (120 points) picked up a 20-man blob of rangers (with strats and re-rolls). 3D on 1 model just isn't going to cut it. Granted, that's what the Punisher is for, but with only d6 shots, even at 3D, that BC is worse than we have today.

2d6 Dd3 LR battlecannon shots vs. intercessor No Mods mean: 3.9 μ=3.0 σ=2.9 d6 D3 LR battlecannon shots vs. intercessor No Mods mean: 3.0 μ=3.0 σ=3.0

brainpsyk wrote:

2 - The Chaos codex hasn't dropped yet

Thousand sons and Death guard have the new datasheet for the Defiler

brainpsyk wrote:

2 - The Chaos codex hasn't dropped yet

Sure, but TSon and Death Guard are. Both have the new Defiler profile.

brainpsyk wrote:

4 - There's just not enough shots on that BC, Without something major, the BC is only going to kill 1 model, whether it is 2D or 3D, it's still 1 model. I saw a game the other day where 10 dire avengers (120 points) picked up a 20-man blob of rangers (with strats and re-rolls). 3D on 1 model just isn't going to cut it. Granted, that's what the Punisher is for, but with only d6 shots, even at 3D, that BC is worse than we have today.

2d6 Dd3 LR battlecannon shots vs. intercessor No Mods mean: 3.9 μ=3.0 σ=2.9 d6 D3 LR battlecannon shots vs. intercessor No Mods mean: 3.0 μ=3.0 σ=3.0

I know it's bad, that's my tongue and cheek at how GW will undercut the Russ to sell their new tank. Why else make another tank and not a vehicle that Guard actually need?

Just please stop giving guard irrelevant crap they don't need or ever use. 3 types of Hell Hounds, 2 types of Sentinel, 5-10 types of LR. Just reduce the bloat, and make what's left actually good. Make the Vanquisher H1 72" AP5 3d6 damage against vehicles.

I really wonder what if any changes will occur with Conscripts and Commissars?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Hey, I'd take a chimera packing an ordnance weapon... Give it an ability to be a tank commander, and give orders to the disembarked troops, like say one that allows them to bypass morale checks while they perform an action.

So...a Basilisk? Sorry, a command Basilisk?

You have my attention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just please stop giving guard irrelevant crap they don't need or ever use. 3 types of Hell Hounds, 2 types of Sentinel, 5-10 types of LR. Just reduce the bloat, and make what's left actually good. Make the Vanquisher H1 72" AP5 3d6 damage against vehicles.

I really wonder what if any changes will occur with Conscripts and Commissars?

Feels like less of an arguement to remove those things and more an argument to improve internal balance so more options are viable.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just please stop giving guard irrelevant crap they don't need or ever use. 3 types of Hell Hounds, 2 types of Sentinel, 5-10 types of LR. Just reduce the bloat, and make what's left actually good. Make the Vanquisher H1 72" AP5 3d6 damage against vehicles.

I really wonder what if any changes will occur with Conscripts and Commissars?

It isn't bloat though. Leman russ tanks are sold in 2 kits, hellhounds 1, and sentinels 1. The different unit entries are just the same thing with different main weapons for the most part. Now you could potentially just have leman russ entry with the standard battle cannon, and then have the option to switch to an eradicator nova cannon, etc.

Its really not bloated as is. Just the same hull with different main guns.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
...3 types of Hell Hounds, 2 types of Sentinel, 5-10 types of LR...

Ah, I see you've completely forgotten all the posts that pointed out how wrong this was from the last time you typed it.

Sure, but TSon and Death Guard are. Both have the new Defiler profile.

brainpsyk wrote:

Whoosh... (that's the sound of that joke going right over my head...)

Why does GW do anything? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Sorry, they're british: ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££

That's all good. Though thinking about it. It'd probably be something stupid like this. I really do think GW are going to make the Russes firepower worse. Just look at the Gunwagon. Basically they'll remove the double shoot. Buff the damage, and have some kind of ability to give it +1 to Hit. Whatever the new tank will be, will just be better.





So basically flat 3 damage battle cannon like we see on the Defiler and Castigator. +1 to Hit on turret weapons, to keep that rule around. More wounds and -1 damage to make it more durable. Whatever the new tank is, it'll be aggressively costed. I imagine it'll be similar to a smaller Macharius, basically 2 russes strapped together with twin Russ turret weapons and twin hull heavy bolters.

Jarms48 wrote:
I imagine it'll be similar to a smaller Macharius, basically 2 russes strapped together with twin Russ turret weapons and twin hull heavy bolters.

I still don't know why it has to mount a bog-standard battle cannon (but TWICE!). Why not just give it a Trollslayer Battle Cannon that has a separate moving/stationary profile with the stationary getting +X for everything. Why normal heavy bolters when you can have Ironbark Heavy Bolters that are Heavy 4 and AP -2? Why plasma cannons and not Plasma War Culverins? And so on and so forth. Why only a turret, a hull, and two sponson weapons when it can have, like, 4 more turret weapons and an extra pair of sponsons too? Maybe a transport capacity of 6? All for free, of course. If we want to fix the Leman Russ by making up a different tank then why settle with a not!LemanRuss with some crappy bandaid tackled on it instead of just reinventing the wheel from the ground up and making the new tank legit new, fresh, and super awesome?

Jarms48 wrote:

That's all good. Though thinking about it. It'd probably be something stupid like this. I really do think GW are going to make the Russes firepower worse. Just look at the Gunwagon. Basically they'll remove the double shoot. Buff the damage, and have some kind of ability to give it +1 to Hit. Whatever the new tank will be, will just be better.

So basically flat 3 damage battle cannon like we see on the Defiler and Castigator. +1 to Hit on turret weapons, to keep that rule around. More wounds and -1 damage to make it more durable. Whatever the new tank is, it'll be aggressively costed. I imagine it'll be similar to a smaller Macharius, basically 2 russes strapped together with twin Russ turret weapons and twin hull heavy bolters.

If GW is that stupid, where they take an almost useless LRBT and make it worse, then the entire AM codex is DOA. Literally a BC d6 shots with BS4 is 1 model. With the +1 to hit, it's ~2 models.

Even Dire Avengers at 60 points is FAR FAR better:
5xdireAvenger w/AvengerCatapult vs. intercessor No Mods mean: 3.3 μ=3.0 σ=1.7 d6 LR battlecannon @3D vs. intercessor No Mods mean: 2.9 μ=3.0 σ=2.9 2d6 LR battlecannon shots @ d3D vs. intercessor No Mods mean: 3.9 μ=3.0 σ=3.0

To a certain extent, I've also lost a lot of faith in GW. That's why any official models I buy are used off eBay, and (if I ever get time) will be 3D printed. But even I have to admit the only models they usually nerf are the OP models from the prior codex. In the new Nid 'dex, it looks like Hive Guard got nerfed (which they needed), but most other units got buffed. I would expect the same from the AM codex. Our weak units get buffed, and the massively, seriously, ridculously OP Deathstrike to get hit with a nerf bat the size of the Twin Towers.

Tbh there’s a small rules goblin inside me hoping the deathstrike is just busted op type stuff. Feth balance, I just want to see an actual nuke go off on the tabletop.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Tbh there’s a small rules goblin inside me hoping the deathstrike is just busted op type stuff. Feth balance, I just want to see an actual nuke go off on the tabletop.

I would actually love to go to a serious 40k tourny with my 3 deathstrike, then win through some massively overpowered and unbalanced rules application. No planning or play ability. Just nukes. Then never go again

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Tbh there’s a small rules goblin inside me hoping the deathstrike is just busted op type stuff. Feth balance, I just want to see an actual nuke go off on the tabletop.

I would actually love to go to a serious 40k tourny with my 3 deathstrike, then win through some massively overpowered and unbalanced rules application. No planning or play ability. Just nukes. Then never go again

It would be absolutely fething glorious if someone could pull that off. Can you imagine the ensuing salt? We'd put Morton out of business overnight.

 waefre_1 wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Tbh there’s a small rules goblin inside me hoping the deathstrike is just busted op type stuff. Feth balance, I just want to see an actual nuke go off on the tabletop.

I would actually love to go to a serious 40k tourny with my 3 deathstrike, then win through some massively overpowered and unbalanced rules application. No planning or play ability. Just nukes. Then never go again

It would be absolutely fething glorious if someone could pull that off. Can you imagine the ensuing salt? We'd put Morton out of business overnight.

And then you use the support vehicle that allows you to use a 1-shot weapon 1 more time..

I can but dream

But honestly at this point I would cheerfully trade away different regiment bonuses, special abilities, funny rules, all for a useable set of units that were fun and easy to play with. Hell GW could experiment - make an army dead easy to play as a contrast to the rest and see what the market does.

Just look at our list of units before you get into all the variants, FW models and other possibilities.

Regiments
Special characters
Colonels
Majors (company commanders)
Tank Commanders

Conscripts
Infantry Squad

Chimera
Taurox

Command Squad
Platoon commanders
Various officers
Special Weapons Squad

Veterans
Armoured Sentinels
Hellhounds
Scout Sentinels

Basilisks
Deathstrike
Heavy Weapons Squad
Hydras
Leman Russ Battle Tanks
Manticore
Wyverns

Baneblade and variants
Shadowsword and variants

Non-regiment
Special characters
Commissars
Psykers
Astropath
Bullgryns
Commissar
Crusaders
Ministorum Priest
Ogryn Bodyguard
Ogryns
Ratlings
Servitors
Tech-Priest Enginseer
Valkyries

Stormtroopers
Tempestor Prime
Militarum Tempestus Scions
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad
Taurox Prime

And there is so much more you can do with just the available models. Handle infantry differently, do a simple conversion sprue to make the chimera into an IFV/light tank (the set back turret mod) or mortar carrier (again), bring back Scion regiment equivalents (Karskin, Catachan devils, etc.).

Hey do that stuff all correctly and we don't need fancy rules.

Just bring back platoons and have orders like, split into sergeants can buff a squad, platoon commanders buff a platoon, and company commanders buff the army. That’s all the crazy special rules done.