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Jarms48 wrote:
If we’re simply fixing Guard now.

1) I’d change our Regiment Trait selection to:

- Custom Regiments may select 3 custom regiment traits.
- Named Regiments may select 1 custom trait in addition to their own.
- Commissars taken in <Militarum Tempest> detachments gain the <Militarum Tempestus> keyword.

2) I’d change the Balance Dataslate Aircraft Matched Play rule to 2 Aircraft units not models. The only 2 factions with aircraft units is us and Tau, which Tau’s only one is the Remora Drone.

3) This is harder, cause there’s a ton of rules or point costs that need to be changed. Some could be very easily done by GW but just changing some numbers in the current FAQ or Balance Dataslate. Such as changing Tank Orders range from 6” to 18”, the same as a vox-caster.

2 and 3 is literally just a single word and number change on the balance dataslate. Would literally take like 30 seconds to do. Would all 3 of these make us OP? Hardly.

2 just means we can now field airborne Scion lists again. 3 just makes Tank Commanders giving their orders to other units a more viable option. While 1 gives us more tools to use. It’d also make other named regiments more viable. Something like Valhallan’s with Wilderness Survivors could be a good basis for a pure infantry build. Gunnery Experts would be useful for basically any named regiment. While having 3 custom traits could allow for better mixed regiments as taking 2 different custom ones is no longer an option.

As someone who prefers to use custom regiments for fluff reasons, I'm all about bringing the custom regiments power levels up closer to that of the named regiments. Another option I've suggested somewhere along this thread is that they make a list of custom regiment orders that you can choose one from for your regiment (to mirror the regiment-specific order(s) that the named regiments get). I also like the idea of making the commissars work with the tempestus better (it might also be worth expanding this to a few of the other character elite choices).

The changes to the aircraft rule would be nice, although GW would then have to resist the urge to give everyone multimodel units of flyers. Having longer range on the tank orders would also be a nice quality of life change that would increase the occurrence of instances where the benefit of ordering another vehicle outweighs the tank commander just giving orders to itself.

Another (rather strong, but perfectly normal for 9th edition) buff would be to give all our tanks co-axial storm bolters with the rule where if you shoot the storm bolter at the same target as the main turret weapon, you get to reroll hit rolls with the main turret weapon. Also, I was just looking back at my old 5th edition guard codex...I had forgotten that LRBT used to have BS 3, presumably to represent the influence of the machine spirit and targeting auspex...can our tanks maybe get these back (although I'm sure everyone else would then demand their regular troops get a 1 step improvement to BS "for fluff reasons")?

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
...I had forgotten that LRBT used to have BS 3, presumably to represent the influence of the machine spirit and targeting auspex...can our tanks maybe get these back (although I'm sure everyone else would then demand their regular troops get a 1 step improvement to BS "for fluff reasons"?

That's because that's the 5e codex, when BS 3 hit on a 4+ because to-hit with shooting was "BS+d6>=7". Think of it like the old switchover D&D had when they went from THAC0 to the 3e armor system.

 waefre_1 wrote:

That's because that's the 5e codex, when BS 3 hit on a 4+ because to-hit with shooting was "BS+d6>=7". Think of it like the old switchover D&D had when they went from THAC0 to the 3e armor system.

I don't remember that at all haha. I'll have to go back and take a look at the shooting rules to see if that doesn't knock something loose in my memory lol

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

I also like the idea of making the commissars work with the tempestus better (it might also be worth expanding this to a few of the other character elite choices).

Commissar change is a thematic one. Commissars train at the same schools as Storm Troopers and are apart of the same organisation the Ordo Tempestus.

The only other ones I’d maybe like to see is:
- Cadian Sanctioned Psyker stratagem becoming a generic one. All regiments should gain access to that ability as Sanctioned Psykers aren’t exclusive to Cadians.
- Some kind of Drop Troop custom doctrine that gives Aeronautica Imperialis units the <Regiment> keyword due to their greater cooperation with those units.

Other than that I don’t think anything else needs it.

The changes to the aircraft rule would be nice, although GW would then have to resist the urge to give everyone multimodel units of flyers.

At the moment it would only buff Valkyries and Tau Remora Drones. That’s it. Once the Guard codex is updated we’ll likely see Valkyrie Squadrons removed. So it’s basically a temporary change, while Remora Drones could just simply lose the Aircraft keyword and associated abilities.

Having longer range on the tank orders would also be a nice quality of life change that would increase the occurrence of instances where the benefit of ordering another vehicle outweighs the tank commander just giving orders to itself.

It’s about making Tank Orders more viable. A Gatekeeper Tank Commander will quickly fall out of Order range when other vehicles move forward, such as Sentinels. Cadian Sentinel units would benefit greatly from being able to use Full Throttle! A Demolisher Tank Commander will quickly fall out of range of an Artillery Battery, such as FW Medusa Carriage Batteries. Remember, a Tank Commander can gain additional orders from Stratagems, WLT’s, or Tank Aces. Is it a massive buff? No. Will it offer more utility? Certainly.

Another (rather strong, but perfectly normal for 9th edition) buff would be to give all our tanks co-axial storm bolters with the rule where if you shoot the storm bolter at the same target as the main turret weapon, you get to reroll hit rolls with the main turret weapon. Also, I was just looking back at my old 5th edition guard codex...I had forgotten that LRBT used to have BS 3, presumably to represent the influence of the machine spirit and targeting auspex...can our tanks maybe get these back (although I'm sure everyone else would then demand their regular troops get a 1 step improvement to BS "for fluff reasons")?

All Russ tanks with coaxial weapons are gone or legended now. So there’s no opportunity there. Also, the old BS3 was hitting on 4+ in the old system.

Jarms48 wrote:
]

All Russ tanks with coaxial weapons are gone or legended now. So there’s no opportunity there.

Aye, but I don't see why they couldn't just add the rule to all the non-artillery vehicles (I'd say just LRBT, but 9th edition stupid power levels mean you might as well slap it on everything...). I suppose they might need to update the models, but that's the only issue I can think of (unless there some GW internal rule saying otherwise).

They should just make tank orders a 12" aura given by the vehicle platoon commander that only affects units in that platoon.

Now the units in the platoon can act independently, but still gain benefits if they're close to one another.

Even though tanks with coaxial weapons themselves have moved to legends, you can still keep the same rule by having the tank buy a pintle-mounted weapon that has to fire at the same target as the turret weapon. 5 points for a +1BS? Done!

At this point, do Guard really NEED more buffs? They are already treading into Barry Bonds territory...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
At this point, do Guard really NEED more buffs? They are already treading into Barry Bonds territory...

You really think that this was ENOUGH for IG?

They’re still awful.

They are getting T9 Tanks, and have the best troops in the game bar none. They have FREE heavy and special weapons, auto wound on 6s, have free double shooting, and all for 60+30 points. 90 points. That is an insane buff. Imagine if this were Tau, or Custodes. You are only defending them because they are the most dog turd faction currently in the game, but you have to be honest. If Sisters had been given these sort of Auto-wounding on 6's the screeching would be deafening.

Guard can have a sit down, the new red headed step child is easily daemons or CSM. Who STILL don't have their 2nd wound.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
They are getting T9 Tanks, and have the best troops in the game bar none. They have FREE heavy and special weapons, auto wound on 6s, have free double shooting, and all for 60+30 points. 90 points. That is an insane buff. Imagine if this were Tau, or Custodes. You are only defending them because they are the most dog turd faction currently in the game, but you have to be honest. If Sisters had been given these sort of Auto-wounding on 6's the screeching would be deafening.

Guard can have a sit down, the new red headed step child is easily daemons or CSM. Who STILL don't have their 2nd wound.

The only buff they have right now is cheaper Infantry squads (if you have some upgrades on them) and 6s to-hit auto-wounding.

It's not fluffy, but do yourself a favor. Run the numbers-see how much of an impact that will ACTUALLY have.

And yes, CSM desperately need their second wound. I play CSM, I know.

Guard really need staying power. At the risk of repeating myself, they need to get "Go to ground" back as an order (+2 cover save but no shooting...at least I think that's what it was called)

Also, hopefully we don't keep these dataslate buffs for the codex and they're just a quick and dirty bandage to help get us to the codex.

 JNAProductions wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
They are getting T9 Tanks, and have the best troops in the game bar none. They have FREE heavy and special weapons, auto wound on 6s, have free double shooting, and all for 60+30 points. 90 points. That is an insane buff. Imagine if this were Tau, or Custodes. You are only defending them because they are the most dog turd faction currently in the game, but you have to be honest. If Sisters had been given these sort of Auto-wounding on 6's the screeching would be deafening.

Guard can have a sit down, the new red headed step child is easily daemons or CSM. Who STILL don't have their 2nd wound.

The only buff they have right now is cheaper Infantry squads (if you have some upgrades on them) and 6s to-hit auto-wounding.

And shooting out of line of sight with no reduction in BS or improvement in enemy armour save.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
They are getting T9 Tanks, and have the best troops in the game bar none. They have FREE heavy and special weapons, auto wound on 6s, have free double shooting, and all for 60+30 points. 90 points. That is an insane buff. Imagine if this were Tau, or Custodes. You are only defending them because they are the most dog turd faction currently in the game, but you have to be honest. If Sisters had been given these sort of Auto-wounding on 6's the screeching would be deafening.

Guard can have a sit down, the new red headed step child is easily daemons or CSM. Who STILL don't have their 2nd wound.

The only buff they have right now is cheaper Infantry squads (if you have some upgrades on them) and 6s to-hit auto-wounding.

And shooting out of line of sight with no reduction in BS or improvement in enemy armour save.

That's not a buff-that's avoiding a nerf.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
They are getting T9 Tanks, and have the best troops in the game bar none. They have FREE heavy and special weapons, auto wound on 6s, have free double shooting, and all for 60+30 points. 90 points. That is an insane buff. Imagine if this were Tau, or Custodes. You are only defending them because they are the most dog turd faction currently in the game, but you have to be honest. If Sisters had been given these sort of Auto-wounding on 6's the screeching would be deafening.

Guard can have a sit down, the new red headed step child is easily daemons or CSM. Who STILL don't have their 2nd wound.

The only buff they have right now is cheaper Infantry squads (if you have some upgrades on them) and 6s to-hit auto-wounding.

And shooting out of line of sight with no reduction in BS or improvement in enemy armour save.

That's not a buff-that's avoiding a nerf.

I guess you could call it an...indirect buff.

I'll see myself out.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
They are getting T9 Tanks, and have the best troops in the game bar none. They have FREE heavy and special weapons, auto wound on 6s, have free double shooting, and all for 60+30 points. 90 points. That is an insane buff. Imagine if this were Tau, or Custodes. You are only defending them because they are the most dog turd faction currently in the game, but you have to be honest. If Sisters had been given these sort of Auto-wounding on 6's the screeching would be deafening.

Guard can have a sit down, the new red headed step child is easily daemons or CSM. Who STILL don't have their 2nd wound.

The only buff they have right now is cheaper Infantry squads (if you have some upgrades on them) and 6s to-hit auto-wounding.

And shooting out of line of sight with no reduction in BS or improvement in enemy armour save.

That's not a buff-that's avoiding a nerf.

If everyone else gets nerfed but you, that is the same as if you got buffed.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
At this point, do Guard really NEED more buffs? They are already treading into Barry Bonds territory...

The sad part is, even with the balance dataslate Guard are likely to remain uncompetitive. Free wargear is nice but does nothing to solve our actual issues.

Seriously, it's kinda silly defending this Guard buff patch right now.

 JNAProductions wrote:

It's not fluffy, but do yourself a favor. Run the numbers-see how much of an impact that will ACTUALLY have.

I would not expect to see a free Lascannon added here or there. If I were a Guard player I'd be looking to spam the gak out of free Las/Plas or whatever. That'd change my overall strategies and certainly my builds. It'd change quite a bit.

2000/60=33.3333. Broad strokes I'd start with the idea of 30 squads with free upgrades (300 troopers), and then work backwards from there to build my army.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

It's not fluffy, but do yourself a favor. Run the numbers-see how much of an impact that will ACTUALLY have.

I would not expect to see a free Lascannon added here or there. If I were a Guard player I'd be looking to spam the gak out of free Las/Plas or whatever. That'd change my overall strategies and certainly my builds. It'd change quite a bit.

2000/60=33.3333. Broad strokes I'd start with the idea of 30 squads with free upgrades (300 troopers), and then work backwards from there to build my army.

Enjoy the carpel tunnel syndrome!

Apologies if any of these have already been said, but some half-formed thoughts to supplement the ones already here:

UNITS:

- Give Infantry Squads access to two special weapons (like real-life infantry sections, which typically have one support weapon per fireteam). This would allow them to specialise (or generalise) a little better, and could make shooting with special weapons (like meltaguns) more reliable. (Also, please just let me take lasguns on my section leaders, or shotguns.) Note that this would coincide with NO HEAVY WEAPON TEAMS in Infantry Squads (see below). Infantry Squads would be more about mobile firepower, leaving the big, cumbersome weapons to other units.

- Heavy weapon teams aren't available as a direct upgrade for Infantry Squads. They come only as budget (25-30pt) heavy support units: basically 5-man Infantry Squads, but with access to one heavy weapon instead of two special weapons. For every Infantry Squad in your detachment though, you can take a Heavy Weapon Squad in the same detachment slot. They can also take plasma cannons, multi-meltas, etc… maybe a gun shield upgrade/feature as well that gives the gunner +1 to his T and Sv, or a signum/scanner upgrade/rule that lets another Guardsman model sacrifice its shooting phase to 'assist' the gunner model (+1BS)?

- Command squads could lose the special weapon access (which seems unfluffy to me), and become all about buffing nearby infantry and protecting characters. They could have more powerful medic characters who automatically heal wounds/revive models – not just on a 4+ – and who could have something akin to the Apothecary’s “Narthecium Aura” ability (units within 3" can ignore wounds on a 6). The Command Squad could also include vox ‘administrators’ or something, who count as regular vox operators but also grant any officers within 3” an additional order. The squad should also start off with regular Guardsmen, not BS3+ Veterans (see below).

- No more dedicated Veteran squads. Any non-Scion infantry unit (or this could include vehicle units?) could be upgradable with the <Veteran> tag, in which case all models in those units gain +1 to their A and Ld. <Veteran> units could also double their existing access to special weapons, and benefit from a stratagem that gives them +1 or similar to hit (ranged or melee) in a given phase (rather than having flat BS3+ for example).

- No more dedicated Conscript squads. Some infantry/vehicle units (maybe all <Core> units?) could be upgradable/degradable with the <Conscript> tag. Models in <Conscript> units would lose -1 WS, BS and Ld, and halve their access to special weapons… however any time <Conscript> units get destroyed they can reappear on the field the turn after. Maybe Conscripts should also lose the ‘orders only take effect on a 4+’ rule as well. If you want a big Conscript squad, use the Consolidate Squads stratagem.

- Scions get the same range on their hotshot weapons as non-hotshot ones – all “hotshot” does is confer +2 AP. I’d also like if Scions could swap out their hotshot lasguns with “hellguns”: a different weapon entirely at something like Range 18”, AP0, Assault 4. And giving Scions options for auxiliary weapons, combi-weapons or plasma/melta pistols could be interesting – more flavourful IMO than just letting them pick the same special weapons as regular infantry.

- Ditch Special Weapon squads. If you want concentrated special weapons, take a <Veteran> Infantry Squad or Scion Squad.

WARGEAR

- Additional wargear options. Infantry units (or at least Sergeants) should be able to take krak grenades, maybe melta bombs or demo charges too. Non-hotshot volley guns could also be included in the special weapons list to give regular infantry a high-RoF weapon, as could new single-shot anti-tank or anti-flyer missile weapons? You could also do other misc things, like let any infantry unit take cameleoline cloaks, carapace armour or medipacks. Things like cameleoline and medipacks could be particularly valuable for Scions dropping into danger, and would also help infantry squads trying to hold objectives.

- Maybe some actual bonuses for taking bayonets (aka, as a lite melee option for Infantry Squads). Something defensive (like a bracing stratagem) could be interesting, and might gel well with their battlefield role. Alternatively, just something like +1 WS and/or AP in a turn where they charge/are charged.

- Turn the grenade launcher into a Heavy 2 weapon using the current rotary-magazine model? Alternatively, make the current weapon profile an auxiliary/combi-weapon option on the Sergeant, with a new underslung model? Another option to make grenade launchers more appealing could be to let them indirect-fire, like short-ranged budget mortars.

- I think flamers should become Assault 2D6, Blast. On the flip side, I also think they should fire at regular or +1 BS instead of auto-hitting (meaning the firer’s BS still matters), and should maybe have a range of 6” instead of 12”. They (or ‘flame’ weapons more broadly) could also reduce cover bonuses by 1, and/or reduce the Ld of any unit they successfully wound/damage.

- To make meltaguns more reliable (on top of being able to take 2 per Infantry Squad), they could also be +1 to hit or Assault D3, Blast (with a worse statline). I mean, you’re talking about unleashing the plasma energy of a fusion reaction, right? Lava is hot enough to kill you from dozens of metres away… how the operators of these weapons survive is beyond me.

- As a general rule, the minimum number of attacks made by blast weapons could be half the model count of the squad they're targeting. Maybe this could be a quarter for 'small blast' weapons like flamers and grenades, or equal to the target squad size for 'large blast' weapons.

- Vox casters could be longer range? They could also provide indirect fire units with direct line-of-sight if other units (ones with line-of-sight to the weapon’s target) are linked via vox. This might be a more sensible way of circumventing the new ‘-1 BS to indirect fire’ rule than just straight-up saying AM are exempt.

- Missile launchers (and potentially other "missile" weapons) should be able to re-roll misses by default, or fire at +1 BS.

ORDERS/STRATEGEMS

- Maybe a 'variable power setting' order/stratagem for las weapons (or just lasguns)? I.e. a 'maximum power' option wherein las weapons get +1 Strength or rerolls to wound, and potentially +1 AP as well. You could also have a 'minimum power' option (replacing FRFSRF, and being less of an auto-choice) which could do the opposite: extra/double shots, -1 Strength and/or -1 AP. This would allow a bit of tactical flexibility, and would also bolster weapons like lascannons (you can always fire 2 minimum-power shots to improve your chances of a hit).

- A martyrdom-style stratagem that lets guardsmen 'overcharge' their lasgun power packs could be fun as well. E.g. if a unit is killed during a Fight Phase with this stratagem active, the attacking unit suffers D6 hits/mortal wounds.

MISC THOUGHTS

- Infantry Squads get the "long-las", not sniper rifles. Long-lases could have AP1 or AP2 (in the lore, they often use hotshot packs)? Sniper rifles are reserved for Ratlings (and made a bit more potent)? Just like vehicle squadrons, snipers could be bought as units but then split up and operate independently once the game starts. Each sniper could upgrade with a spotter and form a two-man unit; the spotter can assist the sniper (+1 BS) during the shooting phase in lieu of shooting himself. 48" range, AP1, and mortal wounds on hit (not wound) rolls of 6?

- Maybe we could start replacing heavy bolters in the AM lineup with multilasers – mostly for fluffy reasons, but also because of the similarity between the Heavy Bolter and Autocannon statlines. On the same note, I wish pintle weapons were volley guns instead of the less-fitting (IMO) heavy stubbers and storm bolters.

- Speaking of bolt weapons, they need a boost. I personally think AP1 would be a good start, and maybe +1 Strength or Damage (or mortal rounds on wound rolls of 6?).

I'm at page 5 right now and still reading your discussion, but I have to ask:

It's mentioned several times that there's no model for the vox-caster and no one argued against that. In the normal infantry squads, isn't the guy with the backpack and antennas supposed to be the vox-caster?

unless platoons can consist of a single squad, platoons are a terrible choice for the future of this army.

i've said in YT comments on the subject many times now.
platoons create a high financial bar of entry.

assuming we go back to something old school in how platoons work, a basic army required to play using platoons would look like this.

HQ
command platoon
command squad- $38

troops
infantry platoon
command squad-$38
infantry squad-$50
infantry squad-$50

infantry platoon
command squad-$38
infantry squad-$50
infantry squad-$50

that's $314 before taxes for a basic army to play with.
idk about the economic situation any where else, but here in the US the situation is no even remotely good enough for kids to be able to get into the game in a timely manner at that price.

I started in 1998 as an 8 yr old. granted some of this was my own fault for being a stupid kid, but it took me years to get a playable guard army. I was at least 12 by the time i did...and part of that was because i said 'screw a second platoon' and went with an armored fist squad as my second troops choice.
if you also bring back the armored fist squad as an alternative it lowers the bar down to about $248.

if you want to murder the number of new players picking up the army, yes lets go with the old platoon model. if you want the faction to actually have a future, we need to stay as far away from that model of the guard as possible.

edit
My fixes, after spending some time painting
make rule of 3 apply to specific HWS and SWS loadouts not those specific squads.
keep the universal infantry squad point cost idea, but lower points to 50 instead of 60.
baneblades go to T9 or possibly T10
T7and heavier vehicles get a -1 to damage rule or a -1 to AP rule baneblades get both.
allow tracked vehicles to have a ram, or ramming speed rule that inflicts 2D3 mortal wounds on an enemy unit after this vehicle has charged non-monstrous infantry units.
make tauroxes T7 as well, never made sense why they had a lower T value.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Apologies if any of these have already been said, but some half-formed thoughts to supplement the ones already here:

UNITS:

- Give Infantry Squads access to two special weapons (like real-life infantry sections, which typically have one support weapon per fireteam). This would allow them to specialise (or generalise) a little better, and could make shooting with special weapons (like meltaguns) more reliable. (Also, please just let me take lasguns on my section leaders, or shotguns.) Note that this would coincide with NO HEAVY WEAPON TEAMS in Infantry Squads (see below). Infantry Squads would be more about mobile firepower, leaving the big, cumbersome weapons to other units.

- Heavy weapon teams aren't available as a direct upgrade for Infantry Squads. They come only as budget (25-30pt) heavy support units: basically 5-man Infantry Squads, but with access to one heavy weapon instead of two special weapons. For every Infantry Squad in your detachment though, you can take a Heavy Weapon Squad in the same detachment slot. They can also take plasma cannons, multi-meltas, etc… maybe a gun shield upgrade/feature as well that gives the gunner +1 to his T and Sv, or a signum/scanner upgrade/rule that lets another Guardsman model sacrifice its shooting phase to 'assist' the gunner model (+1BS)?

- Command squads could lose the special weapon access (which seems unfluffy to me), and become all about buffing nearby infantry and protecting characters. They could have more powerful medic characters who automatically heal wounds/revive models – not just on a 4+ – and who could have something akin to the Apothecary’s “Narthecium Aura” ability (units within 3" can ignore wounds on a 6). The Command Squad could also include vox ‘administrators’ or something, who count as regular vox operators but also grant any officers within 3” an additional order. The squad should also start off with regular Guardsmen, not BS3+ Veterans (see below).

- No more dedicated Veteran squads. Any non-Scion infantry unit (or this could include vehicle units?) could be upgradable with the <Veteran> tag, in which case all models in those units gain +1 to their A and Ld. <Veteran> units could also double their existing access to special weapons, and benefit from a stratagem that gives them +1 or similar to hit (ranged or melee) in a given phase (rather than having flat BS3+ for example).

- No more dedicated Conscript squads. Some infantry/vehicle units (maybe all <Core> units?) could be upgradable/degradable with the <Conscript> tag. Models in <Conscript> units would lose -1 WS, BS and Ld, and halve their access to special weapons… however any time <Conscript> units get destroyed they can reappear on the field the turn after. Maybe Conscripts should also lose the ‘orders only take effect on a 4+’ rule as well. If you want a big Conscript squad, use the Consolidate Squads stratagem.

- Scions get the same range on their hotshot weapons as non-hotshot ones – all “hotshot” does is confer +2 AP. I’d also like if Scions could swap out their hotshot lasguns with “hellguns”: a different weapon entirely at something like Range 18”, AP0, Assault 4. And giving Scions options for auxiliary weapons, combi-weapons or plasma/melta pistols could be interesting – more flavourful IMO than just letting them pick the same special weapons as regular infantry.

- Ditch Special Weapon squads. If you want concentrated special weapons, take a <Veteran> Infantry Squad or Scion Squad.

WARGEAR

- Additional wargear options. Infantry units (or at least Sergeants) should be able to take krak grenades, maybe melta bombs or demo charges too. Non-hotshot volley guns could also be included in the special weapons list to give regular infantry a high-RoF weapon, as could new single-shot anti-tank or anti-flyer missile weapons? You could also do other misc things, like let any infantry unit take cameleoline cloaks, carapace armour or medipacks. Things like cameleoline and medipacks could be particularly valuable for Scions dropping into danger, and would also help infantry squads trying to hold objectives.

- Maybe some actual bonuses for taking bayonets (aka, as a lite melee option for Infantry Squads). Something defensive (like a bracing stratagem) could be interesting, and might gel well with their battlefield role. Alternatively, just something like +1 WS and/or AP in a turn where they charge/are charged.

- Turn the grenade launcher into a Heavy 2 weapon using the current rotary-magazine model? Alternatively, make the current weapon profile an auxiliary/combi-weapon option on the Sergeant, with a new underslung model? Another option to make grenade launchers more appealing could be to let them indirect-fire, like short-ranged budget mortars.

- I think flamers should become Assault 2D6, Blast. On the flip side, I also think they should fire at regular or +1 BS instead of auto-hitting (meaning the firer’s BS still matters), and should maybe have a range of 6” instead of 12”. They (or ‘flame’ weapons more broadly) could also reduce cover bonuses by 1, and/or reduce the Ld of any unit they successfully wound/damage.

- To make meltaguns more reliable (on top of being able to take 2 per Infantry Squad), they could also be +1 to hit or Assault D3, Blast (with a worse statline). I mean, you’re talking about unleashing the plasma energy of a fusion reaction, right? Lava is hot enough to kill you from dozens of metres away… how the operators of these weapons survive is beyond me.

- As a general rule, the minimum number of attacks made by blast weapons could be half the model count of the squad they're targeting. Maybe this could be a quarter for 'small blast' weapons like flamers and grenades, or equal to the target squad size for 'large blast' weapons.

- Vox casters could be longer range? They could also provide indirect fire units with direct line-of-sight if other units (ones with line-of-sight to the weapon’s target) are linked via vox. This might be a more sensible way of circumventing the new ‘-1 BS to indirect fire’ rule than just straight-up saying AM are exempt.

- Missile launchers (and potentially other "missile" weapons) should be able to re-roll misses by default, or fire at +1 BS.

ORDERS/STRATEGEMS

- Maybe a 'variable power setting' order/stratagem for las weapons (or just lasguns)? I.e. a 'maximum power' option wherein las weapons get +1 Strength or rerolls to wound, and potentially +1 AP as well. You could also have a 'minimum power' option (replacing FRFSRF, and being less of an auto-choice) which could do the opposite: extra/double shots, -1 Strength and/or -1 AP. This would allow a bit of tactical flexibility, and would also bolster weapons like lascannons (you can always fire 2 minimum-power shots to improve your chances of a hit).

- A martyrdom-style stratagem that lets guardsmen 'overcharge' their lasgun power packs could be fun as well. E.g. if a unit is killed during a Fight Phase with this stratagem active, the attacking unit suffers D6 hits/mortal wounds.

MISC THOUGHTS

- Infantry Squads get the "long-las", not sniper rifles. Long-lases could have AP1 or AP2 (in the lore, they often use hotshot packs)? Sniper rifles are reserved for Ratlings (and made a bit more potent)? Just like vehicle squadrons, snipers could be bought as units but then split up and operate independently once the game starts. Each sniper could upgrade with a spotter and form a two-man unit; the spotter can assist the sniper (+1 BS) during the shooting phase in lieu of shooting himself. 48" range, AP1, and mortal wounds on hit (not wound) rolls of 6?

- Maybe we could start replacing heavy bolters in the AM lineup with multilasers – mostly for fluffy reasons, but also because of the similarity between the Heavy Bolter and Autocannon statlines. On the same note, I wish pintle weapons were volley guns instead of the less-fitting (IMO) heavy stubbers and storm bolters.

- Speaking of bolt weapons, they need a boost. I personally think AP1 would be a good start, and maybe +1 Strength or Damage (or mortal rounds on wound rolls of 6?).

you do realize that you really nerfed veterans right?

johnpjones1775 wrote:
here in the US the situation is no even remotely good enough for kids to be able to get into the game in a timely manner at that price.

Does it really matter? TBH GW seems to be moving away from targeting younger kids in favor of an older audience with more disposable income. Just look at how many fragile and difficult to paint centerpiece models GW keeps pushing, models that are completely inappropriate for kids.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

johnpjones1775 wrote:
here in the US the situation is no even remotely good enough for kids to be able to get into the game in a timely manner at that price.

Does it really matter? TBH GW seems to be moving away from targeting younger kids in favor of an older audience with more disposable income. Just look at how many fragile and difficult to paint centerpiece models GW keeps pushing, models that are completely inappropriate for kids.

yeah, I’m 32 now and in my current financial situation I couldn’t afford to start a guard army if we went to such a model.
Hell if we went to such a model my army would be completely invalidated all over again, and I can’t afford to spend another $138 to make my army playable.

The old platoon system was trash on many levels, but the cost is probably the biggest.
You want platoons? Guess what? That’s what a detachment essentially breaks down to.
Various kinds of platoons with various support elements.

johnpjones1775 wrote:
I can’t afford to spend another $138 to make my army playable.

If you can't afford a mere $138 then you don't have any real value as a customer.

You want platoons? Guess what? That’s what a detachment essentially breaks down to.

Except that we rapidly run out of detachment slots in all but the smallest games since our entire army concept is to have a lot of individually cheap units. Platoons fix this issue by trading a small degree of flexibility with minimum platoon size for the ability to take more than 60 points worth of stuff in one of your precious few troops slots.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

johnpjones1775 wrote:
I can’t afford to spend another $138 to make my army playable.

If you can't afford a mere $138 then you don't have any real value as a customer.

You want platoons? Guess what? That’s what a detachment essentially breaks down to.

Except that we rapidly run out of detachment slots in all but the smallest games since our entire army concept is to have a lot of individually cheap units. Platoons fix this issue by trading a small degree of flexibility with minimum platoon size for the ability to take more than 60 points worth of stuff in one of your precious few troops slots.

take more detachments.
lol yeah, at the moment i don't have much value as a customer, but i still have value as a customer currently, and it's really bad business to price customers out, because once you do that they're unlikely to come back when they're no longer priced out of the hobby...but the whole 'well i can afford it' or 'well i already have the models' mentality is so selfish and gakky. then one day you'll be priced out of the hobby as well, and you'll be crying about it.

johnpjones1775 wrote:
take more detachments.

Which costs precious CP, and is even more crippling now that you only start at 6 CP in a 2000 point game and have to pay for the formerly-free WLT and relic.

lol yeah, at the moment i don't have much value as a customer, but i still have value as a customer currently, and it's really bad business to price customers out, because once you do that they're unlikely to come back when they're no longer priced out of the hobby...but the whole 'well i can afford it' or 'well i already have the models' mentality is so selfish and gakky. then one day you'll be priced out of the hobby as well, and you'll be crying about it.

Ok? You're the one who tried to make the argument that platoons are bad because they make the game too expensive and GW has a selfish interest in not doing it, it's not my fault that the reality of the current game is outside your budget with or without platoons. Call it selfish if you want but the reality is that you aren't a desirable customer for GW.

GW has been hyper focused on it's Millennial Cash Cow Whales now for at least 2 generations. I think they're called Krakens. The people who buy every new box set no matter what, due to FOMO. We've all met at least one person who's gone way too far off the hobby deep end, and doesn't have money for actual food or a good living arrangement.

Point is, GW is betting that this game won't be popular in 5-10 years, and by then, it will have to rebuild the brand. Kinda like AoS.

I see what your thinking with There are several factors going on, and it's not a 1-size-fits-all model.

The general assumption is that going with platoons you're playing a matched-play game. In open play, you bring what you want.

So, if you're playing matched, at lower points, you can take other detachments, such as a Patrol, which only requires 1 troops slot, so 21 Infantry troops total, plus a HQ, which could be a Tank Commander. If the boxed set came with 11 infantry, with 1 extra that you can make a Lt or a CC, and weapon options for a HQ/SWS/Commisar.

then at 2000 points you've spent $$$ to get a fully army, so the extra cost for doesn't matter that much. Right now we have to take 6 squads anyway, now they're in 2-3 groups instead of 6 individual squads. The only difference is the additional Lts.

Personally, as much as I want platoons, I would drop the mandatory command squad others have suggested and just leave it optional. The CS is just a tax on a HQ, and unless it imparts a buff for taking it, people will just go do other things.