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Recently, listening to a well known 40K podcast reviewing the new Eldar book, I was struck by how the hosts would oscillate between talk about rules and how these would both affect unit performance and encourage people to buy and field these models, and painting and unit background in terms of new rules representing what these units are supposed to be from this background. What was interesting was that these two aspects of the same discussion could have been separated completely into two distinct conversations… though two of three of the hosts confessed to not being so interested in the modeling aspects, what I would consider more of the hobby part, as their interests were more in playing the game to win, becoming the best dark angels player in the world, yada…

So, that got me thinking, resulting in this….. Simple poll. Is 40K primarily a game, with a system to be mastered and opponents to be bested with more skilful competitive gameplay that uses officially sanctioned models as tokens, or is it primarily a hobby involving painting and modeling and so on that culminates in a game that allows hobbyists to use their handpainted and often to some degree handcrafted and customised models to play out scenarios?

This is a choice between extremes, a hard choice maybe, leaving open how grey middles and “both” type answers are to be borne out in discussion.

I will vote and add my own rationale for one over the other a bit later… looking forward to seeing what you see!

Does it matter?
As an adult I get to build/paint/play with toy soldiers - and call it a hobby. Wich makes it completely different (to others) than if I were just sitting around playing with Transformers or GIJoes or Hotwheels cars or something.

Serious answer:
Miniature wargaming/miniature gaming is the hobby. 40k is just a specific game within that hobby.

Game, 100%.

Hobbies tend to be a bit (or much) broader. Not just 'this specific project right now' Cars, rather than this car. Radios rather than this ham radio. Games, rather than this particular game.


The alternative is for people who ONLY build/paint miniatures and never game, but the answer to that still isn't 40k, but miniatures in a broader scope is the hobby. Even if they've haven't expanded their horizons yet.

Not a game. It's too shallow for it. Takes the intelligence level of 1st grader to master. Biggest issue for 1st grader is not skill but funding required

tneva82 wrote:
Not a game. It's too shallow for it. Takes the intelligence level of 1st grader to master. Biggest issue for 1st grader is not skill but funding required

By that logic, Parker Brothers, Milton Bradley, Hasbro, etc are all major board game manufacturers that have never once made a game.

You need a better critique. GW tends to give amply opportunities for good ones, but you're not putting in any effort.

tneva82 wrote:
Not a game. It's too shallow for it. Takes the intelligence level of 1st grader to master. Biggest issue for 1st grader is not skill but funding required

A crappy game is still a game.

It's a multi-level marketing system, more than a game.
Books, computer games, lame video products and placcy figures.

It's not a hobby, it's a PART of a hobby.

40k too often uses "but it's a game!" to excuse its failings at being a hobby and "but it's a hobby!" to excuse its failings at being a game; it's either schizoid and doesn't have a strong identity as either, or trying to identify as either a game or a hobby to the exclusion of the other isn't a particularly valid point.

40k cannot be a hobby; miniatures wargaming is the hobby. 40k is a game.

People who think Warhammer is a hobby need to play some other minis games.

As my friend said to me 'I used to build model airplanes. Once they were built, that was it. What I like about wargaming is it gives you something to do with the things you build and paint'.

Truth is, it's both and neither. And entirely down to you and your own unique pov. You can play the game without ever painting or converting a model. You can paint/convert/collect models and never play a game. Different strokes, different blokes, neither is wrong. (Yhough personally, I think one without the other is missing the point)

But here's the thing. Its more than a game/hobby as well. You don't need to game or paint/model either. 40k is an ip. You can read the stories/books, get lost in the lore, be a part of a community.

Hobby, which includes gaming. Just assembling/painting and gaming for me, I don't read anything, except the sources of rules. But I can put gaming aside for months or even years and still enjoy 40k a lot, as I've already done it multiple times in the past, so definitely hobby.

ccs wrote:
Does it matter?
As an adult I get to build/paint/play with toy soldiers - and call it a hobby. Wich makes it completely different (to others) than if I were just sitting around playing with Transformers or GIJoes or Hotwheels cars or something.

Serious answer:
Miniature wargaming/miniature gaming is the hobby. 40k is just a specific game within that hobby.

It does when you are starting the hobby as a kid or non adult in general. If a game is just a hobby then quality of rules, speed of aquasition of models and potential rules changes don't matter much. If is a game with an under 6 months window for buying, painting and getting everything you can get out of an army, barring extrem examples like DE. Then it is a totaly different thing. You are on a tight schedul and sometimes it is not even valid to start an army, because by the time you have it, it could be nerfed or worse illegal.

The whole hobby within a hobby is also very subjective. There are entire fandom where you either play w40k or you don't play at all. And again this matters for new players a lot. Someone in his 40s can invite his friends and play a game of defunct game from 1994, and have great time. A new player will not even know the game exist, neither will he have opponents to play with. For example my store, 9th killed w40k in it. And at the start of edition it was a w40k only. Now half the people play infinity, and the other half play AoS. Some people have armies for w40k, but most people that joined in 9th quit, and didn't move to other systems.

I'd say it depends on the person and the level of commitment they put into it.

For me personally, things fall much further towards the hobby side than the game side. Playing the game is just one small part of my 40K involvement. I spend wayy more time thinking about my miniatures, and their collection/assembly/kitbashing/painting as well as their backstory than I spend actually playing the game itself. Hell, I think I even spend more time on ebay scouring through 40K items than playing the game

I'm a peculiar breed of a miniac that I'm basically only into the 40K setting and games occurring within that specific universe. Other miniatures and minis games based in other settings are aight but not something I want to be involved with at my ripe old age. So actually, for me specifically, 40K is my hobby, but that includes all the games (KT21, AT/Epic, Space Hulk, Necromunda) and not just the one called "Warhammer 40,000: *th Edition".

Hobby. The percentage of players is dwarfed by people who never touch the game but still interact with the setting, miniatures, and wider community.

Yes....

For some, it is only about building and displaying nice models.
For others, it is smashing the opponent in the most brutal way possible, using anything they can get on the table.

Do the modellers kitbash, convert and magnetise? GW is not the only supplier of 40k models.
Do the rules laywers ponder loopholes, and min/max to create the most extreme lists?
Streamers and podcasters talk endlessly about the various parts of the hobby, and that often has little to do with playing the game.

Keeping up with the rules changes is a hobby in itself. With annual Chapter Approved updates, regular points updates, codex releases and the FAQs and errata, there is too much for some people to keep up with.

So, you are missing at least one poll option: "Neither, and both".

 Skinnereal wrote:
Yes....

For some, it is only about building and displaying nice models.
For others, it is smashing the opponent in the most brutal way possible, using anything they can get on the table.

Keeping up with the rules changes is a hobby in itself. With annual Chapter Approved updates, regular points updates, codex releases and the FAQs and errata, there is too much for some people to keep up with.

So, you are missing at least one poll option: "Neither, and both".

The game is part of the hobby though. It's not really a situation of neither/both because one is a subset of the other. You could never pick up a model in your life and still enjoy 40k as a hobby.

I'd say "hobby" over game since "hobby" is a large umbrella term for all the facets of how you interact with Warhammer (painting, enjoying books, community engagement such as discussions online, podcasts, creating femboy Thousand Sons images on Reddit, ect, ect, ect).

Playing the game is such a small sliver of that and doesn't really reflect the overall way people connect to the larger hobby, even if it is the core part of a lot of people's connection to said hobby.

Hecaton wrote:
40k cannot be a hobby; miniatures wargaming is the hobby. 40k is a game.

People who think Warhammer is a hobby need to play some other minis games.

What about the novels? Video games? Kill Team? Necromunda? Streaming service? Plenty of people exclusively engage in 40k as a hobby because there's more to it than just a single game system.

40k is just one facet or part of the hobby.

I get maybe 2 games in a month and paint for 20+ hours a week while watching Youtube or checking out hobby related content online

 Sim-Life wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
40k cannot be a hobby; miniatures wargaming is the hobby. 40k is a game.

People who think Warhammer is a hobby need to play some other minis games.

What about the novels? Video games? Kill Team? Necromunda? Streaming service? Plenty of people exclusively engage in 40k as a hobby because there's more to it than just a single game system.

Those people are engaging with the Warhammer 40k universe via different hobbies (apart from the streaming service).

And Kill Team and Necromunda would fall under the miniature wargaming hobby.

 infinite_array wrote:
Those people are engaging with the Warhammer 40k universe via different hobbies (apart from the streaming service).

And Kill Team and Necromunda would fall under the miniature wargaming hobby.

That only works if you view hobbies in a very strange way.
I like Transformers, have done since I was a young 'un. Until 2020 I hadn't bought a Transformer toy for over a decade if not longer but I watched a channel that discussed the history of the various characters and series before moving on to reading IDW's very long and convoluted comic book run. By your definition I'm not a Transformers hobbyist, I'm a YouTube and comics hobbyist.
If you only read 40k novels your hobby isn't reading, it's 40k. If you only paint 40k models your hobby isn't modeling, it's 40k. If you take part in forum discussions on 40k your hobby isn't forums that discuss 40k, it's 40k.
Any time anyone tries to say someone isn't into 40k because they don't play the game, it just reaks of gatekeeping. Learn to accept that not everyone engages in the same way and be happy that you have loads of people you can talk about your hobby with.

Real-life example. A co-worker is an avid Larper and regularly goes to Larp events. I asked them what it was about and where they did it etc. and it turned out it was specifically a Larp of 40k where each person was a member of an Inquisitor's Warband much like Dark Heresy. From this point, we got to talking about Total Warhammer and how they were using Audible credits to get free Warhammer books, and then late last year they decided to take the plunge into 40k as a TTWG. At no point did I judge this person because they weren't playing the game of 40k because we were still in the same hobby and still had things to talk about and bond over.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
40k cannot be a hobby; miniatures wargaming is the hobby. 40k is a game.

People who think Warhammer is a hobby need to play some other minis games.

What about the novels? Video games? Kill Team? Necromunda? Streaming service? Plenty of people exclusively engage in 40k as a hobby because there's more to it than just a single game system.

Then reading or video games is the hobby. You can be a fan of the IP, but IP is not a hobby.

The "game"(if you can call it that) is something cool to do with my miniatures. Having started 40k before it was called 40k, the only purpose of the game(to me) is to generate a storyline and create spectacular visuals that realte the story.

If I wanted to play a game for the game, I'd rather play poker, billiards, etc...

The 40k universe is what interests me. I like the minis, the fluff(more old than new, Ultras are 3rd founding, Necrons were built by Chaos Squats, etc...fight me), the sheer insanity of it all. But the game is quite possibly the thing I'm LEAST interested in. Don't get me wrong I do like playing the game but my group is very permissive and open/matched hybrid that has no problem w narrative.


But I'd rather play Necromunda at this point.

Hecaton wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
40k cannot be a hobby; miniatures wargaming is the hobby. 40k is a game.

People who think Warhammer is a hobby need to play some other minis games.

What about the novels? Video games? Kill Team? Necromunda? Streaming service? Plenty of people exclusively engage in 40k as a hobby because there's more to it than just a single game system.

Then reading or video games is the hobby. You can be a fan of the IP, but IP is not a hobby.

Rubbish.

Of course it is.

In the same way someone's hobby can be a particular historic era or subject matter. The hobby isn't 'reading' (but as a bookworm myself it must be said that reading absolutely can be a hobby), however to the topic in question, it's 'the napoleonic wars' or 'star wars', or whatever that - reading (or watching etc) is just the gateway to it/medium. The subject matter/ip/topic of interest is still the hobby.

Hobbies aren't just 'physical'. Theyre 'areas of interest'.

Deadnight wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
40k cannot be a hobby; miniatures wargaming is the hobby. 40k is a game.

People who think Warhammer is a hobby need to play some other minis games.

What about the novels? Video games? Kill Team? Necromunda? Streaming service? Plenty of people exclusively engage in 40k as a hobby because there's more to it than just a single game system.

Then reading or video games is the hobby. You can be a fan of the IP, but IP is not a hobby.

Rubbish.

Of course it is.

In the same way someone's hobby can be a particular historic era or subject matter. The hobby isn't 'reading' (but as a bookworm myself it must be said that reading absolutely can be a hobby), however to the topic in question, it's 'the napoleonic wars' or 'star wars', or whatever that - reading (or watching etc) is just the gateway to it/medium. The subject matter/ip/topic of interest is still the hobby.

Hobbies aren't just 'physical'. Theyre 'areas of interest'.

Nah, a hobby is a specific activity. You can be a "fan" of an IP, like you can be a "fan" of Marvel comics, but the hobby is collecting/reading comics.

I am in that happy middle ground. i want my models to be painted and look nice on the table, but i am not super excited about building or painting models anymore after 20+ years in the hobby. i also enjoy playing the games i play. with 40K specifically i enjoy the lore/setting and i want the game play to reflect that more than i just want to notch a "victory" .

Games that are one sided victories are not any fun for either player. close games where silly things happen because of the setting are much more enjoyable social excursions for me.

Hecaton wrote:

Nah, a hobby is a specific activity. You can be a "fan" of an IP, like you can be a "fan" of Marvel comics, but the hobby is collecting/reading comics.

Hmm,

did some quick google-fu and you're not exactly wrong. My first post was incorrect.

So, apologies.

I do think though what you say doesn't present the full picture. For example, despite the fact that I enjoy the 'life is strange' and 'transmetropolitan' comics, I wouldn't really call myself a 'comic' fan and certainly wouldn't consider 'reading comics' to be a hobby of mine.

In fairness, my mistake was in putting 'hobbies' and 'interests' together in my head, and funnily enough while inter-related they are not exactly the same thing.

Maybe it's fairer to say '40k can be an interest for someone, as well as or instead of a hobby'. The reading/watching etc would definitely fall into the former whilst painting etc would be more the hobby side.

I spend a lot more time building and painting models than I do playing. It's very much a hobby for me. For every hour I play, I probably spend 10 hours painting.

My opinion is it's a hobby. The game itself kind of sucks. Unbalanced. Hours long. Entirely random. I say this, playing the game weekly. To each their own but I think one of the biggest mistakes gamers of 40k have trying to get new people into the hobby is trying to teach the rules.

I've got a lot of new players into 40k (most being female players) over the years. And it was never by explaining the rules.

It was explaining that this poor guardsman is shooting a flashlight at a charging carnifex and only the God Emperor's blessed rolls will save him. People respond a lot better to that.

 Gert wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:
Those people are engaging with the Warhammer 40k universe via different hobbies (apart from the streaming service).

And Kill Team and Necromunda would fall under the miniature wargaming hobby.

That only works if you view hobbies in a very strange way.
I like Transformers, have done since I was a young 'un. Until 2020 I hadn't bought a Transformer toy for over a decade if not longer but I watched a channel that discussed the history of the various characters and series before moving on to reading IDW's very long and convoluted comic book run. By your definition I'm not a Transformers hobbyist, I'm a YouTube and comics hobbyist.
If you only read 40k novels your hobby isn't reading, it's 40k. If you only paint 40k models your hobby isn't modeling, it's 40k. If you take part in forum discussions on 40k your hobby isn't forums that discuss 40k, it's 40k.
Any time anyone tries to say someone isn't into 40k because they don't play the game, it just reaks of gatekeeping. Learn to accept that not everyone engages in the same way and be happy that you have loads of people you can talk about your hobby with.

Real-life example. A co-worker is an avid Larper and regularly goes to Larp events. I asked them what it was about and where they did it etc. and it turned out it was specifically a Larp of 40k where each person was a member of an Inquisitor's Warband much like Dark Heresy. From this point, we got to talking about Total Warhammer and how they were using Audible credits to get free Warhammer books, and then late last year they decided to take the plunge into 40k as a TTWG. At no point did I judge this person because they weren't playing the game of 40k because we were still in the same hobby and still had things to talk about and bond over.

I don't think it's strange. A hobby is a consistent activity you engage in for pleasure in leisure time.

So I would argue that no, you're not a Transformers hobbyist (I'm not sure that properties themselves can technically be a hobby). You are definitely a fan and have a cross-media interest. If you took the time to deliberately collect Transformers comics, then you have a comic collecting hobby with an interest in Transformers. If you collected the toys, then you'd be a toy collector with an interest in Transformers.

Stuff like videos and forums are murkier territory. I think that watching movies can be a hobby if it's something that you actively engage in, by actively seeking out genres or critically engaging with plots, themes, etc. But I don't think watching a single channel's content counts as a hobby. You're a fan of their content, not a hobbyist. I could see being involved in forums as a hobby, in the same way that talking with people can be a hobby. But if you're only doing it for 40k, then you have an interest that your engaging with via a specific medium.

I don't see how your example works. Your coworker talked about different hobbies. It just works out that those hobbies (LARPing, video games) fall under a specific interest.

I also don't appreciate words being put into my mouth. At no point did I try to gatekeep anyone's interest in 40k or judge their involvement. What I did say is that fans of 40k can engage with the property in a number of different, equally valid hobbies. Some people do it through reading, some through making video content, some through miniature painting and modelling, and other through miniature wargaming.