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aphyon wrote: I think we are missing the point that the 40K universe is a so over the top grim dark parody that what the emperor did was necessary for the survival of humanity.
NO. That is completely missing the point. What the emperor did was never necessary for the survival of humanity, it is what he thought was necessary and he is such a colossally arrogant psychopath that he never considered that there could be an alternative.
What the Imperium does and has done was never necessary for humanity to survive, it is necessary for the Imperium to survive. That is the irony. The inflexibility and dystopia of the Imperium is not some fall from the lofty heights of the grace and intelligence of the Emperor, it is exactly the same.
The Emperor is the Thanos of the 40k universe. He thinks he is making the "hard choices" that others "don't have the will to make". But he isn't. He is just a psychopath whose solution is genocide and he never considers any alternative because he believes he is the only person with a solution.
Every tyrant throughout history has believed they were doing what was necessary to achieve their goals and their ideals. And every tyrant was wrong. The Emperor and the Imperium he built was just the latest in the 40K universe.
Well, back to the larger point. We (you I suppose, since I haven't read the HH series) would not know all this without the HH series going through it all with great detail, whereas prior to the series that was just one of several possibilities.
Nope, never read a single Horus heresy book. It was very clear prior to GW deciding to go and write it all explicitly.
You don't need it explicitly said if you actually think about it at all. One person who says they know what the entirety of humanity needs, who calls themselves the emperor of mankind, is insane. No single person can claim to know what is best for an entire species of trillions of individuals and not be insane.
And when said person decides to make armies of genetically engineered, psychotic monsters in order to enact their plan by genocide? Yeah, they're not some grand visionary, they're a nutcase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/25 01:23:39
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
aphyon wrote: I think we are missing the point that the 40K universe is a so over the top grim dark parody that what the emperor did was necessary for the survival of humanity.
NO. That is completely missing the point. What the emperor did was never necessary for the survival of humanity, it is what he thought was necessary and he is such a colossally arrogant psychopath that he never considered that there could be an alternative.
What the Imperium does and has done was never necessary for humanity to survive, it is necessary for the Imperium to survive. That is the irony. The inflexibility and dystopia of the Imperium is not some fall from the lofty heights of the grace and intelligence of the Emperor, it is exactly the same.
The Emperor is the Thanos of the 40k universe. He thinks he is making the "hard choices" that others "don't have the will to make". But he isn't. He is just a psychopath whose solution is genocide and he never considers any alternative because he believes he is the only person with a solution.
Every tyrant throughout history has believed they were doing what was necessary to achieve their goals and their ideals. And every tyrant was wrong. The Emperor and the Imperium he built was just the latest in the 40K universe.
Great idea....and that would work if not for the fact that the original designers who created the universe prior to these books being written made it clear the emperor as the most powerful human psyker had the gift of foresight/pre-cog enough to see what would happen to the human race and knew exactly what he had to do to save humanity from that future. so he doesn't just believe he is doing what is needed. he knows as a fact he is.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
You got a source for the emperor having perfect foresight or precognitive ability? Because, you know, that conflicts with literally everything else in the lore such as him being betrayed by half of his entire military and getting beat up so bad he has to be put on life support.
And, seeing as the emperor is a psychopathic, genocidal, xenophobe, the "horrific" future he may have been "saving" the human race from was one where they formed galactic federation of allied, peaceful alien species to defend against external threats.
And, again, every tyrant has "known for a fact" they were doing the right thing. That is what belief is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/25 11:41:12
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
aphyon wrote: I think we are missing the point that the 40K universe is a so over the top grim dark parody that what the emperor did was necessary for the survival of humanity.
NO. That is completely missing the point. What the emperor did was never necessary for the survival of humanity, it is what he thought was necessary and he is such a colossally arrogant psychopath that he never considered that there could be an alternative.
What the Imperium does and has done was never necessary for humanity to survive, it is necessary for the Imperium to survive. That is the irony. The inflexibility and dystopia of the Imperium is not some fall from the lofty heights of the grace and intelligence of the Emperor, it is exactly the same.
The Emperor is the Thanos of the 40k universe. He thinks he is making the "hard choices" that others "don't have the will to make". But he isn't. He is just a psychopath whose solution is genocide and he never considers any alternative because he believes he is the only person with a solution.
Every tyrant throughout history has believed they were doing what was necessary to achieve their goals and their ideals. And every tyrant was wrong. The Emperor and the Imperium he built was just the latest in the 40K universe.
It is literally quoted in the rulebook. Or used to be ? The Imperium is the only way, the best way, for mankind to survive. That's a fact, and that's totally missing the point to believe it can be otherwise. That's the whole appeal of 40k, to show objectively "bad" people and organizations, that would be the bad guy, the invader, in any other setting, and to place them in the situation where they are the only defense, the only "hope". And even like that, the Imperium is slowly failing.
May even make you think: does the end justifies the means ? How far could I go to survive ?
I really hate what they have done with all those novels and relativism. The Emperor is the paragon of mankind, described as a genius, particularly in genetics, but now people see him as a tyrant, someone who stole power from the gods and an usurper... It's a really different settings
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/25 11:53:38
A Town Called Malus wrote: You got a source for the emperor having perfect foresight or precognitive ability? Because, you know, that conflicts with literally everything else in the lore such as him being betrayed by half of his entire military and getting beat up so bad he has to be put on life support.
How to say you did not read any 40K lore in last 20 years without actually saying it: the post.
And, seeing as the emperor is a psychopathic, genocidal, xenophobe, the "horrific" future he may have been "saving" the human race from was one where they formed galactic federation of allied, peaceful alien species to defend against external threats.
Ah, yes, allied, peaceful species like orks, tyranids, hrud, laer, dark eldar, umbra, mandrakes, rangda, enslavers, megarachnids, and a few thousand more cute and fluffy xenos who can be won over with a power of friendship and cookies
Hell, Horus Heresy books explicitly tell you outright that if Great Crusade did not happen, the entire galaxy was about to be overran and enslaved to the point of being livestock by either rangdan or colossal ork empire, both of which were only barely beaten by the Imperium at the last second because of efforts of greatest psyker in history. No Imperium, everyone, human and xeno alike, gets to be ork cow (and then orks tried for a second time, during the War of The Beast, obliterating more alien species in that war than the Imperium did in millennia but I guess actual fluff doesn't matter these days).
And that's without the efforts of the four chaos parasites who literally want to enslave everyone in afterlife and unmake reality, something that did not happen so far thanks to Imperium's efforts (and again, in HH lore, most of xeno species that were destroyed, like laer or rangda, were already in the grip of chaos and couldn't be saved). Hell, even humans before Emperor got going could be considered almost gone to chaos, seeing Terra itself was in the grip of chaos warlords before Emperor purged them all and so were most of Primarch's worlds, which kind of destroys any claim to alternatives right there on the spot. As bad as the galaxy is in M41, it was in worse state in M30 before the Emperor smashed most of the worst threats to bits gifting everyone in it 10.000 years of survival before all the existential threats could rebuild.
A Town Called Malus wrote: You got a source for the emperor having perfect foresight or precognitive ability? Because, you know, that conflicts with literally everything else in the lore such as him being betrayed by half of his entire military and getting beat up so bad he has to be put on life support.
How to say you did not read any 40K lore in last 20 years without actually saying it: the post.
Tell me you consider the in-universe fascist propaganda that is the Imperium's lore to be accurate despite the countless contradictions it generates.
The Emperor had perfect precognitive ability and was the paragon of mankind, ignore that he lacked the empathy (arguably the most defining trait of humanity compared to any other animal) to consider the feelings of his "children". Ignore that he sent Russ to censure Magnus for trying to warn the Emperor about Horus' betrayal and breaking his webway project despite knowing that Magnus would do that (perfect precog, remember) and also knowing that Horus would subvert his orders and that would result in Magnus joining Horus.
And ignore that this all results in his being crippled and everything he built being slowly destroyed other thousands of years. He totally knew that was gonna happen.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/25 14:25:26
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Insectum7 wrote: I do not portray them as victims. I point out that aggressors can also be violently conquered.
You could have picked any other example in history but chose the ones that most closely resembled the Imperium then continuously defended the point about them being "conquered" which made them sound like victims. Were Germany and the future Communist Bloc states conquered by the USSR? Yes. Were Germany and Italy conquered by the Western Allies? No, they were liberated from fascist and Nazi governments.
Naturally the Great Crusade was full of violence. . . Because you do not sign peace treaties with Orks, who's very hallmark as a race is a joy of being an aggressive, warlike species. They love to butcher and enslave humans. You say "xenophobia" as though it is automatically bad, when in the case of many species in the 40k universe, the xenos ARE aggressors. You've already intimated that "aggressors" are justly conquered.
What about the Craftworlders? They aren't all inherently aggressive. Not every race in the galaxy will be agressive and the HH series, Black Books, and some other novels have expanded on this topic.
Imperial worlds are not all oppressive dictatorships. Many worlds allow offworld travel and trade. The Imperium, by and large, doesn't really care how a world is run or a populace is treated, so long as the tithes are paid and the Imperial creed is heeded in some form or another. The vastness of the Imperium means it varies wildly in its implementations. Some worlds absolutely horrible, some reasonably pleasant. Such is to say that Imperial rule is not automatically awful, even though it sure can be.
Yet none of them are remotely democratic. There is no representation for the people of the Imperium that they can choose. And those pleasant worlds, those are inhabited by the elite of the Imperium, the Governors, nobles, princes, and Ecclesiarchs, not Average Joe. An Agri world isn't a nice place to live when you have the threat of the planet's rulers and owners ready to come down on you if you miss your grain tithe. Oh sure it might have a nice climate or a beautiful sunset, but you are still little better than a serf, if not a slave. You might eventually scratch together enough money to leave whatever world you started on but that's a one way trip, if it goes wrong you're screwed because the state sure won't care.
If killing Nazis and firebombing/nuking Japanese cities is 'justified', than violently retaking territory from Orks and other aggressive/oppressive in-universe factions is 'justified'. Not good necessarily, but justified. If the end result of such a Great Crusade creates a stable human territory in which the society can evolve into something more mature than a morass of previously existing warlord-anarchies, I'd argue that starts to be 'good'.
This is where the fun bit comes in because you will find arguments against the firebombing of German cities and you absolutely will find arguments against the atomic bombings of Japan.
This conversation is such a joke because you are bending over backwards to justify a fascist dystopia because you want so hard for the Emperor to be the good guy. It's just sad.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
godardc wrote: It is literally quoted in the rulebook. Or used to be ? The Imperium is the only way, the best way, for mankind to survive. That's a fact, and that's totally missing the point to believe it can be otherwise. That's the whole appeal of 40k, to show objectively "bad" people and organizations, that would be the bad guy, the invader, in any other setting, and to place them in the situation where they are the only defense, the only "hope". And even like that, the Imperium is slowly failing.
May even make you think: does the end justifies the means ? How far could I go to survive ?
I really hate what they have done with all those novels and relativism. The Emperor is the paragon of mankind, described as a genius, particularly in genetics, but now people see him as a tyrant, someone who stole power from the gods and an usurper... It's a really different settings
40k rulebooks are written from Imperial perspectives. Even without that, the Emperor just up and named himself the ruler of an entire species on the basis of he said he could see the future and he had some violent maniacs with big guns. Dude was a tyrant before the HH series fleshed him out my guy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
aphyon wrote: Great idea....and that would work if not for the fact that the original designers who created the universe prior to these books being written made it clear the emperor as the most powerful human psyker had the gift of foresight/pre-cog enough to see what would happen to the human race and knew exactly what he had to do to save humanity from that future. so he doesn't just believe he is doing what is needed. he knows as a fact he is.
And that future was what exactly? Do you know what the Emperor saw? Because that's a very vague statement, "He saw a future he didn't like". Very convenient IMO.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/03/25 17:08:23
How to say you did not read any 40K lore in last 20 years without actually saying it: the post.
Some of the people relying in this topic are so caught up in present day political theory, then trying to apply it to the lore or retconned lore of the 40K universe that they fail to understand that in the parody of super grim dark of the 40K universe certain things are a reality-
The emperor has foresight but not perfect foresight, he even admitted in the old lore that some of his precogs were clouded by the powers of chaos. even so after 10s of thousands of years he knew he had to act to save humanity as a race. irbis pointed out just a bit of that. the setting is grim dark, it is a crappy place to live for most populations and humanity survives on a razors edge.
Considering it is a WARGAME it is necessary for the setting. if everything was rainbows and ice cream and big E was a super cool negotiator who made nice with all those xeno races(carrying out their own xenocides) then the setting of the 41st millennium where the tag line is "there is only war" would not work.
We are back to the fact that the current staff of GW in the 40K department are so far removed from the staff who created, and set in stone as it were, the 40K lore from 3rd edition. that they do not understand it or do not want to admit what it actually is.
.the universe sucks
.the setting is grim and dark
.the imperium is broken and corrupt but is the only thing that keeps humanity from being destroyed by xeno races who have their own agendas
.there is conflict everywhere constantly
.the age of the emperor was a golden age by comparison that is always looked back upon in a positive light. the emperor is an incredibly powerful person who did all sorts of amazing things for the good of mankind because in the setting he knew he had to and as a matter of in universe fact he was right.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
aphyon wrote: Considering it is a WARGAME it is necessary for the setting. if everything was rainbows and ice cream and big E was a super cool negotiator who made nice with all those xeno races(carrying out their own xenocides) then the setting of the 41st millennium where the tag line is "there is only war" would not work.
Right, which is why they didn't write the Emperor as a diplomatic genius but a brutal, xenophobic, genocidal warlord who thought that creating legions of genetically engineered monsters was the best bet to ensure humanities survival. That does not mean that it was the only choice or the right choice, in universe, to ensure humanities' survival. The Emperor is not omniscient or omnipotent. He is a man with a toolbox of 18 (well, 9 by the time of his crippling) hammers and views every problem as a nail.
We are back to the fact that the current staff of GW in the 40K department are so far removed from the staff who created, and set in stone as it were, the 40K lore from 3rd edition. that they do not understand it or do not want to admit what it actually is.
.the universe sucks
Agreed
.the setting is grim and dark
Yes
.the imperium is broken and corrupt but is the only thing that keeps humanity from being destroyed by xeno races who have their own agendas
Incorrect, humanity can survive without the genocidal Imperium, in fact the Imperium destroys humanity more than any other force in the 40K universe. The Imperium needs the Imperium, not humankind.
.there is conflict everywhere constantly
Yes, except in all the places there isn't.
.the age of the emperor was a golden age by comparison that is always looked back upon in a positive light. the emperor is an incredibly powerful person who did all sorts of amazing things for the good of mankind because in the setting he knew he had to and as a matter of in universe fact he was right.
No, that is the propaganda of the Imperium. Fascists always harken back to a golden age that didn't exist and require external and internal enemies to focus the population on in order to justify the stripping of personal liberties. The Imperium has that in spades.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2022/03/25 20:39:42
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Gert wrote: Good, you shouldn't have fascist tyrannical dictators as role models.
Oh Gert, you know the ACKSHUALLY-not-fascism-just-sparkling-authoritarianism crowd didn't need that goad!
Oh are we at the "Anyone who doesn't think like me is a closet fascist" again? C'mon y'all, that's pretty dissapointing.
I genuinely think you're not giving your best effort if that's the go-to. Imo there's a much more interesting dialogue to be had here.
@Gert you've practically written my response for me. I just need time that I don't have atm. Hopefully a little later in the day. But here's a hint: Civilian casualties = Craftworlders. "Liberation" with unfortunate side effects/processes. And 'good' requires just a net-gain, not necessarily the ideal outcome.
HH is the lengthy expansion of original background. We know the beginning, we know the end. Whilst I’m well behind on current (gave up when the swapped the book size. Such things irritate me), I’ve enjoyed reading the ones I’ve got.
40K? That’s not a story, but a sandbox in which pretty much any story can be told.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Insectum7 wrote: I do not portray them as victims. I point out that aggressors can also be violently conquered.
You could have picked any other example in history but chose the ones that most closely resembled the Imperium then continuously defended the point about them being "conquered" which made them sound like victims. Were Germany and the future Communist Bloc states conquered by the USSR? Yes. Were Germany and Italy conquered by the Western Allies? No, they were liberated from fascist and Nazi governments.
Naturally the Great Crusade was full of violence. . . Because you do not sign peace treaties with Orks, who's very hallmark as a race is a joy of being an aggressive, warlike species. They love to butcher and enslave humans. You say "xenophobia" as though it is automatically bad, when in the case of many species in the 40k universe, the xenos ARE aggressors. You've already intimated that "aggressors" are justly conquered.
What about the Craftworlders? They aren't all inherently aggressive. Not every race in the galaxy will be agressive and the HH series, Black Books, and some other novels have expanded on this topic.
Imperial worlds are not all oppressive dictatorships. Many worlds allow offworld travel and trade. The Imperium, by and large, doesn't really care how a world is run or a populace is treated, so long as the tithes are paid and the Imperial creed is heeded in some form or another. The vastness of the Imperium means it varies wildly in its implementations. Some worlds absolutely horrible, some reasonably pleasant. Such is to say that Imperial rule is not automatically awful, even though it sure can be.
Yet none of them are remotely democratic. There is no representation for the people of the Imperium that they can choose. And those pleasant worlds, those are inhabited by the elite of the Imperium, the Governors, nobles, princes, and Ecclesiarchs, not Average Joe. An Agri world isn't a nice place to live when you have the threat of the planet's rulers and owners ready to come down on you if you miss your grain tithe. Oh sure it might have a nice climate or a beautiful sunset, but you are still little better than a serf, if not a slave. You might eventually scratch together enough money to leave whatever world you started on but that's a one way trip, if it goes wrong you're screwed because the state sure won't care.
If killing Nazis and firebombing/nuking Japanese cities is 'justified', than violently retaking territory from Orks and other aggressive/oppressive in-universe factions is 'justified'. Not good necessarily, but justified. If the end result of such a Great Crusade creates a stable human territory in which the society can evolve into something more mature than a morass of previously existing warlord-anarchies, I'd argue that starts to be 'good'.
This is where the fun bit comes in because you will find arguments against the firebombing of German cities and you absolutely will find arguments against the atomic bombings of Japan.
This conversation is such a joke because you are bending over backwards to justify a fascist dystopia because you want so hard for the Emperor to be the good guy. It's just sad.
In the above post you make the case that the Axis Powers were liberated from their governments, acknowledging that this is a positive thing, while at the same time also acknowledging that the means to do so (such as firebombing and nuking) are controversial actions. So in short, potentially needless slaughter of innocent lives in the service of a larger, positive goal. . . . sounding familiar?
If the Emperors goal was truly to re-unify the scattered and embattled human race across the galaxy, "liberating" them from a constant onslaught of xenos and anarchic warlords, then that would be a net positive even if there were some controversial actions/events along the way. (And they could be BIG controversies, considering that we're talking about a galactic scale.) This maps directly onto your own argument, with the exception of the point you make about "representative democracy", to which I'll return to my point about establishing security first. The occupied territories of the Axis powers didn't just get to hop right into representative self governance, there was a period of transition which gradually reduced the severity of, essentially martial law, as stability was established and precedents set. But even without reaching an ideal goal of representative government, I'll certainly make the claim that a stable existence is better than one embroiled in constant warfare. (and, tragically, there are modern analogues for this as well)
From the Timeline in Rogue Trader; Age of Strife:
"Terrible wars tear human civilization apart. Localized empires and factions fight amongst themselves as well as the countless aliens who flock to take part in the sacking of human space. Many worlds fall to the dominance of Warp Creatures whilst others revert to barbarism. Humans survive only on worlds where psykers are suppressed and controlled."
Which brings us to the in-universe reason/excuse for at least some form of restrictive societies, the psyker potential and avenue for posession. Which we have no real world analogue to. . . except . . . we're in this pandemic right now where mandates are being tested around masking and vaccines and . . . it's this whole thing you see. Imagine if the disease was deadlier. Like literally world-destroying deadly. What sorts of actions would begin to be considered and accepted? Would we consider them barbaric or pragmatic or both? What if the source of this civilization-ending disease was actually a very small part of the population, and something that you could scan or test for (I believe psykers can sense other psykers nearby in the 40k canon). It's easy to see how the pragmatic solutions (unfortunate term) get pretty ugly pretty fast.
. . .
Less dark of a topic now: Xenophobia!!!
Craftworlders themselves are not exactly peace loving hippies, and I would think that they'd be considered just as xenophobic as the Imperium itself, since they generally hold every other race in contempt. They are known for immense visitations of violence upon humans if it suits their purpose, or even sending Ork Waaaghs into human space so they don't have to do the dirty work themselves. Beil-Tan of course noted for their hard-line views regarding their own supremacy.
But of course the Eldar are no monolith, just as the Imperium is not. There are times when they work together, and times when they conflict. In older fluff, Eldar mercenaries and adventurers were totally a thing. I presume they still are. And the events around the resurrection of Guilliman has top members of both Imperial and Eldar factions setting aside their differences and working together, so recent fluff too.
Dark Eldar, well that should be obvious.
And are Orks not xenophobic as well? After all, "Green is best!". They're just charming about it, and then they'll laugh as they twist the limbs off your body.
"This conversation is such a joke because you are bending over backwards to justify a fascist dystopia because you want so hard for the Emperor to be the good guy. It's just sad."
Sticks and stones and pure projection. What I want is the "good or bad" to be an unanswered question. If it's just "bad, always bad" then it's cookie-cutter-simpleton-one-dimensional and far less interesting and thought provoking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/27 09:08:25
Sticks and stones and pure projection. What I want is the "good or bad" to be an unanswered question. If it's just "bad, always bad" then it's cookie-cutter-simpleton-one-dimensional and far less interesting and thought provoking.
Or the answer can be both.
For example, in my own headcanon:
Using the original background of the Emperor as a reincarnation of all the ancient human (proto-human?) shamans, I would argue that the Emperor never did overcome his original Purpose or programming as a reincarnation of all the old shamans. All his attempts through the ages to try and encourage "harmony" for humanity failed because humanity had developed and advanced beyond the simple paleolithic or neolithic society of the shamans. He was trying to turn back the clock. Humanity was not so easily controlled and the Emperor's attempts at just influencing either did not have enough effect, or grew out of his control into things he did not want.
I see the Great Crusade and the Emperor coming out as a warlord and leader as an act of desperation or impatience. With events of the collapse of the Dark Age of Technology and the Age of Strife, humanity was spiralling out of control. As humanity was spread across the galaxy, things were slipping further and faster beyond the Emperor's grasp and ability to influence on any large scale. The Crusade was one drastic attempt to control all of humanity. However part of the reason for its failure was the fact it was an externally imposed form of political control on the masses, with little change on their internal natures.
While overthrowing hostile aliens that oppressed or preyed on humans might be considered "good", it seems the main focus was just on turning each world into another obedient cog in the Imperium, churning out more resources, troops, and equipment in a positive feedback loop to speed up or sustain the Great Crusade. I get the impression finer details of social engineering or social justice were shelved for later, or at best lip service paid to it as an afterthought. Certainly the liberating oppressed humans from alien oppressors turned into a more general xenophobia that led also to the destruction or persecution of otherwise non-threatening alien societies or ones where aliens and humans had co-existed successfully. The Great Crusade achieved both good and evil results in its sweep across the galaxy.
In short, the exasperated Emperor had lost patience with trying to slowly enlighten humanity and decided to browbeat humanity into obedience and compliance. That might account for his blindness to the discontent among the Primarchs. Having seemingly met with unmatched success with this new direct method of the Great Crusade after so thousands of years of failure, the Emperor was in a hurry to enact the next step in his plan and thus hurried back to Terra, missing or ignoring the discontent that would ultimately explode into the Heresy. He probably thought he could deal with all the individual problems of disgruntled Primarchs or other major problems like how to get the SMs to accept civilian rules "later". I would say the initial success went to his head. Nothing breeds arrogance and blindness than success. He probably thought along the lines of "I should have tried this millennia ago instead of skulking around whispering into rulers' ears!" Remember he had had incredible success within a very short span of time, pushing his Imperium out across the galaxy in just a few centuries. Maybe that accounts for some of the clumsy ham-handed actions as the Emperor had grown used to such brute force methods since they seemed to have achieved more success than millennia of quiet patient subtlety.
A bit of succumbing to human affection for Horus would have compounded the blindness and been the icing on the cake. Delegate everything to his favorite, Horus, and rush off to the secret labs for the next stage in the plan.
godardc wrote: It is literally quoted in the rulebook. Or used to be ? The Imperium is the only way, the best way, for mankind to survive. That's a fact, and that's totally missing the point to believe it can be otherwise.
It's totally missing the point to take that as an out-of-universe statement of ground truth, and infer that the original authors- otherwise relentlessly mocking of Thatcher-era British politics- were actually setting out to write a story explicitly designed to wholly justify turbo-space-fascism. At that point it's not satire, it's just fascist fantasy; like The Iron Dream but played straight.
I'm sure the Imperials believe that their society is necessary, and the most extreme cruelties are automatically justified because they are necessary to preserve the state and thus humanity. That's a pretty consistent theme of all the in-universe writing; there isn't a lot of doubt or introspection among Imperials, no consideration that maybe things have only gotten so bad because the Imperium acts as it does. That's why it's satirical.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/31 19:14:09
As a side note, when there is doubt the character always whiplashes themselves back out of it because they know they will be executed for even harbouring feelings of doubt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/31 19:21:58
aphyon wrote: Seriously having the author who hates the imperium (and loves chaos), that goes out of his way to make them look inept or worse, write the seminal books about the emperor doesn't help.
Mind sharing with the class which author/books that is so those of who haven't read and memorized all 70 of them will have some clue what you're talking about?
That means the hero that I am fighting, the vision I am fighting to reclaim, is not golden it's objectively horrible.
I always thought the whole message of the 40k universe was that there are no "good guys" and often the people you think of as "good guys" have done some horrible, unspeakable things to get where they are. It's a great metaphor for real life. Just look at the US, world superpower with relatively high quality of life and often considered the leader of the free world. To get there and maintain that status, it took a rebellion, a civil war, and nuking Japan twice. Look what we did to the Native Americans, what the Brits did to Africa/India or what Spain did in Latin America as well. Life is never as simple as good guys and bad guys. Were we the good guys in Afghanistan? Sure we built schools and roads, we defused IEDs that could have killed innocent locals, but we also inadvertently killed a bunch of teenagers and goat farmers. We're the good guy compared to the terrorists but that's about it. The imperium of man is just a parody of the current world superpowers who are "the good guys" after several hundred years of genocide.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/31 19:40:23
Toofast wrote: Mind sharing with the class which author/books that is so those of who haven't read and memorized all 70 of them will have some clue what you're talking about?
Aaron Dembski-Bowden. He's written a lot of books from both Imperial and Chaos aligned perspectives but aphyon obviously hasn't read any of them.
Toofast wrote: Mind sharing with the class which author/books that is so those of who haven't read and memorized all 70 of them will have some clue what you're talking about?
Aaron Dembski-Bowden. He's written a lot of books from both Imperial and Chaos aligned perspectives but aphyon obviously hasn't read any of them.
I'm reading master of mankind right now and nothing jumps out at me as "wow this author hates the imperium". Maybe he'll give us some examples but I'm not holding my breath
