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2022/03/15 16:04:25
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
JNAProductions wrote: So you're saying a unit with 3+ Armor and T4, with 30" of range, does less damage than a unit with 6+ Armor and T3 with only 18"?
Clearly something must be broken.
Not too relevant but they're 5+ save now.
Ah, okay.
Edited the former post.
But yeah, Gants aren't nearly as durable as Intercessors.
Wait what? What does the Gants durability have to do with how much damage Gants, Intercessors and Firstborn do to Intercessors? Did I read the chart wrong?
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2022/03/15 16:06:41
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
JNAProductions wrote: So you're saying a unit with 3+ Armor and T4, with 30" of range, does less damage than a unit with 6+ Armor and T3 with only 18"?
Clearly something must be broken.
Not too relevant but they're 5+ save now.
Ah, okay.
Edited the former post.
But yeah, Gants aren't nearly as durable as Intercessors.
3 T3 5+ shouldn't be as durable as 2 T4 3+, but D2 is passed around like candy.
2022/03/15 16:09:57
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
JNAProductions wrote: So you're saying a unit with 3+ Armor and T4, with 30" of range, does less damage than a unit with 6+ Armor and T3 with only 18"?
Clearly something must be broken.
Not too relevant but they're 5+ save now.
Ah, okay.
Edited the former post.
But yeah, Gants aren't nearly as durable as Intercessors.
No but they're 1/3 of the price near enough.
Half the wounds at a worse Toughness and Save.
I'm not going to say they're 100% balanced, absolutely perfect, no adjustments needed... But I will say that simply pointing out that Intercessors do less damage isn't exactly an indictment of their balance. It's something to be considered, not proof that Gants are OP or Intercessors UP.
JNAProductions wrote: So you're saying a unit with 3+ Armor and T4, with 30" of range, does less damage than a unit with 6+ Armor and T3 with only 18"?
Clearly something must be broken.
Not too relevant but they're 5+ save now.
Ah, okay.
Edited the former post.
But yeah, Gants aren't nearly as durable as Intercessors.
Wait what? What does the Gants durability have to do with how much damage Gants, Intercessors and Firstborn do to Intercessors? Did I read the chart wrong?
The math isn't wrong.
But if the conclusion you got was "Gants are obviously superior to Intercessors" your conclusion is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 16:10:32
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2022/03/15 16:16:02
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
But if the conclusion you got was "Gants are obviously superior to Intercessors" your conclusion is.
No the conclusion I got was wondering what the durability of Gants mattered in a discussion of bolters, with mathhammering them being shot at Intercessors not Gants, nor why even that would matter if they were all shooting at Gants.
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2022/03/15 16:21:35
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
But if the conclusion you got was "Gants are obviously superior to Intercessors" your conclusion is.
No the conclusion I got was wondering what the durability of Gants mattered in a discussion of bolters, with mathhammering them being shot at Intercessors not Gants, nor why even that would matter if they were all shooting at Gants.
Because a unit is more than just shooting.
What conclusion do you think should be drawn from the data presented?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2022/03/15 16:43:07
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
But if the conclusion you got was "Gants are obviously superior to Intercessors" your conclusion is.
No the conclusion I got was wondering what the durability of Gants mattered in a discussion of bolters, with mathhammering them being shot at Intercessors not Gants, nor why even that would matter if they were all shooting at Gants.
Because a unit is more than just shooting.
What conclusion do you think should be drawn from the data presented?
That as a standard infantry weapon the stock bolter sucks. Units aside ofc.
2022/03/15 17:06:17
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
SemperMortis wrote: umm.... what? I said and I quote "gives them +1 attack in the 1st round of combat" Literally word for word what I just said, and your response is a snarky comment like this?
There are no "only if certain admittedly easy conditions are met" its 1st round of combat if they charge, are charged or heroically intervene. That is like 95% of all combats, or are you just upset that if I pile into a Marine unit they only get 1 free attack each as opposed to 2?
"There are no easily met conditions." Proceeds to list the easily met conditions.
Breton wrote: well the simple answer to your question - why should Marines go to two attacks base? Because they're twice as much as your Boys and thus have to have SOMEWHAT double the output per point. You get an average of what 80? More? Less? Bodies to launch your offense from. Marines will get 30-50. This is why Terminators have Storm bolters and Bikes have Twin Linked Bolters too. They're twice as much so need double the opportunity output. See Also: Outriders and Devastating Charge.
This was a bad argument 2 editions ago, and its a bad argument now. A Marine is 3+ armor compared to Ork 6+. A Marine has 2 wounds to an orkz 1. So opportunity cost seems to ignore Durability.
Arguments you can't deal with are bad arguments? A LandSpeeder Tornado has 6 wounds and 9 shots while for 50% more the Hailstrike has two more wounds and significantly more shots. I'm certainly not dishonest enough to claim all those extra points are tied up in 2 wounds, but also in the shots. Ergo Part of the points cost is durability, and part of it is offense. But sure, call it a "bad argument" to point out double the price should have roughly double the offense and double the durability.
I mean christ, in just this thread you have people calling for Marines to have 2+ armor, AP-1 bolters and now twice as many base attacks.
Yes, lets lump all those disparate suggestions into one long list to make it look like everyone is calling for all of that at once.
I did, right there, you quoted me. Except I didn't make it into one long list and make it look like everyone was calling for all of that at once. That is you trying to infer something that isn't there.
The list right there says otherwise.
Breton wrote: Say what? Bolters are RapidFire 2 now?
7th edition rapid fire was 1 shot at 24 or 2 shots at 12. Now its 2 shots at 24 if you stand still. Hence twice as many shots...except on vehicles which get twice as many shots regardsless
Interesting. Two doubled is... two. This New Math is really getting out of hand.
SemperMortis wrote: and a plethora of special rules which enhance Marine power immensely compared to what it was in previous editions and you still want to massively increase their stats
lol.
So you didn't get bolter discipline, shock assault, Chapter tactics, Doctrines, super doctrines and a bunch of other stuff i'm likely forgetting? Oh, more core units than any other faction in the game?
So you're saying Shock Assault - as already established was a bandaid to replace +1A while charging or 2 Weapons etc AND that quiet part ONLY on the first round - is immensely enhanced compared to getting +1A all the time? Marines already had Doctrines. 2 doubled is 2. LOL
In case its too long for those of you to bother reading, the summary is Breton arguing semantics in order to ignore arguing the point.
I think bolters go back to AP-1 the minute Marines can't take them. They may go there sooner. I think they went to 0 to push people out of Firstborn, if they're chucking that idea they'll go back sooner. And we already have a couple turns of -2 "bolters" on the Primaris. Putting them on Tacs isn't going to matter much. Balance wise. Of course if they do that and/or the +1A baseline to Firstborn:
If they do OR the other one won't be far behind - it'll be too hard to try and shave the 1 point balance between a Tac and an Intercessor.
then Tacs and Intercessors will be the same price and it comes down to a few Strats, which transport (which would also go away in a hurry), and a special/heavy vs Auxiliary Grenade Launcher.
Again, Marine Bolters weren't AP -1 in 3rd through 9th, so when exactly was this mystical time when a stock standard bolter was AP-1?
But if the conclusion you got was "Gants are obviously superior to Intercessors" your conclusion is.
No the conclusion I got was wondering what the durability of Gants mattered in a discussion of bolters, with mathhammering them being shot at Intercessors not Gants, nor why even that would matter if they were all shooting at Gants.
As JNAP pointed out, because a unit is more than shooting. Or if you want to play this ridiculous game. My Choppa/slugga boyz only get 1 shot at 12' at S4 no AP per 9pts, therefore my sluggas need to be buffed to achieve parity with Bolters and Gants new weapons. I think S5 4shots each at -1AP would be good. Probably want to buff their range out to 18 to 24 as well. I mean, all we care about is shooting right? No other stat matters like durability, speed or CC right?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/03/15 18:30:43
Oooh, if we're playing this game, how about Lasguns go to Assault 6 and if you don't move every shot after the first goes at +1 to hit/-.5 AP to represent the laser getting walked onto the target (I mean its a frickin' laser beam, even a Conscript should be able to figure out "move the bright spot over the badguy")?
2022/03/15 19:13:10
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
So Intercessors/bolters firing at termagants and vice versa appear to be balanced as-is, in terms of base stats, output reduction in capability after 2 rounds.
However, this does not say that marines are OK, because 9th is still a trading game, and trading is based on units, not models. At 200 points, termagants have ~3 units to trade vs. the marines 2, so marines are still trading down unit-for-unit. This is also best-case, where the marines are in RF range. At 12.1", Termagants have the advantage, which marines don't get back until 18.1", but termagants can play cagey to stay in that 12.1-18" range because they have the units to trade.
However, once the AV goes to 4 (like on the Skitarii rangers), the 11 bolter shots have a 17% reduction in output vs 10% in AV5.
2022/03/15 20:33:43
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
kirotheavenger wrote: I like Shootas not being Assault.
Orks were never the army to be charging around blasting, they were the guys firing loads and loads of bullets.
These two things aren't mutually exclusive, and given that the Evil Sunz subfaction ability wasn't changed it was a bonehead move.
And yes, Shock Assault is there to replace the +1 attack for charging-but why should Marines and Marines alone get that? (Okay, Ogryns and a few other units also get it. But Marines are the only ones to get it Faction-wide.)
Because they're the protagonist faction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 20:35:39
2022/03/16 02:27:35
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
A good story makes the protagonist work for their victory over, not hands them free power-ups just to keep the power fantasy going. So by that logic, clearly we need to nerf the bolter.
2022/03/16 02:40:37
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
ClockworkZion wrote: A good story makes the protagonist work for their victory over, not hands them free power-ups just to keep the power fantasy going. So by that logic, clearly we need to nerf the bolter.
So at the start of the game, everyone has BS/WS 6, and it goes down by 1 every round.
2022/03/16 03:00:08
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
ClockworkZion wrote: A good story makes the protagonist work for their victory over, not hands them free power-ups just to keep the power fantasy going. So by that logic, clearly we need to nerf the bolter.
So at the start of the game, everyone has BS/WS 6, and it goes down by 1 every round.
Also all non-named characters die to a stiff breeze to make the protagonist of the army look even more badass since they survived such a deadly conflict.
2022/03/16 03:08:35
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
ClockworkZion wrote: A good story makes the protagonist work for their victory over, not hands them free power-ups just to keep the power fantasy going. So by that logic, clearly we need to nerf the bolter.
So at the start of the game, everyone has BS/WS 6, and it goes down by 1 every round.
Also all non-named characters die to a stiff breeze to make the protagonist of the army look even more badass since they survived such a deadly conflict.
Named characters can choose to 'turn their back' and rotate their model to face away from any explosive weapon to take no damage.
2022/03/16 08:31:57
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
This I can agree with. Most marine vehicles are incredibly over-costed. For example:
- Rhino: 75 points.
- Razorback: 90 points. Twin assault cannon; or twin lascannon versions +10 points.
- Baal Predator: 90 points. Twin assault cannon +10 points. Heavy bolter sponsons +20 points; heavy flamer sponsons +20 points; or lascannon sponsons +30 points.
- Hunter: 95 points.
- Predator Annihilator: 100 points. Heavy bolter sponsons +20 points; or lascannon sponsons +30 points.
- Predator Destructor: 100 points. Heavy bolter sponsons +20 points; or lascannon sponsons +30 points.
- Whirlwind: 100 points. Whirlwind vengeance launcher +10 points.
- Stalker: 105 points.
- Vindicator: 120 points. Vindicator siege shield +10 points, in addition to current ability siege shield should move through Breachable terrain without impediment.
This is assuming we don't change any of their rules. This is roughly what all Rhino based vehicles should cost.
Spoletta wrote: Add "Black Carapace: Increase the armor save of units with this rule by 1 against attacks of S7 or lower".
Now they are fine, and you justified why marines have 2+ and sisters don't. (Obviously apply to all marine variants, yes stinky and spiky ones too. Maybe not dusty).
Why? They already have +1T and +1W over Sisters.
Breton wrote: I can remember when Plasma was -2, then AP2, now to -3 and -4.
AP2 is now AP-3, just how AP1 is AP-4.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: Basic sisters could then use a 10 ppm cost, but that's another topic.
I don't see why they should go down if they also get AP-1 bolters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/16 08:57:00
2022/03/16 09:10:19
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
The topic is "Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?" - yes. I don't care what is carrying it the bolter is crap in the current game/state. Imagine if marine didn't need bolter discipline, doctrines and chapter traits all stacking to make it worth firing their default weapon.
True. Regular bolters are dull but primaris ones are not, and SM can make bolters quite good for free thanks to their thousand abilities.
So better bolters could be acceptable only if SM lose their thousand abilties. Basically everyone gets primaris bolters and no (effective) tools to improve them. That would be acceptable. Anything better definitely not. At the moment marine bolters are pretty good: primaris fire with AP-2 for a couple of turns and AP-1 for the rest of the game, also with a nice range. Basic marines already fire AP-1 for the couple of turns in which they could be in range, in practise they basically already have native AP-1.
The point of upgrading bolters is to buff chaos and sisters, not marines.
2022/03/16 15:25:08
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
True. Regular bolters are dull but primaris ones are not, and SM can make bolters quite good for free thanks to their thousand abilities.
So better bolters could be acceptable only if SM lose their thousand abilties. Basically everyone gets primaris bolters and no (effective) tools to improve them. That would be acceptable. Anything better definitely not. At the moment marine bolters are pretty good: primaris fire with AP-2 for a couple of turns and AP-1 for the rest of the game, also with a nice range. Basic marines already fire AP-1 for the couple of turns in which they could be in range, in practise they basically already have native AP-1.
The point of upgrading bolters is to buff chaos and sisters, not marines.
That's a bit disingenuous. Most marines don't have AP-1 for "a couple turns", they're in Dev doctrine 1 turn, then usually in assault doctrine for 3 turns because they're in melee turn 3, leaving just 1 turn for bolters. With the additional attack and -1AP from chainswords, it's why we really don't see tac marines or regular intercessors, we mostly see Assault Intercessors. The biggest problem with giving regular bolters -1AP is that it encroaches on Intercessors, so there would be no reason to buy the shiny new Intercessors over firstborn.
Chaos just need their new codex, just like my Guard.
2022/03/16 15:37:57
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
The topic is "Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?" - yes. I don't care what is carrying it the bolter is crap in the current game/state. Imagine if marine didn't need bolter discipline, doctrines and chapter traits all stacking to make it worth firing their default weapon.
True. Regular bolters are dull but primaris ones are not, and SM can make bolters quite good for free thanks to their thousand abilities.
So better bolters could be acceptable only if SM lose their thousand abilties. Basically everyone gets primaris bolters and no (effective) tools to improve them. That would be acceptable. Anything better definitely not. At the moment marine bolters are pretty good: primaris fire with AP-2 for a couple of turns and AP-1 for the rest of the game, also with a nice range. Basic marines already fire AP-1 for the couple of turns in which they could be in range, in practise they basically already have native AP-1.
The point of upgrading bolters is to buff chaos and sisters, not marines.
I'm for getting rid of Doctrines and compiling most unit profiles.
2022/03/16 18:33:50
Subject: Re:Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: To buff bolters can’t you just go crimson fists, +1 to hit against vehicles and non tiny squads, plus exploding sixes on bolt weapons.
Except sisters and chaos can't be Crimson Fists.
2022/03/16 21:10:52
Subject: Re:Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: To buff bolters can’t you just go crimson fists, +1 to hit against vehicles and non tiny squads, plus exploding sixes on bolt weapons.
Except sisters and chaos can't be Crimson Fists.
Just going to rant for a moment on this because you happened to bring up Sisters and Chaos. Any buff to the standard Bolter/Boltgun/Godwyn Deaz pattern rocket propelled firing weapon (whatever they end up calling it next) needs to be a buff that goes to Sisters, Chaos, and the limited Guardsmen that can use them as well. I honestly don't care if it ends up being S5, AP -1, auto-wounds on hit rolls of 6 or extra AP on hit rolls of 6, or whatever else GW decides to do, but it needs to go to everyone who uses that weapon, jus like the Heavy Bolter, Flamer, Power Sword, and Multi-Melta changes were rolled out to each of the factions that used those weapons at the start of 9th. Again, sorry about chaos not getting their second wound, it is a crim but that's GW for ya.
I will accept Bolter Discipline and all that being only for Marines, and I will accept that Xenos weapons that are functionally the same but called different things technically do not have to get the same upgrades, but it is a fact that Sisters, Guardsmen, and Chaos are all using Bolters and Boltguns, so if you buff the weapon you buff it for everyone. No "Astartes Boltgun" or any other weirdly specific name that excludes the other factiosn that use the same weapon from receiving a buff. If you do it for one, do it for the others.
I am fine if my Sisters never get bolter discipline, a black carapace rule, or anything of the sort since yes, it just would not make sense. But they all use the holy bolter, so if it is getting a buff, I expect 11 point Battle Sisters to be getting that buff. If they don't because of the BSGW tries to pull, then that is just more reason for them to go down to 10 points.
Rant over.
The Emperor Protects his Faithful! For the Glory of His Name!
~4000 Points of Sisters
~1000 Points of SW
~1000 Points of Tau
~1000 Points of Guard
2022/03/16 21:25:49
Subject: Re:Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: To buff bolters can’t you just go crimson fists, +1 to hit against vehicles and non tiny squads, plus exploding sixes on bolt weapons.
Except sisters and chaos can't be Crimson Fists.
No, but they can be whatever holy order just really likes shooting crap. Gw has full ability to make subfaction traits good and encourage specific builds but they just don’t. What I meant here was that factions tend to have buffs. Plus don’t sisters have special bolter boost strats?
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
2022/03/16 22:06:50
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: To buff bolters can’t you just go crimson fists, +1 to hit against vehicles and non tiny squads, plus exploding sixes on bolt weapons.
Except sisters and chaos can't be Crimson Fists.
No, but they can be whatever holy order just really likes shooting crap. Gw has full ability to make subfaction traits good and encourage specific builds but they just don’t. What I meant here was that factions tend to have buffs. Plus don’t sisters have special bolter boost strats?
No idea, but it shouldn't tale a faction specific limited resource to make a bolter worth it. That is the point, you're advocating laying rules salad onto of the models to make the bolter half decent, rather than making the bolter good and stripping layers off the models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/17 06:35:15
2022/03/17 09:32:45
Subject: Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
True. Regular bolters are dull but primaris ones are not, and SM can make bolters quite good for free thanks to their thousand abilities.
So better bolters could be acceptable only if SM lose their thousand abilties. Basically everyone gets primaris bolters and no (effective) tools to improve them. That would be acceptable. Anything better definitely not. At the moment marine bolters are pretty good: primaris fire with AP-2 for a couple of turns and AP-1 for the rest of the game, also with a nice range. Basic marines already fire AP-1 for the couple of turns in which they could be in range, in practise they basically already have native AP-1.
The point of upgrading bolters is to buff chaos and sisters, not marines.
That's a bit disingenuous. Most marines don't have AP-1 for "a couple turns", they're in Dev doctrine 1 turn, then usually in assault doctrine for 3 turns because they're in melee turn 3, leaving just 1 turn for bolters. With the additional attack and -1AP from chainswords, it's why we really don't see tac marines or regular intercessors, we mostly see Assault Intercessors. The biggest problem with giving regular bolters -1AP is that it encroaches on Intercessors, so there would be no reason to buy the shiny new Intercessors over firstborn.
Chaos just need their new codex, just like my Guard.
Bolters mostly (only?) matter in turns 2 and 3. In turn 1 they might be out of range, or at least out of rapid fire range. After turn 3 the appropriate targets might be locked in combat or dead. Most marine armies are shooty oriented and the few melee units have access to get the assault doctrine bonus even when the bolter doctrine is still in play. Space Wolves have a stratagem to do that for example. Others might strike with high enough AP to not need the bonus.
I think bolters should be AP0 with no doctrines, while primaris should be AP-1. I'd accept all bolters AP-1 assuming their platforms get a price hike and intercessors don't get flat AP-2 but still keep some kind of niche compared to regular bolter dudes to be justified.
2022/03/17 12:57:56
Subject: Re:Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: To buff bolters can’t you just go crimson fists, +1 to hit against vehicles and non tiny squads, plus exploding sixes on bolt weapons.
Except sisters and chaos can't be Crimson Fists.
No, but they can be whatever holy order just really likes shooting crap. Gw has full ability to make subfaction traits good and encourage specific builds but they just don’t. What I meant here was that factions tend to have buffs. Plus don’t sisters have special bolter boost strats?
No idea, but it shouldn't tale a faction specific limited resource to make a bolter worth it. That is the point, you're advocating laying rules salad onto of the models to make the bolter half decent, rather than making the bolter good and stripping layers off the models.
No, I think you've got it backwards. Why should the most ubiquitous, easily spammable, baseline gun in the game be "good"? It should be "average". I get it, the game is FUBAR right now, but we don't solve this FUBAR situation by going back to the 8e Marines 2.0 meta.
