Switch Theme:

Do bolters need buffs across most platforms?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wyldhunt wrote:
I'd much rather see other things get toned down rather than buffing bolters further. Nobody wins the power creep war.


This is the truth right here.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 morganfreeman wrote:
Kaied wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
S5 AP-1 fleshborers still don't have the range and ability to fire twice that the bolters do, so I woukdn't say they're "better" necessarily, but there's an unprecedented encroachment there.
A little Mathhammer and S4 AP0 D1 is exactly half the damage as S5 AP-1 D1 against T4 3+ save and assuming the same BS. So yeah, Fleshborer doesn't have the option to Rapid Fire... but it effectively always is compared to a Boltgun. Looks like it's an Assault Weapon too, so the shorter range is mitigated by 'can be fired while advancing'.

Anyway, I think the better comparison is the Astartes Shotgun, it's just that Boltgun is more iconic. S4 AP0 D1 Assault 2 18" vs S5 AP-1 D1 Assault 1 18". Fleshborer will do more damage against harder than Marine targets (T4 3+) and Shotgun will do more against weaker than Marine.


Comparison to the bolter is proper.

While your bit about Rapid Fire is correct, it's not quite... accurate. Bolter Discipline means that marines will be doubling-up their shots far more often than not, to the point where having double the range is an extremely important factor. This also doesn't account for bolters having bonus AP from Doctrines, and you bizarrely choose to throw in a bit about "assuming the same BS" when Termagants have always had lower BS than marines...

So while your comparison is technically correct, it's incredibly dishonest. And that's before you even really get into the weeds on platform durability, in which Bolters suddenly fair significantly better (respectively) when firing at Termagants than when firing at Marines. So the conclusions reached via this mathhammer are deeply flawed, and should be ignored by anyone not looking to push an inaccurate agenda.
Maybe because I was comparing the Weapon and not the Platform, and not attempting to confuse the issue with a dozen other factors that pertain to the Platform. If you reread my sentence about Mathhammer, I don't mention weapon names at all until the next sentence, just base stats. Fleshborer isn't half the range of Boltgun, or did you miss where it is going to 18"?

About the same BS comment, last edition I played significantly was 3rd as Space Wolves, and both Blood Claws and Termagants had the same BS, 3 (which is worse than 4 in that system). Granted, the normal Marine stat line did have 4 BS. Blood Claws were 14 points, Grey Hunters 17(18 with bolter), Tactical 15(Assault without JP were also 15) and Termagants were 7. Fleshborer and Bolt Pistol were exactly the same, Range/Strength/#Shots except Bolt Pistol had better AP. Termagants could also get +1 BS for +2 points. So no, at least 1 edition (the last one I played), Termagants were exactly the same accuracy as Marines.

This edition, if the boltgun gets rapid fire 50% of the time and you take BS 4 for the Termagants, the mathhammer breaks even. For, you know, somewhere around 25% of the points. Sure, we'll chalk up 75% of the points difference as platform differences and +6" weapon range... except the BS since we already took that into account. Durability? Well, assuming the Termagants stay at 3 Power for 10 Termagants, and Tactical Marines are 5 power for 5, so roughly 16.6W at T3 6+ for the Termagants vs 10W T4 3+ for the Marines. Doing some mathhammer, Marines are 60% more durable against boltguns, but only 20% more durable against Fleshborers than Termagants. D2 weapons and weapons that are higher than AP-1 obviously favor Termagants. Grav-gun for example S5 AP-3 D1(or 2) will only take 9 hits to kill the Tactical Marines, where it takes 25 hits to kill the Termagants. So on the top side, the Marines are 20-60% more durable, and Termagants do 66% more damage for the same power.

To put it a different way, if you control for Power, 16.6 Termagants with Fleshborers will kill 5 marines in 3.6 rounds of shooting (16.6 shots at 50% accuracy, 66% chance to wound, 50% chance to save=2.76W per round 10W/2.7=3.6 rounds). 5 Marines with Boltguns that Rapid Fire 100% of the time will kill 16.6 Termagants in 4.5 rounds of shooting(10 shots at 66% hit, 66% wound, 83% failed save=3.7W per round, 16.6W/3.7=4.5 rounds). Power Level 4 for the 'new' Termagants and it reverses, of course (3.4 rounds vs 4.8), unless Rapid Fire% is reduced (at 50% it takes 4.5 rounds to kill the 12.5 Termagants).

Sure, Doctrines and Chapter Tactics, ie -1 AP and remains stationary(Ultramarines) for 1-2 rounds out of 5. Counter with Hive Fleet Adaptations and Synapse Abilities, ie reroll 1s to hit(Kronos) and reroll 1-2s to wound (Tervigon). Chaplain Litany for +1 to wound vs Kronos exploding 6s psychic power. Captains, Chapter Masters, Lieutenants, and I am sure Tyranids have other buff units, but now we're talking codex vs codex not weapon vs weapon.

So perhaps dismissing my comparison as dishonest needs to look in the mirror.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




in the future, even bolters will fire live hampsters

rule 34?
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




I would be a bigger fan of GW toning most weapons down but i'm well aware of how unrealistic that hope is, so i guess yeah they need buffs..

 ClockworkZion wrote:
As I mentioned the only thing that would be a change worth putting on them is bumping them to D2 (and maybe only against non-vehicle models) to make them proper anti-MEQ weapons since Marines but honestly that could be pushing it when you consoder that Sisters of both flavors also get them and can be run in higher numbers than Astartes.

Current Sisters of Battle with D2 Bolters would be still not remotely a threat to the current Top Tier, not even if they finally get Bolter Discipline(at that point they would be a quite strong army again though). And i doubt D2 Bolters Sisters of Silence would've any impact at all.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




gunchar gets its, basic human patterns, gw will continue to buff weapons
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





The fleshborers are actually the only gun which feel a bit weird.

All the other small caliber weapons do indeed look like they were decided at the start of the edition and the designers stuck to it with dexes.

Fleshborers that strong are very weird. In general it looks like GW is pushing for better shooting on nids, since fleshborers got better only to be comparable with other choices.
I see no one discussing the fact that they also get a pistol 2 (old) heavy bolter.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Hecaton wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
I'd much rather see other things get toned down rather than buffing bolters further. Nobody wins the power creep war.


This is the truth right here.


Depends entirely upon how you percieve win. Temporary an army may well win the power creep war, decidedly so even. Permanently yes you are accurate.
Longterm gamehealth wise, all of us lose.

I don't think a gaunt should have such a weapon, but then again i don't think marines should've gotten 2 w and the firerate of weapons through the roof, subfactions and stratagems were imo a mistake aswell alas.
It's part of the course for GW to shift design paradigms once again in the mid of an edition, instead of finishing all codices at once and releasing them at once.

Alas, spread releases spread the numbers over the quartals, better look for the shareholders.
However i feel we enter a 7th edition spiral again and with far more expensive models to boot, anecdotally i have never seen such a low New-player retention since then locally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/14 08:51:14


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Wrong thread. Sorry.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/14 08:41:11


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I think all boltguns should go to -1Ap. Have to change some SM strats and give SM Hq's more attacks and wounds (is what is gunna happen with SM version 2.0)


Honestly, I see all bolt guns, storm bolters, hurricane bolters, bolt pistols, etc getting AP-1. Which would be a nice buff to every first-born unit, though I wonder if that would flow onto the other Imperium factions like Custodes, Sisters, Grey Knights, and Guard who also have access to these weapons.

For Primaris I could see all their AP0 bolt weapons becoming AP-1 as well. Infiltrators could be fun with AP-1 carbines. Intercessors could drop to 19 points with the bolt rifle or stalker bolt rifle, and pay +1 point for an AP-1 auto bolt rifle. Kinda like how BT Primaris Initiates work.

I also see GW removing Shock Assault and just giving Marines an extra attack, just like Grey Knights. Which would be a nice buff in general as there's many abilities that don't stack with Shock Assault, presumably because GW probably thought it was OP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/14 10:06:40


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Would be funny tho to see space-marines with hardcore machine-guns with like rapid fire 4 and not even by a stormbolter
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Tyel wrote:
Also half expect "boltgun" to cease being a thing. So you don't have to balance across multiple factions.


Honestly, I could see it being renamed Astarte boltgun, Astarte boltpistol, etc. Just like the Astarte chainsword. Even if Battle Sisters with AP-1 bolters might actually make them okay. Same for Custode bikers, instead of always just now swapping the Hurricane Bolters with the Salvo Launcher cause it's clearly superior, giving up an AP-1 hurricane might be a harder choice to make.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/14 10:15:42


 
   
Made in nl
Brainy Zoanthrope




Kaied wrote:
 morganfreeman wrote:
Kaied wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
S5 AP-1 fleshborers still don't have the range and ability to fire twice that the bolters do, so I woukdn't say they're "better" necessarily, but there's an unprecedented encroachment there.
A little Mathhammer and S4 AP0 D1 is exactly half the damage as S5 AP-1 D1 against T4 3+ save and assuming the same BS. So yeah, Fleshborer doesn't have the option to Rapid Fire... but it effectively always is compared to a Boltgun. Looks like it's an Assault Weapon too, so the shorter range is mitigated by 'can be fired while advancing'.

Anyway, I think the better comparison is the Astartes Shotgun, it's just that Boltgun is more iconic. S4 AP0 D1 Assault 2 18" vs S5 AP-1 D1 Assault 1 18". Fleshborer will do more damage against harder than Marine targets (T4 3+) and Shotgun will do more against weaker than Marine.


Comparison to the bolter is proper.

While your bit about Rapid Fire is correct, it's not quite... accurate. Bolter Discipline means that marines will be doubling-up their shots far more often than not, to the point where having double the range is an extremely important factor. This also doesn't account for bolters having bonus AP from Doctrines, and you bizarrely choose to throw in a bit about "assuming the same BS" when Termagants have always had lower BS than marines...

So while your comparison is technically correct, it's incredibly dishonest. And that's before you even really get into the weeds on platform durability, in which Bolters suddenly fair significantly better (respectively) when firing at Termagants than when firing at Marines. So the conclusions reached via this mathhammer are deeply flawed, and should be ignored by anyone not looking to push an inaccurate agenda.
Maybe because I was comparing the Weapon and not the Platform, and not attempting to confuse the issue with a dozen other factors that pertain to the Platform. If you reread my sentence about Mathhammer, I don't mention weapon names at all until the next sentence, just base stats. Fleshborer isn't half the range of Boltgun, or did you miss where it is going to 18"?

About the same BS comment, last edition I played significantly was 3rd as Space Wolves, and both Blood Claws and Termagants had the same BS, 3 (which is worse than 4 in that system). Granted, the normal Marine stat line did have 4 BS. Blood Claws were 14 points, Grey Hunters 17(18 with bolter), Tactical 15(Assault without JP were also 15) and Termagants were 7. Fleshborer and Bolt Pistol were exactly the same, Range/Strength/#Shots except Bolt Pistol had better AP. Termagants could also get +1 BS for +2 points. So no, at least 1 edition (the last one I played), Termagants were exactly the same accuracy as Marines.

This edition, if the boltgun gets rapid fire 50% of the time and you take BS 4 for the Termagants, the mathhammer breaks even. For, you know, somewhere around 25% of the points. Sure, we'll chalk up 75% of the points difference as platform differences and +6" weapon range... except the BS since we already took that into account. Durability? Well, assuming the Termagants stay at 3 Power for 10 Termagants, and Tactical Marines are 5 power for 5, so roughly 16.6W at T3 6+ for the Termagants vs 10W T4 3+ for the Marines. Doing some mathhammer, Marines are 60% more durable against boltguns, but only 20% more durable against Fleshborers than Termagants. D2 weapons and weapons that are higher than AP-1 obviously favor Termagants. Grav-gun for example S5 AP-3 D1(or 2) will only take 9 hits to kill the Tactical Marines, where it takes 25 hits to kill the Termagants. So on the top side, the Marines are 20-60% more durable, and Termagants do 66% more damage for the same power.

To put it a different way, if you control for Power, 16.6 Termagants with Fleshborers will kill 5 marines in 3.6 rounds of shooting (16.6 shots at 50% accuracy, 66% chance to wound, 50% chance to save=2.76W per round 10W/2.7=3.6 rounds). 5 Marines with Boltguns that Rapid Fire 100% of the time will kill 16.6 Termagants in 4.5 rounds of shooting(10 shots at 66% hit, 66% wound, 83% failed save=3.7W per round, 16.6W/3.7=4.5 rounds). Power Level 4 for the 'new' Termagants and it reverses, of course (3.4 rounds vs 4.8), unless Rapid Fire% is reduced (at 50% it takes 4.5 rounds to kill the 12.5 Termagants).

Sure, Doctrines and Chapter Tactics, ie -1 AP and remains stationary(Ultramarines) for 1-2 rounds out of 5. Counter with Hive Fleet Adaptations and Synapse Abilities, ie reroll 1s to hit(Kronos) and reroll 1-2s to wound (Tervigon). Chaplain Litany for +1 to wound vs Kronos exploding 6s psychic power. Captains, Chapter Masters, Lieutenants, and I am sure Tyranids have other buff units, but now we're talking codex vs codex not weapon vs weapon.

So perhaps dismissing my comparison as dishonest needs to look in the mirror.


Comparing termagants to blood claws, the only marines that hit on a 4+, does feel a bit disingenuous. You're also misremembering termagants having an option for bs 4 (3+ to hit) for 2 pts. That hasn't ever been a thing. This also discredits your further calculations, their bs isn't equal and tyranids have far fewer buffs available.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon





Jarms48 wrote:
Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I think all boltguns should go to -1Ap. Have to change some SM strats and give SM Hq's more attacks and wounds (is what is gunna happen with SM version 2.0)


Honestly, I see all bolt guns, storm bolters, hurricane bolters, bolt pistols, etc getting AP-1. Which would be a nice buff to every first-born unit, though I wonder if that would flow onto the other Imperium factions like Custodes, Sisters, Grey Knights, and Guard who also have access to these weapons.

For Primaris I could see all their AP0 bolt weapons becoming AP-1 as well. Infiltrators could be fun with AP-1 carbines. Intercessors could drop to 19 points with the bolt rifle or stalker bolt rifle, and pay +1 point for an AP-1 auto bolt rifle. Kinda like how BT Primaris Initiates work.
I kind of snicker every time I see someone talking about AP-1 being an upgrade for bolters even though that's what they've been for a long long time. I think they only went to 0 when Primaris got an AP-1 Bolt Rifle. It's not an upgrade, it's a reversion.

I also see GW removing Shock Assault and just giving Marines an extra attack, just like Grey Knights. Which would be a nice buff in general as there's many abilities that don't stack with Shock Assault, presumably because GW probably thought it was OP.

1) Which abilities don't stack? I thought it was Doctrines that didn't stack unless specifically allowed?
2) Shock Assault (and Hateful Assault) may change to a straight +1A on the stat line given the rest of the power creep, but I think it stays 1st round only.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

Bolters haven't been AP-1 since 8th dropped, and 5th-7th didn't have modifier APs. Maybe they were AP-1 in 2nd or something?
They used to be AP5, although against most units with saves 4+ or better it might as well have been AP-.
For armies with saves 5+ or worse, well everything was AP5 so everyone just considered them as not having armour saves anyway.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon





 kirotheavenger wrote:
Bolters haven't been AP-1 since 8th dropped,
When Primaris and bolt rifles were introduced?

and 5th-7th didn't have modifier APs. Maybe they were AP-1 in 2nd or something?
Technically it was called a save modifier not AP - Normally I wouldn't be so precise, but if we're dickering about AP-1 vs AP5?

They used to be AP5, although against most units with saves 4+ or better it might as well have been AP-.
For armies with saves 5+ or worse, well everything was AP5 so everyone just considered them as not having armour saves anyway.
That was how the system worked then just like AP4 was the same as AP- vs a 3+ - also not everything was AP5- Frag was AP6 Sniper rifles, Some other stuff. Most stuff was AP5.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

-1 save modifier and AP-1 are exactly the same, same functionality just a different name.

AP5 and AP-1 are not the same, they have different functionality despite having the same name.

I'm not interested in bickering about exactly how relevant AP5 was in old editions, the point is what it means going forwards.

It means that AP now is much more common than it used to be. Before almost no smallarms had any impact on 4+ saves or better, nowadays small arms with AP-1 or -2 are actually pretty common.

It also means that bolters having as much AP as other small arms is justified, as AP5 was about the best small arms got.

Do I like that AP-1 and -2 is common for small arms now? Not at all. But it is and that's clearly not changing anytime soon. Ergo bolters getting AP1 would help the weapon still feel relevant and powerful as it should do.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





It should be noted that while AP is definitely more common than how it was at the start of 8th, a lot of armor saves were actually increased too.

Stormshields provide +1. Kabalites and guardians have 4+. Leman russes have 2+. Tyranid beasts have 2+, and so on.

The only problem in all this is that the power armored marines have been left behind, especially their vehicles.
IMO in the new dex they should lose shock assault while gaining a +1 A (to reduce the number of rules), then add "Black Carapace: Increase the armor save of units with this rule by 1 against attacks of S7 or lower".
Now they are fine, and you justified why marines have 2+ and sisters don't. (Obviously apply to all marine variants, yes stinky and spiky ones too. Maybe not dusty).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/14 14:34:55


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon





 kirotheavenger wrote:


It means that AP now is much more common than it used to be. Before almost no smallarms had any impact on 4+ saves or better, nowadays small arms with AP-1 or -2 are actually pretty common.

It also means that bolters having as much AP as other small arms is justified, as AP5 was about the best small arms got.

Do I like that AP-1 and -2 is common for small arms now? Not at all. But it is and that's clearly not changing anytime soon. Ergo bolters getting AP1 would help the weapon still feel relevant and powerful as it should do.


We're on what 9th Edition? 1st Edition doesn't really count - it was wildly different - so we've got 8 editions of "life" in the game. A bolter was -1 longer than it wasn't. It probably will be again. Especially if they squat the firstborns and only non-marines have one. Whats the difference between 5 Tacs with a flamer and 5 Intercessors with an auxiliary grenade launcher? pretty much AP-1, 5 attacks you never want to need, and 10-20 points. Look at the current codex and the weapons that are AP0 (with no special like the Thunderfire Canon or the Eliminator Hyperfrag rounds) - how many of them CAN'T go on a firstborn? The Assault Bolter variants (Mastercrafted/Heavy/Hellstorm Auto Bolt Rifles and Dakka Aggressors that might as well be a special with 10ish shots per model? Maybe I'm wrong and this isn't to make Primaris more attractive. They do occasionally like to mess with things. I can remember when Plasma was -2, then AP2, now to -3 and -4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
It should be noted that while AP is definitely more common than how it was at the start of 8th, a lot of armor saves were actually increased too.

Stormshields provide +1. Kabalites and guardians have 4+. Leman russes have 2+. Tyranid beasts have 2+, and so on.

The only problem in all this is that the power armored marines have been left behind, especially their vehicles.
IMO in the new dex they should lose shock assault while gaining a +1 A (to reduce the number of rules), then add "Black Carapace: Increase the armor save of units with this rule by 1 against attacks of S7 or lower".
Now they are fine, and you justified why marines have 2+ and sisters don't. (Obviously apply to all marine variants, yes stinky and spiky ones too. Maybe not dusty).


S7 and lower may be a bit much. I get it, you're probably picking the Instant Death threshold - but I think I'd go less than 6 - so S6+ blows through carapace so now you're leaving behind most Plasma, Autocanons, assault cannons, and so on while tagging Grav, Heavy Bolters, and the like. Marines shouldn't be getting a bonus vs plasma (except maybe the S6 assault Plasma).

Also I'd have to question the premise why should Marines get a bonus to their armor save that Sisters dont? I get it you're saying Power Armor needs a boost for balance reasons that's easily fluffed, but I'm not clear on why Sisters need to be excluded.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/14 14:51:23


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Because sisters currently cover the niche of t3 3+ targets and they are needed for the game economy. Basic sisters could then use a 10 ppm cost, but that's another topic.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne




In the current game, yes bog standard bolters absolutely need to do more. The fleshborer has historically had parity as a half range assault 1 bolter (back before bolter discipline). Bolters are arguably less effective than they were back then due to the AP change, but fire twice at max range if stationary *by a marine*. Fleshborer got +1s, AP-1 and 6" increases. Tau pulse rifles got some increases as well after historically being kept constant. Shuriken catapults got ap and range increases. The humble bolter is now hilariously outgunned by it's peers.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Bolters are fine.

They need to address SM vehicles being absolutely horrendous trash heaps and things like hellblasters / reivers / assault marines / etc etc.

SM got a (deserved) bad rap in 8th 2.0 / early 9th due to the supplements, but in reality there were a few straight broken units/rules (partially due to being the first 9th codex), and a bunch of hot flaming garbage.

They also need to address other armies being just too good. Some of the tyranid leaks look pretty scary, and crusher stampede is already top tier. They did to the Tau what I was afraid they'd do: double down on the shooting power for a full leaf-blower army. Custodes got an idiotic price decrease immediately after their incredibly strong codex dropped.

The playtesting and rules writing communication is clearly failing somewhere with how swingy these codexes are.

If only there was a way to have all the rules available at once and modify them easily as needed. . . .
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




I don't think bolters need buffs.

I think the game needs a sweeping overhaul and toning down of lethality.

My guess is, 10th Edition won't be it. Maybe 11th.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Quasistellar wrote:
Bolters are fine.

They need to address SM vehicles being absolutely horrendous trash heaps and things like hellblasters / reivers / assault marines / etc etc.


This. But i'd expand it to every Non-core/Non-dreadnought vehicle in the game almost. So many cool models that don't get played because GW decided to remove nerf these models for no reason with Core not applying to them
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Quasistellar wrote:
Bolters are fine.

They need to address SM vehicles being absolutely horrendous trash heaps and things like hellblasters / reivers / assault marines / etc etc.

SM got a (deserved) bad rap in 8th 2.0 / early 9th due to the supplements, but in reality there were a few straight broken units/rules (partially due to being the first 9th codex), and a bunch of hot flaming garbage.

They also need to address other armies being just too good. Some of the tyranid leaks look pretty scary, and crusher stampede is already top tier. They did to the Tau what I was afraid they'd do: double down on the shooting power for a full leaf-blower army. Custodes got an idiotic price decrease immediately after their incredibly strong codex dropped.

The playtesting and rules writing communication is clearly failing somewhere with how swingy these codexes are.

If only there was a way to have all the rules available at once and modify them easily as needed. . . .


it is a little weird where if you want to run assault marines they can either be red or black and only come in blood angels. or gold I guess if you want to get wild
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

bat702 wrote:

it is a little weird where if you want to run assault marines they can either be red or black and only come in blood angels. or gold I guess if you want to get wild


Hmm. Must've missed that memo. Or, thankfully, I'm not part of this gestalt hive-mind thing the rest of you seem to belong to.
I've got:
Grey assault marines (SW)
dark Green assault marines (DA)
brighter Green & White assault marines (Mentor Legion)
and finally Sliver with Red trim assault marines (Doom Eagles)
Not one of these have ever been run using Blood Angel rules.


   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




shortymcnostrill wrote:
Comparing termagants to blood claws, the only marines that hit on a 4+, does feel a bit disingenuous. You're also misremembering termagants having an option for bs 4 (3+ to hit) for 2 pts. That hasn't ever been a thing. This also discredits your further calculations, their bs isn't equal and tyranids have far fewer buffs available.
Tyranids Codex 3rd edition, Page 39, Gaunt Biomorph Table, Enhanced Senses. You can easily look it up online if you don't have a copy.
"Disingenuous" mentioning Blood Claws at 3+ and then I immediately mention that most other marines are 4+... to quote Princess Bride “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” By the way, "Disingenuous" means acting not serious by typically playing dumb. It feels like you meant to use a different synonym in the deceitful thesaurus.
If you bothered to read down to the section talking about 9th edition, you'd have noticed that I take BS 4+ into account in all of those calculations. I mentioned buffs by name. But for the most part, besides army wide buffs, why are you buffing basic infantry weapons instead of the big guns?
So try again?
   
Made in ie
Dakka Veteran




Ireland

Upping Fleshborers to strength 5, while Bolters remain at strength 4 just highlights how the game is in a very unhealthy condition.

Said it years ago on this forum, and I'll say it again: the game needs to adopt a firepower system for small arms like that used in Epic 40,000/Epic Armageddon. Until then this is the sort of mess we will continue to see.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 00:41:27


The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

Perhaps worth noting that fleshborers did have the option to be S5 back in the 3rd and 4th edition codexes. Although the AP is new and unexpected.

In any case, rumor has it that termagants with fleshborers are going to be 7 points per model in the upcoming codex. So they will be paying a bit more for the improvement.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon





 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
Bolters are fine.

They need to address SM vehicles being absolutely horrendous trash heaps and things like hellblasters / reivers / assault marines / etc etc.


This. But i'd expand it to every Non-core/Non-dreadnought vehicle in the game almost. So many cool models that don't get played because GW decided to remove nerf these models for no reason with Core not applying to them


They had a reason - they didn't want the reroll etc bubbles to hit them. The Guilliman Parking Lot List. In some cases this may have been an overreaction, which is totally in keeping with GW history.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne




So as a wonderful exercise, a 9th ed tervigon behind 30 gaunts, 10 chaos marines with bolters rapidfiring. The marines kill 6-7 gaunts, tervigon (who can't be targeted due to the gaunts) regens 2d6 gaunts a turn. Maths says the bolter isn't even capable of killing supported gaunts any more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 08:15:00


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: