40k Leaked balance update [likely fake]

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**chaos0xomega**

Not sure what the outrage is about, even if it was real. Per the fake article it was meant to be a rotating/seasonal "restricted" list. Things that were banned or limited this season might not be the same things that were banned or limited next season. This season Trajan Valoris isn't available and you can only field 1 or 2 units of Crisis Suits or whatever, next season Trajan is available and you can field as many units of Crisis Suits as you want.

Of course, its only for matched play on the competitive circuit, so since most of you guys aren't competitive players it shouldn't affect you at all... right?

**Voss**

Blackie wrote:
tneva82 wrote:

Doesn't make it good method as it doesn't actually fix problem

Fix the problem. Then no need for 0-1 invalidating people's collections.

But what's the problem here?

In my opinion the problem is being able to field OP skew lists.

The problem is it targeted the signature unit for the Tau army. The crisis suit. Regardless of any irrelevance about 'OP skew' lists, those are the backbone of tau from the time they were introduced. Going to 0-1 for a fundamental signature unit of an army is obviously going to hack people off. Even in a bad fake (and this wasn't really a bad fake, given that it played right into the kind of crap people expect from GW), this line of thought is obvious going to raise hackles.

**oni**

chaos0xomega wrote:
Not sure what the outrage is about, even if it was real. Per the fake article it was meant to be a rotating/seasonal "restricted" list. Things that were banned or limited this season might not be the same things that were banned or limited next season. This season Trajan Valoris isn't available and you can only field 1 or 2 units of Crisis Suits or whatever, next season Trajan is available and you can field as many units of Crisis Suits as you want.

Of course, its only for matched play on the competitive circuit, so since most of you guys aren't competitive players it shouldn't affect you at all... right?

I wish that were the case. If we were still in 8th edition where there was a 4th mode of play called "organized play" specifically for tournaments, perhaps we could more easily separate the two modes of play, but I doubt it. Everything from competitive play trickles down to the point where all play is competitive play. This had occurred so much in 8th that 99% of players I encountered had zero clue that Matched Play and Organized Play were different or that most of the Chapter Approved changes to deployment and first turn were mission specific and I firmly believe that the inability of players to differential the two led to 9th merging the two together.

Sadly I stopped gaming in LGS's many years ago because I was not able to find anyone who wasn't "practicing for a tournament".

**Dolnikan**

Blackie wrote:
tneva82 wrote:

Doesn't make it good method as it doesn't actually fix problem

Fix the problem. Then no need for 0-1 invalidating people's collections.

But what's the problem here?

In my opinion the problem is being able to field OP skew lists. And since pricing all things in a way that spammable OP combinations couldn't exist is much harder to achieve than putting 0-1 or 0-2 limitations here and there to get the same result, I'd take those limitations anytime even if some collections (possibly even including mine) get "screwed" in the process.

A real problem was allowing players to build skew collections by making them legal. Take ork buggies: they were a cheap supportive units in the past that was maxed out at 9 models in total but in 8th and 9th people could buy and play 9 scrapjets and 9 squigbuggies. That's a grand total of 18 kits and basically a whole 2000 points list, and there's no "but I wanted to play a themed army!!!" that can support that. Theoretically up to 45 buggies were allowed under the rule of 3, so we came from 9x30ish = 270ish points to 45x90ish = 4000+ points by maxing out the buggies in a list. People who bought all that stuff did it just for fielding an OP list. Otherwise they could have bought 2 or 3 of each buggies (10-15 kits) plus other speed freaks themed units.

Now I don't feel bad at all towards those who can't field their 9+9 buggy based list anymore.

I would disagree. I can easily imagine players who love buggies, or whatever else unit you can think of, and just really like them. So, they get a whole bunch. And that's one of the big problems with introducing new restrictions in tabletop wargames because people get quite upset (understandably so) when the units they most want to use are suddenly no longer 'allowed'. It's the same thing with Legends and things like that. The only fortunate thing there is that most of those units were quite uncommon, so it didn't affect very many people. But that's about it.

If GW had kept restrictions right from the start, it would have been a lot easier. And a Rule of 3 can also be justified more easily because there aren't that many units of which someone would take that many. Although it of course is complete nonsense for weaker supporting units like Platoon Commanders and the like.

**chaos0xomega**

So after the AoS balance scroll or whatever that was just released, I can totally see GW doing this Requisiton system. They basically tried to balance the game by designated certain overperforming models as "priority targets" that generate extra VPs (so long as the models destroying them are themselves not also prime targets), and then they designated certain underperforming factions as "prime hunters" which get an extra VP on top of that per priority target killed.

**ph34r**

chaos0xomega wrote:Not sure what the outrage is about

I think I can help clear this up, all you have to do is read the second part of this post by chaos0xomega. Oh wait that's you? How weird.

chaos0xomega wrote:Per the fake article it was meant to be a rotating/seasonal "restricted" list. Things that were banned or limited this season might not be the same things that were banned or limited next season. This season Trajan Valoris isn't available and you can only field 1 or 2 units of Crisis Suits or whatever, next season Trajan is available and you can field as many units of Crisis Suits as you want.

I straight up don't believe that you can genuinely be "not sure what the outrage is about" when you immediately spell it out: people randomly being not allowed to play their units in Matched Play, which by the way is just about every random game that wasn't "let's just try to get a game in and not really care about keeping score" I've ever played.

Serious question: do you play Warhammer 40k? "You can't use your stuff, lol" seems like a pretty good reason to be displeased with a decision, or as you would put it in more clickbait terms, "outraged"

**kirotheavenger**

It's noteworthy that even when my group plays Crusade, they do so under a mismatch of Narrative and Matched rules (essentially Matched with Secondaries swapped for agendas and advancements layers on top).

Matched Play is, for the vast majority of the community, 40k.
I suspect the only people that genuinely do use power are the kids.

**chaos0xomega**

ph34r wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:Not sure what the outrage is about
I think I can help clear this up, all you have to do is read the second part of this post by chaos0xomega. Oh wait that's you? How weird.

chaos0xomega wrote:Per the fake article it was meant to be a rotating/seasonal "restricted" list. Things that were banned or limited this season might not be the same things that were banned or limited next season. This season Trajan Valoris isn't available and you can only field 1 or 2 units of Crisis Suits or whatever, next season Trajan is available and you can field as many units of Crisis Suits as you want.

I straight up don't believe that you can genuinely be "not sure what the outrage is about" when you immediately spell it out: people randomly being not allowed to play their units in Matched Play, which by the way is just about every random game that wasn't "let's just try to get a game in and not really care about keeping score" I've ever played.

Serious question: do you play Warhammer 40k? "You can't use your stuff, lol" seems like a pretty good reason to be displeased with a decision, or as you would put it in more clickbait terms, "outraged"

Still not seeing what the outrage is about. I would welcome this change. its a cool concept. For 3 months you have to adapt to a different paradigm with your army based on restrictions and limitations, and then after that it changes and the units that you couldn't use before, etc. are suddenly no longer blocked and new ones are. This is in no way a permanent limitation, but rather a temporary rotating change. It adds a lot of depth to gameplay and opens up the possibility that units which dont see a lot of use because they are slightly suboptimal relative to others in the same book, or are hard countered by the presence of other units in other factions, can see more use.

If you're outraged about being told to use a different army list for 3 months, that says a lot more about you than it does about the rules.

**kodos**

ph34r wrote:
Serious question: do you play Warhammer 40k? "You can't use your stuff, lol" seems like a pretty good reason to be displeased with a decision, or as you would put it in more clickbait terms, "outraged"

from this I guess you are new to 40k and this is your first Edition playing the game?
if this is already enough to outrage, better to stay away from the next Edition change and Codex update

**Rihgu**

Serious question: do you play Warhammer 40k? "You can't use your stuff, lol" seems like a pretty good reason to be displeased with a decision, or as you would put it in more clickbait terms, "outraged"

Is it really that much different from "You won't use your stuff, lol"?

**kirotheavenger**

Well no, but people complain about stuff being unusably bad as well.

I think people would complain if GW and stood up and said "every 3 months we will be choosing 3 units to nerf into the ground for some time", thereby making them unusable, as well.

**chaos0xomega**

Thats already what they do though. Every time they do a points adjustment or a codex update, invariably a unit gets a massive points increase that makes them virtually unusable (or more rarely they errata a rule to render the unit unusable). The problem is that when they do that they don't just do it for 3 months, usually those changes are permanent for the duration of the edition, once nerfed it remains nerfed and never gets reversed back into relevance until the next codex comes out.

**Gert**

kirotheavenger wrote:

Matched Play is, for the vast majority of the community, 40k.
I suspect the only people that genuinely do use power are the kids.

Two things.
1 - Power levels and Matched are not mutually exclusive.
2 - The whole "only kids/newstarts use Power" thing reeks of elitism. Power is easier to use for pickup games and for people who don't have loads of time to spend on calculating their lists down to the last point. Get off your high horse.

**Kanluwen**

Also great for people who don't want to waste money on "Point Balance: The Book That Really Doesn't Help".

**kirotheavenger**

It wasn't intended to be elitist - I've never seen anyone "in the wild" using power.
I've seen tournament matched, friendly matched, crusade and narrative games played across 5 different groups/clubs since 8th edition dropped.
No one has used power.
But I have seen people using points for nominally-power situations such as Crusade.

Pickup games don't operate on power, they operate on predetermined points levels.
If someone needs to make a list "on the fly" because an opponent brings an unexpected points level, they'll quickly whip up a list using ballpark points and reach the listed value +/- 10 pts, they won't use power.
This is my experience.

When I say "I suspect the only people who use power are kids" it is an observation, not a judgement.
Power certainly has it's benefits over points. Although apps like Battlescribe make that largely redundant. Ultimately the benefits of more balance handily win out over power.

**EviscerationPlague**

kirotheavenger wrote:
Well no, but people complain about stuff being unusably bad as well.

I think people would complain if GW and stood up and said "every 3 months we will be choosing 3 units to nerf into the ground for some time", thereby making them unusable, as well.

Nah we'd have some people here decree that GW was brilliant for it. After all, we have people defending PL here right now. They'll eat up anything.

**Gert**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
After all, we have people defending PL here right now.

Yes, god forbid there be a quick and easy system for people to make a list without needing a calculator.

@Kiro
That's all well and good for your area but in mine the peeps I game with use power because there are lots of new starts and the rest of us CBA with minutiae and counting higher than 100. Which means your definitive statement is nonsense.

**EviscerationPlague**

Gert wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
After all, we have people defending PL here right now.

Yes, god forbid there be a quick and easy system for people to make a list without needing a calculator.

Yeah it's pretty quick when GW switches up points all the time but the PL remains static.

If you don't remember the point costs for certain units after a couple of reads, that's on you. If you can't do basic addition with THREE digits, that's also on you.

**Gert**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Yeah it's pretty quick when GW switches up points all the time but the PL remains static.

If you don't remember the point costs for certain units after a couple of reads, that's on you. If you can't do basic addition with THREE digits, that's also on you.

Ah, there it is. If you use Power you are of lower intelligence. Nice.

**kirotheavenger**

Gert wrote:

@Kiro
That's all well and good for your area but in mine the peeps I game with use power because there are lots of new starts and the rest of us CBA with minutiae and counting higher than 100. Which means your definitive statement is nonsense.

I didn't start with an absolute statement. I said "I suspect no one uses power except kids" and you got all butthurt about eliteism.
You could have lead with "my group uses it because it's easier".
Fair enough, but here's another postulation for you - I believe your group is in the minority of organised groups (by which I mean a group that's more than just close friends but includes acquaintances/'strangers' as well)

**JNAProductions**

Power Level also favors those who meet the following two criteria:

1) Play armies with lots of options
2) Have big collections

That's assuming you require WYSIWYG with Power Level, otherwise, you can just scratch the second criteria off.

The difference between a fully upgraded Plaguebearer squad of 30, a moderately upgraded one, and a naked one is that a naked one has no bonuses other than -1 to be hit, the moderate one has +1 to Advance and Charge rolls plus on a 1 for Morale gets d6 models back, and the fully upgraded one is exactly the same, but has more models that grant those rules.
The difference between a naked 5-man Tactical Squad and a fully upgraded one (upgraded for 24" engagements) is that you gain a Combi-Plasma and a Multi-Melta. And a free Thunderhammer or other Power Weapon, for fun.

One of those gains basically nothing from PL-you'd almost always take an Instrument for a squad of 30, and the Icon is a nice little bonus you wouldn't always take, but isn't worth much.
The other gains SIGNIFICANTLY more damage output at their preferred engagement range, plus better melee for fun.

**Platuan4th**

Can we please not have the Power vs PL argument again? This isn't the thread.

**Eldarsif**

My group plays using power level in Crusade.

The nice thing I like about PL is that it abstracts units completely and opens for using options that no one ever would use like the DG Sigil or Simulacrum so people are often much more experimental with PL that they normally wouldn't if we were using points. If anything I find that the PL system exemplifies that it is a casual environment and not a "bring the best of the best and curbstomp your friends" that is often engendered in Matched Play.

**kirotheavenger**

I mathed it out once, but iirc my 10 Deathcompany were assembled about 100pts below what their powerlevel assumed, and if I went all-out on the options I'd be 100pts above the power level.
The difference was mine were all with bolt pistol/chainswords - the classic loadout.
The middle power level got everyone powerswords really - a significant boost in lethality.
The maximum options could everyone power fists and melta pistols. A significant boost in power level.
My 5 Sanguinary Guard suffer horribly under power because the squad sizes are 4 then 5-10, so I'm paying power for 5 guys I'm not taking (or I only use 4 and leave one behind).

This is all exemplary of the reasons people don't like power.
It's really very open to abuse, and even if you ignore spamming special options it can leave players with wholly innocent intentions feeling 'cheated' or hard-done-by for paying for options they aren't taking.

That is an extreme example, of course.
My 2000pt lists tend to come in +/- 8 power of 100, that's still a nominal ~160pts between armies, that's a squad that is.
Not a big deal amongst friends, but why bother when making a list on Battlescribe takes just 5 minutes and you can do it sitting on the toilet before the game anyways.

**Togusa**

chaos0xomega wrote:
Not sure what the outrage is about, even if it was real. Per the fake article it was meant to be a rotating/seasonal "restricted" list. Things that were banned or limited this season might not be the same things that were banned or limited next season. This season Trajan Valoris isn't available and you can only field 1 or 2 units of Crisis Suits or whatever, next season Trajan is available and you can field as many units of Crisis Suits as you want.

Of course, its only for matched play on the competitive circuit, so since most of you guys aren't competitive players it shouldn't affect you at all... right?

40K/AoS isn't Magic. You cannot have a Banned/Restricted list for a game that includes 150$ + models.

The problem with PL vs Points is that I keep seeing people argue that Points is what balances the game.

And then they argue that the points aren't balanced at all, too high or too low depending on units, which defeats their argument against PL vs Points. And I'd like to note that when I play games using power level, I've noticed that my entire thinking in terms of list building stops and changes. Instead of figuring out how many meltaguns or greatswords I can squish into my lists, I spend more time taking things that look neat or that I normally do not take because I don't really have to worry.

**Platuan4th**

Togusa wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Not sure what the outrage is about, even if it was real. Per the fake article it was meant to be a rotating/seasonal "restricted" list. Things that were banned or limited this season might not be the same things that were banned or limited next season. This season Trajan Valoris isn't available and you can only field 1 or 2 units of Crisis Suits or whatever, next season Trajan is available and you can field as many units of Crisis Suits as you want.

Of course, its only for matched play on the competitive circuit, so since most of you guys aren't competitive players it shouldn't affect you at all... right?

40K/AoS isn't Magic. You cannot have a Banned/Restricted list for a game that includes 150$ + models.

You say that like people aren't paying that much for single Magic cards.

**EviscerationPlague**

Eldarsif wrote:
My group plays using power level in Crusade.

The nice thing I like about PL is that it abstracts units completely and opens for using options that no one ever would use like the DG Sigil or Simulacrum so people are often much more experimental with PL that they normally wouldn't if we were using points. If anything I find that the PL system exemplifies that it is a casual environment and not a "bring the best of the best and curbstomp your friends" that is often engendered in Matched Play.

You mean the things that have no cost attached and therefore no consequences to them get use? Shocker.

**kodos**

Togusa wrote:

40K/AoS isn't Magic. You cannot have a Banned/Restricted list for a game that includes 150$ + models

of course you can, and GW did this in the past

just because you paid a lot of money for a single model or unit does not mean GW could not ban those from matched play or events for the simple reason that those are on the ban list for that season
we have been there and for the reason of more sales alone, this is a brilliant idea from GW

buy a 600€ army for this season, and a new one again in 6 months because the old one is not longer legal
(the only difference is that in the past it was years and not months)

**Kanluwen**

kirotheavenger wrote:
Gert wrote:

@Kiro
That's all well and good for your area but in mine the peeps I game with use power because there are lots of new starts and the rest of us CBA with minutiae and counting higher than 100. Which means your definitive statement is nonsense.

I didn't start with an absolute statement. I said "I suspect no one uses power except kids" and you got all butthurt about eliteism.
You could have lead with "my group uses it because it's easier".
Fair enough, but here's another postulation for you - I believe your group is in the minority of organised groups (by which I mean a group that's more than just close friends but includes acquaintances/'strangers' as well)

Here's another postulation for you:
Your group is simply going the route of least resistance and full of people who have zero interest in causing a scene or actually growing a healthy playgroup.

Because bluntly?
That's what points seems to be. The path of least resistance. There are too many people who do nothing but throw shade at power or pretend like there's no burden on the players involved to self-police for EVERYONE involved to be able to have a fun game. There are similarly too many people who do nothing but copy/paste lists or read the day one reviews and structure their buy lists accordingly.

The fact that you're seeing Crusade at all should tell you that there actually is an interest in doing laid-back games, but the toxic garbage surrounding discussions of Power are always going to turn people off to actually using it "in the wild".

**Togusa**

Platuan4th wrote:
Togusa wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Not sure what the outrage is about, even if it was real. Per the fake article it was meant to be a rotating/seasonal "restricted" list. Things that were banned or limited this season might not be the same things that were banned or limited next season. This season Trajan Valoris isn't available and you can only field 1 or 2 units of Crisis Suits or whatever, next season Trajan is available and you can field as many units of Crisis Suits as you want.

Of course, its only for matched play on the competitive circuit, so since most of you guys aren't competitive players it shouldn't affect you at all... right?

40K/AoS isn't Magic. You cannot have a Banned/Restricted list for a game that includes 150$ + models.

You say that like people aren't paying that much for single Magic cards.

They aren't, very, very few people compete in legacy events where cards hit that value. Most modern/standard events hover much, much lower.

in Magic, cards come and go. But in Warhammer kits hang around for decades, and to me, that's the difference.