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Do you think Mortal Wounds are too common in Age of Sigmar?
Yes 71% [ 60 ]
No 10% [ 8 ]
Not sure 19% [ 16 ]
Total Votes : 84
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Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

It's just insane how easy it is to not only get them into your list, but then to just straight up spam and fish them for days on end. Has it always been this bad? [user]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/13 09:06:33


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Pretty much always been thus way.
Since everyone can do it, ifs not a problem overall.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Yes it's the usual story of GW being unable to help themselves escalating/doubling down on a mechanic.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






It is bad and always has been, though it has been worse in the past. In my experience the community has overwhelmingly agreed from the start that MWs are a decent mechanic, there are just too many of them.

Handing out 6+ wards like candy helps, but affects regular damage as well and can reaaaallly slow down gameplay. Need more chaos runeshields in the game.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

ccs wrote:
Pretty much always been thus way.
Since everyone can do it, ifs not a problem overall.


I dunno about that. It's the frequency that concerns me, and the frighting reliance on D6 for the decision over D3. Played against a friend this weekend, he's playing Stormcast Dragons and every single unit in his entire army got a free ranged shot of mortals per turn. It was just nuts how much save ignoring wounds he was tossing around over and over again. None of our games lasted more than a single turn, and that got me thinking about the frequency of Mortals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It is bad and always has been, though it has been worse in the past. In my experience the community has overwhelmingly agreed from the start that MWs are a decent mechanic, there are just too many of them.

Handing out 6+ wards like candy helps, but affects regular damage as well and can reaaaallly slow down gameplay. Need more chaos runeshields in the game.


With the new Sigmar Dragons, it's hard to imagine it having been worse in the past. Wow, that must have been something.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/14 20:49:15


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I've watched a few games involving those dragons and almost all of them didn't go past turn 2. They are some of the most broken things I've seen GW produce pretty much ever.

I'd say Mat Ward's 7th edition demons may be a little more OP but they are certainly on the same stage.

The only time they weren't a big deal is in games facing another adepticon level list.

If you are playing a for fun or casual list, dont bother showing up for the game... you already know how it ends. You'll spend more time unpacking and packing your army than you will playing.
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

 auticus wrote:
I've watched a few games involving those dragons and almost all of them didn't go past turn 2. They are some of the most broken things I've seen GW produce pretty much ever.

I'd say Mat Ward's 7th edition demons may be a little more OP but they are certainly on the same stage.

The only time they weren't a big deal is in games facing another adepticon level list.

If you are playing a for fun or casual list, dont bother showing up for the game... you already know how it ends. You'll spend more time unpacking and packing your army than you will playing.


We played three games. Each game he was in charge ranger turn 1. The new Stormguard riders get a free 12 inch move in the hero phase "because dragon" or some gak. Then they get to breath on you for boku big damage, then charge for even more boku big damage. My Kragnos took 14 mortal wounds from four Fulminators before the charge (granted I didn't know about the updated sheet with the 6+ ward which is still absurd considering Kryndis (sp?) gets a 4+ ward and is only 600 points compared to Kraggy's 740.

It just sucks, the guy is a very good friend to me. But out of all my AoS buddies, he is the only one that I do not enjoy playing the game with. He goes balls to the wall hard every time. Never plays the objective, just rushes mad feat across the table and kicks your teeth in.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Yeah that sounds a lot like half of the group I was in before I quit AOS - for those same reasons. You either built Adepticon-Hard or you didn't bother showing up. And the answer you get when complaining about it is usually a universal variant of:

"well this doesn't dominate tournaments so its fine."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/14 21:22:45


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Togusa wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It is bad and always has been, though it has been worse in the past. In my experience the community has overwhelmingly agreed from the start that MWs are a decent mechanic, there are just too many of them.

Handing out 6+ wards like candy helps, but affects regular damage as well and can reaaaallly slow down gameplay. Need more chaos runeshields in the game.


With the new Sigmar Dragons, it's hard to imagine it having been worse in the past. Wow, that must have been something.

Oh it certainly was. My first edition tourney list reliably put out 40+ MWs a turn and still wasn't the most broken thing around!

Stormdrake Guard are definitely broken though. At least they didn't hit the field at their original point cost (285 vs eratta'd 340).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/14 21:34:25


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

 auticus wrote:
Yeah that sounds a lot like half of the group I was in before I quit AOS - for those same reasons. You either built Adepticon-Hard or you didn't bother showing up. And the answer you get when complaining about it is usually a universal variant of:

"well this doesn't dominate tournaments so its fine."


well fortunately the other 9 players don't do this. I have a lot of fun playing with them and our lists are very, varied. It's just I need to accept that one of my friends likes the hyper competitive play and maybe that's okay. Maybe we just can't play together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It is bad and always has been, though it has been worse in the past. In my experience the community has overwhelmingly agreed from the start that MWs are a decent mechanic, there are just too many of them.

Handing out 6+ wards like candy helps, but affects regular damage as well and can reaaaallly slow down gameplay. Need more chaos runeshields in the game.


With the new Sigmar Dragons, it's hard to imagine it having been worse in the past. Wow, that must have been something.

Oh it certainly was. My first edition tourney list reliably put out 40+ MWs a turn and still wasn't the most broken thing around!


That's nuts!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/14 21:32:13


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Togusa wrote:
 auticus wrote:
Yeah that sounds a lot like half of the group I was in before I quit AOS - for those same reasons. You either built Adepticon-Hard or you didn't bother showing up. And the answer you get when complaining about it is usually a universal variant of:

"well this doesn't dominate tournaments so its fine."


well fortunately the other 9 players don't do this. I have a lot of fun playing with them and our lists are very, varied. It's just I need to accept that one of my friends likes the hyper competitive play and maybe that's okay. Maybe we just can't play together.
Yeah, sometimes it's like that :(

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 Togusa wrote:
ccs wrote:
Pretty much always been thus way.
Since everyone can do it, ifs not a problem overall.


I dunno about that. It's the frequency that concerns me, and the frighting reliance on D6 for the decision over D3. Played against a friend this weekend, he's playing Stormcast Dragons and every single unit in his entire army got a free ranged shot of mortals per turn. It was just nuts how much save ignoring wounds he was tossing around over and over again. None of our games lasted more than a single turn, and that got me thinking about the frequency of Mortals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It is bad and always has been, though it has been worse in the past. In my experience the community has overwhelmingly agreed from the start that MWs are a decent mechanic, there are just too many of them.

Handing out 6+ wards like candy helps, but affects regular damage as well and can reaaaallly slow down gameplay. Need more chaos runeshields in the game.


With the new Sigmar Dragons, it's hard to imagine it having been worse in the past. Wow, that must have been something.



Oh, it's still something.

One of my favorite units: The Cockatrice.
100 pts, Beasts of Chaos, fly 12" Ranged Attack: 10" 4+ d6 MW Monster (but not Behemoth!), battlefield role: other/none Unit size: 1/single
And they're decently tough & fighty for their pts. if it comes to it. But really they're a MW delivery system.
I can (and do) fit a fair # of them into my Beastman army.
BUT, just in case....they can also be summoned by my beastmen shamans at a quite reasonable summoning pt cost & enter the table from any edge, 9"+ away from an enemy. How convenient that they have a 10" range.

They pair very well with Chimeras (behemoths). Who also fly. And who's fiery breath auto hits for....d6 MW. Also, Chimeras ARE tough & fighty.
Chimeras can be summoned as well, but they're way more expensive.

I like to run multiple "flocks" of 1 Chimera & 2 Cockatrices. Whatever my Behemoth allowance will allow.

But like I said, pretty much everyone has access to some sort of MW spam. Either native to their faction or via allies. So I'm not at all worried about it.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Well MW spam is certainly a thing but those units aren't part of the issue. Coacktrice is an average of 1.75 per round, chimera drops from d6 to d3 after taking 3 wounds to its 5+ save profile. Both of those units are squishy as hell, mitigating already very limited damage output. Consider that a cockatrice + chimera is 320 points, verses 2 stormdrake guard for 340.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

Four Fulminators can only inflict 12 MWs with their breath weapons, and that is if they roll super-hot (all four roll 4+ and then all roll a 5 or a 6 for the MWs. Stormdrake Guard can certainly produce more MWs, but its fairly swingy.

Having said all that, MWs can be a feels-bad moment.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well MW spam is certainly a thing but those units aren't part of the issue. Coacktrice is an average of 1.75 per round, chimera drops from d6 to d3 after taking 3 wounds to its 5+ save profile. Both of those units are squishy as hell, mitigating already very limited damage output. Consider that a cockatrice + chimera is 320 points, verses 2 stormdrake guard for 340.


So? It degrades to what the Stormdrake does 1/3 of the time even when at full health. (the other 2/3 being 1-2: nothing/5-6: d6) Even when my chimera is on its last wound it's doing at least 1mw. The drake on it's last leg? Still doing nothing on a 1-2....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 06:28:43


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well MW spam is certainly a thing but those units aren't part of the issue. Coacktrice is an average of 1.75 per round, chimera drops from d6 to d3 after taking 3 wounds to its 5+ save profile. Both of those units are squishy as hell, mitigating already very limited damage output. Consider that a cockatrice + chimera is 320 points, verses 2 stormdrake guard for 340.


If you don't think cockatrice MW isn't problem I trust you don't claim SCE dragon MW is problem. 1.75 per round, dragon 1.83 for almost double the price.

Or you don't claim dragons are causing something like 6 MW per round average?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 06:40:33


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






tneva82 wrote:
Or you don't claim dragons are causing something like 6 MW per round average?
Correct, I did not claim that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well MW spam is certainly a thing but those units aren't part of the issue. Coacktrice is an average of 1.75 per round, chimera drops from d6 to d3 after taking 3 wounds to its 5+ save profile. Both of those units are squishy as hell, mitigating already very limited damage output. Consider that a cockatrice + chimera is 320 points, verses 2 stormdrake guard for 340.


So? It degrades to what the Stormdrake does 1/3 of the time even when at full health. (the other 2/3 being 1-2: nothing/5-6: d6) Even when my chimera is on its last wound it's doing at least 1mw. The drake on it's last leg? Still doing nothing on a 1-2....
This is borderline troll levels of willfully obtuse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/15 16:23:44


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in lt
Longtime Dakkanaut






Mortal Wounds is just trash fix to a trash game design that allows all kinds of +1 save, 2+ unrendable, etc.
Now sprinkle this with extreme swing of 2d6, d6xd6, even multiple d6s, garnish with double turn "mechanic" and you have yourself a game where you just might as well put models away and throw dice at each other. The one with largest numbers wins.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 CragHack wrote:
Mortal Wounds is just trash fix to a trash game design that allows all kinds of +1 save, 2+ unrendable, etc.
Now sprinkle this with extreme swing of 2d6, d6xd6, even multiple d6s, garnish with double turn "mechanic" and you have yourself a game where you just might as well put models away and throw dice at each other. The one with largest numbers wins.


MW's has been a a thing all of AoS, not a fix to saves.

   
Made in lt
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Amishprn86 wrote:
 CragHack wrote:
Mortal Wounds is just trash fix to a trash game design that allows all kinds of +1 save, 2+ unrendable, etc.
Now sprinkle this with extreme swing of 2d6, d6xd6, even multiple d6s, garnish with double turn "mechanic" and you have yourself a game where you just might as well put models away and throw dice at each other. The one with largest numbers wins.


MW's has been a a thing all of AoS, not a fix to saves.


How about rerollable liberator 2+ save, back in 1st ed? I really haven't played back then, but I'm sure there were other cancerous options. I bet they just went with the though "oh, we fethed 7th so badly, we definitely missed something, but let's just give a pass with MWs as an easy fix to bypass that". And now it's just going out of hand with units getting more and more of this crap...

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






MWs are a good mechanic to bypass armor and generally represent very powerful/magical methods of offense. But a good mechanic can still be overused.

I think that AoS should move to a rule of thumb where units can do MWs on a wound roll trigger but not on a hit roll trigger. The attack sequence is hit-wound-save, skipping one of those is workable but skipping two of them (via MWs from hit rolls of 6, or similar mechanics) causes problems and should only be used in very niche cases. Stuff like Kruleboyz should really be 6s to hit auto-wounding, both mechanically and thematically. After all what about poisoning a weapon makes it ignore armor entirely?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/19 21:17:56


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I dont mind the concept of mortal wounds.

I mind that its candy and everyone has a ton of it.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 CragHack wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 CragHack wrote:
Mortal Wounds is just trash fix to a trash game design that allows all kinds of +1 save, 2+ unrendable, etc.
Now sprinkle this with extreme swing of 2d6, d6xd6, even multiple d6s, garnish with double turn "mechanic" and you have yourself a game where you just might as well put models away and throw dice at each other. The one with largest numbers wins.


MW's has been a a thing all of AoS, not a fix to saves.


How about rerollable liberator 2+ save, back in 1st ed? I really haven't played back then, but I'm sure there were other cancerous options. I bet they just went with the though "oh, we fethed 7th so badly, we definitely missed something, but let's just give a pass with MWs as an easy fix to bypass that". And now it's just going out of hand with units getting more and more of this crap...


1st also had "if the opponent kneels in front of all, all your dragons get re-rolls" or "If you have a beard all your dwarfs re-roll hits" and "Roar really loud to gain +1 to hits for Beastmen"

1st can not be used as any measurement for a game, it was design to say "We are not fantasy and if you don't like it well then go away"

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Central Valley, California

Lots of ward saves and such. Games gotta end sometime.

~ Shrap

Rolling 1's for five and a half decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * Trench Crusade * Horus Heresy * The Old World * Armoured Clash 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

 Amishprn86 wrote:
 CragHack wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 CragHack wrote:
Mortal Wounds is just trash fix to a trash game design that allows all kinds of +1 save, 2+ unrendable, etc.
Now sprinkle this with extreme swing of 2d6, d6xd6, even multiple d6s, garnish with double turn "mechanic" and you have yourself a game where you just might as well put models away and throw dice at each other. The one with largest numbers wins.


MW's has been a a thing all of AoS, not a fix to saves.


How about rerollable liberator 2+ save, back in 1st ed? I really haven't played back then, but I'm sure there were other cancerous options. I bet they just went with the though "oh, we fethed 7th so badly, we definitely missed something, but let's just give a pass with MWs as an easy fix to bypass that". And now it's just going out of hand with units getting more and more of this crap...


1st also had "if the opponent kneels in front of all, all your dragons get re-rolls" or "If you have a beard all your dwarfs re-roll hits" and "Roar really loud to gain +1 to hits for Beastmen"

1st can not be used as any measurement for a game, it was design to say "We are not fantasy and if you don't like it well then go away"


I mean the kneeling and beard mechanics are pretty fething dope though, and made for some pretty interesting game design.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
Lots of ward saves and such. Games gotta end sometime.


Wards don't worry about whether it's ward or not...

And with rerollable saves going away it's hardly issue anymore. And if you want stuff to die without MW's prevent save stacking instead so that -2/-3 actually puts proper dent to saves.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Eh, I've never seen save stacking as a big issue. There is a tactical cost to doing that, and it is rarely on more than one unit at a time. There are a lot of means to counter-play. And if worst comes to worst they gotta roll 1s eventually.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





tneva82 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well MW spam is certainly a thing but those units aren't part of the issue. Coacktrice is an average of 1.75 per round, chimera drops from d6 to d3 after taking 3 wounds to its 5+ save profile. Both of those units are squishy as hell, mitigating already very limited damage output. Consider that a cockatrice + chimera is 320 points, verses 2 stormdrake guard for 340.


If you don't think cockatrice MW isn't problem I trust you don't claim SCE dragon MW is problem. 1.75 per round, dragon 1.83 for almost double the price.

Or you don't claim dragons are causing something like 6 MW per round average?


See the thing with the Stormdrakes is it's not JUST their MW breath, which frankly isn't the big deal. It's the massive amount of wounds with a 3+ save, that also gets to ignore spells on a 4+, that also gets a free hero phase move of 12" once per game (which is over half the width of the no-man's land in the center usually) plus their regular fly move, and their good melee profiles. They're in the lines of the Lumineth Sentinels, which are in my recent experience THE MW producers to beat.

Cockatrices just have a 6+ save and kinda stink in combat, don't move quite that fast either. At least they can screech in the charge phase for some Beasts of Chaos Primordial Call points though. 5 Cockatrices vs 2 Chimeras? Hmmmm, think I'd go with the Cockatrices actually.

MW are fine but not only do too many units do them too easily, often those units do SOOOO much else that it's usually not fair by most people's senses.

   
 
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