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Um, Cain books also said he defeats a Black Legionnaire in martial combat....And an ork Warboss. As had been pointed out to me several times, Cain books are not a source of fact.

When he's talking about his own life and exploits though. A precision lance strike is a thing, its just most Imperial ships don't have them. Chaos vessels on the other hand tend to be much older, often Crusade era or even earlier designs where the Lance weapons are much more advanced.

According to recent lore, Haarken Worldclaimer has arrived in the region with what might be the largest Chaos fleet ever. That's probably the reason why the Imperial fleet isn't able to give much support to ground forces.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, Cain books also said he defeats a Black Legionnaire in martial combat....And an ork Warboss. As had been pointed out to me several times, Cain books are not a source of fact.

I don't see why not, they're backed up by the word of an inquisitor who is able to see through his facade and the ork warboss fight was captured on holovid by Felicia and widely distributed (although it is rather humorous that amberly wasn't personally there in most of the final battles so we're mostly relying on Cain's word). But regardless, no reason not to expect the lance strike descriptions are reliable.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, Cain books also said he defeats a Black Legionnaire in martial combat....And an ork Warboss. As had been pointed out to me several times, Cain books are not a source of fact.

I don't see why not, they're backed up by the word of an inquisitor who is able to see through his facade and the ork warboss fight was captured on holovid by Felicia and widely distributed (although it is rather humorous that amberly wasn't personally there in most of the final battles so we're mostly relying on Cain's word). But regardless, no reason not to expect the lance strike descriptions are reliable.

An inquisitor who's fully on board with the stated goal of using Cain's exploits to instill courage and hope in the common soldier. Something tells me Vail, let alone the INQUISITION would not be against heightening some of the details of the memoirs to add effect, or "enhancing the truth" as some say. Vail makes it clear on several occasions that she is completely fine with puffing up his reputation. Hell, even Astartes chapters do him honors that no other base human would be allowed. He duels with and holds his own against a veteran Tech marine of the Chapter he's assigned to in one of the books. Cain admits that the Marine was likely not going 100% but still. Even a newly made astartes should have no problems dueling a base human.

So much of what's in Cains books are puff pieces akin to the promo materials that flooded the ranks during WW2. It's all just propaganda.

Whilst Cain is largely propaganda, it is not unheard of for exceptional human duelists to hold their own or win against Astartes in combat. Very uncommon, sure, but in general the most skilled humans are comparable to Astartes, whilst the most skilled Astartes can challenge even the Primarchs (this latter group is an extremely limited cadre of exceptional combatants, like Abaddon, Sigismund, Corswain).

There was a member of the Lucifer Blacks who managed to land a blow on Alpharius in combat.

Cain MIGHT be a singularly skilled swordsman, but it's somewhat silly to say that even he could hold off a Black Legionnaire captain with just a chain sword. They literally move faster than his brain can perceive. It's not a matter of skill. It's like saying a base human could hold off a Death Jester with a chain sword.

Interdiction duties.

As in, stopping more enemy forces making it into the contested war zones.

Sure, Chaos as a whole had a lot of warships etc. But they’re rarely a formal Navy, and tend to lack the cohesion of The Imperial Navy.

In some ways, that’s a Boon, as they’re less likely to be acting entirely in concert (but are a significant problem when they do, ref Gothic War).

In other ways, it’s a hindrance as with no overall plan, it can be difficult to counter them. An Imperial Battlegroup could well be tracking a given Chaos Fleet - but if that tracked fleet suddenly splinters? Yes you can completely overwhelm and crush one of them…but not all of them.

And so you go to interdiction. Blockade strategic areas and give anything trying to punch through as much of a kicking as you can. Some will be eradicated. Some will be greatly reduced. Others will be missed entirely. But it’s still the best use of whatever assets you have. The more you can prevent new Boots on the Ground, the easier your own planetside defences have it.

They’ll also be providing Escort Duties, to ensure Imperial Reinforcements can make it planetside. And not just troops, but supplies and materiel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, Cain books also said he defeats a Black Legionnaire in martial combat....And an ork Warboss. As had been pointed out to me several times, Cain books are not a source of fact.

I don't see why not, they're backed up by the word of an inquisitor who is able to see through his facade and the ork warboss fight was captured on holovid by Felicia and widely distributed (although it is rather humorous that amberly wasn't personally there in most of the final battles so we're mostly relying on Cain's word). But regardless, no reason not to expect the lance strike descriptions are reliable.

An inquisitor who's fully on board with the stated goal of using Cain's exploits to instill courage and hope in the common soldier. Something tells me Vail, let alone the INQUISITION would not be against heightening some of the details of the memoirs to add effect, or "enhancing the truth" as some say. Vail makes it clear on several occasions that she is completely fine with puffing up his reputation. Hell, even Astartes chapters do him honors that no other base human would be allowed. He duels with and holds his own against a veteran Tech marine of the Chapter he's assigned to in one of the books. Cain admits that the Marine was likely not going 100% but still. Even a newly made astartes should have no problems dueling a base human.

So much of what's in Cains books are puff pieces akin to the promo materials that flooded the ranks during WW2. It's all just propaganda.

Also see The Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer….

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, Cain books also said he defeats a Black Legionnaire in martial combat....And an ork Warboss. As had been pointed out to me several times, Cain books are not a source of fact.

I don't see why not, they're backed up by the word of an inquisitor who is able to see through his facade and the ork warboss fight was captured on holovid by Felicia and widely distributed (although it is rather humorous that amberly wasn't personally there in most of the final battles so we're mostly relying on Cain's word). But regardless, no reason not to expect the lance strike descriptions are reliable.

An inquisitor who's fully on board with the stated goal of using Cain's exploits to instill courage and hope in the common soldier. Something tells me Vail, let alone the INQUISITION would not be against heightening some of the details of the memoirs to add effect, or "enhancing the truth" as some say. Vail makes it clear on several occasions that she is completely fine with puffing up his reputation. Hell, even Astartes chapters do him honors that no other base human would be allowed. He duels with and holds his own against a veteran Tech marine of the Chapter he's assigned to in one of the books. Cain admits that the Marine was likely not going 100% but still. Even a newly made astartes should have no problems dueling a base human.

So much of what's in Cains books are puff pieces akin to the promo materials that flooded the ranks during WW2. It's all just propaganda.

I'm not saying Cain is 100% reliable narrator or anything, but why would the Cain archive be full of propaganda for the common soldier? The archive is locked behind inquisitorial seal due to it's candid nature. Cain is a remarkably skilled human particularly in a duel. Like you said, Cain was of the opinion that the astartes was holding back in that duel, so I don't see an issue with him doing well in that duel not meshing with the innate strength of an astartes. On top of this Amberly's stated purpose for putting the Cain archive together was for other inquisitors to gain insight into the enemies of the Imperium, being an unreliable editor would be counterproductive to that as it would draw other inquisitors to the wrong conclusions.

Regardless, my original point that lance batteries can be of remarkably high precision stands regardless of the reliability of Cain as a narrator. Any inquisitor would be able to immediately verify or dismiss the veracity of that claim so puffing up the abilities of the imperial navy in a text that can only be accessed by other inquisitors seems rather pointless (and also counter productive to Amberly's purpose of organizing the Cain narrative).

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Cain MIGHT be a singularly skilled swordsman, but it's somewhat silly to say that even he could hold off a Black Legionnaire captain with just a chain sword. They literally move faster than his brain can perceive. It's not a matter of skill. It's like saying a base human could hold off a Death Jester with a chain sword.

Humans counter stuff that "moves faster than their brain can perceive" all the time, at least in a sense. No one returns a 100+mph tennis serve because their reactions are insane, they do it through rapid prediction.

I also don't buy that Astartes strictly move "faster than a human brain can perceive", but I think they will make movements quicker than a human can react to (non-trivial distinction). The thing is, humans already do this all the time, and have evolved to cope with it, through a variety of mechanisms such as proprioception and ballistic movements. If you can sprint, or play the piano well, you are already capable of correcting your own movements quicker than you can react in a traditional sense (obviously you are still reacting, but using unconscious shortcuts rather than conscious feedback loops from your extremities). The exceptionally skilled in certain tasks are able to make these kind of unconscious predictions for others too, and respond ahead of time.

In an empire of trillions upon trillions of humans, it is not surprising that a small minority are sufficiently skilled in combat that they could fight Astartes (with weaponry, unarmed this is less likely), although obviously they are on the back foot even with superior skill, due to the innate strength and durability advantages of the Astartes.

Not to mention all kinds of augmentation that goes on. Genetic, cybernetic, mutative; to say nothing of natural genetic variation from different worlds and upbringings.


Look at Orlock gangers, stimmed up so that they are insanely strong compared to a normal human.

Even Space marines are the result of such tinkering.

 Haighus wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Cain MIGHT be a singularly skilled swordsman, but it's somewhat silly to say that even he could hold off a Black Legionnaire captain with just a chain sword. They literally move faster than his brain can perceive. It's not a matter of skill. It's like saying a base human could hold off a Death Jester with a chain sword.

Humans counter stuff that "moves faster than their brain can perceive" all the time, at least in a sense. No one returns a 100+mph tennis serve because their reactions are insane, they do it through rapid prediction.

I also don't buy that Astartes strictly move "faster than a human brain can perceive", but I think they will make movements quicker than a human can react to (non-trivial distinction). The thing is, humans already do this all the time, and have evolved to cope with it, through a variety of mechanisms such as proprioception and ballistic movements. If you can sprint, or play the piano well, you are already capable of correcting your own movements quicker than you can react in a traditional sense (obviously you are still reacting, but using unconscious shortcuts rather than conscious feedback loops from your extremities). The exceptionally skilled in certain tasks are able to make these kind of unconscious predictions for others too, and respond ahead of time.

In an empire of trillions upon trillions of humans, it is not surprising that a small minority are sufficiently skilled in combat that they could fight Astartes (with weaponry, unarmed this is less likely), although obviously they are on the back foot even with superior skill, due to the innate strength and durability advantages of the Astartes.

Without getting off track with "real world examples" it's akin to the Fast movement of DBZ. Around the time of the Piccolo saga, All the Z fighters can move so fast, you can't actually see their movement. It's like teleporting. By the end of the Cell Saga, Goku can move so fast, that when he fights Cell, literally no one but Gohan can actually see them fighting. Even Trunks and Vegeta have difficulty following. Point is, would you believe that Amberly was, or would be, capable of altering the "True account" of that fight? What if what really happened was Cain' parried one or two blows, and then Yugen Cut him in half with a Melta shot? That wouldn't fit the hero's narrative, so they drummed up this nonsense of him fighting off a BL Astartes, for over several minutes, until Yugen could shoot him. I think you have to take literally all Cain's books as Fictional trollup created by the Inquisition and the Administratum in order to boost moral.

And yet still Lance strikes are thing despite all that.

Again, which begs the question, if it has no actual tactical purpose in so far as you're likely to kill just as many of yours as theirs, what good are ship to shore batteries? Surely there has to be a more accurate way to provide direct fire from orbit to ground. Missiles? I mean, Drop pods can hit within a relatively accurate "They will all land within the same square kilometer..."

Missiles are easy - the enemy has effective anti-missile cover. You can use them but they won't work all that well and many will be lost. The cost is greater than that of sending more of the guard in to flood the defences with bodies and breach the wall.

Then on another world with different missiles and different anti-missile tech - BOOM the missiles get through and work.




Which is another thing to consider with the setting. Whilst there are standard builds and setups across the Galaxy; even with the religious Mechanicus, there's still huge variation in what's actually present in each area. Small refinements, small mistakes; ancient tech that isn't maintained through to fully working ancient and xenos tech etc... As a result the same concept might work in one battle but not another.

We have the same things in the real world and we are a tiny blip in 40K terms. Across a whole Galaxy the potential for variety over distance, let alone time, is phenomenal

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, which begs the question, if it has no actual tactical purpose in so far as you're likely to kill just as many of yours as theirs, what good are ship to shore batteries? Surely there has to be a more accurate way to provide direct fire from orbit to ground. Missiles? I mean, Drop pods can hit within a relatively accurate "They will all land within the same square kilometer..."

Counter point.

What makes you think the Imperium has any qualms whatsoever in blatting it’s own troops if it overall gets the job done?

Sure, a Naval Admiral or Captain might have a hard time explaining that to an Astartes if it costs Astartes lives….but that’s just about it overall. The Guard are disposable. The Ad Mech are largely disposable (and they’ll recover what they can). Even Astartes, when it’s Orbital Bombardment or Bust will make that call if it salvages victory from possible defeat.

I see your point, and I acknowledge the truth of it. I just don't think that's what actually happens. I mean, yes, the navy has no qualms about it, but then why did Cadia get invaded so gosh darn ALWAYS, and only ever get defended by barely pre-teens with their parent's las rifle? Surely at the fall of Cadia, with several astartes Warships, an entire Naval fleet, and the darn Imperial Fists Battle fortress, someone could have spared a shot or two on the surface to take out the Black Legionaires strutting around the planet? Same with Armagheddon. What was keeping the BT fleets from firing a couple shots at the Gargants stomping through the city?

Because the Ork fleet held Armageddon's orbit. The Imperial fleet had to resort to hit and run attacks.

Except the fleet was able to "hold in place" for over 10 days, before they ran away. They landed shuttles, and sent troops to the surface. Then they did it again with the Salamanders. They couldn't have relayed targeting coordinates to the strike cruiser?

The Salamanders run nearly failed if you remember correctly and Drop Pods also have internal guidance systems. A blind Lance strike on a city that the Imperium very much is trying not to burn isn't exactly a good idea.

Imperial cities are often very deep structures. So if the orks are on a set of upper levels, a lance strike could easily tear through multiple sublevels that might not have any orks inside. To say nothing of the damage to the structure itself. The wrong shot and half the city could collapse in on itself.

If you look at the BFG stats, the ground to orbit laser silos and missile launchers basically outmatch escort sized ships and cruisers, and at a far lower cost (if point value is a rough indicator of cost). A ship has plasma engines, warp engine, as well as void shields and gellar field all in a compact enough form to be mobile. Miniaturization of that tech over an immobile version of it is almost certainly going to cost more and involve rarer harder to produce tech than the stationary version.

Cost benefit analysis could be why ships don't provide more orbital fire support. They put themselves more at risk if there are previously undiscovered anti-ship weapons on the surface or weapons that have been captured by the enemy. Getting a cruiser or battleship heavily damaged in exchange for taking out a cheaper more replaceable laser silo on the surface would probably lead to some hard questions being asked within the Imperial Navy's admiralty.

In addition, the Third War for Armageddon did feature large-scale use of orbital bombardments. The Orks themselves are specifically noted as bombarding Imperial forces that tried to form up into battlelines in the Ash Wastes. Notably, Hive Hades was utterly obliterated by asteroids dropped from orbiting space hulks.

However, it is also noted how surface-to-orbit defense lasers and missile silos exacted a heavy toll on the Ork forces, so clearly such bombardments were extremely costly.

The Ork forces widely deployed roks to the surface of Armageddon. These are fortified asteroid bases with warship-grade weaponry. They would almost certainly provide the Ork ground forces with surface-to-orbit defences of their own. Orks were also noted as capturing Imperial fortifications and using their weaponry.

Despite this, detachments of Imperial warships also spent a lot of time in close orbital support once they regained control of the space around Armageddon. This included orbital bombardments and strike craft sorties.

In short, orbital bombardment played a big role, but appears to have been very risky and costly to sustain. There are countermeasures, they work.

As a side note, the Epic Armageddon rules explicitly allow Lunar-class cruisers (the most common cruiser pattern in the Imperium) to perform precision orbital strikes at the level of hitting individual warmachines. Clearly the ability to do this is widespread (this isn't surprising when warships have weapons systems designed to engage targets as small as 1500m at 30,000-60,000km distance- making a low orbit pass would be at a far closer range of a few hundred to thousands of km).