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I have not done a poll, and clearly crave the attention.

Anyway this came up briefly in discussion elsewhere.

I think there is enough in both ranges to be separate rounded armies. There are multiple ways the fluff can be handled. The codex's would be more manageable, would be easier to balance (cue laughter), armies would look better, etc.

I know some think the Primaris range need more options, or that the best builds cherry pick from both. I would ask you to imagine a time where both ranges had balanced competitive rules. At the very least hopefully there would be less pointless Datatfax. You could also have more of a crossover with Heresy gear for the mini marines, a better focus on the straightforward Primaris for beginners, etc.

I don't think we need another Codex that GW feels it has to make two attempts at per edition once they inevitably power creep the first attempt into obscurity.

One is more than enough.

They'll probably move Firstborn to their own game system before they make a separate codex.

Honestly, IMO, Legends should have been its own game system a la 30k. It's own ruleset based on older editions, with rules for models that no longer exist (and older ones that still do), and just semi-regular campaign books based on the classic battlefields (Vraks, Armageddon, First Tyrannic War, Badab War, etc.)

They should just throw both lines together. A Marine with a plasma gun is a marine with a plasma gun, we don't need 4 different kinds of Marines with a plasma gun where only the Marine player can see the difference, especially with the scale 40K has nowadays. I'm using my old Plague Marines from third edition right next to Plague Marines from 8th edition. Let loyalists do the same and don't force them to buy 2 Codizes + whatever supplement.

I don't see there's any benefit. The major issue when balancing a codex is the free chapter style rules, I don't think the marine codex has balance issues that split along the first born/ primaris line.

It would mean a lot of marine players now need 3 books too. That's 200% more than any other faction.

I don't see it being positive at all.

I wouldn't mind less differentiation between primaris and first born.

A doctrinal split between a heresy/indomitus style organisation and a post heresy codex organisation would be cool. So either all similar equipment in a squad with some sort of side benefit or a flexible approach that brings its own benefits through flexibility.

The last thing this game needs is another space marines codex.

Oh Lordy no.

I just fail to see what purpose it would serve. At present, one can field a purist army for either incarnation if that’s what tickles your pickle, or mix and match to your heart’s content.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I have not done a poll, and clearly crave the attention.

Anyway this came up briefly in discussion elsewhere.

I think there is enough in both ranges to be separate rounded armies. There are multiple ways the fluff can be handled. The codex's would be more manageable, would be easier to balance (cue laughter), armies would look better, etc.

I know some think the Primaris range need more options, or that the best builds cherry pick from both. I would ask you to imagine a time where both ranges had balanced competitive rules. At the very least hopefully there would be less pointless Datatfax. You could also have more of a crossover with Heresy gear for the mini marines, a better focus on the straightforward Primaris for beginners, etc.

NO.

I did not appreciate the 9e scam of needing SM Codex + SW + DA. I now need 3 books where 2 used to suffice. Beginners be damned, I don't want it to become 4 books to do the job of 2! Only a dumb would want that.
And should GW go this rout?? I will definitely pirate their stuff this time.

If anything we need consolidation of the profiles. Throw the Special/Heavy weapon options on Intercessors and call it a day.

I voted yes simply because the current book is too large, too many options.

I'm not sure what the best answer is.

Keep them together, but consolidate. A marine is a marine. Intercessor squad? That’s just a tac squad, maybe with an AGL as a special. Swap in a hellblaster model if you want a plasma gun. Assault intercessors? Assault marines without JPs.

Make sure each box can build a legal unit, but trim all the bloat you can. You want an option allowed on the datasheet but not in the box? Kitbash or swap parts around. The marine range is deep and interchangable.

I wouldn't go that far with it. At most I'd consolidate the profiles that have less of a need to be individualised or can be easily made into wargear upgrades. Stuff like Gravis, Phobos, Jump, and Bike characters. Intercessors should absolutely be made into one profile with the option to kit them out as Assault or Tactical but there should still be the distinction between Firstborn and Primaris units.

Split them up. I'm tired of my army being used to prop up the new line while they figure out how to maximize profits.

 Gert wrote:
I wouldn't go that far with it. At most I'd consolidate the profiles that have less of a need to be individualised or can be easily made into wargear upgrades. Stuff like Gravis, Phobos, Jump, and Bike characters. Intercessors should absolutely be made into one profile with the option to kit them out as Assault or Tactical but there should still be the distinction between Firstborn and Primaris units.

Once they gave firstborn the second wound I started asking “why the distinction?”

In my opinion the datasheet bloat for similar units that could be consolidated is not worth it.

I’d rather have a “battleline squad” that encompasses multiple options then stuff getting squatted/legends.

 Nevelon wrote:
Once they gave firstborn the second wound I started asking “why the distinction?”

I would argue this is a wider issue for 40k as a whole with the system of dice and the limits placed on things like Strength, Toughness, and Wounds.
The baseline should be along the lines of:
Basic Humans/Fire Warriors/lesser Nid beasts i.e. Gaunts/Gants at 1 Wound
Tougher things like Orks/Necron Warrior classes/Aeldari at 2 Wounds
Units like Marines or Nobz would be 3 and so on so forth.
A Shuriken Catapult or Bolter would mince a Guardsman or Termagant but still do significant damage to a Space Marine without killing them.
I dunno, I ain't a game designer and this is just something I thought up on the spot.

 Gert wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Once they gave firstborn the second wound I started asking “why the distinction?”

I would argue this is a wider issue for 40k as a whole where the system of dice and the limits placed on things like Strength, Toughness, and Wounds.
The baseline should be along the lines of:
Basic Humans/Fire Warriors/lesser Nid beasts i.e. Gaunts/Gants at 1 Wound
Tougher things like Orks/Necron Warrior classes/Aeldari at 2 Wounds
Units like Marines or Nobz would be 3 and so on so forth.
A Shuriken Catapult or Bolter would mince a Guardsman or Termagant but still do significant damage to a Space Marine without killing them.
I dunno, I ain't a game designer and this is just something I thought up on the spot.

There is a lot to break down about the statlines. The d6 does not give a whole lot of wiggle room to work with, and a lot of stats are tightly clustered across the game. How do we differentiate armies/units? What does a wound represent?

But that is more a game-wide scope question, and less relevant to if primaris/firstborn should share a codex. Especially as it would require a 3rd/8th level hard reboot of every unit in the game.

 Nevelon wrote:
But that is more a game-wide scope question, and less relevant to if primaris/firstborn should share a codex. Especially as it would require a 3rd/8th level hard reboot of every unit in the game.

Just brought it up as an extension of the "wounds" point you made.
The consolidation you propose strays into "hammer to crack a nut" IMO. You'd lose too much that makes each side of the army its own thing in an effort to reduce the size of the Codex, and while a sandbox can be nice for creativity, creativity isn't for everyone and some people prefer to have things set out in specific boundaries.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
They should just throw both lines together. A Marine with a plasma gun is a marine with a plasma gun, we don't need 4 different kinds of Marines with a plasma gun where only the Marine player can see the difference, especially with the scale 40K has nowadays. I'm using my old Plague Marines from third edition right next to Plague Marines from 8th edition. Let loyalists do the same and don't force them to buy 2 Codizes + whatever supplement.

This. Experiment failed. Use marines as whatever role they're armed for with whatever they're holding. use whatever scale you prefer, just be aware that future releases will be in the larger scale.

Definitely no to more books to invalidate and replace and churn and burn.

 Nevelon wrote:
Keep them together, but consolidate. A marine is a marine. Intercessor squad? That’s just a tac squad, maybe with an AGL as a special. Swap in a hellblaster model if you want a plasma gun. Assault intercessors? Assault marines without JPs.

Make sure each box can build a legal unit, but trim all the bloat you can. You want an option allowed on the datasheet but not in the box? Kitbash or swap parts around. The marine range is deep and interchangable.

Yeah, hard agree – conflate, unify and streamline the whole thing so a Marine's a Marine and a Bolter's a Bolter, and leave it at that.

 Gert wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
But that is more a game-wide scope question, and less relevant to if primaris/firstborn should share a codex. Especially as it would require a 3rd/8th level hard reboot of every unit in the game.

Just brought it up as an extension of the "wounds" point you made.
The consolidation you propose strays into "hammer to crack a nut" IMO. You'd lose too much that makes each side of the army its own thing in an effort to reduce the size of the Codex, and while a sandbox can be nice for creativity, creativity isn't for everyone and some people prefer to have things set out in specific boundaries.

That’s fair.

I see your point, and don’t completely disagree. I’d love to have the best of both worlds. All the new stuff, all the old stuff. Tons of options, but friendly to new players. But we are so bloated at this point. I don’t want to split the codex. It like primaris fighting shoulder to shoulder with the firstborn. But what can we do to reduce the amount of units? Without just deleting stuff?

Something needs to happen. GW cannot stay on the present course they're on with SM's. They cannot keep adding more and more units. Infinite expansion is not realistic.

 oni wrote:
Something needs to happen. GW cannot stay on the present course they're on with SM's. They cannot keep adding more and more units. Infinite expansion is not realistic.

They're still making money, why would they stop?

 Nevelon wrote:
Keep them together, but consolidate. A marine is a marine. Intercessor squad? That’s just a tac squad, maybe with an AGL as a special. Swap in a hellblaster model if you want a plasma gun. Assault intercessors? Assault marines without JPs.

Make sure each box can build a legal unit, but trim all the bloat you can. You want an option allowed on the datasheet but not in the box? Kitbash or swap parts around. The marine range is deep and interchangable.

The AGL can go back to being grenade status.

I mean, my dream Marine squad is the Intercessor profile, they can choose either a Special or Heavy at 5 dudes, and then an Extra Special and Heavy at 10 dudes. AGL then goes back to Grenade status but with extended range.

Nothing about it is broken, it just merely gives the idea of what Marines should be.

That s a very bad idea - they could def consolodate many sheets rather than having a weapon option as a entire dataslate and also stop wasting so much space on blank paper.

Yeah, honestly they should just slam Primaris and Firstborn together, both thematically and rules-wise.

If they don't, though, they should separate them.

 oni wrote:
Something needs to happen. GW cannot stay on the present course they're on with SM's. They cannot keep adding more and more units. Infinite expansion is not realistic.

Why do SM need new stuff? I mean new units with new datasheets. Most of the other factions' releases are just new kits of already existing units/models. And primaris already have a pretty wide range.

Replacing in terms of updating, instead of expanding. GW (and the fanbase) lived for decades without tons of new SM stuff every year, the new line of models shouldn't be the excuse to throw countless new kits every edition, which are totally unnecessary both modelwise and rulewise.

Re-do tons of stuff for AM, craftworlds (already happening), drukhari, chaos SM and tyranids instead, before even thinking about expanding the SM roster. Maybe also tau.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:They should just throw both lines together. A Marine with a plasma gun is a marine with a plasma gun, we don't need 4 different kinds of Marines with a plasma gun where only the Marine player can see the difference, especially with the scale 40K has nowadays. I'm using my old Plague Marines from third edition right next to Plague Marines from 8th edition. Let loyalists do the same and don't force them to buy 2 Codizes + whatever supplement.

Nevelon wrote:Keep them together, but consolidate. A marine is a marine. Intercessor squad? That’s just a tac squad, maybe with an AGL as a special. Swap in a hellblaster model if you want a plasma gun. Assault intercessors? Assault marines without JPs.

Make sure each box can build a legal unit, but trim all the bloat you can. You want an option allowed on the datasheet but not in the box? Kitbash or swap parts around. The marine range is deep and interchangable.

These. The primaris models really seem to be a modeling choice (truescale marines), but GW was worried that such a major scale creep on their most popular/profitable faction would turn people away. Plus, it's harder to sell tall tactical marines (intercessors) than it is to sell a "new" unit with a beefier statline. So they came up with fluff about a super secret but also really expansive project that has been in the works for 10,000 years to explain the sudden introduction of tall marines.

We can't really put that major of a fluff genie back in the bottle, but we can spare ourselves unnecessary bloat of datasheets. An intercessor and a bolter marine can just use the same datasheet. Fluff your dudes as primaris or firstborn as you see fit, but ultimately it's a T4 W2 Sv3+ guy with a bolter. We don't have to split hairs on whether one guy's bolter has better AP than the other's. They're essentially the same thing. Hellblasters are your new plasmagun marines. Eradicators are your new melta/multi-melta marines. It's fine. Sticking a hellblaster in the same squad as some intercessors hasn't made Death Watch overpowered, and it won't make smurfs or space puppies overpowered either.

I'd be tempted to make the heavy/assault variants of intercessor and hellblaster weapons into a benefit you unlock via chapter tactics. So certain chapters might have the option to fire the heavy version of their guns on turns that they hold still. Other chapters might get the Assault 3 versions of those guns on turns that they advance.

Intercessors/eradicators/hellblasters/heavy intercessors = marines with bolters and special weapons. Just use them as tac/dev/sternguard squads. I think I'd be okay with gravis armor just being mechanically the same as power armor.
Assault Intercessors = assault marines. GW already has a jump pack kit that looks pretty okay when you replace the backpack with it.
Reivers = either assault marines or scouts (with melee options). Alternatively, just lump reivers, infiltrators, and off-brand-infiltrators (the haywire mine guys) into a single unit. Possibly alongside scouts. Basically the Spectrus kill team from Death Watch.
Primaris and non-primaris versions of characters are 95% the same already. Just ditch the primaris-specific limitations on primaris buffs, and let the tech priests have their weapon options regardless of primaris status.
Outriders = bikes with optional chainsword upgrades.
Transports can carry both primaris/non-primaris models because the "primaris" keyword can just go away. We already have to pretend a rhino can carry 10 marines; who cares if they're slightly bulkier than before? It's a clown car either way.
Dreads... probably have to stay split up. Although some of them could probably just become a wargear or upgrade option for others. (What is a ven dread but a normal dread with a statline boost and a special rule?)

Do that, and you remove what? About 12 datasheets from the codex? More if you find a clean way to combine phobos and non-phobos versions of characters.

 Hairesy wrote:
Split them up. I'm tired of my army being used to prop up the new line while they figure out how to maximize profits.

Also, as Primaris get more and more stuff with each edition it is just going to mean that a single Codex gets too big, and too many things to even attempt at balancing.

From a fluff point, it also opens up the possibility of doing a schism between chapters that are against Primaris and those that are in favour of them.

This,

Sgt. Cortez wrote:They should just throw both lines together. A Marine with a plasma gun is a marine with a plasma gun, we don't need 4 different kinds of Marines with a plasma gun where only the Marine player can see the difference, especially with the scale 40K has nowadays. I'm using my old Plague Marines from third edition right next to Plague Marines from 8th edition. Let loyalists do the same and don't force them to buy 2 Codizes + whatever supplement.

And this,

stonehorse wrote:

Spoiler:

 Hairesy wrote:
Split them up. I'm tired of my army being used to prop up the new line while they figure out how to maximize profits.

Also, as Primaris get more and more stuff with each edition it is just going to mean that a single Codex gets too big, and too many things to even attempt at balancing.

From a fluff point, it also opens up the possibility of doing a schism between chapters that are against Primaris and those that are in favour of them.

Are good answers imho.

First off, restartes should have been rolled out as new marines full stop. Updated models. No rievers tacticool bs. No sniper bullets that shoot backwards and around walls, no grappling bs and no stupid I named every idiot…

That rubicon crossed, now, however, split em up. For my dudes, restartes are obvious heresy. Burn them with righteous fire, and their leader girly man too… punk wannabe traitor heretic. Cawl, the face of obvious chaos taint. Somewhere, Tzeentch is laughing backwards at all this … so yeah, they do not belong on the same book.

There's nothing wrong with the Tacticool Marines besides the fact they were made into two separate troops for no good reason.