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I prefer OG marine, as opposed to numarine or restartes.

No. This causes a whole host of problems without solving any. Do squatmarines and numarines get updates at the same time? How about supplements? Are we going to have 2 supplements for each faction now? DA, SW, BA, BT, DW each get 2 books, on top of the 2 books you now have to buy and carry with you to play codex SM? Do marines now get 4 codexes per edition or do you alternate and every year one of them gets screwed? Does GW have to start sculpting more new firstborn marines so they have a new model to release with each new edition of their codex?

I just don't see any possible upside to this idea. It's like standing in a long line and paying someone so they can kick you in the nuts.

I’ve been suggesting this very same thing ever since the current marine codex dropped.

Having a codex First-born and a codex Primaris would drastically reduce bloat in their respective books. It could even allow for greater customisation. Have custom first-born only chapter options, primaris only chapter options, and mixed chapter options.

Then once GW finally pull the plug on first-born they can just legend the first-born codex.

Toofast wrote:
No. This causes a whole host of problems without solving any. Do squatmarines and numarines get updates at the same time? How about supplements? Are we going to have 2 supplements for each faction now? DA, SW, BA, BT, DW each get 2 books, on top of the 2 books you now have to buy and carry with you to play codex SM? Do marines now get 4 codexes per edition or do you alternate and every year one of them gets screwed? Does GW have to start sculpting more new firstborn marines so they have a new model to release with each new edition of their codex?

I just don't see any possible upside to this idea. It's like standing in a long line and paying someone so they can kick you in the nuts.

No, the idea behind separating codexes is that units from codex firstborn are different than units from codex primaris. Hence they don't need updates at the same time. With separated codexes, supplements could be axed as well condensing all their material in those two codexes. For example codex primaris wouldn't get deathwing stuff, sanguinary guard, TWC or even generic units such as stormravens and predators since those are firstborn units. And the firstborn range is so wide and relatively new that they could do well without new releases for at least a decade.

Of course the idea of two books instead of the current 7-8 (counting the supplements) messes with GW's plans .

Dysartes wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
That said, I do like how they've basically retconned the cursed founding as being a big batch of Cawl's experiments

Have you got a cite for that, chief? Haven't seen anything about it, but I haven't read all the post-Steroid Boy material, especially novels.

Only kind of. I think it's more of a wink-wink nudge-nudge sort of thing. You've got page 58 of the 8th edition marine codex talking about how "highly-unreliable and apocryphal" sources claim that the Mentors chapter occassionally fielded marines of, "unusual size, strength, and fortitude." And then you've got the Sons of Antaeus (https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Sons_of_Antaeus) who sound an awful lot like a test run of statue-enhancing techniques. It's probably not confirmed anywhere, and I might be reading too much into it. On the other hand, it kind of feels like it would be weird for there to be a massive geneseed augmentation project (the 21st founding) and for Cawl to not be tied to it in any way. I mean, I guess it's a big galaxy, but...

EDIT: To clarify, I know the Mentors aren't part of the 21st founding. They are, however, said to sometimes be used to "test drive" the experimental imperial tech. So field testing some primaris as part of their ranks seems on-brand for them.

Toofast wrote:
No. This causes a whole host of problems without solving any. Do squatmarines and numarines get updates at the same time? How about supplements? Are we going to have 2 supplements for each faction now? DA, SW, BA, BT, DW each get 2 books, on top of the 2 books you now have to buy and carry with you to play codex SM? Do marines now get 4 codexes per edition or do you alternate and every year one of them gets screwed? Does GW have to start sculpting more new firstborn marines so they have a new model to release with each new edition of their codex?

I just don't see any possible upside to this idea. It's like standing in a long line and paying someone so they can kick you in the nuts.

I would strongly suspect that the oldmarines wouldn't get many if any updates. It would also help move players away from the old army to the new (naff) one. They would have an easier time balancing it as well, with tiny marines relegated to second tier status (with a host of other armies we should add). To be clear the upsides are for GW. For players a massive unwieldy codex ensures your old models stay relevant.

Truemarines haven't needed any additions since about 4th, and even that's a stretch. As long as they recieve reasonable point updates and basic army maintenence I'm happy. There's zero chance I "update" to Primaris garbage. Tactical squads in Rhinos 4 lyfe.

Word.

I'd hate to see oldmarines squatted. Imo the only thing the Primaris Marines have going for them are their proportion. But it's hard to ignore the writing on the wall. So I think the old school should get a single book dedicated to them, that includes all chapters (no supplements needed). The book could be filled with images from past marine codexes, cover art, studio shots, golden demon winners, concept art, "the making of" the models or lore, and at the end you have the legends rules.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Truemarines haven't needed any additions since about 4th, and even that's a stretch. As long as they recieve reasonable point updates and basic army maintenence I'm happy. There's zero chance I "update" to Primaris garbage. Tactical squads in Rhinos 4 lyfe.

LOL Primaris garbage? Intercessors look SOOOO much better, especially when compared to models for other armies. Manlet Marines need to go the way of the dodo

 Jimbobbyish wrote:
I'd hate to see oldmarines squatted. Imo the only thing the Primaris Marines have going for them are their proportion.

I enjoy playing all Primaris with their slightly askew space marine experience. There's something to be said about playing space marines without a single MEQ in the army list, going all T5, Sv 3+, W3. I also like how Primaris space marines are a bit of a conundrum. They are easier to play generally having the same loadout, but also harder to play as they generally have more specific stratagems. More strategic rigid not having special/heavy/many Sgt weapons, but also can be more tactically flexible as they more basic attacks. Which I have caught out more than a few melee enemy units, so long as they didn't have a Strike First ability just through weight of attacks (it helps that I have a chapter tactic that yields more hits).

However, as space marines, Primaris are still a straight forward to play. Just on a slightly different parallel line to Firstborn. That parallel line actually feels slightly further away with Primars than it does with SM to CSM. But not as far as Grey Knights or Death Watch. Which is where I like to be, familiar enough that I can go weeks/months without playing them, but different enough that I don't feel like I am playing the same faction just with different sub-faction rules and a couple of unique units.

That said, I don't want Firstborn marines to go away. I honestly enjoy playing marine (SM,CSM, DG, GK, etc.) vs. marine more than anything else. And with 40k's 9th ed rules getting pretty fat and lethal, there is something I really pleased about Codex: Space Marin vs. Codex: Space Marine games. Even my horrible CSM army lists can make it to Turn 5 or occasionally the end of the game. They still lose most of the time, but they can go the distance vs. C:SM armies. I can't say that about Tyranids or even AdMech or a bevy of other factions. SM vs. SM more often than not, feel like the right level of lethality...or at least closer than almost any other faction.

Most of my space marine opponents go with a composite of Firstborn and Primaris. Which means our armies are never exactly the same. I like that too, and I don't want it to go away. There are some very distinct things an all Firstborn, a composite and an all Primaris army is going to try to accomplish even before considering chapter rules. So while the marine player base isn't likely to shrink anytime soon, at the least the games versus them isn't too cookie cutter. In a better world, that would work for all factions, but I live in this one. So I try to silver lining where I can.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Truemarines haven't needed any additions since about 4th, and even that's a stretch. As long as they recieve reasonable point updates and basic army maintenence I'm happy. There's zero chance I "update" to Primaris garbage. Tactical squads in Rhinos 4 lyfe.

LOL Primaris garbage? Intercessors look SOOOO much better, especially when compared to models for other armies. Manlet Marines need to go the way of the dodo

A rescale (more precisely: another rescale) could have happened without doubling the number of datasheets and weapons in the codex, let alone without creating redundant units (and, bizarrely, redundant units for the redundant units) that are less tactically flexible.

I do like the way primaris look. But that could have been achieved without any of the mess*, and gravis armor could have been introduced rather than the goofy centurions or the baby carrier not-a-dread.
And none of the overgunned floating brick-tanks, that still somehow manage to continue to be bad.

*like, I don't know, rescaled Mark VI marines...
I'd love to know the timelines and planning stages of the Primaris and new Heresy projects. Was there an emphasis on one over the other, a scramble back to older designs because of backlash, or just a casual shrug in a management meeting and the 'Why not both?' meme.

----
I still think the way forward for loyalists (in 40k) is just to quietly consolidate everything and just have the armor and primaris status not matter.
Any bolter is a bolter, any pistol is a bolt pistol and so forth.
Pistol and CCW: assault marine. Do some rescaled (and more detailed) jump packs as an option.
Tacticals have their special/heavy weapon options, Infiltrators don't, but have deployment and ignore penalty rules. (just glom all the Primaris I-names on foot and reivers together)
Devastators can take a pile of plasma guns if they want.
Gravis can be terminator variants? Something.

Work out a few other details for some of the more random units, but basically call it a day.

Voss wrote:

I still think the way forward for loyalists (in 40k) is just to quietly consolidate everything and just have the armor and primaris status not matter.
Any bolter is a bolter, any pistol is a bolt pistol and so forth.
Pistol and CCW: assault marine. Do some rescaled (and more detailed) jump packs as an option.
Tacticals have their special/heavy weapon options, Infiltrators don't, but have deployment and ignore penalty rules. (just glom all the Primaris I-names on foot and reivers together)
Devastators can take a pile of plasma guns if they want.
Gravis can be terminator variants? Something.

Work out a few other details for some of the more random units, but basically call it a day.

I'd agree, that might actually get me to play loyalist marines, maybe Flesh Eaters or something.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Truemarines haven't needed any additions since about 4th, and even that's a stretch. As long as they recieve reasonable point updates and basic army maintenence I'm happy. There's zero chance I "update" to Primaris garbage. Tactical squads in Rhinos 4 lyfe.

LOL Primaris garbage? Intercessors look SOOOO much better, especially when compared to models for other armies. Manlet Marines need to go the way of the dodo

I understand why people like the way Intercessors look, but I'd rather collect an army of RTB01s than weird oversized marines. Oh wait, I did!

And Primaris units are just stupid, suffering from pure product design mentality and catering to adolescent size fetishes of my-dad-is-bigger-than-your-dad.

This Poll hides the true question : since Primaris are here to stay, can GW nuke the "firstborn" range please ?

 Insectum7 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Truemarines haven't needed any additions since about 4th, and even that's a stretch. As long as they recieve reasonable point updates and basic army maintenence I'm happy. There's zero chance I "update" to Primaris garbage. Tactical squads in Rhinos 4 lyfe.

LOL Primaris garbage? Intercessors look SOOOO much better, especially when compared to models for other armies. Manlet Marines need to go the way of the dodo

I understand why people like the way Intercessors look, but I'd rather collect an army of RTB01s than weird oversized marines. Oh wait, I did!

And Primaris units are just stupid, suffering from pure product design mentality and catering to adolescent size fetishes of my-dad-is-bigger-than-your-dad.

You mean the fantasy where the Marine models are reasonably larger than the humans, seeing as they're genetically modified and all that?

Seeing as truescale has been a thing before, don't think that was an adolescent fantasy.

Not sure if that's what Insectum7 meant, but I do really like the scale of primaris compared to other models. They're big enough next to a normal human model to convey their inhuman size. As opposed to my firstborn who all basically look like scrawny guardsmen stuffed into guardsman-sized armor.

The small marine size was never a huge issue for me, but it's honestly kind of nice to have. I also kind of like that their units come in smaller sizes. Lots of 3-man units. It reinforces that "elite" feeling.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Truemarines haven't needed any additions since about 4th, and even that's a stretch. As long as they recieve reasonable point updates and basic army maintenence I'm happy. There's zero chance I "update" to Primaris garbage. Tactical squads in Rhinos 4 lyfe.

LOL Primaris garbage? Intercessors look SOOOO much better, especially when compared to models for other armies. Manlet Marines need to go the way of the dodo

I too think that primaris look really silly. Flying tanks and bulky marines look awful IMHO. I think I only like the Judiciar from the primaris range.

And former standalone chapters like DA, BA or SW are just regular SM armies now. No primaris dedicated dreads, sang. guard, raven/death wing, wulfen, twc, etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Truemarines haven't needed any additions since about 4th, and even that's a stretch. As long as they recieve reasonable point updates and basic army maintenence I'm happy. There's zero chance I "update" to Primaris garbage. Tactical squads in Rhinos 4 lyfe.

Yeah, and firstborn range of models is still massive. Lots of factions didn't get any new release for a decade or more, firstborn can definitely manage without a new release for 15-20 years. Sooner or later primaris will become "old" and GW will launch a new line of models for marines. And I wouldn't bet against a firstborn revamp.

 Blackie wrote:

Yeah, and firstborn range of models is still massive. Lots of factions didn't get any new release for a decade or more, firstborn can definitely manage without a new release for 15-20 years. Sooner or later primaris will become "old" and GW will launch a new line of models for marines. And I wouldn't bet against a firstborn revamp.

Sooner, I think.
Sure, its 'officially' under the Heresy banner, but the revamp of older marines is happening this summer.

Eventually everything in the giant box set will get its own box, and be sold like this one, with multiple brand logos:
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120101170_Mark3Marines08.jpg

And in theory, more stuff should follow in plastic. A lot will be bought by 40k players, same as Calth and Prospero and the individual boxes that followed.

 Insectum7 wrote:
catering to adolescent size fetishes of my-dad-is-bigger-than-your-dad.

I thought it was catering to people who didn't like the awful proportions of squat marines being the same size as guardsmen. The people who don't like them are the ones who treat fluff as if it were actual history books rather than background material about a make-believe universe 40k years in the future.

Toofast wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
catering to adolescent size fetishes of my-dad-is-bigger-than-your-dad.

I thought it was catering to people who didn't like the awful proportions of squat marines being the same size as guardsmen. The people who don't like them are the ones who treat fluff as if it were actual history books rather than background material about a make-believe universe 40k years in the future.

Hence my neckbeard comment about some of the older players. Hell, one of the ones that blocked me because of that said in another thread one of the balance problems was using named characters without permission. LOL, like how out of touch can you be?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
catering to adolescent size fetishes of my-dad-is-bigger-than-your-dad.

I thought it was catering to people who didn't like the awful proportions of squat marines being the same size as guardsmen. The people who don't like them are the ones who treat fluff as if it were actual history books rather than background material about a make-believe universe 40k years in the future.

Hence my neckbeard comment about some of the older players. Hell, one of the ones that blocked me because of that said in another thread one of the balance problems was using named characters without permission. LOL, like how out of touch can you be?

I read that and thought I had accidentally time traveled to 1998 because that's the last time I heard someone seriously use that argument. You can tell people who have never played a tournament or haven't done so in 20 years because they complain about things like named chars, flyers and superheavies when vertus praetors, voidweavers and crisis suits are dominating the meta and would stomp all over a list relying on named chars/flyers/SHs...

Wyldhunt wrote:

See, the cursed founding lore is kind of what makes me feel Cawl is a bit cringe. Before Cawl and the primaris were introduced, you had a few bits of lore discussing attempts to modify the recipe for making marines. You had the cursed founding which was full of concerning mutations and seemingly unusual amounts of bad luck. And then you had Fabius whose creations were always sort of framed as a horrifying perversion of the "proper" process. The theme behind both of these seemed to be that messing with the marine making process was a big no-no, an abomination against the Emperor that either produced monsters or misfortune.

But then Cawl was introduced and just kind of went, "Naaaah. Making better marines is fine actually. In fact, I got rid of some of those pesky gene flaws while I was at it!"

That said, I do like how they've basically retconned the cursed founding as being a big batch of Cawl's experiments, but it still felt like their out-of-nowhere tech priest character was...
* Making Fabius look less competent.
* Uprooting the previously mentioned themes of messing with marine creation being a Bad Idea.
* Doing the above because GW had dragged their feet on truescale marines so long that they felt the need to explain a size and armor change in-universe.

Yeah, I don't really think the size change needed an explanation. That being said, the basic concept of Primaris is fine. It makes sense that after ten millennia of Ad Mech trying to improve marines, some of that stuff actually ends up working. Cawl of course is cringe. There really didn't need to be some immortal super techpriest mastermind. But I ignore that as propaganda. Cawl is just the current head of the Belissarian Conclave, an organisation in charge of marine development. He's not a ten millennia old super genius. Too bad it is harder to pretend something like that with Guilliman...


But no, of course the marine codex shouldn't be split. Quite the opposite, the distinction between primaris and non-primaris should be de-emphasised. In the fluff, sooner or later practically everyone will be primaris anyway, but some might still use the older marks of armour. Combine the datasheets when possible, and at absolute minimum, get rid of the utterly idiotic transport limitations!

Any form of improving as an idea or action, in the Imperium makes litterally zero sense. It is a culture that worships the past. Old things are not just though and believed to be better, but they actually are better. It is like writing peaceful orks, non animalistic tyranids or eldar carrying about any other race what so ever in to the w40k lore. At best one has to assume that the progress implementation is fake or some elaborate trick. But GW doesn't write their lore like that. When they write that the Indomitus crusade was 200years, then it took 200 years. When they change it later to something like 13 years, it is 13. With all the stupid consequances coming with it.
There is also problems with how acceptance of the procedure worked. Marines have started civil wars over smaller things or were wiped out for smaller diviations from the norm. I can imagine some chapters taking primaris in. some wouldn't care, IH for example don't care if the flesh is primaris or classic, both are weak and to be replaced with machine parts. But creating DA primaris, Having access to SW gene seed that would work with non fenrisian aspirants etc. Those thing were just going against decades of lore.

As a bonus there is the fact that the whole lore changes exists only to replace the marine line. Lore wise Cawl had 10 milenia to recreate legions of primaris, he somehow has hidden fleets to carry them, had secret ammo and gear stockpiles , which no one ever found and lived. But he could not make GK primaris? and by the way I don't want GK primaris. over 10k milenia he couldn't create 1000 librarian marines? I mean he could created them for the black shields and the other primaris. Ah wait GW didn't have and didn't want to invest time and money in to a GK primaris line, so the lore got adjusted to fit it.

Just from a lore perspective, this actually would be a fun way of turning humanity against the Emperor, if he went all "Thunderwarriors be G0nE!" on the Old Marines, and decried them to be destroyed. Then the Chapters basically rebel, except for Ultras, GK, and DeathWatch. And Bobby has a real reckoning, where after killing Cato S in a fight, he realizes the Emperor is wrong, and begins a Rebellion.

Toofast wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
catering to adolescent size fetishes of my-dad-is-bigger-than-your-dad.

I thought it was catering to people who didn't like the awful proportions of squat marines being the same size as guardsmen. The people who don't like them are the ones who treat fluff as if it were actual history books rather than background material about a make-believe universe 40k years in the future.

Hence my neckbeard comment about some of the older players. Hell, one of the ones that blocked me because of that said in another thread one of the balance problems was using named characters without permission. LOL, like how out of touch can you be?

I read that and thought I had accidentally time traveled to 1998 because that's the last time I heard someone seriously use that argument. You can tell people who have never played a tournament or haven't done so in 20 years because they complain about things like named chars, flyers and superheavies when vertus praetors, voidweavers and crisis suits are dominating the meta and would stomp all over a list relying on named chars/flyers/SHs...

I have explained that my dislike of named characters in regular games has nothing to do with your meta chasing fetish, or so called balance, or winning builds or whatever… but carry on.

Karol gets it. Fezzik, love it. Except it wouldn’t be da emperor, it would be some chaos infested heretical admin mouthpiece, and his light would thereafter shine most bright for his forever loyal true marines in their continued struggle against heresy, including Cawl and his manipulations. Exalted, both.

 jeff white wrote:

Toofast wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
catering to adolescent size fetishes of my-dad-is-bigger-than-your-dad.

I thought it was catering to people who didn't like the awful proportions of squat marines being the same size as guardsmen. The people who don't like them are the ones who treat fluff as if it were actual history books rather than background material about a make-believe universe 40k years in the future.

Hence my neckbeard comment about some of the older players. Hell, one of the ones that blocked me because of that said in another thread one of the balance problems was using named characters without permission. LOL, like how out of touch can you be?

I read that and thought I had accidentally time traveled to 1998 because that's the last time I heard someone seriously use that argument. You can tell people who have never played a tournament or haven't done so in 20 years because they complain about things like named chars, flyers and superheavies when vertus praetors, voidweavers and crisis suits are dominating the meta and would stomp all over a list relying on named chars/flyers/SHs...

I have explained that my dislike of named characters in regular games has nothing to do with your meta chasing fetish, or so called balance, or winning builds or whatever… but carry on.

Incorrect because you said, and I quote, in the "Power Up ir Power Down" thread:

"Imho, for me to be interested in learning a new edition of 40k, and anything more about this one including new codices yada, the game needs to return to roots. Lower models counts that are generally less Uber powerful E.g. no named characters unless by prior arrangement for some special scenario"

And then you proceeded to whine about Mortarion in the next post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just from a lore perspective, this actually would be a fun way of turning humanity against the Emperor, if he went all "Thunderwarriors be G0nE!" on the Old Marines, and decried them to be destroyed. Then the Chapters basically rebel, except for Ultras, GK, and DeathWatch. And Bobby has a real reckoning, where after killing Cato S in a fight, he realizes the Emperor is wrong, and begins a Rebellion.

And comes the bad Tumblr fanfiction

Plague, reading comprehension is poor, and attitude seems to be out to get others instead of understanding, renders any engagement toxic, poisonous, and hence why you are blocked. I tried, again, to engage. But I honestly give up. You do you. No trouble here, just do not want that slimey sick feeling so I choose to ignore you.

 Blackie wrote:

Yeah, and firstborn range of models is still massive. Lots of factions didn't get any new release for a decade or more, firstborn can definitely manage without a new release for 15-20 years. Sooner or later primaris will become "old" and GW will launch a new line of models for marines. And I wouldn't bet against a firstborn revamp.

I imagine we're going to lose most, if not all current first-born boxes for 40k. Many will probably come back as true scale HH marines that also have 40k rules. Which would be a no brainer to cross-sell.

So a tactical squad say in 5 years time probably won't be assembled from the current tactical squad kit, but some new tactical squad with Mk 4 - 6 power armour originally released for HH but also usable for 40k.

 jeff white wrote:
Plague, reading comprehension is poor, and attitude seems to be out to get others instead of understanding, renders any engagement toxic, poisonous, and hence why you are blocked. I tried, again, to engage. But I honestly give up. You do you. No trouble here, just do not want that slimey sick feeling so I choose to ignore you.

My comprehension is fine. You said "lower model counts that are generally less Uber powerful EG NO NAMED CHARACTERS.
That literally says the named characters are too powerful LOL