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The design studio gave all the Ork gunz extra shots to seemingly balance back to hitting on 5's For example that's why the Rokkit Kannon went from 2D3 to 3D3 and Dakka weaponry increased in shots.

However, I think they totally failed to factor in that certain factions can essentially put -1 to hit onto the entire army meaning against those factions orks can't hit a cows behind with a banjo. If you are the Ork shooty build and you run into Light Saedath you are essentially screwed.

A far more elegant solution from the get go would have been to keep the number of shots roughly as they were and orks always hit on a 5+ (bit like the old Tomb kings rule)

When the ork codex dropped I said it was bad and after GW removed the broken spam buggy list (which no Ork play either wanted or asked for)
Then we got hit with the side effects of the plane restrictions, and more importantly the inability to take multiple clans (which has always been in the lore of Orks) the ork codex is now just a shell of its former self.

Between that and the heavy handed nerfs to things like Beastbosses on Squigosaur with a frankly ridiculous 30 point increase, to the point barely anybody takes them anymore.
I mean compare a 175 point beastboss on Squigosaur to something like Trajan? or a 90 point Farseer. It's a nonsense..

The internal balance of the Ork codex is still a massive problem, half the unit entries are irrelevant. You don't see that as much in the newer codexes.

IMO Orks are now one of the weakest codexes and this will be born out in the coming months when the stats start to equalise.

They need to fix orks but I don't think anybody at the design studio plays them to a competitive level.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Orks shoot to make noise, not to kill. So, who cares?
Orks are a close combat army, they should win games assaulting, not shooting

I gotta be honest, I'm really sick of this nonsensical line that keeps appearing. Orkz have MORE units that focus either exclusively or primarily on shooting than they do CC options. Orkz in CC right now are...crap. Compare a Meganob to any similar unit from other armies, the meganob loses. Our basic CC infantry are boyz who are so bad that they rarely if ever appear in lists anymore. Our once fearsome Dreadmobz or DeffDreadz, Killakanz and Nautz are currently collecting dust. The only highlight in the ork codex right now are Kommandos who are decent in CC but who just took a 20% nerf.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Question: Is it still the case that special ork guns (thinking lootas, flashgitz, etc.) are pretty cheap for their profiles? I remember being able to look at the cost of a loota vs a dark reaper and sort of see how GW landed on their respective prices with the lootas losing out due to lack of durability and buff support more than baked-in killing power. Wondering if the new 'dex (and in the increased Toughness stat) has further skewed the effectiveness of ork dakka infantry.

Still getting my feet wet with the new eldar book. Are harlequins really all that durable now? I see that they still have a lot of the same durability tricks they did before, but they're also still a T3 army with a (usually) 4+ save. (It just happens to be a 4+ save that doesn't care about AP or light cover.)

Sadly no, GW in the last "balance" patch gave lootas -2ppm which was a very nice little pat on the head for a unit that is literally and I am not exaggerating, THE WORST Auto-cannon unit in the game that has a 9th edition codex. 15ppm for what amounts to an auto-cannon that hits on 5s isn't bad, except that you have to put them in a trukk unless you want them to die turn 1, and even if they do live past turn 1 they won't do much especially with all the "Ignore -1AP" and "-1Dmg" abilities running around right now. Not to even touch on the fact that GW hit them with a 15pt tax for every 4 lootas in the form of the Spanner who is armed cheaply with a big shoota and if equipped with a KMB has more Oomph but is 50% as likely to kill himself as the enemy.

GW gave orkz bad weapon stats for an army that hits on 5s and then exacerbated the problem with their incredibly dumb "Dakka" weapon rule and with giving orkz basically 0 Durability and stratagem support.

Dudeface wrote:
I'm reading from this that Harlequins need fixing, not that ork shooting is suddenly a bust. Most armies have some -1 to hit, internally or externally, including the battlefield. Its when it's on most of the army who also pack decent invulns you're seeing the issue.

Edit: not to say that ork gunlines are fine and a competitive option, I'm just pointing out you're using the most durable, unfriendly and unbalanced units to fire into to make a point.

And Nidz who start the game with basically the entire army at -1 to hit, and custodes who do the same thing etc etc etc. -1 to hit is so prevalent that its absurd that GW wouldn't have baked a rule into the ork codex that we always hit on 5s.

Pickled_egg wrote:
The design studio gave all the Ork gunz extra shots to seemingly balance back to hitting on 5's For example that's why the Rokkit Kannon went from 2D3 to 3D3 and Dakka weaponry increased in shots.

However, I think they totally failed to factor in that certain factions can essentially put -1 to hit onto the entire army meaning against those factions orks can't hit a cows behind with a banjo. If you are the Ork shooty build and you run into Light Saedath you are essentially screwed.

But here is the problem, the Rokkit Kannon went up 1D3 shots or 2 on average. That works out to an average of 0.66 extra hits a turn, against a T7 target thats 0.44 wounds and against a 3+ that works out to 0.88 extra dmg a turn. compare that to Melta weapons that Imperials got, or the D3+3 weapons a lot of factions got, yeah we hit 0.66 more with that weapon, but the dmg only went up a fraction compared to everyone else who went up markedly, and all of that is even before we factor in the -1 to hit which is everywhere now.

Dakka weapons....yeah no, they all suck. The only Dakka weapons I can think of who benefited from that rule are the Supa Shootas on the Dakkajet and the Dakkagunz on the Warbikes. And even then the -1 to hit is just absolutely absurd on them. A Unit of 5 Warbikers, in Dakka range (9') get 50 shots, usually thats 16.6 hits, against -1 to hit it becomes 8.3. Yep, 125pts of Warbikers average 8 hits at S5 no AP 1dmg a turn. Against a Marine profile that works out to 1.85dmg, in other words, they dont even kill a Marine on average with the -1 to hit. Not exactly great that a unit only good at shooting is not even killing a 20pt Marine a turn.

Again

IN THE LORE orks are better at killing with melee than guns (which are used for their noise).

9th has the codexes follow the lore a lot more than 8th

the problem isnt that ork shooting isnt good enough, its that their melee isnt good enough

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Again

IN THE LORE orks are better at killing with melee than guns (which are used for their noise).

9th has the codexes follow the lore a lot more than 8th

the problem isnt that ork shooting isnt good enough, its that their melee isnt good enough

"Better at melee than shooting" doesn't mean "Useless at shooting".

It's fine if a standard Ork list is more melee than shooting, but shooting should 100% be an option.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Again

IN THE LORE orks are better at killing with melee than guns (which are used for their noise).

9th has the codexes follow the lore a lot more than 8th

the problem isnt that ork shooting isnt good enough, its that their melee isnt good enough

"Better at melee than shooting" doesn't mean "Useless at shooting".

It's fine if a standard Ork list is more melee than shooting, but shooting should 100% be an option.

Obviously, i'm just explaining the current state (and the argument that people misinterpret)

So how do you compensate for an army that gets -1 to hit as a subfaction ability? It’s not very enjoyable to have your rules just get negated by another army. I’m not denying something needs to change for the orks but I’d rather see it in a way that doesn’t take away from other armies.

Orks just need to go back to being BS 4+ base.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Again

IN THE LORE orks are better at killing with melee than guns (which are used for their noise).

9th has the codexes follow the lore a lot more than 8th

the problem isnt that ork shooting isnt good enough, its that their melee isnt good enough

It’s the lore that orks don’t hit as often with their guns as their melee, but they’re just as effective with it. Bolter shells aren’t the size of red bull cans, shoota bullets are, and they come out way faster. Also, ork melee is done by boyz and vanguards of specialists, that’s it really. The horde is backed up by massed shooting and artillery vehicles, has been since the beginning.

It's like people don't know that "Dakka" is an Ork term, and a call for "More Dakka" is a call for more shooting. . .

And Shoota Boyz were downright dangerous to Marines in previous editions.

blaktoof wrote:
Orks just need to go back to being BS 4+ base.

This is honestly true. Boyz should be 4+/4+.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Again

IN THE LORE orks are better at killing with melee than guns (which are used for their noise).

9th has the codexes follow the lore a lot more than 8th

the problem isnt that ork shooting isnt good enough, its that their melee isnt good enough

The issue is that people like you keep repeating this nonsense which has absolutely no support in the actual lore. What you are citing is meme headcannon and 1d4chan lore, or you are one of those people who doesn't understand that bad at aiming doesn't mean the same as bad at shooting.

The actual lore is full of examples where orks reduce enemy fleets, cities, fortifications and entire armies to rubble without fighting hand to hand and shows them quite capable to outdo the imperial guard, tau and especially marines in that regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
So how do you compensate for an army that gets -1 to hit as a subfaction ability? It’s not very enjoyable to have your rules just get negated by another army. I’m not denying something needs to change for the orks but I’d rather see it in a way that doesn’t take away from other armies.

How about your army loses 50% of its shooting as compensation? That isn't taking anything away from you is it?

-1 to hit subfaction traits are a thing which shouldn't exist in a game where an entire army hits on 5+.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm reading from this that Harlequins need fixing, not that ork shooting is suddenly a bust. Most armies have some -1 to hit, internally or externally, including the battlefield. Its when it's on most of the army who also pack decent invulns you're seeing the issue.

Edit: not to say that ork gunlines are fine and a competitive option, I'm just pointing out you're using the most durable, unfriendly and unbalanced units to fire into to make a point.

And Nidz who start the game with basically the entire army at -1 to hit, and custodes who do the same thing etc etc etc. -1 to hit is so prevalent that its absurd that GW wouldn't have baked a rule into the ork codex that we always hit on 5s.

OK, but why? As Jidmah says orks aren't very accurate when shooting, why would they mysteriously be superb yet simultaneously crap marksmen?

Why just orks? There will be other units in the game that hit on 5's.

If you give orks a 4+ are you going to up everyone else's to maintain parity or is the ork stance of more bullets over accuracy no longer part of their fluff?

Stop trying to make orks better and tackle root problem that impacts all armies.

Hecaton wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Orks just need to go back to being BS 4+ base.

This is honestly true. Boyz should be 4+/4+.

Boyz are one of the few ork units that don't need better shooting. Assuming your 4+/4+ means they get WS4+ and BS4+ that would be a significant nerf rather than a buff. Fighting as "well" as tau or guard? Worse than necrons? Lol. Orks fighting is already a joke due to lack of S and AP in combat.

No, leave the WS as it is. In fact I think some untis should even have better WS. But BS could easily be BS4+ minimum, armywide I mean.

 Blackie wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Orks just need to go back to being BS 4+ base.

This is honestly true. Boyz should be 4+/4+.

Boyz are one of the few ork units that don't need better shooting. Assuming your 4+/4+ means they get WS4+ and BS4+ that would be a significant nerf rather than a buff. Fighting as "well" as tau or guard? Worse than necrons? Lol. Orks fighting is already a joke due to lack of S and AP in combat.

No, leave the WS as it is. In fact I think some untis should even have better WS. But BS could easily be BS4+ minimum, armywide I mean.

So the fluff and historically least accurate army becomes 4+, next up in guard & tau going up to 3+, then marines and eldar base 2+, sound good?

Dudeface wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Orks just need to go back to being BS 4+ base.

This is honestly true. Boyz should be 4+/4+.

Boyz are one of the few ork units that don't need better shooting. Assuming your 4+/4+ means they get WS4+ and BS4+ that would be a significant nerf rather than a buff. Fighting as "well" as tau or guard? Worse than necrons? Lol. Orks fighting is already a joke due to lack of S and AP in combat.

No, leave the WS as it is. In fact I think some untis should even have better WS. But BS could easily be BS4+ minimum, armywide I mean.

So the fluff and historically least accurate army becomes 4+, next up in guard & tau going up to 3+, then marines and eldar base 2+, sound good?

It's not like arbitrarily picking one of the four numbers 2,3,4 and 5 is an accurate description of the fluff to begin with.

The number on the datasheet don't have to match the fluff, the unit on the table has to.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Orks just need to go back to being BS 4+ base.

This is honestly true. Boyz should be 4+/4+.

Boyz are one of the few ork units that don't need better shooting. Assuming your 4+/4+ means they get WS4+ and BS4+ that would be a significant nerf rather than a buff. Fighting as "well" as tau or guard? Worse than necrons? Lol. Orks fighting is already a joke due to lack of S and AP in combat.

No, leave the WS as it is. In fact I think some untis should even have better WS. But BS could easily be BS4+ minimum, armywide I mean.

So the fluff and historically least accurate army becomes 4+, next up in guard & tau going up to 3+, then marines and eldar base 2+, sound good?

It's not like arbitrarily picking one of the four numbers 2,3,4 and 5 is an accurate description of the fluff to begin with.

The number on the datasheet don't have to match the fluff, the unit on the table has to.

The fluff isn't that Orks hit 50% of the time, they're renown for being inaccurate, so if the other armies are more accurate you need to increase the other armies chance to hit surely? Likewise more shots would actually be a better representation for orks at this point, now that DakkaDakkaDakka has been removed more shots wouldn't result in stupidly long shooting phases.

Potential fixes for more shots:
Dakka weapons get more shots/range (simple)
Dakka weapons get max shots regardless of range if the user doesn't move
Dakka weapons get max shots as long as the user moves at least half their movement and ends up closer to the target unit
Give units ability to advance and fire dakka weapons

All of those would alleviate the pain somewhat and give currently underperforming units a bit of a shot in the arm

@dudeface.
They GAVE orks more shots, they just did so in a very full stupid way for some weapons.
In the same vein that also lead to issues thanks to freebota and planes and certain buggies, which got nerfed to hell for all orks.
Same with rockits which were always assault weapons now are heavy.

Further Orks HAD BF4+ in the past standardised so no you have not really an historic argument either.

Dudeface wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Orks just need to go back to being BS 4+ base.

This is honestly true. Boyz should be 4+/4+.

Boyz are one of the few ork units that don't need better shooting. Assuming your 4+/4+ means they get WS4+ and BS4+ that would be a significant nerf rather than a buff. Fighting as "well" as tau or guard? Worse than necrons? Lol. Orks fighting is already a joke due to lack of S and AP in combat.

No, leave the WS as it is. In fact I think some untis should even have better WS. But BS could easily be BS4+ minimum, armywide I mean.

So the fluff and historically least accurate army becomes 4+, next up in guard & tau going up to 3+, then marines and eldar base 2+, sound good?

No, they stay as they are. Tau, guard, eldar, marines, etc... have plenty of cheap/free tools to improve their firepower significantly. Orks don't. Only a single specific klan maybe, but at that point the Freeboota trait can be re-written from scratch.

And the sad part is that multiple armies already fire way more shots than orks. Not to mention combat, they're supposed to be good fighters at least and yet they aren't.

Not Online!!! wrote:@dudeface.
They GAVE orks more shots, they just did so in a very full stupid way for some weapons.
In the same vein that also lead to issues thanks to freebota and planes and certain buggies, which got nerfed to hell for all orks.
Same with rockits which were always assault weapons now are heavy.

Further Orks HAD BF4+ in the past standardised so no you have not really an historic argument either.

See my reply above I edited in some ways around it, but given they've been hitting on 5's base for 6 editions now, I think the weight of evidence is more on that side.

Blackie wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Orks just need to go back to being BS 4+ base.

This is honestly true. Boyz should be 4+/4+.

Boyz are one of the few ork units that don't need better shooting. Assuming your 4+/4+ means they get WS4+ and BS4+ that would be a significant nerf rather than a buff. Fighting as "well" as tau or guard? Worse than necrons? Lol. Orks fighting is already a joke due to lack of S and AP in combat.

No, leave the WS as it is. In fact I think some untis should even have better WS. But BS could easily be BS4+ minimum, armywide I mean.

So the fluff and historically least accurate army becomes 4+, next up in guard & tau going up to 3+, then marines and eldar base 2+, sound good?

No, they stay as they are. Tau, guard, eldar, marines, etc... have plenty of cheap/free tools to improve their firepower significantly. Orks don't. Only a single specific klan maybe, but at that point the Freeboota trait can be re-written from scratch.

And the sad part is that multiple armies already fire way more shots than orks. Not to mention combat, they're supposed to be good fighters at least and yet they aren't.

No thanks, an army is allowed to be bad/worse at something, that's the point of the identity and character of the army. Orks have always been worse at laying down accurate firepower, they're renown for getting excited and just firing loosely at their opponent while running at them. Why would that be the same accuracy in game as a trained gunline?

Native BS4+ with no to little tools to enhance it IS being bad/worse than all the other BS4+. And not by a small margin.

Tau with all their shenanigans aren't really BS4+. Neither is guard with all their double shooting, etc...

The accuracy of an army is just an abstraction. It doesn't matter if it's achieve by giving them countless shots or preventing them to have access to tools to improve their firepower. Only thing it matters is the average results, not how they are achieved. And number of shots is already inferior to some armies, not to mention that there's a limit on the amount of dice rolling that a human being can bear.

A suggestion I had around when the original Dakka Dakka Dakka rule was rumoured was to make most Ork units hit on a 5+, but with the DDD rule being "This unit can ignore hit penalties when shooting."

That was meant to represent the sheer storm of firepower being laid down-there's so much that you can't properly dodge it or use your fancy hologram technology or whatever. (A similar or the same rule could be used for Blast weapons.)

Grots would not get that rule-they don't get the good gear. But even BS 4+ Meks would, because they're still good ol' proppa Orks.

Also, another poster mentioned that other units hit on a 5+, not just Ork units... To which I say, how many units that hit on a BS 5+ baseline are meant to do damage with? I can't think of any, excepting Ork units.

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:@dudeface.
They GAVE orks more shots, they just did so in a very full stupid way for some weapons.
In the same vein that also lead to issues thanks to freebota and planes and certain buggies, which got nerfed to hell for all orks.
Same with rockits which were always assault weapons now are heavy.

Further Orks HAD BF4+ in the past standardised so no you have not really an historic argument either.

See my reply above I edited in some ways around it, but given they've been hitting on 5's base for 6 editions now, I think the weight of evidence is more on that side.

that is not how a historic argument works. Atleast not for gw, else we would get elysians and R&H / corsairs instead of squats.


And sure you "could" do all of the above, or you could make ork shooting imune to circumstance aka always 5+ to represent the bullet storm and balance weapons accordingly instead of having things like freebota make additional shots gained problematic and by extention triggering what i dubbed the slaaneshdoubleshooting syndrom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:


Also, another poster mentioned that other units hit on a 5+, not just Ork units... To which I say, how many units that hit on a BS 5+ baseline are meant to do damage with? I can't think of any, excepting Ork units.

Standard R&H infantry did in 8th, and it was problematic to say the least.
But that isn't an issue anymore since they ended up in legends and noone runs that list for a multitude of reasons, if said person hasn't already gotten rid of their R&H collection.

 Blackie wrote:
Native BS4+ with no to little tools to enhance it IS being bad/worse than all the other BS4+. And not by a small margin.

Tau with all their shenanigans aren't really BS4+. Neither is guard with all their double shooting, etc...

The accuracy of an army is just an abstraction. It doesn't matter if it's achieve by giving them countless shots or preventing them to have access to tools to improve their firepower. Only thing it matters is the average results, not how they are achieved. And number of shots is already inferior to some armies, not to mention that there's a limit on the amount of dice rolling that a human being can bear.

But again, much like with other armies, this is "everyone else gets good gak and is too overturned, so I want to be too". Maybe guard shouldn't be firing twice, maybe tau shouldn't have easy access for +1 to hit. But I'm sorry, the moment you give more elite stats to a unit to reduce the number of dice rolls, so that you can more easily represent: rolling more dice, then it's gone too far.

BS4 seems like a simple mechanical solution.
Otherwise yes, you are BS5+, but immune to -1 to hit, and a bucket of dice. But that' bucket still isn't seemingly big enough when it comes to Shootas, Lootas and Flash Gitz etc - so lets give them all 5 shots per model.

Its roughly the same as 2 shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s, so seems fair. The fact you'll need to pick up 150 dice with 30 shoota boyz is intentional. Get bigger hands.

Tyel wrote:
BS4 seems like a simple mechanical solution.
Otherwise yes, you are BS5+, but immune to -1 to hit, and a bucket of dice. But that' bucket still isn't seemingly big enough when it comes to Shootas, Lootas and Flash Gitz etc - so lets give them all 5 shots per model.

Its roughly the same as 2 shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s, so seems fair. The fact you'll need to pick up 150 dice with 30 shoota boyz is intentional. Get bigger hands.

Ok, lets unpack you just compared a 9pt boy to the output of an 18 point marine with HQ support in an attempt to make them equal. I actually wouldn't mind 5 shots inside of 9", because it'd be a challenge getting there.

But why increasing the number of shots instead of the BS to accomplish the same result, only slower?

 Blackie wrote:
But why increasing the number of shots instead of the BS to accomplish the same result, only slower?

Because I'd like my fictional game to adhere to fiction somewhat rather than being an utterly disconnected statistic game.

Dudeface wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
But why increasing the number of shots instead of the BS to accomplish the same result, only slower?

Because I'd like my fictional game to adhere to fiction somewhat rather than being an utterly disconnected statistic game.

How many shots does a Bolter fire in a turn?
Shouldn’t it be the same dice, but discard half the hits of you aren’t in Rapid Fire range?
For that matter, how long is a turn, in-game?

The game is ALREADY quite abstracted. This seems an odd hill to die on.

I'd actually be down for more units hitting on 5+. Cultists would be a great example to show they're less trained than Guard and evil Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
BS4 seems like a simple mechanical solution.
Otherwise yes, you are BS5+, but immune to -1 to hit, and a bucket of dice. But that' bucket still isn't seemingly big enough when it comes to Shootas, Lootas and Flash Gitz etc - so lets give them all 5 shots per model.

Its roughly the same as 2 shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s, so seems fair. The fact you'll need to pick up 150 dice with 30 shoota boyz is intentional. Get bigger hands.

Or just that the more specialist units and then Nobs/Bosses can get BS4+.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
But why increasing the number of shots instead of the BS to accomplish the same result, only slower?

Because I'd like my fictional game to adhere to fiction somewhat rather than being an utterly disconnected statistic game.

How many shots does a Bolter fire in a turn?
Shouldn’t it be the same dice, but discard half the hits of you aren’t in Rapid Fire range?
For that matter, how long is a turn, in-game?

The game is ALREADY quite abstracted. This seems an odd hill to die on.

Lets just have every unit hit on 3's all the time in that case? If we're not trying to ground rules interactions based on the fluff (lots of inaccurate fire in this case), then why bother having any variance at all?