Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Scions can't have nice things.

Tyel wrote:
Scions can't have nice things.

Yeah, that's actually messed up. Not sure why they ruled so broadly that Militarum Tempestus can never benefit. Was interested to see some mega taurox prime with punisher spam cheese.

Lasguns can auto-wound Titans, but not Hellguns.

That makes sense.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Lasguns can auto-wound Titans, but not Hellguns.

That makes sense.

Projectile ammunition is feeble compared to the lasgun-light of the God Emperor.

 Blackie wrote:

stratigo wrote:


Lol, literally every competitive player in the game looked at the nerfs and went "These guys are out of the meta". There wasn't a single dissenting voice, everyone agrees they're done.

You: "They still top tier lul!"

They are not even mid tier now.

Typical custodes (or SM) player response. If they can't autowin against at least most of the factions their army sucks. Really, what's better than custodes? Tau, Aeldari, Drukhari, Tyranids. Nothing else.

And I'd really like to know those competitive players, I bet they're the same ones who said orks were going to be OP due their T5 and Ap-1 choppas .

I mean, Jack Harpster said there is only a "blasted crater" where they used to be. He also said they "don't exist. They're gone". It's not just people whining about their army. Wings on Goonhammer thinks it was too much too and he's a Craftworld guy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I for one was super glad we got nerfed. It was that or continue listening to all you theory crafters complain about how hard the competitive scene was taking it from the Golden Horrors. Now? Literally silence about the other elephants in the room.

The numbers spoke for themselves. Custodes winrate was oppressively high, only for GW to masterfully one-up themselves with Harlequins. The reason there's no complaining about specific factions being too strong right now is because we have no data. The changes haven't been used in enough tournaments yet to get a good idea of what they've done to the tournament meta, and the same can be said of Tyranids not being out long enough yet.

I know you love your kneejerk reactions and hyperbole, but blaming others for taking a more measured approach only leaves you looking even more ridiculous.

Custodes win rate was down to 54% FYI. Harlies and Nids were driving them way down. It was actually below Chaos Daemons.

 oni wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Lasguns can auto-wound Titans, but not Hellguns.

That makes sense.

Projectile ammunition is feeble compared to the lasgun-light of the God Emperor.

Psst. Hellguns are just spicy lasguns.

I didn't think GW could somehow make the auto-wound rule dumber, but by golly, they've done it. Someone ought to tell the Schola Progenium that their trained-from-adolescence elite kill squads aren't praying hard enough or whatever the prevailing in-universe justification is.

Audustum wrote:

Custodes win rate was down to 54% FYI. Harlies and Nids were driving them way down. It was actually below Chaos Daemons.

They win % as a total went down because they lost against other hilariously broken gak. Doesn't win their win % against anyone not Tau/Quins was down.

Audustum wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

stratigo wrote:


Lol, literally every competitive player in the game looked at the nerfs and went "These guys are out of the meta". There wasn't a single dissenting voice, everyone agrees they're done.

You: "They still top tier lul!"

They are not even mid tier now.

Typical custodes (or SM) player response. If they can't autowin against at least most of the factions their army sucks. Really, what's better than custodes? Tau, Aeldari, Drukhari, Tyranids. Nothing else.

And I'd really like to know those competitive players, I bet they're the same ones who said orks were going to be OP due their T5 and Ap-1 choppas .

I mean, Jack Harpster said there is only a "blasted crater" where they used to be. He also said they "don't exist. They're gone". It's not just people whining about their army. Wings on Goonhammer thinks it was too much too and he's a Craftworld guy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I for one was super glad we got nerfed. It was that or continue listening to all you theory crafters complain about how hard the competitive scene was taking it from the Golden Horrors. Now? Literally silence about the other elephants in the room.

The numbers spoke for themselves. Custodes winrate was oppressively high, only for GW to masterfully one-up themselves with Harlequins. The reason there's no complaining about specific factions being too strong right now is because we have no data. The changes haven't been used in enough tournaments yet to get a good idea of what they've done to the tournament meta, and the same can be said of Tyranids not being out long enough yet.

I know you love your kneejerk reactions and hyperbole, but blaming others for taking a more measured approach only leaves you looking even more ridiculous.

Custodes win rate was down to 54% FYI. Harlies and Nids were driving them way down. It was actually below Chaos Daemons.

A 54% win rate? I'm actually impressed GW got so close to well balanced.

Tyel wrote:
Scions can't have nice things.

If my maths is right, between HotE and AoC, I'm pretty certain that a Scion will actually get the same results from shooting a Hellgun as a Veteran shooting a Lasgun when the target is a Marine.

So Scions don't get Hammer of the Emperor, but do not penalize non-Scion units from benefiting from it.

Not sure how I feel about that.

Or Hotshot Lasguns. Whatever they're called now.

 catbarf wrote:
I didn't think GW could somehow make the auto-wound rule dumber, but by golly, they've done it. Someone ought to tell the Schola Progenium that their trained-from-adolescence elite kill squads aren't praying hard enough or whatever the prevailing in-universe justification is.

BuT gUaRd NeEd ThIs To Be CoMpEtItIvE iN tHe MeTa!!!1

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
no other faction whines quite like Custodes.

Are there Custodes players in this thread "whining"?

There's Strat, who seems to have gone snooker loopy claiming that they're trash-tier, but who else is crying about the golden boys?

My local FB group has custodes players. They spent day 1 whining about how bad their army is now and day 2 posting pictures of all their new tyranid model purchases.

As a MT player, I am devastated. fething awful. Before the balance dataslate, MT were arguably worse off than regular guard, but now MT might just be the worst faction/subfaction in the game.

Time to dig out those 200+ Vostroyan minis I've been squirreling away for a rainy day and get to work I guess.

Its probably because "Hammer of the Emperor" is set to be the Guard purity bonus. While mono-Tempestus will probably get something else (Harlequins style). But again - to give something and yank it back makes you look kind of stupid. If anyone at GW was worried about Scions ruling tournaments, well, I feel reasonably safe in saying they wouldn't.

FWIW, I don't think it was a worry about Scions "ruling tournaments"...

I think it was them wanting to head off at the pass people building towards something they had no intention of functioning the way people were thinking.

I think Tyel has a bit of the right track in the idea that Tempestus has their own set of traits coming, but I don't think it will necessarily be mono-Tempestus. I'm thinking it will be a Canticles/Doctrina Imperatives styled system--both of these bonuses can exist when the subfactions are in play together but they can't be in play when there's interlopers.

While Harlies and Nids are going to be really strong, I think this is probably now going to be once of the better balanced times in 9th edition that we've had.

I'm really looking forward to hitting some events in full swing next month.

 Blackie wrote:

stratigo wrote:


Lol, literally every competitive player in the game looked at the nerfs and went "These guys are out of the meta". There wasn't a single dissenting voice, everyone agrees they're done.

You: "They still top tier lul!"

They are not even mid tier now.

Typical custodes (or SM) player response. If they can't autowin against at least most of the factions their army sucks. Really, what's better than custodes? Tau, Aeldari, Drukhari, Tyranids. Nothing else.

And I'd really like to know those competitive players, I bet they're the same ones who said orks were going to be OP due their T5 and Ap-1 choppas .

The entirety of art of war. Goonhammer. Mani Cheema. Name a player who regularly places at the top of majors, and if they have said anything about custodes, it's that they were nerfed out of competitive play entirely.

Also, marines (all of them) are better now too. So are admech. So are sisters. Et cetera. Custodes didn't just get nerfed, like half the factions (Or at least it sometimes feels like power armor is half the factions) in the game caught a serious and dramatic buff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
Richard and John like it... other players don't exist.

They like it under the theory that it is better to overnerf then undernerf. Neither of them think custodes are competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Roll on the weekend and we can find out.

I think Goonhammer's predictions on the meta so far in 2022 have not been great. But maybe they have more clarity on this.

Custodes were a 70%~ win rate faction except versus the 2022 codexes. They needed significant nerfs - not a minor knock and "don't worry, we expect everyone who isn't playing Custodes to run pointy ears, Tau and Tyranids."

To edit. The problem is - as we see throughout these discussions. At least for me, "Middle of the pack" is the desirable result of balance changes. Not "okay that 65% win rate is a bit much... we really think it should be something sensible. Like 60%". Such motivations are why DE were top tier for the best part of a year. GW thinking "oh don't worry, in a few months time we'll release books that make DE look tame by comparison" isn't great for the game.

Again, what would have been the middle got themselves boosted hard. Custodes are towards the bottom now because the middle is higher then it was before the dataslate balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
no other faction whines quite like Custodes. Yes its a big nerf, yes it might be a little more then was needed. But there is no way in hell Custodes is one of the worst books of 9th.

And trying to claim that Custodes are not auto-win because they had lower win rates then Harlequins is just hilarious. So because you lose vs 1, struggle with a 2nd and auto-win against almost everything else you didn't need to get slapped by a serious nerf?

Custodes are crybabies.

Who do you think the nerfed custodes are better then?

I crunched some numbers, this is the rapid-fire range damage dealt vs MEQ profile per point for a guard squad of 10 + vox caster, lascannon, plasmagun, and bolt pistol vs a Scion squad of 10 + vox caster, 4 plasmaguns, and plasma pistol, as well as w/ meltaguns instead of plasmaguns:


Guard (Before Dataslate) = .0307 Damage/Point (.0413 Damage/Point w/ meltaguns)
Guard (After Dataslate (HotE, points adjustment, vs no AoC) = .0538 Damage/Point (.0689 Damage/Point w/ meltaguns)
Guard (After Dataslate (HotE, points adjustment, vs AoC) = .0474 Damage/Point (.0603 Damage/Point w/ meltaguns)

Tempestus (Before Dataslate) = .0346 Damage/Point (.0709 Damage/Point w/ meltaguns)
Tempestus (w/ HotE, vs no AoC) = .0443 Damage/Point (.0801 Damage/Point w/ meltaguns)
Tempestus (w/ HotE, vs AoC) = .0355 Damage/Point (.0652 Damage/Point w/ meltaguns)
Tempetus (no HotE, vs AoC) = .0278 Damage/Point (.0579 Damage/Point w/ meltaguns)

Obviously theres doctrines, auras, psychic powers, orders, etc. that would impact this and the squads aren't necessarily representative of what players fielded or would field, but I think its a decent gauge of relative power disparity/impact, etc. Be kind to your friendly neighborhood Tempestus player, they are not in a good place today.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
no other faction whines quite like Custodes. Yes its a big nerf, yes it might be a little more then was needed. But there is no way in hell Custodes is one of the worst books of 9th.

And trying to claim that Custodes are not auto-win because they had lower win rates then Harlequins is just hilarious. So because you lose vs 1, struggle with a 2nd and auto-win against almost everything else you didn't need to get slapped by a serious nerf?

Custodes are crybabies.

I wouldn't say all Custodes players are. Canhammer has competetive Custodes players and they are much more relaxed about it and mostly point at it making more builds look interesting in the book (one of them mentioned Solar Watch looking more interesting).

It makes builds look way less interesting. Cause it's gonna be back to shield guard spam, and that we dull gak in the 8th edition codex, it won't be any more exciting when people try it now.

stratigo wrote:
The entirety of art of war. Goonhammer. Mani Cheema. Name a player who regularly places at the top of majors, and if they have said anything about custodes, it's that they were nerfed out of competitive play entirely.

Also, marines (all of them) are better now too. So are admech. So are sisters. Et cetera. Custodes didn't just get nerfed, like half the factions (Or at least it sometimes feels like power armor is half the factions) in the game caught a serious and dramatic buff.

Clearly, all is lost, existence is a banal exercise in futility.

So with all the talk about Custodes being nerfed, how many people have actually played games with the models and tried seeing if they work instead of theoryhammering how bad they are?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

stratigo wrote:
The entirety of art of war. Goonhammer. Mani Cheema. Name a player who regularly places at the top of majors, and if they have said anything about custodes, it's that they were nerfed out of competitive play entirely.

Also, marines (all of them) are better now too. So are admech. So are sisters. Et cetera. Custodes didn't just get nerfed, like half the factions (Or at least it sometimes feels like power armor is half the factions) in the game caught a serious and dramatic buff.

Clearly, all is lost, existence is a banal exercise in futility.

Eh, I find the balance changes to be good for the game (though annoyed at GW's design philosophy of adding more rules to counter rules they added). Just very bad for custodes.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So with all the talk about Custodes being nerfed, how many people have actually played games with the models and tried seeing if they work instead of theoryhammering how bad they are?

none, because as you know, you only need to play something to proof that it is OP, no matter what everyone says, as soon as something gets nerfed you don't even need to read the details to know that is is unplayable and not worth another look

 kodos wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So with all the talk about Custodes being nerfed, how many people have actually played games with the models and tried seeing if they work instead of theoryhammering how bad they are?

none, because as you know, you only need to play something to proof that it is OP, no matter what everyone says, as soon as something gets nerfed you don't even need to read the details to know that is is unplayable and not worth another look

Welcome to Dakkadakka.com where everything is either OP or garbage-tier.

People that know testers and who have their income based partialy on being known to play w40k did play custodes and other changed armies for sure.

Karol wrote:
People that know testers and who have their income based partialy on being known to play w40k did play custodes and other changed armies for sure.

Not the best is not the same as garbage.

 catbarf wrote:

 oni wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Lasguns can auto-wound Titans, but not Hellguns.

That makes sense.

Projectile ammunition is feeble compared to the lasgun-light of the God Emperor.

Psst. Hellguns are just spicy lasguns.

I didn't think GW could somehow make the auto-wound rule dumber, but by golly, they've done it. Someone ought to tell the Schola Progenium that their trained-from-adolescence elite kill squads aren't praying hard enough or whatever the prevailing in-universe justification is.

The stuff GW ruleswriters seem to smoke should be enough to knock out a noise marine.

The issue is that the "professional" scene has a bar which is "can you expect to place with this list". And so the binary of "OP" and "Trash" sort of feeds through.

Its fair to say, I don't think Custodes are going to be OP any more. I expect this week's tournament winners will be re-worked Harlequins (foot troupes, bikes & characters still busted yo), Ulthwe "good stuff", and Tyranids. I hope to then see a mix of other factions. Some of this may be skewed by low tournament player base.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Karol wrote:
People that know testers and who have their income based partialy on being known to play w40k did play custodes and other changed armies for sure.

Not the best is not the same as garbage.

I mean, I think Harpster's quotes were pretty clear. If you want some more though:

Lennon

I’m in the opposite camp, where I believe Custodes were hit too hard here...I don’t think the datasheets are strong enough to just win games anymore, and I think the hard hitting armies will have no problem cleaning out bikes or dreads without their defensive stratagems.

Wings

Too much. Custodes needed a big change, but this is quite a bit harsher than what I personally wanted to see, particularly in the context of Marines getting a big boost
/quote]

A big discussion of the dataslate (and where these quotes are from) is here:

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-april-2022-40k-balance-dataslate-competitive-roundtable/

I super chatted on the aow stream tonight and specifically asked if they thought the Custodes nerfs were a bit overhyped. Jack harpster admitted that someone I can't remember was running a skimmer list and was very happy with it. Custodes is a deep enough codex that people will make good armies with it still.