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Just a really bad prediction, but I just wanted to be the first to actually call it.

Points will go away. This will create much nashing of teeth and pulling of beards, but it will also be an attempt by GW to completely balance all factions at once. No more minor point fixes for ultra useful generalist squads like Marines. This will also greatly reduce the need for weekly bandaid fixes or day one patches to broken codexes, in my view, because a Space marine with a bolt rifle is now the exact same as a space marine with an assault bolter. They've already started doing it with Custodes. Every Custodes model unit now basically costs the same, unless you give them a shield, or a heavy Weapon. The biggest place this will hurt:

VEHICLES. They will have to homogenize tanks and vehicles with standard load outs, they can call them "patterns" and say "THIS PATTERN LEHMAN RUSS COMES WITH BOLTERS ON THE SIDE AND FRONT, HAS NORMAL CANNON, AND IS CALLED A CONQUEROR, 10PL.

THIS ONE COMES WITH PLASMA CANNONS AND PLASMA TURRET, 15 PL.

THIS ONE etc etc.

Generalists will need to be handled the same way as Guard. A basic squad of 5 would be say, 5PL, but give it a SW trooper and a HW Trooper, that squad is now 8-9PL.

This will also have the backlash effect of forcing diversity on the competitive gaming scene, as now there is no min-max setup. You can run special rules at each event to narrow/widen the field. "YOU CAN ONLY HAVE 15PL DEVOTED TO ELITES" or something like it.

It would also completely nuke the way 40k does it's Detachment system, which is crap in my opinion.

The only way GW games could be any more of a clusterfeth balance wise is if we went to that format. Imagine 10 marines with 2 meltas costing the same as 6 marines without them. The game will still be horribly broken, just in a different way. Whatever army has access to a lot of upgrades on their squads will dominate while the armies with set loadouts or smaller unit sizes will get stomped. PL is a half-assed system designed so that 2 new players who don't own a codex can throw some models down and have a game with armies that are somewhere in the same ballpark. It falls apart much faster than points in a competitive environment where someone is actively trying to break the game and find the most powerful combos. Luckily this is such a horrible, bad, awful, no-good idea that even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to attempt it. It's only a tiny bit better for balance than "bring as many models as can fit in your deployment zone with whatever weapons you want to put on them and whoever makes the loudest laser noises wins"

Not a chance. Points is the entire balancing mechanism that facilitates matched play. Another way of saying the same thing is you can't sell a munitorum supplement for PL- there isn't enough granularity in the system.

If anything, they'd get rid of PL. It doesn't make them any money and as much as I'm a fan of it, I like it because it's simple and allows for last minute swaps, not because it's an effective way to balance the game.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just a really bad prediction, but I just wanted to be the first to actually call it.

Points will go away. This will create much nashing of teeth and pulling of beards, but it will also be an attempt by GW to completely balance all factions at once. No more minor point fixes for ultra useful generalist squads like Marines. This will also greatly reduce the need for weekly bandaid fixes or day one patches to broken codexes, in my view, because a Space marine with a bolt rifle is now the exact same as a space marine with an assault bolter. They've already started doing it with Custodes. Every Custodes model unit now basically costs the same, unless you give them a shield, or a heavy Weapon. The biggest place this will hurt:

VEHICLES. They will have to homogenize tanks and vehicles with standard load outs, they can call them "patterns" and say "THIS PATTERN LEHMAN RUSS COMES WITH BOLTERS ON THE SIDE AND FRONT, HAS NORMAL CANNON, AND IS CALLED A CONQUEROR, 10PL.

THIS ONE COMES WITH PLASMA CANNONS AND PLASMA TURRET, 15 PL.

THIS ONE etc etc.

Generalists will need to be handled the same way as Guard. A basic squad of 5 would be say, 5PL, but give it a SW trooper and a HW Trooper, that squad is now 8-9PL.

This will also have the backlash effect of forcing diversity on the competitive gaming scene, as now there is no min-max setup. You can run special rules at each event to narrow/widen the field. "YOU CAN ONLY HAVE 15PL DEVOTED TO ELITES" or something like it.

It would also completely nuke the way 40k does it's Detachment system, which is crap in my opinion.

They dropped the points with AoS and it created a revolt among the gamers. What a debacle this had been! Pretty sure GW won´t do such an error again.

More likely is that models will be more directly represented by and represent the so called data slates and the conversion to a battle themed CCG with expensive plastic tokens will be complete.

Points may be used to fine tune such slates or PL May just become a new word for points, but the main change will likely be to cement the No model no rules scheme around CCG mechanics with the result being that any army list or build is essentially a deck with X many points or PL or whatever.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just a really bad prediction, but I just wanted to be the first to actually call it.

Points will go away. This will create much nashing of teeth and pulling of beards, but it will also be an attempt by GW to completely balance all factions at once. No more minor point fixes for ultra useful generalist squads like Marines. This will also greatly reduce the need for weekly bandaid fixes or day one patches to broken codexes, in my view, because a Space marine with a bolt rifle is now the exact same as a space marine with an assault bolter. They've already started doing it with Custodes. Every Custodes model unit now basically costs the same, unless you give them a shield, or a heavy Weapon. The biggest place this will hurt:

VEHICLES. They will have to homogenize tanks and vehicles with standard load outs, they can call them "patterns" and say "THIS PATTERN LEHMAN RUSS COMES WITH BOLTERS ON THE SIDE AND FRONT, HAS NORMAL CANNON, AND IS CALLED A CONQUEROR, 10PL.

THIS ONE COMES WITH PLASMA CANNONS AND PLASMA TURRET, 15 PL.

THIS ONE etc etc.

Generalists will need to be handled the same way as Guard. A basic squad of 5 would be say, 5PL, but give it a SW trooper and a HW Trooper, that squad is now 8-9PL.

This will also have the backlash effect of forcing diversity on the competitive gaming scene, as now there is no min-max setup. You can run special rules at each event to narrow/widen the field. "YOU CAN ONLY HAVE 15PL DEVOTED TO ELITES" or something like it.

It would also completely nuke the way 40k does it's Detachment system, which is crap in my opinion.

I've been playing power level 40K for about four months now since the stores opened up. It's way more fun than points, assuming you don't get matched up with power gamers who want to ROFL stomp seals. Bring it on!

You could easily put Power Level in for points and make it the only way to do it.

It would be your true test on how big the pie is that the competitive players make up, because they would mostly set their collections on fire and storm out if that ever happened.

I think to me that GW knows that and that will never happen.

You could see an AOS styled point system come in though where you don't pay per model, but per x models. They have been doing that for years now and AOS taught us that just as long as there are some points, the community was largely accepting of whatever that big dump truck shoveled at them.

Reminds me a bit of 2nd edition. Where you paid for the squad, not per model. SM weren't 30pts each. A Tactical squad was 300pts and contained 10 marines.

 Togusa wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just a really bad prediction, but I just wanted to be the first to actually call it.

Points will go away. This will create much nashing of teeth and pulling of beards, but it will also be an attempt by GW to completely balance all factions at once. No more minor point fixes for ultra useful generalist squads like Marines. This will also greatly reduce the need for weekly bandaid fixes or day one patches to broken codexes, in my view, because a Space marine with a bolt rifle is now the exact same as a space marine with an assault bolter. They've already started doing it with Custodes. Every Custodes model unit now basically costs the same, unless you give them a shield, or a heavy Weapon. The biggest place this will hurt:

VEHICLES. They will have to homogenize tanks and vehicles with standard load outs, they can call them "patterns" and say "THIS PATTERN LEHMAN RUSS COMES WITH BOLTERS ON THE SIDE AND FRONT, HAS NORMAL CANNON, AND IS CALLED A CONQUEROR, 10PL.

THIS ONE COMES WITH PLASMA CANNONS AND PLASMA TURRET, 15 PL.

THIS ONE etc etc.

Generalists will need to be handled the same way as Guard. A basic squad of 5 would be say, 5PL, but give it a SW trooper and a HW Trooper, that squad is now 8-9PL.

This will also have the backlash effect of forcing diversity on the competitive gaming scene, as now there is no min-max setup. You can run special rules at each event to narrow/widen the field. "YOU CAN ONLY HAVE 15PL DEVOTED TO ELITES" or something like it.

It would also completely nuke the way 40k does it's Detachment system, which is crap in my opinion.

I've been playing power level 40K for about four months now since the stores opened up. It's way more fun than points, assuming you don't get matched up with power gamers who want to ROFL stomp seals. Bring it on!

Nothing fun about not paying for upgrades.

While I think this prediction is wrong, GW has been moving in this direction with the latest iteration of points.

Think of all the weapon upgrades that have been given uniform points levels along with improved rules for the weaker items to bring them closer to the more powerful. Or all the units with some items built into their cost with interchangeable upgrades for most if not all options.

All GW has to do to make Power Level work instead of points is:

Roll more upgrades into a units base points

Allow some upgrades or number of upgrades cost increase PL

Breakdown PL for additional models to the smallest number possible rather than +5 PL for up to 5 more models

For Example, let's take the Poster Boy unit of yesterday, the Space Marine Tactical Squad.

Today, it is PL 5 for 5 models or PL 10 for 6-10 models.

But what if it was?

Base PL 5 for 5 Models, Sgt may swap either Bolter or Bolt Pistol for Chainsword

+1 Power Level for 1 more model, +2 Power Level for 3 more models, or +3 Power for 5 more models

+1 PL for 2 unit upgrades, +2 PL for 4 unit upgrades

A fully upgraded unit is still 10 PL, but you have more control over the exact PL and models in the unit than 5 or 10 PL gives you. It also encourages more use of upgrades since you don't just purchase 1 because of points efficiency.

Is GW likely to go this route? Who knows. They could at 10 Edition Launch with a PDF of Power Levels with no Points and then roll out the new method in the Codexes, but they would have to admit defeat and not put PL in the Unit entries since they would need to be able to readily change them for balance reasons.

You don't pay for upgrades largely in AOS either.

How many units in AoS have upgrades akin to 40k's?

Tygre wrote:Reminds me a bit of 2nd edition. Where you paid for the squad, not per model. SM weren't 30pts each. A Tactical squad was 300pts and contained 10 marines.

I miss more restrictions and caveats.

Then again 2nd is my favorite 40k so I'm kinda biased.

Well, ya got my click.

Toofast wrote:
The only way GW games could be any more of a clusterfeth balance wise is if we went to that format. Imagine 10 marines with 2 meltas costing the same as 6 marines without them. The game will still be horribly broken, just in a different way.

true

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How many units in AoS have upgrades akin to 40k's?

I don't think GW cares. Its roughly the same thing. It may not have the sheer number of them, but its roughly the same thing.

Unit may take banner and if they do they get this. Unit may also take this other banner and if they do they get this. Unit may upgrade a model to be the leader and if so it does this. Unit may give 1 model out of 5 this weapon that does this better stuff.

No points costs.

Thats pretty common.

Hero may take one of these magic items for free. Hero may take one of these army upgrades for free.

40k was similar.

Upgrade marine to sergeant for +15 points.
Give 1 marine a plasma pistol for +15 points.
Give 1 marine this rocket launcher for +15 points.
Give unit this special rule for +1 point / model.

Hero may take power fist for +25 points.
Army may take this special rule and if they do then each foo model pays +2 points more.

The only difference is in aos you don't pay the points and there are less overall but - still basically same thing. Easily in the realm of being done to 40k. Also easy to make lists and the aos crowd seems to love it but I can't tell if they really love it or just love it because GW told them thats the way it is and they just open up and say ahhh with a positive demeanor.

'First to call it?' Hahaha

It's obvious that 8th was designed to use Power Levels instead of points, but GW botched them back in after seeing the disastrous AoS launch.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How many units in AoS have upgrades akin to 40k's?

None. Upgrades are free and are tied to x per unit.

Toofast wrote:
The only way GW games could be any more of a clusterfeth balance wise is if we went to that format. Imagine 10 marines with 2 meltas costing the same as 6 marines without them.

Daemon's advocate: it would be kind of weird to field our hypothetical 6 dudes with no special weapons. At that point, you're just spending PL really inefficiently; which you can also do with points. Not that I'm keen to defend PL. Power Level is fine for quick casual games where you want to try out some upgrades you can't normally stand to spend points on, but making it the main way to play the game would be a mistake.

to be fair, apocalypse does do okay using just PL - in that case, extra troops and heavy weapons increase PL, the latter usually by 1 regardless of the specific weapon. There's no reason PL can't work for army selection, but GW would need to pay a lot more attention TO it.

GW makes a big deal of 'tweaking' points on a regular basis to try and maintain balance. Regardless of whether they succeed or not, I don't see them doing away with that tool because the other option is tweaking rules, and a unit changing stats every six months is a lot more disruptive to someone who doesn't play that faction.
(yes, I realise the 'DLC'-esque effect of sourcebooks adding stratagems and army rules kind of does that by default).

Sigmar point system is nearly identicle to the PL system of 40k. My group has yet to play a single 9th game with points, we cant be hassled with the grainular imbalamces so we stick to broad abstracts that PL provide.

I know my grots feel better as 2pl of my 100pl force (2%) instead of 50 of my 2000 (2.5%)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How many units in AoS have upgrades akin to 40k's?

AoS uses Power Level instead of detailed points, and people accept it because upgrades are options and not better by default
while at the same time GW reduces the amount of upgrades over time (new armies in 3rd do not make a difference between weapons any more)

40k once was similar regarding upgrades and it would not hurt the game if they go back to that

Marine Squad = 120 Points
4 Marines with Bolter, 1 Seargent with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword
exchange 1 Bolter with Flamer, Plasma, Melter
+5 Marines for 100 points
exchange 1 Bolter with Laser, Rocket-Launcher, MultiMelter
exchange Chainsword with Power Weapon or Power Fist
exchange Bolt Pistol with Plasma Pistol

now it depends on the rules of those if your upgrades are options or not
eg Chainsword +1A, Power Weapon +1AP, Power Fist +2AP always strike last


the problem is not Power Levels or the amount of upgrades, but that some weapons are clearly better in all situations than other more special weapons (no point in taking a Melter or Flamer over Plasma if it is better against both targets)

Rolling upgrades into the basic cost of the squad defeats the purpose of points.

No, points are there to make it easier for people to play with forces of equal strength against each other
How detailed those are does not matter for this (it does matter for internal faction balance)

Factions not being balanced defeats the purpose of points as if 2k points of faction A have no chance of 2k points of faction B it does no matter if upgrades for unis are integrated in units points or not

Solution to so many of the problems people have with PL seems pretty simple - "Unit X costs 5 PL and includes 3 upgrades from the following list", if you want more granularity "Unit X costs 5 PL and includes 2 upgrades from the following, +1 upgrade from this list, +1 upgrade from this list", etc.

As it stands, the whole "paying for upgrades" thing is a meme on many 9th edition units, there are numerous units that have a large number of upgrade options that cost precisely 0 points/are interchangeable with base wargear at no cost, and many more where the upgrades all cost the same (usually +5 or +10), etc.

 alextroy wrote:
While I think this prediction is wrong, GW has been moving in this direction with the latest iteration of points.

Think of all the weapon upgrades that have been given uniform points levels along with improved rules for the weaker items to bring them closer to the more powerful. Or all the units with some items built into their cost with interchangeable upgrades for most if not all options.

All GW has to do to make Power Level work instead of points is:

Roll more upgrades into a units base points

Allow some upgrades or number of upgrades cost increase PL

Breakdown PL for additional models to the smallest number possible rather than +5 PL for up to 5 more models

For Example, let's take the Poster Boy unit of yesterday, the Space Marine Tactical Squad.

Today, it is PL 5 for 5 models or PL 10 for 6-10 models.

But what if it was?

Base PL 5 for 5 Models, Sgt may swap either Bolter or Bolt Pistol for Chainsword

+1 Power Level for 1 more model, +2 Power Level for 3 more models, or +3 Power for 5 more models

+1 PL for 2 unit upgrades, +2 PL for 4 unit upgrades

A fully upgraded unit is still 10 PL, but you have more control over the exact PL and models in the unit than 5 or 10 PL gives you. It also encourages more use of upgrades since you don't just purchase 1 because of points efficiency.

Is GW likely to go this route? Who knows. They could at 10 Edition Launch with a PDF of Power Levels with no Points and then roll out the new method in the Codexes, but they would have to admit defeat and not put PL in the Unit entries since they would need to be able to readily change them for balance reasons.

This is just points and calling it PL. A rose is a rose.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
While I think this prediction is wrong, GW has been moving in this direction with the latest iteration of points.

Think of all the weapon upgrades that have been given uniform points levels along with improved rules for the weaker items to bring them closer to the more powerful. Or all the units with some items built into their cost with interchangeable upgrades for most if not all options.

All GW has to do to make Power Level work instead of points is:

Roll more upgrades into a units base points

Allow some upgrades or number of upgrades cost increase PL

Breakdown PL for additional models to the smallest number possible rather than +5 PL for up to 5 more models

For Example, let's take the Poster Boy unit of yesterday, the Space Marine Tactical Squad.

Today, it is PL 5 for 5 models or PL 10 for 6-10 models.

But what if it was?

Base PL 5 for 5 Models, Sgt may swap either Bolter or Bolt Pistol for Chainsword

+1 Power Level for 1 more model, +2 Power Level for 3 more models, or +3 Power for 5 more models

+1 PL for 2 unit upgrades, +2 PL for 4 unit upgrades

A fully upgraded unit is still 10 PL, but you have more control over the exact PL and models in the unit than 5 or 10 PL gives you. It also encourages more use of upgrades since you don't just purchase 1 because of points efficiency.

Is GW likely to go this route? Who knows. They could at 10 Edition Launch with a PDF of Power Levels with no Points and then roll out the new method in the Codexes, but they would have to admit defeat and not put PL in the Unit entries since they would need to be able to readily change them for balance reasons.

This is just points and calling it PL. A rose is a rose.

Waht fundamentally is the difference between points and pl? One is just a more granular system in a game where a lot of that granularity is pretty fake.

I really like PL.
Easy math, simple
You get to learn what the actual weapons are over time!
Yes, factions with limited customization can have issues (my poor Necrons). But this does help with the previous point.
PL doesn't automatically mean Crusade or Open Play, you can use PL with Matched Play. We use the Open Play missions, but still have Detachments and such.

 Blndmage wrote:
I really like PL.
Easy math, simple
You get to learn what the actual weapons are over time!
Yes, factions with limited customization can have issues (my poor Necrons). But this does help with the previous point.
PL doesn't automatically mean Crusade or Open Play, you can use PL with Matched Play. We use the Open Play missions, but still have Detachments and such.

I hate PL because a squad of terminators with combibolters and chainaxes cost the same as a squad of combimelta and chainfist

Nope. Will never happen. GW learned this the hard way with AoS.

I predict that Power Level will not survive to 10th edition. It's a failed concept.