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2022/04/21 19:30:53
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Yet the game remains in a horribly unbalanced state for time immemorial ... and still shovel cash at GW.
Which does tell us people are having fun with the game. Because the game tends to be more than just the big tourney circuits where broken skew lists are probably the de facto lists.
I played Crusade and one guy just built a force around his Grot Tanks and Battle fortress. Not a good list, but fun was had by most people and many adjusted accordingly.
...and that is the actual magic behind Warhammer. The game may be broken as a balanced game, but for a beer and pretzel game between friends it is a fun, albeit expensive, hobby. Hell, I participate regularly in RTTs and it's always fun. Sure, a few might be fielding some unbalanced list, but most others are just fielding what they like and have fun with and you get to meet other people excited about the hobby and the armies therein.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There's a reason why some people mention how a lot of the changes recently are quite mentioned as being very positively received on other places. Dakka has a very different microcosm.
The local scene here is just positive about the new dataslate. People just want to have fun.
The magic of Warhammer is needing to do balance adjustments yourself instead of holding the designers accountable?
Por que no los dos?
That's probably the best thing to do IMO. You can multi-task.
If I HAVE to modify a product to be functional it isn't worth an expensive price point
2022/04/21 19:33:10
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Because I'm paying hundreds of dollars for hardcover rulebooks, codexes, campaign books and supplements. I shouldn't have to rewrite them with the cooperation of my entire playgroup to have a decent experience. That's what I'm paying THEM to do. I want to play wargames, not larp as a game designer because the actual game designers are totally incompetent. This is especially true when a company charges, by far, the most in the industry for rules.
2022/04/21 19:34:52
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Yet the game remains in a horribly unbalanced state for time immemorial ... and still shovel cash at GW.
Which does tell us people are having fun with the game. Because the game tends to be more than just the big tourney circuits where broken skew lists are probably the de facto lists.
I played Crusade and one guy just built a force around his Grot Tanks and Battle fortress. Not a good list, but fun was had by most people and many adjusted accordingly.
...and that is the actual magic behind Warhammer. The game may be broken as a balanced game, but for a beer and pretzel game between friends it is a fun, albeit expensive, hobby. Hell, I participate regularly in RTTs and it's always fun. Sure, a few might be fielding some unbalanced list, but most others are just fielding what they like and have fun with and you get to meet other people excited about the hobby and the armies therein.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There's a reason why some people mention how a lot of the changes recently are quite mentioned as being very positively received on other places. Dakka has a very different microcosm.
The local scene here is just positive about the new dataslate. People just want to have fun.
The magic of Warhammer is needing to do balance adjustments yourself instead of holding the designers accountable?
Por que no los dos?
That's probably the best thing to do IMO. You can multi-task.
If I HAVE to modify a product to be functional it isn't worth an expensive price point
This. If 40k had free rules, and the Codecs were just for collectors, I wouldn't be as harsh on them.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2022/04/21 19:40:06
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Yet the game remains in a horribly unbalanced state for time immemorial ... and still shovel cash at GW.
Which does tell us people are having fun with the game. Because the game tends to be more than just the big tourney circuits where broken skew lists are probably the de facto lists.
I played Crusade and one guy just built a force around his Grot Tanks and Battle fortress. Not a good list, but fun was had by most people and many adjusted accordingly.
...and that is the actual magic behind Warhammer. The game may be broken as a balanced game, but for a beer and pretzel game between friends it is a fun, albeit expensive, hobby. Hell, I participate regularly in RTTs and it's always fun. Sure, a few might be fielding some unbalanced list, but most others are just fielding what they like and have fun with and you get to meet other people excited about the hobby and the armies therein.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There's a reason why some people mention how a lot of the changes recently are quite mentioned as being very positively received on other places. Dakka has a very different microcosm.
The local scene here is just positive about the new dataslate. People just want to have fun.
The magic of Warhammer is needing to do balance adjustments yourself instead of holding the designers accountable?
Por que no los dos?
That's probably the best thing to do IMO. You can multi-task.
If I HAVE to modify a product to be functional it isn't worth an expensive price point
This. If 40k had free rules, and the Codecs were just for collectors, I wouldn't be as harsh on them.
Bingo. So when someone goes all "BeEr AnD PrEtZeL" it's just so detached from reality of the situation. No other game will get this kind of defense and it's just so.......cultish
2022/04/21 20:01:09
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
auticus wrote: Its interesting, maybe ironic, that we fight so passionately on the Power Level vs Points things, because Points are more balanced because they have more precision... indicating a strong strong desire for actual balance...
Wait, but I thought players didn't want balance? Which is it?
2022/04/21 20:05:15
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Yet the game remains in a horribly unbalanced state for time immemorial ... and still shovel cash at GW.
Which does tell us people are having fun with the game. Because the game tends to be more than just the big tourney circuits where broken skew lists are probably the de facto lists.
I played Crusade and one guy just built a force around his Grot Tanks and Battle fortress. Not a good list, but fun was had by most people and many adjusted accordingly.
...and that is the actual magic behind Warhammer. The game may be broken as a balanced game, but for a beer and pretzel game between friends it is a fun, albeit expensive, hobby. Hell, I participate regularly in RTTs and it's always fun. Sure, a few might be fielding some unbalanced list, but most others are just fielding what they like and have fun with and you get to meet other people excited about the hobby and the armies therein.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There's a reason why some people mention how a lot of the changes recently are quite mentioned as being very positively received on other places. Dakka has a very different microcosm.
The local scene here is just positive about the new dataslate. People just want to have fun.
The magic of Warhammer is needing to do balance adjustments yourself instead of holding the designers accountable?
Por que no los dos?
That's probably the best thing to do IMO. You can multi-task.
If I HAVE to modify a product to be functional it isn't worth an expensive price point
This. If 40k had free rules, and the Codecs were just for collectors, I wouldn't be as harsh on them.
Bingo. So when someone goes all "BeEr AnD PrEtZeL" it's just so detached from reality of the situation. No other game will get this kind of defense and it's just so.......cultish
I see no cult in stating the obvious - for 30 years GW has been disastrously bad at providing "hassle free, balanced, competitive environment", but they have been great at providing a beer and pretzels hobby about little plastic space men. Shouting at the interwebz about "holding them accountable" does not, in any way, improve neither the state of the game, nor your personal, week by week gaming experience. So, entirely non-cultist realists take their own fun in their own hands instead of waiting for the reality that will most likely never come. People have been shouting at GW about bad balance for decades and it is currently absolutely clear, that even when GW finally listens, they are completely unable to deliver - 9th ed is by many, many players considered the worst it has ever been. And it is in part exactly because ITC has their hand in "balancing" the game and shifting focus to tournaments.
Realists, not cultists.
2022/04/21 20:12:57
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
OPR is more of a sandbox, with known flaws in unit design/balancing and you need to modify the rules to fit your needs
it is free and the advanced rules are low cost that everyone is ok with it
40k is a premium priced product, hence people want a finished game and not something to tinker around
people buying a car on a budget and need to do stuff on their own to get the sound of the radio right is ok
people buying an expensive sports car and need to find an engine on their own that will fit and than claiming that this is part of the lifestyle and the manufacturer does not earn enough money to include such things is bs
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2022/04/21 20:22:43
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Yet the game remains in a horribly unbalanced state for time immemorial ... and still shovel cash at GW.
Which does tell us people are having fun with the game. Because the game tends to be more than just the big tourney circuits where broken skew lists are probably the de facto lists.
I played Crusade and one guy just built a force around his Grot Tanks and Battle fortress. Not a good list, but fun was had by most people and many adjusted accordingly.
...and that is the actual magic behind Warhammer. The game may be broken as a balanced game, but for a beer and pretzel game between friends it is a fun, albeit expensive, hobby. Hell, I participate regularly in RTTs and it's always fun. Sure, a few might be fielding some unbalanced list, but most others are just fielding what they like and have fun with and you get to meet other people excited about the hobby and the armies therein.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There's a reason why some people mention how a lot of the changes recently are quite mentioned as being very positively received on other places. Dakka has a very different microcosm.
The local scene here is just positive about the new dataslate. People just want to have fun.
The magic of Warhammer is needing to do balance adjustments yourself instead of holding the designers accountable?
Por que no los dos?
That's probably the best thing to do IMO. You can multi-task.
If I HAVE to modify a product to be functional it isn't worth an expensive price point
This. If 40k had free rules, and the Codecs were just for collectors, I wouldn't be as harsh on them.
Bingo. So when someone goes all "BeEr AnD PrEtZeL" it's just so detached from reality of the situation. No other game will get this kind of defense and it's just so.......cultish
But I'm not defending them? At least I don't think so.
I think I need to clarify what I was referring to, at least in terms of the "holding the developers to task" part, especially since you all brought up the expense part:
Don't buy from GW, or any means that would give GW money.
Battlescribe and Wahapedia still exist for rules and list building. Adjust as needed and accepted by your gaming group. EBay exists for buying models from other people. Those people bought from GW (or bought from someone who bought from GW), so that money's already spent, GW doesn't get a thing from you buying from eBay.
I guess that's my point; as the best way to hold a company to task is to not buy from them, just don't give GW your money. You can get official models and rules without having to give GW a single dime. Then, you can adjust the rules/balance as desired.
2022/04/21 20:35:22
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Don't buy from GW, or any means that would give GW money.
Battlescribe and Wahapedia still exist for rules and list building. Adjust as needed and accepted by your gaming group. EBay exists for buying models from other people. Those people bought from GW (or bought from someone who bought from GW), so that money's already spent, GW doesn't get a thing from you buying from eBay.
I guess that's my point; as the best way to hold a company to task is to not buy from them, just don't give GW your money. You can get official models and rules without having to give GW a single dime. Then, you can adjust the rules/balance as desired.
well, as long as you play the game in public, or any other way that brings new players in that start with a GW game, you help GW making money. Just not the direct way by giving them yours, but to help them via advertising and making the game the one that is played by everyone
and buying off ebay is still money for GW, it is just another 3rd party seller that bought first from GW and than sells it to others
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2022/04/21 20:40:17
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
people buying an expensive sports car and need to find an engine on their own that will fit and than claiming that this is part of the lifestyle and the manufacturer does not earn enough money to include such things is bs
If you knew, that this expensive sports car manufacturer has been selling his cars without an engine for 30 years to a great financial success, would you still think, that shouting your discontent at the internet will change his business model? I don't think so.
The first thing that wannabe competitve 40k player hears when he decides to enter this game is that this game lacks balance and depth and that GW is a scam that forces churn and burn for financial gain. It has been like this for decades. Why do people enter then if they know they won't like the experience? I don't think that "because it's the only game in town" is in any way a rational answer to that question.
2022/04/21 20:44:06
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
people buying an expensive sports car and need to find an engine on their own that will fit and than claiming that this is part of the lifestyle and the manufacturer does not earn enough money to include such things is bs
If you knew, that this expensive sports car manufacturer has been selling his cars without an engine for 30 years to a great financial success, would you still think, that shouting your discontent at the internet will change his business model? I don't think so.
The first thing that wannabe competitve 40k player hears when he decides to enter this game is that this game lacks balance and depth and that GW is a scam that forces churn and burn for financial gain. It has been like this for decades. Why do people enter then if they know they won't like the experience? I don't think that "because it's the only game in town" is in any way a rational answer to that question.
Because "This could be better," isn't mutually exclusive with "This is fun." Even if the first statement is true to a massive extent.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2022/04/21 20:47:23
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
JNAProductions wrote: If 40k had free rules, and the Codecs were just for collectors, I wouldn't be as harsh on them.
Couldn't agree more. If the rules were available as a free pdf download, I would just fix them with my group or build my list around each tournament's mission pack and houserules. When I'm paying $200 for books to get the rules for my army, and some of them might not even be valid for 6 months, I don't expect to do half the work of making them playable.
2022/04/21 21:06:41
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Tawnis wrote: So obviously points vs PL = big debate, but I think a hybridized system could work just fine.
You get X PL for your army and X Points for all the upgrades across your army.
I've played a lot of both points and PL and both have their issues. Points tend to leave most upgrade options by the wayside in favour of the leanest, most efficient units, while PL games throw every possible upgrade on a model because there is usually no reason not to.
Just saying, it would be nice to have a middle ground where people have some extra room to play around with customizability, without sacrificing unit efficiency; and I don't think that it would make calculating lists any more complex.
That would actually be interesting, have games go off power levels, and each unit you bring also gives you x amount of points for upgrades, with troops providing the most upgrade points for your army to use anywhere.
To many unpainted models to count.
2022/04/21 21:28:10
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
The local scene here is just positive about the new dataslate. People just want to have fun.
Sure I can see that. I'm not even speaking about the tournament scene.
I want to play narrative campaigns with my thousand sons without having my balls smashed by a sledgehammer every game because I like thousand sons and rubrics.
Having my balls smashed by a sledgehammer isn't much fun.
I want the game to be balanced or at least not a super negative play experience to play the armies that I love and want to play.
2022/04/21 21:44:54
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
For a person who builds a list based on a story or the rule of cool and plays against others who do the same, there isn't a lot of tinkering necessary.
For someone who plays the game like it's a sport or career? Yeah, you're going to have some trouble.
GW is trying, but they're so used to making their games to cater to the former type of player that they aren't as good as they need to be at doing what they need to in order to keep the latter type of player happy.
They are certainly trying to cater to everyone- if they weren't, there wouldn't be three ways to play, four sizes of game, and two ways to build lists. There's evidence to suggest that this strategy is working for them- the player base has never been so big or so broad.
Obviously, it isn't perfect- in fact none of the ways to play is 100% perfect. But they are trying; the recent Matched Play Tempest of War Deck is clear evidence that GW knows GT Matched isn't working for everyone as a default standard for pick-up games. They are now creating options within options!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/21 21:46:30
2022/04/21 22:29:23
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Based on their most recent financial results and current tournament attendance, their playerbase was bigger 1-2 years ago. Our 40kFLGS tournament went from 32 players down to 14 but a lot more people are playing Infinity and other games now.
2022/04/21 23:17:57
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Don't buy from GW, or any means that would give GW money.
Battlescribe and Wahapedia still exist for rules and list building. Adjust as needed and accepted by your gaming group. EBay exists for buying models from other people. Those people bought from GW (or bought from someone who bought from GW), so that money's already spent, GW doesn't get a thing from you buying from eBay.
I guess that's my point; as the best way to hold a company to task is to not buy from them, just don't give GW your money. You can get official models and rules without having to give GW a single dime. Then, you can adjust the rules/balance as desired.
well, as long as you play the game in public, or any other way that brings new players in that start with a GW game, you help GW making money. Just not the direct way by giving them yours, but to help them via advertising and making the game the one that is played by everyone
Then the only answer would be not to play in public, now wouldn't it?
buying off ebay is still money for GW, it is just another 3rd party seller that bought first from GW and than sells it to others
It's at least less money; you buying a $50 kit from eBay means buying from someone who already spent $50. Versus you buying that same kit for $50 while the other guy already spent $50, giving GW a total of $100.
...or you could 3d print stuff, but I don't want to get into a discussion on that; I agree too much with both sides of that argument to have a solid opinion on it.
2022/04/21 23:35:49
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just a really bad prediction, but I just wanted to be the first to actually call it.
Points will go away. This will create much nashing of teeth and pulling of beards, but it will also be an attempt by GW to completely balance all factions at once. No more minor point fixes for ultra useful generalist squads like Marines. This will also greatly reduce the need for weekly bandaid fixes or day one patches to broken codexes, in my view, because a Space marine with a bolt rifle is now the exact same as a space marine with an assault bolter. They've already started doing it with Custodes. Every Custodes model unit now basically costs the same, unless you give them a shield, or a heavy Weapon. The biggest place this will hurt:
VEHICLES. They will have to homogenize tanks and vehicles with standard load outs, they can call them "patterns" and say "THIS PATTERN LEHMAN RUSS COMES WITH BOLTERS ON THE SIDE AND FRONT, HAS NORMAL CANNON, AND IS CALLED A CONQUEROR, 10PL.
THIS ONE COMES WITH PLASMA CANNONS AND PLASMA TURRET, 15 PL.
THIS ONE etc etc.
Generalists will need to be handled the same way as Guard. A basic squad of 5 would be say, 5PL, but give it a SW trooper and a HW Trooper, that squad is now 8-9PL.
This will also have the backlash effect of forcing diversity on the competitive gaming scene, as now there is no min-max setup. You can run special rules at each event to narrow/widen the field. "YOU CAN ONLY HAVE 15PL DEVOTED TO ELITES" or something like it.
It would also completely nuke the way 40k does it's Detachment system, which is crap in my opinion.
do you have some sort of reason to belive this is happening or that 10th edition is imminant or are you just wanting to run around screaming that the sky is falling because you don't have a better use of your time?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2022/04/22 05:16:30
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
nou wrote: I see no cult in stating the obvious - for 30 years GW has been disastrously bad at providing "hassle free, balanced, competitive environment", but they have been great at providing a beer and pretzels hobby about little plastic space men.
Nah, if you sit down to have a casual beer and pretzels game of 40k one side is likely going to be blown out pretty hard because of 1st turn or army imbalance or whatever.
And rebalancing the game for GW means you've gone past beer & pretzels.
2022/04/22 05:35:28
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
nou wrote: I see no cult in stating the obvious - for 30 years GW has been disastrously bad at providing "hassle free, balanced, competitive environment", but they have been great at providing a beer and pretzels hobby about little plastic space men.
Nah, if you sit down to have a casual beer and pretzels game of 40k one side is likely going to be blown out pretty hard because of 1st turn or army imbalance or whatever.
And rebalancing the game for GW means you've gone past beer & pretzels.
8th edition was actually pretty good at the beer & pretzels thing. If you avoided the one or two super-optimal things in your codex, you could generally toss together a casual game and have things be pretty close. That was pretty much the vibe of my gaming club's league night for a long time.
I feel like 9th could be similarly good at casual pickup games, but juggling secondary objectives, action progress, strands of fate/miracle dice/sorcery points, litanies/war hymns, etc. has made it hard for me to really relax in 9th. In 8th, I could sort of turn my brain off for part of the game if I wasn't especially invested in winning. In 9th, I find myself constantly worried that I'm forgetting about one of my major mechanics.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
2022/04/22 08:37:03
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
nou wrote: I see no cult in stating the obvious - for 30 years GW has been disastrously bad at providing "hassle free, balanced, competitive environment", but they have been great at providing a beer and pretzels hobby about little plastic space men.
Nah, if you sit down to have a casual beer and pretzels game of 40k one side is likely going to be blown out pretty hard because of 1st turn or army imbalance or whatever.
And rebalancing the game for GW means you've gone past beer & pretzels.
8th edition was actually pretty good at the beer & pretzels thing. If you avoided the one or two super-optimal things in your codex, you could generally toss together a casual game and have things be pretty close. That was pretty much the vibe of my gaming club's league night for a long time.
Disagree, hard disagree.
For starters 8th edition had multiple points and whilest at some it was pretty balanced cue castellan nerf, at other points it wasn't at all, cue chaos marines 2.0 vs SM 2.0, index era mortar conscript spam etc.
It very well mattered what codex you used and what your opponent was, even with the broader discrepancy acceptance inherent to casual matches.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2022/04/22 08:52:33
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
nou wrote: The first thing that wannabe competitve 40k player hears when he decides to enter this game is that this game lacks balance and depth and that GW is a scam that forces churn and burn for financial gain. It has been like this for decades. Why do people enter then if they know they won't like the experience? I don't think that "because it's the only game in town" is in any way a rational answer to that question.
I think most players don't get into 40k for the competitive side, at least initially. The vast majority that I've played with started out because they thought the models were cool, or they loved Dawn of War, or they read a BL novel and loved the background. At that point the popularity of the game works in its favour and the flaws are much less obvious for the most part. The problems really arise once a lot of people are already invested, though I've seen plenty of people collect 1500-2000 points, then drift away from the game, disillusioned with the poor balance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/22 08:52:42
2022/04/22 09:47:43
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
I see no cult in stating the obvious - for 30 years GW has been disastrously bad at providing "hassle free, balanced, competitive environment", but they have been great at providing a beer and pretzels hobby about little plastic space men. Shouting at the interwebz about "holding them accountable" does not, in any way, improve neither the state of the game, nor your personal, week by week gaming experience. So, entirely non-cultist realists take their own fun in their own hands instead of waiting for the reality that will most likely never come. People have been shouting at GW about bad balance for decades and it is currently absolutely clear, that even when GW finally listens, they are completely unable to deliver - 9th ed is by many, many players considered the worst it has ever been. And it is in part exactly because ITC has their hand in "balancing" the game and shifting focus to tournaments.
Realists, not cultists.
Beer and pretzel game don't have a initial buy in to the game at around a 1000$ for the avarge sized army. Now kill team that is a B&P game. Warcry too. But not w40k or AoS, and from stories I have been told neither was WFB. And just because a company does bad at something doesn't mean that the anwser to it is to be chill about it. Being chill about it, means that at some point the only people left playing will be those that don't care about the rules, the cost of an army etc. And truth be told, when you are in younger then 20, you don't want to hear that stuff gets better when you are 35.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2022/04/22 10:08:35
Subject: Re:10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Beer and pretzel game don't have a initial buy in to the game at around a 1000$ for the avarge sized army. Now kill team that is a B&P game. Warcry too. But not w40k or AoS, and from stories I have been told neither was WFB.
Beer and pretzels is about attitude, not wallet size. When it comes to 'initial buy in' I spent more on my xbox or my gaming laptop. 40k can absolutely be beer and pretzels and it doesnt need crazy investment to get started either.
And in fairness gw have always leaned towards 'pushing dudes round a table', having a couple of beers and catching up with friends as the focus, rather than treating each and every game as a life-and-death, cutthroat super-srs bizzness type thing where every millimetre is measured and called out, every word and inflrction argued over and every last nanogram of advantage eked out from the list.
You want to play that game - fine. I'll be here with my beer and pretzels. or custard creams in all likelihood.
And just because a company does bad at something doesn't mean that the anwser to it is to be chill about it. Being chill about it, means that at some point the only people left playing will be those that don't care about the rules, the cost of an army etc. And truth be told, when you are in younger then 20, you don't want to hear that stuff gets better when you are 35.
And Being super serious about it and doubling down and chasing that dragon is self destructive in the medium to long term; it really doesnt help either. Sometimes taking things easier is the better approach. A lot gets sacrificed on the alter of the competitive, in my mind that sacrifice isn't always worth it and the resultant 'elite level' game isn't always worth it either.
Honestly dialing back on the competitiveness and not chasing that meta was the best thing I ever did for my hobby. I got tired of being angry and frustrated about my hobby all the time. Now I actually enjoy it. And Just because im chilled out about it doesn't mean I don't put in work to ensure interesting and fair match ups.
And in fairness karol, when you're young, enjoy it. But the young never learn patience - as much as you or every other young person, including me once upon a time, doesnt want to hear it and claims to know better, sometimes things do take time and sometimes it does take investing time and effort in a hobby over a longer period to get the full value of it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/04/22 10:24:50
2022/04/22 10:29:59
Subject: Re:10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Beer and pretzels is about attitude, not wallet size. When it comes to 'initial buy in' I spent more on my xbox or my gaming laptop. 40k can absolutely be beer and pretzels and it doesnt need crazy investment to get started either.
And in fairness gw have always leaned towards 'pushing dudes round a table', having a couple of beers and catching up with friends as the focus, rather than treating each and every game as a life-and-death, cutthroat super-srs bizzness type thing where every millimetre is measured and called out, every word and inflrction argued over and every last nanogram of advantage eked out from the list.
You want to play that game - fine. I'll be here with my beer and pretzels. or custard creams in all likelihood.
You will not have a Beer and pretzel attituted to something that eats multiple years of you saving up. And it is awesome that you had enough money to buy an xbox and a gaming laptop and have w40k army on top of that. You know what I did? I took my confirmation money, the money I have been saving and decided/was convinced that it would be a good idea to start w40k as a hobby. Meanwhile my sister got a tablet. Guess who had more fun over the span of 3 years that was 8th, me or my sister.
And Being super serious about it and doubling down and chasing that dragon is self destructive in the medium to long term; it really doesnt help either.
Honestly dialing back on the competitiveness and not chasing that meta was the best thing I ever did for my hobby. I got tired of being angry and frustrated about my hobby all the time. Now I actually enjoy it. And Just because im chilled out about it doesn't mean I don't put in work to ensure interesting and fair match ups.
Maybe, but it is not a state created by the players. It is not the players that invalidated units, builds or entire armies, hey even entire games, if someone counts WFB. It is GW. And again, I can only envy you for the fact that to you, losing 2-3 years of hobby money leaves you chilled and means nothing to you. And there are no fair match ups in w40k, even mirror matchs gets decided by who ever goes first.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2022/04/22 10:42:57
Subject: Re:10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Beer and pretzels is about attitude, not wallet size. When it comes to 'initial buy in' I spent more on my xbox or my gaming laptop. 40k can absolutely be beer and pretzels and it doesnt need crazy investment to get started either.
And in fairness gw have always leaned towards 'pushing dudes round a table', having a couple of beers and catching up with friends as the focus, rather than treating each and every game as a life-and-death, cutthroat super-srs bizzness type thing where every millimetre is measured and called out, every word and inflrction argued over and every last nanogram of advantage eked out from the list.
You want to play that game - fine. I'll be here with my beer and pretzels. or custard creams in all likelihood.
You will not have a Beer and pretzel attituted to something that eats multiple years of you saving up. And it is awesome that you had enough money to buy an xbox and a gaming laptop and have w40k army on top of that. You know what I did? I took my confirmation money, the money I have been saving and decided/was convinced that it would be a good idea to start w40k as a hobby. Meanwhile my sister got a tablet. Guess who had more fun over the span of 3 years that was 8th, me or my sister.
And Being super serious about it and doubling down and chasing that dragon is self destructive in the medium to long term; it really doesnt help either.
Honestly dialing back on the competitiveness and not chasing that meta was the best thing I ever did for my hobby. I got tired of being angry and frustrated about my hobby all the time. Now I actually enjoy it. And Just because im chilled out about it doesn't mean I don't put in work to ensure interesting and fair match ups.
Maybe, but it is not a state created by the players. It is not the players that invalidated units, builds or entire armies, hey even entire games, if someone counts WFB. It is GW. And again, I can only envy you for the fact that to you, losing 2-3 years of hobby money leaves you chilled and means nothing to you. And there are no fair match ups in w40k, even mirror matchs gets decided by who ever goes first.
I love that you're the person Deadnight was explaining they used to be and not seeing that there was a long-term character progression you can follow as well to get into the zone where a hobby is for fun and is about what you make of it. Unlike your sisters tablet though I can assure you your purchases went up in value.
2022/04/22 10:45:28
Subject: Re:10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
You will not have a Beer and pretzel attituted to something that eats multiple years of you saving up. And it is awesome that you had enough money to buy an xbox and a gaming laptop and have w40k army on top of that. You know what I did? I took my confirmation money, the money I have been saving and decided/was convinced that it would be a good idea to start w40k as a hobby. Meanwhile my sister got a tablet. Guess who had more fun over the span of 3 years that was 8th, me or my sister.
.
Don't you think I was your age once upon a time and had to scrape pennies together to do things too?
And you miss my point - being super serious about something doesn't make that something better either.
Maybe, but it is not a state created by the players. It is not the players that invalidated units, builds or entire armies, hey even entire games, if someone counts WFB. It is GW.
No. Gw are not without fault but the players are the other side of the exact same coin. We absolutely have a role to play in the state of the game. Claiming otherwise is dishonesty.
I'm pretty sure if you had the likes of nou or his group to play with you'd have a completely different experience to the toxic cesspit you have.
. And again, I can only envy you for the fact that to you, losing 2-3 years of hobby money leaves you chilled and means nothing to you.
Who says it means nothing to me? I simply prefer doing something about it rather than sitting and stewing and fuming for three years about it and feeling sorry for myself and conplaining. I've burned out of this hobby twice karol, by chasing the competitive fantasy. I was the guy for years with the z-tier army against players that bludgeoned me week in week out - look up what tau were like in 4th. After wmh wasn't working for me, It was gw's beer and pretzels- the homebrewing and the grass leagues and the sprcialist games that got me back in and loving gaming and made me appreciate it again. And one thing I've learned is not to deliberately push the game to the point it breaks - true for every game but.. necessary for gws offerings. I've simply learned from my experiences and if something wasn't working anymore I'd either look to move on or change my perspective on it and approach what I was doing differently. I'm 'chilled' because I'm done with being angry and frustrated with a hobby that i enjoy. I've 'lost' nothing and gained a lot.
And in fairness karol, people have provided suggestions and advice to you got about 3 years regarding your situation. We have continually pointed out how toxic your environmtnt is, how its not like that everywhere. Siggestions have been made. You've taken none of it on board, you just stew
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/04/22 13:00:05
2022/04/22 10:47:27
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
If that is the case then w40k is only for two kind of people. The ones that can't stop things once they start doing them and the rich. And no fun or anything else matters.
I would like know, if someone ever went over after being in the hobby for 10 or 20 years, how many people stayed long enough to be 30+ and be chill and have fun, comparing to all those that started w40k in that span of time, got burned and never made it past one edition or even less.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2022/04/22 10:56:02
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
Karol wrote: If that is the case then w40k is only for two kind of people. The ones that can't stop things once they start doing them and the rich. And no fun or anything else matters.
This is ridiculous.
I have fun, karol. This might shock you. But I do, with the approach I take and the people I play with.
People can take breaks from things and go back later - life does happen, and no, you don't have to be rich to enjoy the hobby.
And you know what? You can take breaks from the hobby, you can be on an ordinary wage and you can still have fun.
I would like know, if someone ever went over after being in the hobby for 10 or 20 years, how many people stayed long enough to be 30+ and be chill and have fun, comparing to all those that started w40k in that span of time, got burned and never made it past one edition or even less.
Most of the people I played with fifteen years ago in uni are still playing and most of them started in 2nd edback in the 90s. In our group two of the older gents have been playing various wargames since the 70s.
Plenty people burn out - often by chasing the dragon. Maybe dialling it back is the key?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/22 10:58:43
2022/04/22 12:15:04
Subject: 10th will be based around Power Levels, and Points will be dropped
My collection stayed shelved through most of 6th and 7th edition. I started in 5th, played armies that were not great, got stomped and fell off. Through those years of not playing I collected a little bit, but not a whole lot... we had just had our two children through that time, and work was moving me around and all.
Few years later, right as 8th had come out, life took me back near a good friend of mine who also stopped playing over that span and we both jumped back in. Have been since.
Game has been both good and bad, especially for our armies, over that time... doesn't matter. To us, I think the experience is more important than the rules, and sometimes you have to find ways to make your own fun. Is it my job to balance GW's game? Nah, not my job, but like 90% of what they do is good enough. I mean, I guess we could just slap each other over the head with stupid rules that don't work and make the game miserable for both of us... or we can laugh at the problem, make an adjustment, and carry on while having fun.
That rule 0 thing has been in like every TTRPG book I've ever seen, and I think the biggest mistake GW made was not having it up front and clear in theirs. These games are intended for fun. If a rule prevents you from having fun, talk with your other players and institute a rule that enables you to do so... so long as the rule is agreeable for everyone. It isn't rocket science, and I'm sure the writers would prefer their players to play the game however they want to instead of suffering under the weight of an oppressive system.
Same thing with supplements. No one says you have to play all those rules. No one demands you have to go through 5 books an edition. I typically review what's coming out (read as: typically I don't preorder supplements) and decide if I want it or not. Just because there's two supplements for the Sororitas out doesn't mean I want them, I play Valorous Heart... just saved $100 and made my books and tanks bag a lot lighter to lug around.
"Keeping current", "balance", "meta"... man, these are words that kind of put me off. It just shows a headspace that's probably expecting something out of the game I'm not. Not everything needs a house rule to be fun. I've actually seen not much in 9th requiring house rules outside of "don't be that guy". Though my friends to keep on me about putting together a Canoness in Paragon Warsuit dataslate to lead my Crusade. I'll break down and do it eventually, haha.
Hate to be a bear here, but if you're not having fun... why are you still doing this? The concept of spending 1000s of whatever your currency is to sit around and be bored and frustrated sounds really close to torture. If you'd have more fun with a tablet... stop buying plastic and books and get a tablet. You made the mistake, you don't have to continue to live with it. Don't think about what you lost via collecting in the past, that money and time is gone. But don't keep torturing yourself in the future... have the courage to know when enough is enough.
or custard creams in all likelihood.