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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

you refuse to use technology

Expecting people to buy a ~200 dollar smart phone to play a game where you have to buy 55 dollar books on a regularly basis with expensive models is a bit much, don't you think?

Talk about price of entry.

You are expected to have a smartphone anyways, not to buy one for 40k. If you don't have one, you are part of a rapidly shrinking (literally dying) niche group that will be treated as second class customer, if not completely ignored by companies for most non-essential things anyways.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
3) If we see nasty imbalances, like 2500 points vs 1800 points at 100PL... yeah, laugh about it and adjust.

Pure Scions can get pretty ridiculous with PL. For 5 PL a Scion squad can have 10 models, a voxcaster, a powerfist, 4 plasma guns and 1 plasma pistol. Which works out to about 145 points. Take 18 squads of them across 3 battalions, that's 2610 points. Then there's the required characters as well. You're looking at around 300 points in characters for the remaining PL.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They REALLY are the same thing though. If you're not expecting your opponent to pop a -1 to hit on an important unit, that's you being a bad player.

If you have to use heuristics like 'assume your opponent can do something when you shoot' in lieu of actually knowing the rules your opponent could use, then there's a problem.

Especially when that heuristic could trip you up against any faction that can't pop -1s at will.

Did I get Gotcha'd though, yes or no?

If you're assuming that everyone can pop a -1 at will because you don't actually know the rules, then as soon as you make a tactically disadvantageous decision because you didn't know the enemy doesn't have such an ability, yeah, you got gotcha'd.

A 'gotcha' represents your opponent's capabilities differing from your expectation, because the game is too complicated for you to actually know their full capabilities ahead of time. It's getting caught out by rules you didn't know. Thinking an enemy has a capability and planning and acting around that assumption, only to find that they don't have that capability after all, is annoying for all the same reasons as getting surprised by a stratagem.

But I mean, at a fundamental level, the idea that you'll never feel surprised or caught out as long as you assume your opponent has an ability to cause problems for you is pretty nonsense to begin with. There are the Transhumans and -1-to-hits that you might see coming, but lots of bespoke abilities you might not.

Dudeface wrote:


Pfft stop being a filthy casual, don't you own every codex and spend an hour a day on wahapedia revising all the rules and strars for the game?!

Can attest I've forgotten to use a unit in some phases, usually because I'm having a chat or a drink or whatever with my opponent the same time as playing, enjoying myself rather than being some strat knowledge hustler.

The worst part is that i actually do know most of the gotchas and i do spend a ridiculous amount of time reading up on various faction or just perusing through wahapedia. I just don't think it should be a necessity when the whole game has no hidden information. 90% of strats are useless, its the 10% that get you but you still gotta look through 100% of them.

I've taken a habit of asking the typical stuff to my Opponent nowadays "Can your army intercept deepstrikes/redeploy/feth with charges/transhuman".

It's just insane to me that 40k is a bigger mental load than Infinity


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 Jidmah wrote:


That's why most of us dirty casuals play the way Saturmorn Carvilli outlined above. Agree with your opponent to not ruin each other's games with gotchas and allow takebacks when someone runs into a gotcha anyways.

Which is what my playgroup does too. I'm saying the concept is problematic. Of course you can (and should) adapt how you approach the game to make it more enjoyable


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Honestly, when comparing Infinity's "datasheet" design to 40k's it's absolutely ridiculous how bad 40k's are.



Special skills are the same for every army and if you have the datasheet + know the core actions a unit can take, you know everything the unit can do at a glance.

Their skills also use variables to modify them Forward Deployment can be 4" or 8", mimetism -3 or -6, even Terrain (total) can become Terrain(desert/mountain/zero-g).

On top of all that, you can simply click on the skills to be redirected to the wiki which explains all the rules with examples if there is any ambiguity.

and guess what, ALL of that is 100% free. To play infinity you only need to buy your models, not a single rule.

At this point i can only assume the crazy amount of rules sources is deliberate and not just to sell more books, though that is certainly part of it. Its almost like the free to play games way of confusing people into spending more money...but this isnt a free to play game.

It will be a quit moment for many but this thread shows that some people boost their self esteem by staying on top of it unlike those filthy scrubs.

Now do the part where for Infinity, that unit actually has a limited lifespan because once the subfaction it's a part of gets shelved? There will not be any updating of it aside from a "See ya!" pass while the fans constantly clamor that "IT'LL BE BACK! YOU'LL SEE!" or "YOU CAN STILL PLAY WITH THEM!".


Using that mess of a game and its constant creeping bloat is disingenuous. And yeah, the rules might be free...but the lore sure as hell isn't.
Oh! And if you want to talk about expensive games? Infinity's your jam! It's a perfect example of what everyone here loves to cry about with the "things being locked in boxes". Whole profiles are basically considered an actual monetary tax for "the good stuff".

Its always been that way. There have been many threads on many forums over the past 20 odd years where people have boasted that rules mastery is a player skill. There are people that I know in the tournament scene (back in the day) that drilled with flash cards on rules daily.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Now do the part where for Infinity, that unit actually has a limited lifespan because once the subfaction it's a part of gets shelved? There will not be any updating of it aside from a "See ya!" pass while the fans constantly clamor that "IT'LL BE BACK! YOU'LL SEE!" or "YOU CAN STILL PLAY WITH THEM!".

Thats not true tho? ALL factions just got a pretty big update with the new fireteam rules. And a faction being out of production doesn't mean its gonna be bad/unplayable at all (Just look at tohaa)


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 Kanluwen wrote:


Using that mess of a game and its constant creeping bloat is disingenuous. And yeah, the rules might be free...but the lore sure as hell isn't.
Oh! And if you want to talk about expensive games? Infinity's your jam! It's a perfect example of what everyone here loves to cry about with the "things being locked in boxes". Whole profiles are basically considered an actual monetary tax for "the good stuff".

Uhh what? Creeping bloat?
Expensive? I can get an army for 200-300$ and its gonna be the strong build with extra models too.
What "things being locked in boxes" are you referring to? Specific loadouts?

as for the Lore not being free.. Ok? i don't mind paying for stuff that doesn't affect the tabletop

Dai wrote:
At this point i can only assume the crazy amount of rules sources is deliberate and not just to sell more books, though that is certainly part of it. Its almost like the free to play games way of confusing people into spending more money...but this isnt a free to play game.

It will be a quit moment for many but this thread shows that some people boost their self esteem by staying on top of it unlike those filthy scrubs.

I'm convinced GW is pumping out books and will continue to do so for two key reasons...
1. They're highly profitable and a guaranteed sale to the now teeming masses of highly competitive tourney-gakkers who must have to have all the rules and seasonal mission packs to stay relevant and competitive.
2. To make up for decreasing model sales due to 3D printing. I do not believe that 3D printing has significantly hurt GW, but I think it's done enough for them to notice and react.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Now do the part where for Infinity, that unit actually has a limited lifespan because once the subfaction it's a part of gets shelved? There will not be any updating of it aside from a "See ya!" pass while the fans constantly clamor that "IT'LL BE BACK! YOU'LL SEE!" or "YOU CAN STILL PLAY WITH THEM!".

Thats not true tho? ALL factions just got a pretty big update with the new fireteam rules.

Yes, and the factions with the newest toys take best advantage of that. So what?

And a faction being out of production doesn't mean its gonna be bad/unplayable at all (Just look at tohaa)

It also doesn't mean that those supposed "USRs" are actually going to show up when they (maybe) get rotated back in nor are you really refuting what I said.

Infinity is the biggest example of a game built off bloat and invalidation imaginable, propped up by people who just comment about "proxying" or "split-boxing".

Uhh what? Creeping bloat?

Compare the Auxilia to similarly designed units and tell me there's a reason why.

Expensive? I can get an army for 200-300$ and its gonna be the strong build with extra models too.

Yeah, and then next ITS season you're having to chase the dragon again.

What "things being locked in boxes" are you referring to? Specific loadouts?

Specific loadouts and specific models. Oh, and specific items in general. Because CB claims to have SKU bloat but also won't ever put a single bloody extra arm set for each model into their boxed sets.

as for the Lore not being free.. Ok? i don't mind paying for stuff that doesn't affect the tabletop

Yeah, because you're not interested in the setting.

Just like I'm not interested in paying for rules changes to cover tourney scrubs.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yes, and the factions with the newest toys take best advantage of that. So what?

If at the end the balance is 45-55, is that really an issue? No faction is left in the dark balance wise, and were comparing it to fething 40k lmao. NCA players are clearly in a better spot than stuff with no 9th codex (guard, csm) and even stuff WITH codexes ( Sisters, Orks)

 Kanluwen wrote:


It also doesn't mean that those supposed "USRs" are actually going to show up when they (maybe) get rotated back in nor are you really refuting what I said.

What the feth are you talking about? That Tohaa will lose rules? Gain new ones?

 Kanluwen wrote:


Infinity is the biggest example of a game built off bloat and invalidation imaginable, propped up by people who just comment about "proxying" or "split-boxing".

It's not the community that recommends proxying, its the devs themselves.


Gonna stop splitting posts because its a pain (just saw you added stuff in an edit)

Auxilias are one of the best models in all of Pano, and theyre OLD and OOP. I fething wish other factions had access to them


Chasing the dragon? Lists didnt really change much between its 12 and its 13, just get a few bikes and thats it (getting 2 boxes of bikers was cheaper than getting a single troop box from GW)

Specific loadouts being locked in boxes i can agree. But again : CB ENCOURAGES PROXYING. And also, these boxes are still cheaper than troop boxes from 40k.

Codexes in 40k should be Lore Only, why am i paying for a book with half of its contents about lore?
Paying for which rules changes that cover tourney scrubs exactly?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yes, and the factions with the newest toys take best advantage of that. So what?

If at the end the balance is 45-55, is that really an issue? No faction is left in the dark balance wise, and were comparing it to fething 40k lmao. NCA players are clearly in a better spot than stuff with no 9th codex (guard, csm) and even stuff WITH codexes ( Sisters, Orks)

Are they really though?

Are you really in a better spot if there's one viable build vs no viable build?

Cause frankly, I consider both to be trash.

 Kanluwen wrote:


It also doesn't mean that those supposed "USRs" are actually going to show up when they (maybe) get rotated back in nor are you really refuting what I said.

What the feth are you talking about? That Tohaa will lose rules? Gain new ones?

If you don't know "what the feth I'm talking about", then you haven't actually been paying attention at all to Infinity. When new rules come out, they tend to be stuck on the newest stuff and nothing gets backdated even if it would y'know make sense.

But I mean, you should know that right?
Hexas, the literal counterintelligence branch of PanO, don't have the counterintelligence rule...seems totally legit, amirite?

 Kanluwen wrote:


Infinity is the biggest example of a game built off bloat and invalidation imaginable, propped up by people who just comment about "proxying" or "split-boxing".

It's not the community that recommends proxying, its the devs themselves.

Nah. It started with the community. Devs always said to convert.

You're right

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
and guess what, ALL of that is 100% free. To play infinity you only need to buy your models, not a single rule.

Sadly, I also need to buy people to play infinity with me

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

you refuse to use technology

Expecting people to buy a ~200 dollar smart phone to play a game where you have to buy 55 dollar books on a regularly basis with expensive models is a bit much, don't you think?

Talk about price of entry.

You can also use that computer at home and just write down the strats too.

Also at this point you should have a smart phone. My grandparents even have them and they're older than 65 for reference. Seriously, the demographic of people that don't own a laptop or smart phone aren't one to be concerned about.

 Jidmah wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
and guess what, ALL of that is 100% free. To play infinity you only need to buy your models, not a single rule.

Sadly, I also need to buy people to play infinity with me

which loops back to the fact that GW is coasting on its own inertia because its THE wargame that everyone is exposed to and has playgroups everywhere.

(TTS is magical for infinity tho)

 Kanluwen wrote:
Now do the part where for Infinity, that unit actually has a limited lifespan because once the subfaction it's a part of gets shelved? There will not be any updating of it aside from a "See ya!" pass while the fans constantly clamor that "IT'LL BE BACK! YOU'LL SEE!" or "YOU CAN STILL PLAY WITH THEM!".

Thank goodness 40k would never do something like that.

How's Legends going, btw?

Also, anyone know where I can find the 9th edition rules for Vect, Lady Malys, Baron Sathonix, Duke Sliscus and Kheradruakh the Decapitator? They must exist because no GW unit has ever had a limited lifespan. I just can't seem to find them in the DE codex.

 vipoid wrote:


Thank goodness 40k would never do something like that.

How's Legends going, btw?

Also, anyone know where I can find the 9th edition rules for Vect, Lady Malys, Baron Sathonix, Duke Sliscus and Kheradruakh the Decapitator? They must exist because no GW unit has ever had a limited lifespan. I just can't seem to find them in the DE codex.

just to be clear : the units he's referring to are still 100% in the game, none of that "you can technically play with legends but because tournaments wont, nobody will" BS

I am an owner of two twin auto canon dreadnoughts and a GK psycanaon one. Ain't very happy about the fact that both options are gone from the codex.

Karol wrote:
I am an owner of two twin auto canon dreadnoughts and a GK psycanaon one. Ain't very happy about the fact that both options are gone from the codex.

Which wouldnt happen in Infinity (which is what we're discussing).

Legends was a mistake.
No model, no rule was a mistake.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

(TTS is magical for infinity tho)

TTS does nothing for anyone actually liking the models though.


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vipoid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Now do the part where for Infinity, that unit actually has a limited lifespan because once the subfaction it's a part of gets shelved? There will not be any updating of it aside from a "See ya!" pass while the fans constantly clamor that "IT'LL BE BACK! YOU'LL SEE!" or "YOU CAN STILL PLAY WITH THEM!".

Thank goodness 40k would never do something like that.

Never said they don't. Just that it's garbage to pretend that Infinity won't.

How's Legends going, btw?

Great, provided you're actually playing with people who like fun and not the tourney tryhards.

Also, anyone know where I can find the 9th edition rules for Vect, Lady Malys, Baron Sathonix, Duke Sliscus and Kheradruakh the Decapitator? They must exist because no GW unit has ever had a limited lifespan. I just can't seem to find them in the DE codex.

Probably the same place you can find the 7E rules for them, I'm sure.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
just to be clear : the units he's referring to are still 100% in the game, none of that "you can technically play with legends but because tournaments wont, nobody will" BS

Well, other than the profiles that have been ditched certainly.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Which wouldnt happen in Infinity (which is what we're discussing).

It absolutely has and likely will again.

Legends was a mistake.

No, matched play was the mistake.

No model, no rule was a mistake.

Ehhh...I'm torn on this one. I'm inclined to agree it was a mistake but at the same time, not everything that lost rules was really something that should have persisted.

No, matched play was the mistake.

That would leave narrative and open as the only two formats left. There isn't enough people that like and want to play either or both of those to support the game. Without matched play the game would be dead.

Splitting the game into three "parts" was the mistake. There was nothing wrong with the old system, that worked fine for years.

 Jidmah wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

you refuse to use technology

Expecting people to buy a ~200 dollar smart phone to play a game where you have to buy 55 dollar books on a regularly basis with expensive models is a bit much, don't you think?

Talk about price of entry.

You are expected to have a smartphone anyways, not to buy one for 40k. If you don't have one, you are part of a rapidly shrinking (literally dying) niche group that will be treated as second class customer, if not completely ignored by companies for most non-essential things anyways.

I would guess that the percent of GW models purchased by people who don't own smartphones is near 0.

Karol wrote:

No, matched play was the mistake.

That would leave narrative and open as the only two formats left. There isn't enough people that like and want to play either or both of those to support the game. Without matched play the game would be dead.

Yet oddly the game, and tournies, had persisted for about 30 years prior to GW labeling things Matched/Narrative/Open.....
Something tells me that there's plenty of people who'd still be playing 40k.

As for your Dreadnought problem? What you want exists in Legends.

The name is unimportant, the way the game is played and what rules it has is. Any system that requires the other person to okey stuff on the go, is going to be extremly dependent on opponents played. A more riggied and clear rules system is less prone to such problems. Plus GW with its low number of staff and time to test stuff, invests time in to narrative and open play, when people that play those seem to be either unhappy about them or modified those existing anyway. It would be much better for either side playing the game, if GW focused on matched play and leave other way of play to modifications done by the players, as they do those anyway on their own.
yes and people say no to legends.

TBH, all this talk of smartphones is reminding me of the (well-deserved) gak Blizzard got for their "out-of-season April Fool's joke" of that mobile Diablo game. The reason "Don't you all have smartphones?" got clowned on wasn't that smartphones are ubiquitous, it was that people didn't want to play Diablo on their phones. In this case, it's even worse - Waha is used not because GW is putting it out as a patch for the proliferation of rule sources, Waha got big because GW didn't do something similar.

 waefre_1 wrote:
TBH, all this talk of smartphones is reminding me of the (well-deserved) gak Blizzard got for their "out-of-season April Fool's joke" of that mobile Diablo game. The reason "Don't you all have smartphones?" got clowned on wasn't that smartphones are ubiquitous, it was that people didn't want to play Diablo on their phones. In this case, it's even worse - Waha is used not because GW is putting it out as a patch for the proliferation of rule sources, Waha got big because GW didn't do something similar.

I mean, GW did try and make an app.. that doesnt work... and you gotta pay for... and then buy codexes to have your rules in it...

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

I mean, GW did try and make an app.. that doesnt work... and you gotta pay for...

The app is free, you pay for contents.

You're not wrong about the quality of it though.

and then buy codexes to have your rules in it...

I'm old enough to remember when people complained that buying a physical product didn't also give them a digital copy.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

I mean, GW did try and make an app.. that doesnt work... and you gotta pay for...

The app is free, you pay for contents.

So no it isn't free