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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Sim-Life wrote:
I do admire GWs brazen "We fixed the lethality. Only for the PC factions though, NPC factions can get fethed."


I'm uncertain if this will have knock on effects for other armies.

People already stack high AP. Incentivizing higher ROF against half the armies means less AP for everyone else do deal with.

It's kind of like how increasing the cost for one army defacto buffs all other armies against it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 kirotheavenger wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:

it is an abstract game

The thing is, it kinda isn't.
They go into excruciating detail to make sure everything is represented on the table. Down a grot with a pistol hanging out the side of a buggy.
They're trying to have a highly representative game mixed with these weird abstract mechanics and it's a horribly poisonous soup.


Thank you.

If you're going to make a game where you roll to see if a shot hits, then roll to see if that shot was damaging, then roll to see if it actually beat armor, then take individual casualties on a target unit, there is no place for highly abstract 'game-y' mechanics, and certainly not for inconsistent application such that the most basic infantry in the game can auto-wound anything in the game on a 6 but elite special forces operators can't because reasons.

So many things they could have done to give Guard a leg up, but they went with one that makes zero sense from any sort of internal consistency or lore standpoint.

   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 catbarf wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:

it is an abstract game

The thing is, it kinda isn't.
They go into excruciating detail to make sure everything is represented on the table. Down a grot with a pistol hanging out the side of a buggy.
They're trying to have a highly representative game mixed with these weird abstract mechanics and it's a horribly poisonous soup.


Thank you.

If you're going to make a game where you roll to see if a shot hits, then roll to see if that shot was damaging, then roll to see if it actually beat armor, then take individual casualties on a target unit, there is no place for highly abstract 'game-y' mechanics, and certainly not for inconsistent application such that the most basic infantry in the game can auto-wound anything in the game on a 6 but elite special forces operators can't because reasons.

So many things they could have done to give Guard a leg up, but they went with one that makes zero sense from any sort of internal consistency or lore standpoint.


I agree that it's absolutely asinine and I don't even give a feth about the lore part.

So many changes in the datasheet make it obvious GW has no idea how this game works.


 
   
Made in pl
Wicked Warp Spider





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Only problem now is you can't artificially delay their release "due to COVID" or "Brexit" since the world has had 3 years to get that under control. Well except for the British, but they think Boris Johnson is still a capable leader of a nation, so I guess they can get a pass. They did it to themselves.

Oh wait, we now have WW3 for them to say is hurting shipping.


While I agree 100% that 9th is a hilariously bad game design and GW is trying to put out a dumpster fire with a truckload of gasoline, you should really look closer at how China are currently completely fethed up by Covid. You can't get anything out of China easily, container prices are through the roof and delays are counted in months. I wait for second wave of Etherfields kickstarter and it gets delayed and delayed again - either because print shops get closed due to lockdowns, or there are no containers to hunt for - in this particular case they managed to secure ones for some areas of the world but still wait for any free ones to Poland. And their whole Kickstarter profit has been eaten by print/shipping price hikes.

Ever wondered, why many of GW products now ship in generic white boxes?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






I genuinely wonder if a better fix would have been simply "Reduce the AP of ALL weapons by 1."


nou wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Only problem now is you can't artificially delay their release "due to COVID" or "Brexit" since the world has had 3 years to get that under control. Well except for the British, but they think Boris Johnson is still a capable leader of a nation, so I guess they can get a pass. They did it to themselves.

Oh wait, we now have WW3 for them to say is hurting shipping.


While I agree 100% that 9th is a hilariously bad game design and GW is trying to put out a dumpster fire with a truckload of gasoline, you should really look closer at how China are currently completely fethed up by Covid. You can't get anything out of China easily, container prices are through the roof and delays are counted in months. I wait for second wave of Etherfields kickstarter and it gets delayed and delayed again - either because print shops get closed due to lockdowns, or there are no containers to hunt for - in this particular case they managed to secure ones for some areas of the world but still wait for any free ones to Poland. And their whole Kickstarter profit has been eaten by print/shipping price hikes.

Ever wondered, why many of GW products now ship in generic white boxes?
Stop making things in China. For all sorts of reasons which I won't get into here, because this isn't the place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/14 18:14:37


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

Insectum7 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Guardsmen getting auto wound on 6s is the dumbest, least internally consistent, least fluff-based balance decision I've seen this edition. Maybe that sounds dramatic, but when someone decides that Guardsmen with lasguns should be better at killing tanks than Intercessors, it's very clear that the guys writing the rules are trying to balance tournament win rates without regard for the verisimilitude or even just matching the fluff.

Two Infantry Squads rapid firing with FRFSRF can just about bracket a Leman Russ. What the feth?
This 1000%

They're too far into pure game design thinking and pulling further and further away from "representational" design thinking. It's really bad.

We were literally just discussing this last night @ my FLGS & consensus agrees
H.B.M.C. wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Two Infantry Squads rapid firing with FRFSRF can just about bracket a Leman Russ. What the feth?
Well allow me to retort.

*clears throat*

They're still just Damage 1.

Or, perhaps even:

The target still gets their save!

These are two "arguments" I've seen people put forward. Impressive.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
it is an abstract game
Come on dude. There's "abstraction" and then there's "Lasguns auto-wounding a Warlord Titan on a 6".


But the humble Guardsmen needs to feel like they could take down a titan...which is just dumb. There should be things that are impervious to light weaponry. I'd rather them get a +1 to hit titanic stuff, cuz ya know it's freakin huge. But auto-wounding something T8/9 with S3 is a bit too far.
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 Insectum7 wrote:
I genuinely wonder if a better fix would have been simply "Reduce the AP of ALL weapons by 1."


yes
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Two Infantry Squads rapid firing with FRFSRF can just about bracket a Leman Russ. What the feth?
Well allow me to retort.

*clears throat*

They're still just Damage 1.

Or, perhaps even:

The target still gets their save!

These are two "arguments" I've seen people put forward. Impressive.



Oh no! People are thinking about it!

So you're telling me that 120 points plus an HQ ( so about 155 ) does 6 wounds to a 150 point unit when they're within 12" of it. Oh no. The game is over. What Ever Will We Do? Surely no one has figured out how to kill T3 5+ before they get within 12". Dooooom.
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I genuinely wonder if a better fix would have been simply "Reduce the AP of ALL weapons by 1."


yes


Certainly would have been better than 'reduce the AP of all weapons by 1...unless you're a GOOD sisters of battle unit.'


 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Two Infantry Squads rapid firing with FRFSRF can just about bracket a Leman Russ. What the feth?
Well allow me to retort.

*clears throat*

They're still just Damage 1.

Or, perhaps even:

The target still gets their save!

These are two "arguments" I've seen people put forward. Impressive.



Oh no! People are thinking about it!

So you're telling me that 120 points plus an HQ ( so about 155 ) does 6 wounds to a 150 point unit when they're within 12" of it. Oh no. The game is over. What Ever Will We Do? Surely no one has figured out how to kill T3 5+ before they get within 12". Dooooom.

It's not concerns about whether or not that's gonna take over the competitive tournament scene.

It's the idea that they can is completely anathema to any idea of similitude that might be left.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 G00fySmiley wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Two Infantry Squads rapid firing with FRFSRF can just about bracket a Leman Russ. What the feth?
Well allow me to retort.

*clears throat*

They're still just Damage 1.

Or, perhaps even:

The target still gets their save!

These are two "arguments" I've seen people put forward. Impressive.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
it is an abstract game
Come on dude. There's "abstraction" and then there's "Lasguns auto-wounding a Warlord Titan on a 6".



lasguns on a titan is another one of those for the game to work part. my preferred solution is no lord of war units in games under 2001 points, but that breaks a codex out. If the guard player forgets to bring a shadowsword do they just have to auto lose to an titan/knight list? One of the things that brough on all these 6's always wound rules were those armies and issues where the game was breaking down and an army could lose in the list phase before putting a model down. do you remember the days of 3 wraighknights and eldar flyers being unbillable for a lot of codexes?


You realize right if you lose to titan you are literally worst 40k player ever? Titan is auto lose...you need to actively make sure you don"' score vp to vose. You literally need to move away from objectives. Literally refuse to score secondaries. and knights are hardly bogeyman. You don't need shadowsword.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh no! People are thinking about it!

So you're telling me that 120 points plus an HQ ( so about 155 ) does 6 wounds to a 150 point unit when they're within 12" of it. Oh no. The game is over. What Ever Will We Do? Surely no one has figured out how to kill T3 5+ before they get within 12". Dooooom.


I'm not sure if the angle you're taking is 'basic Guardsmen getting nearly 50% return against their least optimal target type is fine' or 'Leman Russes actually should be optimal targets for Guardsmen' but either way I would encourage you to sit down and have a long think about whether this is a good thing rather than continue to defend the trench you've dug.

   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 catbarf wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh no! People are thinking about it!

So you're telling me that 120 points plus an HQ ( so about 155 ) does 6 wounds to a 150 point unit when they're within 12" of it. Oh no. The game is over. What Ever Will We Do? Surely no one has figured out how to kill T3 5+ before they get within 12". Dooooom.


I'm not sure if the angle you're taking is 'basic Guardsmen getting nearly 50% return against their least optimal target type is fine' or 'Leman Russes actually should be optimal targets for Guardsmen' but either way I would encourage you to sit down and have a long think about whether this is a good thing rather than continue to defend the trench you've dug.


Pretty much, my thing is, we should not be in a position where a las gun is even able to wound a tank.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





It was at least some of you guys who removed templates and the old s/t/Av system.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





The usual dislikes 40k posters are doomposting, the ones who like it continue on. Dakka continues as usual really. New topic to argue over.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/14 18:53:05


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





All this shows , is that i did the right choice to just go back to older editions.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Daedalus81 wrote:

Oh no! People are thinking about it!

So you're telling me that 120 points plus an HQ ( so about 155 ) does 6 wounds to a 150 point unit when they're within 12" of it. Oh no. The game is over. What Ever Will We Do? Surely no one has figured out how to kill T3 5+ before they get within 12". Dooooom.

Maybe you can explain why a squad of Guardsmen with Lasguns are better at tank killing than a squad of DEVASTATORS WITH LASCANNONS and why that's good for the game.

4x.666x.666x.666x3.5= 4.1

Heck, the 6 wounds is what 2 Multimeltas average within 12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The usual dislikes 40k posters are doomposting, the ones who like it continue on. Dakka continues as usual really. New topic to argue over.
Go on. Defend the above situation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/14 18:58:12


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk




UK

The AP change is the wrong solution for supposed AP bloat.

For one, ap0 is currently worthless in the game because no matter how much people want to be down on Marine winrates, 3+ armour saves are everywhere in the game and they become 2+ in cover. In that sort of game ap0 has no place unless it can mass shots to an absurd degree. All this change does is make ap1 act like ap0 so all those weapons and units that saw some improvements with their 9th codexes are going back on the shelf. This change lessens unit and list variety and won't massively increase Marine resilience because people will go back to teching hard into anti-Marine killing weaponry. Gauss Flayers were already not in a great spot compared to Reapers but now the comparison is even more laughable. Guardian units in CWE got a boost and had potential in the 9th book but now they're back to the bad old days of 8th where that ap0 Shuriken catapult made them dead weight. If anything I'll be more inclined to take specific anti-Marine weaponry in even my casual CWE lists because why run the risk of running a unit like Guardians or Windriders that are dangerously close to being worthless in that match-up? The Marine player could have just been facing some AP1 D1 weaponry but now I hope they enjoy massed AP3-4 D2-3 instead because it's weapon statlines that I know will actually do something.

At the end of the day it's better for the overall health of the game in terms of faction and unit variety to have some AP, at least within the current rules system (if cover rules get changed things might be different).

What the actual issues with AP bloat were the easy stacking of additional modifiers that could be far too common and far too widespread. Interestingly Marines are basically why we have this AP bloat in the first place; they started it with doctrines and statline improvements and their ubiquitous nature means that a lot of units in a lot of armies are useless against them if they don't have at least a little armour piercing capability, thereby necessitating a need to improve these units' weapons. Marines themselves will suffer from this as an entire armywide special rule of there's is now functionally worthless in the mirror match-up, or vs CSM or vs Sisters and already struggling units like both brands of Intercessors have their fancy AP1 weaponry negated.

The Mont'ka change was funnily enough the sort of solution that was needed; an army that got a lot of weapons AP improved with its codex (good!) also had an easy way to stack even more modifiers on top of that leading to absurdity of AFP's with AP2 (bad!). Why this works is that it gets to the core of the actual issue unlike Armour of Contempt or other AP bonus abilities that still leave a "lethality problem" existing within the game for factions that are not LSM, CSM or SoB.

Nazi punks feth off 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





Those devastators also don’t fall to a slight breeze. Guardsmen hordes aren’t going to be the problem, it’s gonna be ones camping in the back with free lascannon/snipers and obscured artillery now at a 2+ save and -1 to hit from non los stuff.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
It was at least some of you guys who removed templates and the old s/t/Av system.


Both things can be bad. The old S/T system was just the current one but dumber, Templates were stupid and finicky and created tons of arguments, and the old AV system amounted to little more than 'if targeted, vehicles explode'.



 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Those devastators also don’t fall to a slight breeze. Guardsmen hordes aren’t going to be the problem, it’s gonna be ones camping in the back with free lascannon/snipers and obscured artillery now at a 2+ save and -1 to hit from non los stuff.
That rationalization falls far short.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Insectum7 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Guardsmen getting auto wound on 6s is the dumbest, least internally consistent, least fluff-based balance decision I've seen this edition. Maybe that sounds dramatic, but when someone decides that Guardsmen with lasguns should be better at killing tanks than Intercessors, it's very clear that the guys writing the rules are trying to balance tournament win rates without regard for the verisimilitude or even just matching the fluff.

Two Infantry Squads rapid firing with FRFSRF can just about bracket a Leman Russ. What the feth?
This 1000%

They're too far into pure game design thinking and pulling further and further away from "representational" design thinking. It's really bad.

Yeah, as someone who doesn’t really give a crap about win rates or metas or whatev, this really beefs it from a “Roleplay that gak” perspective for me. A really horrible, inelegant bit of rules patching. Hate it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/14 19:05:45


 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





 Insectum7 wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Those devastators also don’t fall to a slight breeze. Guardsmen hordes aren’t going to be the problem, it’s gonna be ones camping in the back with free lascannon/snipers and obscured artillery now at a 2+ save and -1 to hit from non los stuff.
That rationalization falls far short.



Considering that a big blob of ork boyz can be wiped by most lists nowadays, what’s going to make guardsmen any better at surviving.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Insectum7 wrote:
Maybe you can explain why a squad of Guardsmen with Lasguns are better at tank killing than a squad of DEVASTATORS WITH LASCANNONS and why that's good for the game.

4x.666x.666x.666x3.5= 4.1

Heck, the 6 wounds is what 2 Multimeltas average within 12".


In fairness a squad of Guardsmen FRFSRFing within 12" averages about 3 wounds. So the Devastators do about 33% more damage.

Which is still fething stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Those devastators also don’t fall to a slight breeze. Guardsmen hordes aren’t going to be the problem, it’s gonna be ones camping in the back with free lascannon/snipers and obscured artillery now at a 2+ save and -1 to hit from non los stuff.
That rationalization falls far short.



Considering that a big blob of ork boyz can be wiped by most lists nowadays, what’s going to make guardsmen any better at surviving.


We're not talking about practical tournament list composition.

We're talking about the fact that a squad of Guardsmen with flashlights and a ubiquitous order are nearly as good at anti-tank duty as a squad of Devastators loaded up with lascannons.

It doesn't matter how they compare in durability; they should not be that similar in raw firepower.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/14 19:11:20


   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 catbarf wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Maybe you can explain why a squad of Guardsmen with Lasguns are better at tank killing than a squad of DEVASTATORS WITH LASCANNONS and why that's good for the game.

4x.666x.666x.666x3.5= 4.1

Heck, the 6 wounds is what 2 Multimeltas average within 12".


In fairness a squad of Guardsmen FRFSRFing within 12" averages about 3 wounds. So the Devastators do about 33% more damage.

Which is still fething stupid.
Oh I see, Daeds math was for 20 Guardsmen.

Yup, still dumb!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tinfoil Hat Time!!

10th is just around the corner and they want to make 9th look as bad as possible so 10th is hailed as the second coming!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/14 19:14:04


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





And ork nobz are able to… and my alpha can X in the lore…
The game is just about pure mechanical stuff at this point.
Have you also considered that lascannons just aren’t too great?
Run the numbers on some anti tank that’s actually good.
Guardsman range also caps out at around 24 inches, I can think of a lot of vehicle weapons that can stay well outside of that range.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
And ork nobz are able to… and my alpha can X in the lore…
The game is just about pure mechanical stuff at this point.
Have you also considered that lascannons just aren’t too great?
Run the numbers on some anti tank that’s actually good.
Guardsman range also caps out at around 24 inches, I can think of a lot of vehicle weapons that can stay well outside of that range.
A squad of Guardsmen with Lasguns does as much damage as a Marine wielded Multimelta.

That explains all the news stories I've heard recently abou Ukranians defeating Russian tanks by running up to them with assault rufles. . .

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

 Insectum7 wrote:

That explains all the news stories I've heard recently abou Ukranians defeating Russian tanks by running up to them with assault rufles. . .


Right....
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




I've already said, I will say it once again.

Imperial Guard is utter dogshit. It is the worst army in the game by far, right now. Until they get a proper Codex, they need some ridiculous, overpowered buffs, to simply exist as an army to compensate with how garbage their 8th Codex is.

This is why Imperial Guard gets to ignore the new Indirect Fire Weapons. This is also why they get a ridiculous auto-wound on 6s to hit.

Yes, it is an ugly as sin bandaid. We know. I haven't met a single person, either here or elsewhere, who thinks it is a "sensible" fix. It's gross. But it's needed right now. And GW is not going to release a 5 pages long dataslate with more sensible fixes solely for IG when they already have a Codex (even a garbage one) and they are due for a new one with a small / medium waves of new models.

But sure, better have another sterile and useless discussion on the General subforum. It is already a trashbin afterall.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/04/14 19:36:37


 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Insectum7 wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
And ork nobz are able to… and my alpha can X in the lore…
The game is just about pure mechanical stuff at this point.
Have you also considered that lascannons just aren’t too great?
Run the numbers on some anti tank that’s actually good.
Guardsman range also caps out at around 24 inches, I can think of a lot of vehicle weapons that can stay well outside of that range.
A squad of Guardsmen with Lasguns does as much damage as a Marine wielded Multimelta.


A squad of guardsmen with officer support, inside 12" (so either walking up the board or in a transport) using frsrf chucks out out what, 1.48 damage?

1 marine with no doctrines, buffs or transports and a multimelta does 1.55 at 24"

It's a little apples to oranges.
   
 
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