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GW could always have the next returned Primarch be over in the Dark side of the galaxy...

Maybe only operating in the background; never truly revealing themselves but leaving a trail that points to their return

Working to shore up what they can in the isolated Dark half of the Galaxy

THAT would be an interesting story line!

NOT alongside GMan, not even communicating with Him, NOT wanting to be in charge, just trying to save/salvage what he can...

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Like Imperial Knights, that ship has sailed for good or ill. Whether we prefer it or not that is the reality now and it isn't changing.

I'm fine with Knights and Superheavies being in the game, tbh. (Loyalist) Primarchs running around is stupid.

The only one I see returning next is the Lion followed by Dorn. This has been discussed and speculated for a few years now.

Gman himself stated that he longs for a brother when he confronted Mortarion.

I don't have anything against Primarchs returning it would make the setting even more interesting but I would also like traitor Primarchs to return such as Perturabo and Lorgar.

There's a high chance for Trazyn to throw loyalist Fulgrim unto the battlefield. That would make an interesting read.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
The only one I see returning next is the Lion followed by Dorn. This has been discussed and speculated for a few years now.

Gman himself stated that he longs for a brother when he confronted Mortarion.

I don't have anything against Primarchs returning it would make the setting even more interesting but I would also like traitor Primarchs to return such as Perturabo and Lorgar.

There's a high chance for Trazyn to throw loyalist Fulgrim unto the battlefield. That would make an interesting read.

I haven’t read the stories but it believe that fulgrim was cloned repeatedly and repeatedly went down the same path to corruption. Possibly because primarch clones carry their memories in their DNA (citation needed)

mrFickle wrote:

I haven’t read the stories but it believe that fulgrim was cloned repeatedly and repeatedly went down the same path to corruption. Possibly because primarch clones carry their memories in their DNA (citation needed)

The latest clone showed no signs of Chaos taint. It's only believed he might repeat his past mistakes. Some people speculate the latest clone finally captured his pure soul.

I fear GW couldn't resist bringing back Sanguinius.

And I don't think they care enough about Imperial Fists/Raven Guard/Salamanders to bring back Dorn/Corax/Vulkan.

I would hope for the Lion, but then everyone would want Russ as well.

The Fulgrim clone seen in the Fabius Bile trilogy was given to Trazyn because Bile realised that the Primarchs were always going to be mistakes and problems.
Bile taught the clone from its youngest days and still, the clone turned out exactly the same way as regular Fulgrim before his possession, arrogant, quick to anger, preening, and worst of all extremely charismatic. The clone led the mutants, dregs, and New Men on Bile's ship in a revolt against the Emperor's Children who had "secured" it and then decided it would lead those Emperor's Children in an effort to return them to their previous "glory". It had the same memories as regular Fulgrim and Bile knew it would follow the exact same path as the original. In fact he fully believed the original Fulgrim would corrupt the clone and then there would be two Chaos Fulgrims running around.
That clone wasn't a Loyalist either, it was loyal to its sons and the other creatures Bile made, it would still have fought against the Imperium.
I'm curious as to how there is a "high chance" the clone will show up in 40k considering the novel series is over and the author doesn't work with BL and left on very bad terms.

mrFickle wrote:
I haven’t read the stories but it believe that fulgrim was cloned repeatedly and repeatedly went down the same path to corruption. Possibly because primarch clones carry their memories in their DNA (citation needed)

The other clones were a failure but this one came out perfect and no it did not went the same path to corruption. Primarchs souls do in a way carry DNA memories however the key element is the soul (the warp god) that has (carries) the consciousness and memories.

Fulgrims soul left his body upon ascension, his soul was never shattered into shards like Ferrus, Sanguinius and Magnus. Slaanesh did not take possession of his soul, the soul found its way to the newly perfectly cloned body of his obviously retaining its memories. Fabius Bile cried and even the EC corrupted warband knelt before Fulgrim and every warrior that was around Fulgrim while he was raised by Fabius turned on his side (it's a Primarchs power to turn those around them on their side). Fulgrim deeply regret what he had done however Fabius saw at a moment the arrogance of Fulgrim that lead to their downfall (I don't trust Fabius when it comes to judging a character) and told Trazyn to take the him into his collection.

People don't seem to understand that Fulgrim and the EC (had Fulgrim not made a bad decision) would've never fallen from grace, they would've remained one of the most loyalist and noblest legions during the Heresy.

Here's an example, even if Horus was not chosen as Warmaster but instead was Sanguinius or Gman, they still would've fallen to Chaos, not the same way Horus fell, but the Gods would've found a way to corrupt them.
Same thing with Fulgrim. If any other Primarch picked up the Laer (with the exception of Logan Grimmnar and Kaldor Draigo), him and his legion would've fallen from grace just like Fulgrim did and the EC.

Jarms48 wrote:
The latest clone showed no signs of Chaos taint. It's only believed he might repeat his past mistakes. Some people speculate the latest clone finally captured his pure soul.

It was Fabius who believed that he would make the same mistake and gave him away to Trazyn. Fulgrim wouldn't make the same mistake, let's also not forget that Emperor did not tell the Primarchs of the existence of Chaos. People seem to forget that Chaos cannot corrupt many of the Primarchs from the outside, so the key is to plant the seeds in their souls from the inside like the Laer and the wound Horus was given. The only Primarch that has 100% chance to fall to Chaos without corrupting him from the inside is non other than Lorgar.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I fear GW couldn't resist bringing back Sanguinius.

And I don't think they care enough about Imperial Fists/Raven Guard/Salamanders to bring back Dorn/Corax/Vulkan.

I would hope for the Lion, but then everyone would want Russ as well.

I see Sanguinius to be brought back only in the end of times. The reason why it's "hard" to bring back the angel is because his soul consists of two warp gods, the Sanguinor and Mepihston. If you'd stuff them together like the Emperor did into one body, then you will have the angel back.

It's not just the loyalist that they don't care about, I for an example would like to see more focus on the Salamanders (also because Chaos has a hard time dealing with them because they only use fire) because they're the most humane next to pre-heresy EC. Legion of the Damned with Ferrus as a leader, that would epic.

F.E.A.R have you got a source for Fulgrims soul being uncorrupted?

 NOLA Chris wrote:
GW could always have the next returned Primarch be over in the Dark side of the galaxy...

Maybe only operating in the background; never truly revealing themselves but leaving a trail that points to their return

Working to shore up what they can in the isolated Dark half of the Galaxy

THAT would be an interesting story line!

NOT alongside GMan, not even communicating with Him, NOT wanting to be in charge, just trying to save/salvage what he can...

That’s basically omegon, from what we know, if he was alive (high chance).

 Gert wrote:
F.E.A.R have you got a source for Fulgrims soul being uncorrupted?

No source except the Bile books but anyone can guess what happened. We know that when someone becomes a Daemon Prince the Chaos Gods they choose to pledge service to take their soul and stuffs them with warp junk. This binds them to their will and makes them a daemon and this is what almost happened with the real Fulgrim. When Fabius made the clone there was suddenly a body out there that had a greater claim to Fulgrim's soul than Slaanesh did, hence the soul left Slaanesh and entered into the new Clonegrims body. His soul was never shattered like I mentioned in my comment above nor erased from existence by some kame hame haaa finisher move like Horus was, it was intact. This is my head canon, Fabius isn't a reliable narrator. Fabius just spat bs (that he would do the same mistake again and that he had to stop it) and he was well aware that he was doing wrong when giving Fulgrim to Trazyn. Clonegrim said that he will set everything right that Fulgrim messed up. He had all the memories from the previous Fulgrim and was disgusted by them, there's no such thing as a Laer blade in possession so he would remain loyalist.

Fulgrim's fall was the most unfortunate and most forced. The Laer blade infected his body, mind and spirit making him a Chaos worshiping psycho, and it made him the dick he was.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
No source except the Bile books but anyone can guess what happened.

I will get to the rest but this is the important part. You don't have a source and are making guesses as to what you think has happened, passing it off as fact. Please stop that.

Now to address your headcanon.

We know that when someone becomes a Daemon Prince the Chaos Gods they choose to pledge service to take their soul and stuffs them with warp junk. This binds them to their will and makes them a daemon and this is what almost happened with the real Fulgrim. When Fabius made the clone there was suddenly a body out there that had a greater claim to Fulgrim's soul than Slaanesh did, hence the soul left Slaanesh and entered into the new Clonegrims body.

How would a physical form have more control over a supernatural aspect than a supernatural entity? The only time "claims" come into play is between the various Gods themselves and Fulgrim's clone body is not a God. When a mortal ascends to Daemonhood their soul becomes one with the Warp and by extension their Patron God. Fulgrim's soul belongs to Slaanesh and is tied to his Daemonic form. If his soul somehow left his Daemonic form he would cease to exist.

His soul was never shattered like I mentioned in my comment above nor erased from existence by some kame hame haaa finisher move like Horus was, it was intact. This is my head canon, Fabius isn't a reliable narrator. Fabius just spat bullgak (that he would do the same mistake again and that he had to stop it) and he was well aware that he was doing wrong when giving Fulgrim to Trazyn. Clonegrim said that he will set everything right that Fulgrim messed up. He had all the memories from the previous Fulgrim and was disgusted by them, there's no such thing as a Laer blade in possession so he would remain loyalist.

Fulgrim's fall was the most unfortunate and most forced. The Laer blade infected his body, mind and spirit making him a Chaos worshiping psycho, and he made him the dick he was.

Fabius was also rightly afraid that Daemon Fulgrim would find the clone and then abduct and pervert it just as he did to one of Bile's other creations, Melusine.
And I hate to break it to you chief, but Fulgrim was a prat before he went to Laer. He was an arrogant preening individual who was also deeply paranoid that he was a failure and that nobody liked or respected him. He fell because the Daemon bound in the Laer Blade was able to feed his ego while also stoking the fires of his doubts and fears about his place in the Imperium. His warriors were equally polarised with some embodying the legacy of their proud history and others emulating their Primarch in his never-ending search for perfection.
You also think that because the clone wasn't corrupted by Slaanesh, it would suddenly join the Imperium and not be immediately destroyed for being a Traitor for some reason. The clone only said it would return the Emperor's Children to perfection, not the Imperium. Fabius may be an unreliable narrator with an axe to grind against the Primarchs but with the clone he was right. It would have trod the same path as the original, becoming more and more obssessed with perfection over everything else until one moment of weakness would lead it into the embrace of the Dark Prince once again.

I Agee with Gert. Fabius was offered the opportunity to lead the resurected emperors children and he thought it was a bad idea and he knew that bad idea was exactly what the fulcrum clone would have done, he wouldn't have been able to help it.

they wouldn't have sided with anyone but themselves and I guess that the clone fulgrim could probably have recruited a large amount of loyalists and renegade marines and all oil a sudden you have this massive army led by fulgrim with all the flaws that Bile thinks he has.

Bile still believes that he is trying to save humanity and that his design will be better than the emperors designs for thew primarchs and Astartes. Homo Novus is the the evolution of humanity that can look after itself without the need for primarchs and space marines.

but Bile's worst fear would be that fulgrim would take command of his New Men. addled them down the same path as he did the Emperors Children.

Not that it helps the discussion particularly, but I feel one is enough. Two I think would represent stability which isn't really what we want to see in the Imperium.

You know what would be interesting would be one of the undivided Chaos primarchs being found by Malal/Malice and brought under their fold. That would perhaps create an interesting dynamic where certain renegades would take the fight to Chaos. Perhaps they could occupy some place in the Dark Imperium.

What would be truly interesting is the return of one of the 2 unnamed missing primarchs and legions.

They would be blank slates niether chaos or imperium alligned as there has never been any stories written about how or why they disappeared. I mean it heavily implies they are fallen chapters but not necessarily chaos related. Also there were some implications the XI legion and ultramarines had some overlap in recruitment areas.

I’m sure at some point after the Horus heresy books are done. Gw writers will go back to the time when those legions were lost.

gungo wrote:
What would be truly interesting is the return of one of the 2 unnamed missing primarchs and legions.

They would be blank slates niether chaos or imperium alligned as there has never been any stories written about how or why they disappeared. I mean it heavily implies they are fallen chapters but not necessarily chaos related. Also there were some implications the XI legion and ultramarines had some overlap in recruitment areas.

I’m sure at some point after the Horus heresy books are done. Gw writers will go back to the time when those legions were lost.

One of these guys showing up would be great.

gungo wrote:
What would be truly interesting is the return of one of the 2 unnamed missing primarchs and legions.

They would be blank slates niether chaos or imperium alligned as there has never been any stories written about how or why they disappeared. I mean it heavily implies they are fallen chapters but not necessarily chaos related. Also there were some implications the XI legion and ultramarines had some overlap in recruitment areas.

I’m sure at some point after the Horus heresy books are done. Gw writers will go back to the time when those legions were lost.

Yes that would be sick. It's theorized that the two Primarchs are held prisoners under the Imperial Palace in the Dark Cells by the Shadow Keepers Custodes because they guard dangerous technology (too valuable to be destroyed or lost, but too dangerous to be used) and hectic monsters. It doesn't make sense for the two lost Primarchs to do something more horrible than Horus and the other traitors did during the Heresy that the Emperor erase them from Imperial Records, it just doesn't make sense. I can't think of anything what they could've done that was more evil than Horus. Either they did something bad and are held in the Dark Cells under the Imperial Palace or they are somewhere far away in the galaxy (maybe like the Ghoul Stars) in hiding thanks to some Dark Age Tech the Emps gave them to not age. If the Big E said he will forgive Mortarion, than I don't see why he shouldn't forgive the Two Primarchs. In the end I would say that it's old lore that doesn't make sense anymore and it just needs to be retconned.

gungo wrote:
What would be truly interesting is the return of one of the 2 unnamed missing primarchs and legions.

They would be blank slates niether chaos or imperium alligned as there has never been any stories written about how or why they disappeared. I mean it heavily implies they are fallen chapters but not necessarily chaos related. Also there were some implications the XI legion and ultramarines had some overlap in recruitment areas.

I’m sure at some point after the Horus heresy books are done. Gw writers will go back to the time when those legions were lost.

I'm reasonably sure that material from the HH novels confirms that they're both dead, but I could be wrong there.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And I don't think they care enough about Imperial Fists

Count the number of special characters they have in HH. It's, like, more than six really 'not cared enough' legions combined. They also have two command squads, multiple upgrade packs, and tons of other gak. Then there is IF [Captain America shield sound] in Solar War series with not just Dorn beating up one traitor primarch after another, but individual IF captains doing so too

If there are 10-15 legions GW don't care about, IF are not among them.

mrFickle wrote:
I Agee with Gert. Fabius was offered the opportunity to lead the resurected emperors children and he thought it was a bad idea and he knew that bad idea was exactly what the fulcrum clone would have done, he wouldn't have been able to help it.

they wouldn't have sided with anyone but themselves and I guess that the clone fulgrim could probably have recruited a large amount of loyalists and renegade marines and all oil a sudden you have this massive army led by fulgrim with all the flaws that Bile thinks he has.

Bile still believes that he is trying to save humanity and that his design will be better than the emperors designs for thew primarchs and Astartes. Homo Novus is the the evolution of humanity that can look after itself without the need for primarchs and space marines.

but Bile's worst fear would be that fulgrim would take command of his New Men. addled them down the same path as he did the Emperors Children.

That... er. Spoilers, I guess.
Its important to realize that most of the Fulgrim trilogy (except the epilogue of the third book, when Black Legion guy shows up to whine about how much better primaris are) happened some time in the past. Centuries at least

Given the promise of a Gman rebuild in the codex 2.0 that Astartes hope to be getting, I'm guessing they will make him more inline with the chaotic stupidity that is the current balance.

 Dysartes wrote:

gungo wrote:
What would be truly interesting is the return of one of the 2 unnamed missing primarchs and legions.

They would be blank slates niether chaos or imperium alligned as there has never been any stories written about how or why they disappeared. I mean it heavily implies they are fallen chapters but not necessarily chaos related. Also there were some implications the XI legion and ultramarines had some overlap in recruitment areas.

I’m sure at some point after the Horus heresy books are done. Gw writers will go back to the time when those legions were lost.

I'm reasonably sure that material from the HH novels confirms that they're both dead, but I could be wrong there.

As far back as the 3.5 CSM codex it quite clearly says that all of the primarchs were found and all participated in the Great Crusade. Neither are "lost" and waiting to be found and both are dead, dead, dead.

From a personal perspective if GW ever did bring back more loyalist Primarchs my money would be on The Lion and Russ. Both would be good counters to Guilliman and to each other. I'd rather in general that we see the other Daemon Primarchs make appearances as they are more fitting to the current timeline.

On a separate note I have often thought that a new version of the Sanquinor where he is the spiritual manifestation of Sanguinious, on par in power with the other Primarchs in the game, would be a nice addition in place of trying to bring him back in some fashion.

 BlackLobster wrote:
From a personal perspective if GW ever did bring back more loyalist Primarchs my money would be on The Lion and Russ. Both would be good counters to Guilliman and to each other. I'd rather in general that we see the other Daemon Primarchs make appearances as they are more fitting to the current timeline.

Lion and Russ are close, they wouldn't "counter" or foil each other - quite the opposite.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that Corax would be one of the better choices to add a foil to Guilliman.

His history on Deliverance would likely lead to some pretty hefty words for the way some Imperium planets treat their populaces, and that's not even getting into anything relating to the Chapter recruiting worlds that are kept purposely at a state of barbarism because reasons.

The Imperium did slavery when Corax was kicking about during the Crusade. For all his talk of being a liberator and preserve of life, he still served an empire that openly endorsed slavery.
Like it's definitely worse but not to the point where Corax's reaction would be any different to Guilliman's.

I wonder if Dorn will be the next loyal primarch to return, based on nothing but speculation. Purely saying it cause the next Guard tank is going to be called the Dorn.

Why can't it be a sister who returns???

Hecaton wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
From a personal perspective if GW ever did bring back more loyalist Primarchs my money would be on The Lion and Russ. Both would be good counters to Guilliman and to each other. I'd rather in general that we see the other Daemon Primarchs make appearances as they are more fitting to the current timeline.

Lion and Russ are close, they wouldn't "counter" or foil each other - quite the opposite.

Agreed... once upon a time but would they still be so after ten thousand years. The Lion has been asleep but we don't know about Russ, and if they brought him back, he'd have to fit in with how the chapter is presented now. I think things would be different.

And they had had their falling out during the HH, if I'm not mistaken - that's going to be fairly fresh in the Lion's mind once he awakens.