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Made in us
Been Around the Block





 SirDonlad wrote:
If critique is 'off topic' then only praise can remain.
That's not a difficult concept to grasp.

If a meme is funny then it has a contrarian point which is the object of the humor.
I've seen millions of un-funny memes.

Listen up son; you lack the understanding of the English language required comprehend how wrong you are.
You are grammatically, literally, philosophically, intellectually and theoretically wrong.

You seem unable to comprehend the fact you have been 'dunked on' so hard that you have decided that the lack of responses was your righteousness: when in fact the entire user base of the site which can see this thread are sitting back and watching what nonsense you type next.
You are not salvaging your reputation, you are not taking victory laps; you are digging a metaphorical hole which is so deep now, you have mistaken the opening for the moon and continued to dig.

It is not a troll if you made yourself look like an idiot while doing so; it has now become a 'self-own'.

the title of the thread is "thoughts so far." that is opening the door for everyone. if he wanted to share his boomer views then it should be titled MY thoughts so far.

how DARE he just SHARE his opinion in a thread he created about sharing opinions? doesn't he KNOW that I LIKE IT?!? what an ASS!
I mean, just NOT liking it is, like, totally off topic..
Your opinion is not bussin' FR bruh. on god.

Is it registering exactly how you are coming across now?



you seam mad. lol i dont care for what online people think and the op in this thread that it was ment for him only to share his thought and just memed otheres for giving a different point of view. lol let me play you a song

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 22:21:50


 
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest







-Removed-


The mods decided to remove this one?!

v. confusing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 00:10:16


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 SirDonlad wrote:
so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion

Now hold on there. I didn't say disliking it was off-topic. I said refusing to even try the game out and then posting memes in response to people discussing the game was off topic. How do you have thoughts on the edition if you refuse to play the edition? I never said anyone had to like the edition, just that refusing to even try it is pretty shallow in how deep your "thoughts so far" can go.
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







To be fair, I think the edition is good without having played it, either

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 23:27:06


Posters on ignore list: 36

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Ill be honestly i never understood the hatred of IGOUGO, so many games operate off it, and its been fine for the last what 30 years?
If you think removing IGOUGO puts the game in a better place, you are just trading one set of problems for another.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest







 ClockworkZion wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion

Now hold on there. I didn't say disliking it was off-topic. I said refusing to even try the game out and then posting memes in response to people discussing the game was off topic. How do you have thoughts on the edition if you refuse to play the edition? I never said anyone had to like the edition, just that refusing to even try it is pretty shallow in how deep your "thoughts so far" can go.


I think you'll agree that in another context it is reasonable to assess a game system and it's merits/failings without playing it.
I think you should examine your own response; to the release of a new codex for example.
You go over it and see what new stuff may cause your existing force any problems - that is you virtually assessing the game system because it's necessary to assess the interaction between the two codexes.
You just do it so naturally that you don't register it as a calculating assessment is all.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 SirDonlad wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion

Now hold on there. I didn't say disliking it was off-topic. I said refusing to even try the game out and then posting memes in response to people discussing the game was off topic. How do you have thoughts on the edition if you refuse to play the edition? I never said anyone had to like the edition, just that refusing to even try it is pretty shallow in how deep your "thoughts so far" can go.


I think you'll agree that in another context it is reasonable to assess a game system and it's merits/failings without playing it.
I think you should examine your own response; to the release of a new codex for example.
You go over it and see what new stuff may cause your existing force any problems - that is you virtually assessing the game system because it's necessary to assess the interaction between the two codexes.
You just do it so naturally that you don't register it as a calculating assessment is all.

Sure, we can talk about preferences and give untested opinions without every playing the game even once, and how we think rules feel, but theory only gets so far. Pretty sure I've seen people mention countless times over the years that mathhammer isn't everything after all, and the same applies here. To best know a game you should at least play it once (preferably more than once, but at least once).

Like I said, I'm not telling anyone to like or dislike the new edition, but I'd hoped that at least we'd see the discussion evolve past "I'm not even going to try because I think it'll be broken" to actually seeing how broken it is, or if paying for all those extra reactions through wargear sets you back in other ways instead.

Basically "thoughts so far" doesn't even go into the edition, it just stops at the door and without seeing the rest of what's inside claims it's not worth spending any more time on.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 ClockworkZion wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion

Now hold on there. I didn't say disliking it was off-topic. I said refusing to even try the game out and then posting memes in response to people discussing the game was off topic. How do you have thoughts on the edition if you refuse to play the edition? I never said anyone had to like the edition, just that refusing to even try it is pretty shallow in how deep your "thoughts so far" can go.


I think you'll agree that in another context it is reasonable to assess a game system and it's merits/failings without playing it.
I think you should examine your own response; to the release of a new codex for example.
You go over it and see what new stuff may cause your existing force any problems - that is you virtually assessing the game system because it's necessary to assess the interaction between the two codexes.
You just do it so naturally that you don't register it as a calculating assessment is all.

Sure, we can talk about preferences and give untested opinions without every playing the game even once, and how we think rules feel, but theory only gets so far. Pretty sure I've seen people mention countless times over the years that mathhammer isn't everything after all, and the same applies here. To best know a game you should at least play it once (preferably more than once, but at least once).

Like I said, I'm not telling anyone to like or dislike the new edition, but I'd hoped that at least we'd see the discussion evolve past "I'm not even going to try because I think it'll be broken" to actually seeing how broken it is, or if paying for all those extra reactions through wargear sets you back in other ways instead.

Basically "thoughts so far" doesn't even go into the edition, it just stops at the door and without seeing the rest of what's inside claims it's not worth spending any more time on.


i have played a few times and what i am trying to look into is a army of dreads. i feel like its nidzila on crack. but i need games to figur it out. squads of melta bombs and lots of plasma may be the fix. what do you feel about it.
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest







I have vivid memories of the release of 8th edition and people saying how wrong i was that the 'deathstar' hadn't been eliminated and it had in fact become much larger.
i remember 3000 years ago...
and crabblesworth was there...

And Lo; the buff shall henceforth be an 'area effect' around unique characters, so sayeth the lords G.W. our gods.
Blessed shall be ALL units within such rapture; the lord saying thus- And shall benefited be all units partially within my light. amen.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






For god's sake stop being annoying and just try the game, you don't even have to buy the rules because they've been leaked online for weeks now.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309


I mean you set the topic as "Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far" so posting memes and saying you refuse to even try HH 2.0 seems pretty off topic.

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to games but I'm also looking forward to when GW finally shows me what Night Lord upgrade sprues will look like so I can decide how I want to approach building my models. Box finally came in yesterday after shipping almost a week after the release date.


I am doing the same thing, speaking of which, do we have any idea when those NL upgrade sprues will be coming out?

I also got the box and am brand new to HH so I really have no clue what is good or not, but I do know I want my squads with upgraded helms and Chainblades/glaives where possible. I also am thinking that I plan to run the Terror Assault Rites.

I liked the look of the display NL army that they have in the main rulebook, though again I have zero idea of it's effectiveness or not.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Chainglaves are neat and bat helms are cool. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.. .-.. .-.. ..- -- .. -. .- - ..






Toowoomba, Australia

EldarExarch wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309


I mean you set the topic as "Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far" so posting memes and saying you refuse to even try HH 2.0 seems pretty off topic.

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to games but I'm also looking forward to when GW finally shows me what Night Lord upgrade sprues will look like so I can decide how I want to approach building my models. Box finally came in yesterday after shipping almost a week after the release date.


I am doing the same thing, speaking of which, do we have any idea when those NL upgrade sprues will be coming out?

I also got the box and am brand new to HH so I really have no clue what is good or not, but I do know I want my squads with upgraded helms and Chainblades/glaives where possible. I also am thinking that I plan to run the Terror Assault Rites.

I liked the look of the display NL army that they have in the main rulebook, though again I have zero idea of it's effectiveness or not.



I expect that if they can keep up the current release schedule ALL legions will have thier upgrade kits within 4-6 months of game release. When will NLs be? No idea.

2024: Games Played:0/Models Bought:7/Sold:0/Painted: 53
2023: Games Played:0/Models Bought:287/Sold:0/Painted: 203
2020-2022: Games Played:42/Models Bought:1271/Sold:631/Painted:442
2016-19: Games Played:369/Models Bought:772/Sold:378/ Painted:268
2012-15: Games Played:412/Models Bought: 1163/Sold:730/Painted:436 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 SirDonlad wrote:
I have vivid memories of the release of 8th edition and people saying how wrong i was that the 'deathstar' hadn't been eliminated and it had in fact become much larger.
i remember 3000 years ago...
and crabblesworth was there...

And Lo; the buff shall henceforth be an 'area effect' around unique characters, so sayeth the lords G.W. our gods.
Blessed shall be ALL units within such rapture; the lord saying thus- And shall benefited be all units partially within my light. amen.

I mean I was talking about Dorn's Moving Castle lists when C:SM dropped but pretend a lot of people weren't aware you could do messed up things with auras in 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Chainglaves are neat and bat helms are cool. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 01:29:52


 
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest







 ClockworkZion wrote:
Spoiler:
 SirDonlad wrote:
I have vivid memories of the release of 8th edition and people saying how wrong i was that the 'deathstar' hadn't been eliminated and it had in fact become much larger.
i remember 3000 years ago...
and crabblesworth was there...

And Lo; the buff shall henceforth be an 'area effect' around unique characters, so sayeth the lords G.W. our gods.
Blessed shall be ALL units within such rapture; the lord saying thus- And shall benefited be all units partially within my light. amen.

I mean I was talking about Dorn's Moving Castle lists when C:SM dropped but pretend a lot of people weren't aware you could do messed up things with auras in 8th.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Chainglaves are neat and bat helms are cool. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more
.


A whole bunch of people believed that at the time; here's one example i found easily
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/725647.page#9433026

in other news:
Can we get some recognition for when hyperbole becomes reality here please? https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725647.page#9359481

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more.

Could you explain that more?

Chainblades/glaives give +1/+2 str along with ap3 and shred like Claws but have Breaching instead of Rending. I believe they are both the same pts at 10 (unless you go dual claws at 15). Claws are also Specialist Weapons whereas Chain weapons are not.

Is Rending just that much better with the extra roll against Vehicles?

Side note: Definitely plan to have many Lightning Claws too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 02:27:59


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 SirDonlad wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Spoiler:
 SirDonlad wrote:
I have vivid memories of the release of 8th edition and people saying how wrong i was that the 'deathstar' hadn't been eliminated and it had in fact become much larger.
i remember 3000 years ago...
and crabblesworth was there...

And Lo; the buff shall henceforth be an 'area effect' around unique characters, so sayeth the lords G.W. our gods.
Blessed shall be ALL units within such rapture; the lord saying thus- And shall benefited be all units partially within my light. amen.

I mean I was talking about Dorn's Moving Castle lists when C:SM dropped but pretend a lot of people weren't aware you could do messed up things with auras in 8th.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Chainglaves are neat and bat helms are cool. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more
.


A whole bunch of people believed that at the time; here's one example i found easily
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/725647.page#9433026

in other news:
Can we get some recognition for when hyperbole becomes reality here please? https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725647.page#9359481

30k didn't move to 8th though.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 ClockworkZion wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Spoiler:
 SirDonlad wrote:
I have vivid memories of the release of 8th edition and people saying how wrong i was that the 'deathstar' hadn't been eliminated and it had in fact become much larger.
i remember 3000 years ago...
and crabblesworth was there...

And Lo; the buff shall henceforth be an 'area effect' around unique characters, so sayeth the lords G.W. our gods.
Blessed shall be ALL units within such rapture; the lord saying thus- And shall benefited be all units partially within my light. amen.

I mean I was talking about Dorn's Moving Castle lists when C:SM dropped but pretend a lot of people weren't aware you could do messed up things with auras in 8th.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Chainglaves are neat and bat helms are cool. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more
.


A whole bunch of people believed that at the time; here's one example i found easily
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/725647.page#9433026

in other news:
Can we get some recognition for when hyperbole becomes reality here please? https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725647.page#9359481

30k didn't move to 8th though.


Thank what ever deity you believe in for that.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

EldarExarch wrote:

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more.


Could you explain that more?

Chainblades/glaives give +1/+2 str along with ap3 and shred like Claws but have Breaching instead of Rending. I believe they are both the same pts at 10 (unless you go dual claws at 15). Claws are also Specialist Weapons whereas Chain weapons are not.

Is Rending just that much better with the extra roll against Vehicles?

Side note: Definitely plan to have many Lightning Claws too.

Chainglaives are two-handed though so no bonus attacks for two-weapons at all.

I forgot that both weapon types had shred though, which opens some options since that means re-rolls to wound are great, especially when you can trigger a +1 to wound by out numbering for Night Lords.

Probably help if I just cracked open my Liber Hereticus since it was delivered this evening.

Alright, Breaching(6+) from chainblades/chainglaives is resolved at AP2 as long as the target has a wounds characteristic. Now this triggers on a 5+ as long as you get a +1 to wound bonus from the NL Legion trait.

Meanwhile Rending(6+) from lighting claws automatically wounds as long as you roll the value on shown and that is resolved at AP2 (against vehicles you also get a bonus D3 for your penetration roll). With the NL Legion trait you can potentially get this off on a 5+ as well.

So what I'm seeing is we want both. Chainblades will most often be hitting at S5, Chainglaives at S6 and both go to AP2 on a 6+. Lighting Claws will be at S4, but auto-wound at AP2 on a 6+. All three of these re-roll wounds. Chainglaives can't gain bonus attacks for having a pistol, and Lighting Claws only gain a bonus attack if you have two of them.

And basically I can't decide which I like more. Maybe chainglaives on characters but lighting claws on sergeants? It's a tough pick unless someone has some ideas on I'm not grocking yet.

Though now that I've got a better idea how these all work properly, I think mixing in a power fist or a chainfist into some units (like Terminators) will be a must.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 04:06:47


 
   
Made in us
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Cadia

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ill be honestly i never understood the hatred of IGOUGO, so many games operate off it, and its been fine for the last what 30 years?


It hasn't been fine for the past 30 years, it's been a bad system. It's just that as time has passed and more games have experimented with alternative systems we've figured out better ways of doing things. GW is just stuck in the past and refusing to adapt.

If you think removing IGOUGO puts the game in a better place, you are just trading one set of problems for another.


The problems with non-IGOUGO systems are highly overstated, often by people who have never played any non-GW games and make claims about how alternating activation games "always work" that are indisputably not true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I guess you didn't see my post mocking the reaction system for only allowing a tank to drive out of melta range if no other tank is currently attempting to do it? The reaction system is stupid, it's just marginally less terrible than IGOUGO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SirDonlad wrote:
consider: 'chess'


Um, what? Chess is not IGOUGO, it's a textbook example of an alternating activation game. You alternate moving one piece at a time, you don't have each player move all of their pieces before passing the turn back to the other player.

if we want to be philosophical about it, actual combat is IGOUGO at a strategic level


It really isn't. At no point in actual combat do your units wait patiently and do nothing as they are slaughtered because it's not their turn to act. Real combat at a strategic level is a simultaneous activation game with hidden orders issued at the start of each turn.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 05:18:11


THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 SirDonlad wrote:
Yes, real war is IGOUGO.


That is a... bold statement. To say the least.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Spoiler:
EldarExarch wrote:

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more.


Could you explain that more?

Chainblades/glaives give +1/+2 str along with ap3 and shred like Claws but have Breaching instead of Rending. I believe they are both the same pts at 10 (unless you go dual claws at 15). Claws are also Specialist Weapons whereas Chain weapons are not.

Is Rending just that much better with the extra roll against Vehicles?

Side note: Definitely plan to have many Lightning Claws too.

Chainglaives are two-handed though so no bonus attacks for two-weapons at all.

I forgot that both weapon types had shred though, which opens some options since that means re-rolls to wound are great, especially when you can trigger a +1 to wound by out numbering for Night Lords.

Probably help if I just cracked open my Liber Hereticus since it was delivered this evening.

Alright, Breaching(6+) from chainblades/chainglaives is resolved at AP2 as long as the target has a wounds characteristic. Now this triggers on a 5+ as long as you get a +1 to wound bonus from the NL Legion trait.

Meanwhile Rending(6+) from lighting claws automatically wounds as long as you roll the value on shown and that is resolved at AP2 (against vehicles you also get a bonus D3 for your penetration roll). With the NL Legion trait you can potentially get this off on a 5+ as well.

So what I'm seeing is we want both. Chainblades will most often be hitting at S5, Chainglaives at S6 and both go to AP2 on a 6+. Lighting Claws will be at S4, but auto-wound at AP2 on a 6+. All three of these re-roll wounds. Chainglaives can't gain bonus attacks for having a pistol, and Lighting Claws only gain a bonus attack if you have two of them.

And basically I can't decide which I like more. Maybe chainglaives on characters but lighting claws on sergeants? It's a tough pick unless someone has some ideas on I'm not grocking yet.

Though now that I've got a better idea how these all work properly, I think mixing in a power fist or a chainfist into some units (like Terminators) will be a must.

Yes, they're all good. I finally got a chance to sit down and fully digest my copy of Liber Hereticus today. And all of our rules are good. Everything. A Talent For Murder, Preysight, Bloody Murder. Terror Squads and Night Raptors are what elite Night Lords should have always been.

The best part, for me, is that we can give Preysight to everything. Even our vehicles. We couldn't get Night Vision on anything besides infantry in both 3.5 and Traitor Legions. Finally our vehicles won't have to light themselves up with searchlights in a night fight. The 8th Legion will finally be able to fight how they're supposed to: in total darkness.

These are the best rules we've ever had. You picked a great time to sign up, Zion.
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Albertorius wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
Yes, real war is IGOUGO.


That is a... bold statement. To say the least.


Yeah famously during WW2 no one ever fired simultaneously. German and Soviet troops would allow one another to take shots before the other side fired back (that is unless they failed a morale check).

The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.  
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

I'll only be able to play some games in the second part of august, which is a shame ! But, despite me being against change especially when it's not necessary like this, I'm really curious and in a hast of testing it. I'm very interested to get some info about how your games / lists have changed since the release ?
I'm very sad my elite units lost their jet pack and got artificer armor instead, obviously not freely...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 12:13:06


   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest







CadianSgtBob wrote:
Spoiler:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ill be honestly i never understood the hatred of IGOUGO, so many games operate off it, and its been fine for the last what 30 years?


It hasn't been fine for the past 30 years, it's been a bad system. It's just that as time has passed and more games have experimented with alternative systems we've figured out better ways of doing things. GW is just stuck in the past and refusing to adapt.

If you think removing IGOUGO puts the game in a better place, you are just trading one set of problems for another.


The problems with non-IGOUGO systems are highly overstated, often by people who have never played any non-GW games and make claims about how alternating activation games "always work" that are indisputably not true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I guess you didn't see my post mocking the reaction system for only allowing a tank to drive out of melta range if no other tank is currently attempting to do it? The reaction system is stupid, it's just marginally less terrible than IGOUGO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SirDonlad wrote:
consider: 'chess'


Um, what? Chess is not IGOUGO, it's a textbook example of an alternating activation game. You alternate moving one piece at a time, you don't have each player move all of their pieces before passing the turn back to the other player.

if we want to be philosophical about it, actual combat is IGOUGO at a strategic level


It really isn't. At no point in actual combat do your units wait patiently and do nothing as they are slaughtered because it's not their turn to act. Real combat at a strategic level is a simultaneous activation game with hidden orders issued at the start of each turn.


Last time i played chess you didn't activate every peice you control per turn.
you select a piece during your turn and move or attack with it.
then the opponent selects a piece...
IGOUGO.

and yes, at a strategic level war is chess with artillery.
you move and attack, their batteries counter-fire or move
IGOUGO.

even during 'simultaneous fire' there are clear stages when each side has to choose to either move or shoot.
The timing becomes incredibly precise and the turn time is very small, but those moments are still there (asymmetric firing rates for example)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 12:42:14


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Frankly I'm just bored with alternating activations, everybody and their dog outside GW has been doing it for 10+ years straight now with barely any innovation. You can tout it as "superior" to IGOUGO all you want, it's not any more interesting or enjoyable to play at this point. I look forward to IGOUGO with a bit of reaction spice for a change of pace.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 13:04:59


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40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
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I think you hit the nail on the head about 'pace' of games.
IGOUGO gives you time to ponder while the opponent has their turn.
alternating activation keeps you occupied more consistently over a span of time which i go for when i'm feeling it (adeptus titanicus, IK:renegade) but i like the tactical ponder because i feel like i'm actually being social while i play.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
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 SirDonlad wrote:

Last time i played chess you didn't activate every peice you control per turn.
you select a piece during your turn and move or attack with it.
then the opponent selects a piece...
IGOUGO.

By that definition, Bolt Action is IGOUGO. You understand that's not how things are, right?

the actual definition of IGOUGO is "In my turn, I make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in my whole army. In your turn, you make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in your whole army. Rinse and repeat".

Alternate activation, OTOH, most usually mean "you select a piece during your turn and move or attack with it. then the opponent selects a piece...".

So, no, neither chess nor Bolt Action are IGOUGO. So... yeah. Alternate activation.

and yes, at a strategic level war is chess with artillery.
you move and attack, their batteries counter-fire or move
IGOUGO.

even during 'simultaneous fire' there are clear stages when each side has to choose to either move or shoot.
The timing becomes incredibly precise and the turn time is very small, but those moments are still there (asymmetric firing rates for example)

Again, no. That simply makes it abundantly clear you don't know what IGOUGO means.

There is a case to be made that the term IGOUGO itself isn't really all that clear, but still.

EDIT: Just as an addicional case in point, Easy E did a quite thorough post of the usually defined kinds of games:

Spoiler:
 Easy E wrote:
Usually IGOUGO is contrasted with:

Alternate Activation: One unit/model activates, does its thing, and then the opponent chooses a unit and does stuff. Deadzone and Void.

Reaction Activation: A player activates and does stuff, until the opponent tries to "interrupt" or "react" and take over activation. Force-on-Force of Infinity

Activation by Phase: One player does all their movement, then the next player does their movement, then the first player does all their shooting, etc. Play alternates by game phase between players. I can't think of an example right now.

Bid System: Players bid resources to try and gain the ability to activate a unit. Men of Bronze

Chit Draw/Random Activation: A player pulls a marker out of a bog/rolls a dice, or draws a card which says which units can activate. This allows you to trade-off and not know who will get to do something next. Bolt Action

Initiative Order: The order in which units activate is dictated by the turn sequence or a stat rank. I.e. Tanks activate before infantry. Once all the appropriate unit types activate and do stuff, then units further down the list can activate. Dux Bellorum

Proceed until Failed: The player chooses a unit and makes a command check. If passed, the unit can act. If failed play turns over to the opponent. Blood Bowl, Warmaster, Lion Rampant, and the Warlord mass battle games.

Those are some examples of other activation methods. The world is full of them. As yo play more games, you will see there are many more ways to handle activation than IGOUGO.

IGOUGO is not inherently bad and other systems good. It all depends on how you use it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 13:38:08


 
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
EldarExarch wrote:

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more.


Could you explain that more?

Chainblades/glaives give +1/+2 str along with ap3 and shred like Claws but have Breaching instead of Rending. I believe they are both the same pts at 10 (unless you go dual claws at 15). Claws are also Specialist Weapons whereas Chain weapons are not.

Is Rending just that much better with the extra roll against Vehicles?

Side note: Definitely plan to have many Lightning Claws too.

Chainglaives are two-handed though so no bonus attacks for two-weapons at all.

I forgot that both weapon types had shred though, which opens some options since that means re-rolls to wound are great, especially when you can trigger a +1 to wound by out numbering for Night Lords.

Probably help if I just cracked open my Liber Hereticus since it was delivered this evening.

Alright, Breaching(6+) from chainblades/chainglaives is resolved at AP2 as long as the target has a wounds characteristic. Now this triggers on a 5+ as long as you get a +1 to wound bonus from the NL Legion trait.

Meanwhile Rending(6+) from lighting claws automatically wounds as long as you roll the value on shown and that is resolved at AP2 (against vehicles you also get a bonus D3 for your penetration roll). With the NL Legion trait you can potentially get this off on a 5+ as well.

So what I'm seeing is we want both. Chainblades will most often be hitting at S5, Chainglaives at S6 and both go to AP2 on a 6+. Lighting Claws will be at S4, but auto-wound at AP2 on a 6+. All three of these re-roll wounds. Chainglaives can't gain bonus attacks for having a pistol, and Lighting Claws only gain a bonus attack if you have two of them.

And basically I can't decide which I like more. Maybe chainglaives on characters but lighting claws on sergeants? It's a tough pick unless someone has some ideas on I'm not grocking yet.

Though now that I've got a better idea how these all work properly, I think mixing in a power fist or a chainfist into some units (like Terminators) will be a must.


Thank you thank you, exactly along the lines of my thoughts.
   
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My core gaming group consists of me (been playing since 2005), a friend (joined at end of 5th), and 2 newer guys who started in 9th.

We've yet to get a game in, but the two newer guys have been asking a ton of questions why GW got rid of things in 9th that 30k is now doing (example armor facings and all or nothing AP). They both seem much more positive and have said the game seems like it has more role play elements baked-in and that 9th feels a lot more like a competitive game. I feel somewhat vindicated since these have been my thoughts for a while now and having new players who have no nostalgia come to the same conclusions I have from just reading the rules is great. Our first game is this weekend and it's going to be exciting!

As for the reaction system debate going on here. I think it's the most well balanced version across all 3 games (40k, 30k, AoS).
-40k's stratagem system is too bloated, requires a lot of book keeping and held together with band-aid patches.
-AoS system is decent, but there are some "force multiplier" CA's that could probably use a culling and I'm not a fan of an external resource to track (cp).
-30k's system of 3(6) core reactions +1 advance faction reaction is so much less to remember, and since there's no "resource" generation system tied to it, there seems to be less avenues of exploitation.

A game at the scale 30k (40k and AoS as well) would probably become too cumbersome with a pure Alternating Activation system, though a detachment based AA system with casualty removal at the end of a turn seems like the best approach to AA at this scale. (RIP Apocalypse).

The only major gripes our group has from the launch of HH 2.0 has been the lack of product availability. Hopefully that's a good sign that the game out-sold expectations and we're in for major support in the years to come!
   
 
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