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bmsattler wrote:
I'm concerned that the Calculated Targeting stratagem will paint a target on the knight that is built to take advantage of it. Big knights aren't that hard to kill and Imperials don't have many ways of changing that. Units like Tau Broadsides can sit behind a building and just savage a big knight.

What have people's experiences been in that regard? I see that most of the successful armies have been Taranis to take advantage of the warlord trait combo, so it works. Is it just a matter of luck, or not? What techniques have you used to keep it alive long enough to make a difference?

I think non-IK armies will very quickly get savvy to "Calculated Targeting" but I think this is not necessarily a bad thing. It is a powerful ability and having no counters would potentially be unbalanced. Taranis has a bit more flexibility to keep a big Knight alive for sure.

Beyond that, use of terrain will be helpful although a Crusader is not the easiest thing in the world to hide. One option is to make use of the Crusader as a threat. If you cannot hide it, move the rest of your army aggressively. Force your opponent to choose between targeting the Armigers holding your Objectives and the Crusader that is about to unleash a bucket of MWs on them.

I like the suggestion of using position and threat to influence targeting. I feel like Armigers under Bondsman are very tough and also our best cannon-fodder. The big knights are the weak link in the Imperial Knights army as once they die the Armigers get way easier to kill. I'm hoping to push an opponent hard enough with the Armigers that they have to deal with them first, not having enough left over to deal with the big knights for the endgame.

Feadair wrote:
So the rumour is that we will be going to just six Command Points in a couple of weeks with the new Chapter Approved, and that the first Warlord Trait and Relic will no longer be free. To compensate, you will gain a CP in both players’ Command Phases. How will that affect lists?

My first instinct is that we will need to skimp on pre-game CP use. I would always like to start with at least 1 CP, so that I can Rotate Shields turn 1 even if going second. This would mean a combined maximum of 5 Traits and Relics. That is annoying for a 3+4 list, as they tend to want to have a trait and an heirloom on each big knight.

Keep in mind you get a CP at the start of each turn - both your turn and your opponents. If you spend out all 6 CP before the battle starts, you will have 1-2 CP by the time your opponent starts doing stuff, depending on whether you go first or second.

That's why the starting with 1 CP is so important. It lets you gain a CP in your opponents turn if they go first and still be able to rotate ion shields on a big knight.

Warcom just confirmed that we will be able to take multiple secondaries from faction-specific lists. With Stranglehold going away, the knights options are looking more appealing! We can take all three of our reasonable choices and not have to kill anything to do well.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Feadair wrote:
So the rumour is that we will be going to just six Command Points in a couple of weeks with the new Chapter Approved, and that the first Warlord Trait and Relic will no longer be free. To compensate, you will gain a CP in both players’ Command Phases. How will that affect lists?

My first instinct is that we will need to skimp on pre-game CP use. I would always like to start with at least 1 CP, so that I can Rotate Shields turn 1 even if going second. This would mean a combined maximum of 5 Traits and Relics. That is annoying for a 3+4 list, as they tend to want to have a trait and an heirloom on each big knight.

Keep in mind you get a CP at the start of each turn - both your turn and your opponents. If you spend out all 6 CP before the battle starts, you will have 1-2 CP by the time your opponent starts doing stuff, depending on whether you go first or second.

Knights can actually start with 4. Defend the Realm gives you +1 Battleforged CP if you're Honored (which you can start Honored with Revered Knight or Banner of Macharius Triumphant). This ability specifically calls out that it raises the battleforged CP by 1 on your turn. So while it's active you'll gain 2 CP on your turn and 1CP on your opponent's turn. Then you can take Cunning Commander, which lets you gain 1CP on a 5+ at the start of each of your turns. Based on the new rules:

If You Go First
-2 Battleforged CP
-1/3 chance at +1 CP from Cunning Commander
-1 CP from opponent's turn
Total: 3-4 CP

If Your Opponent Goes First
-1 CP from opponent's turn (and you're stuck with this until your turn)
-2 Battleforged CP
-1/3 chance at +1 CP from Cunning Commander
Total: 3-4 CP

You start with 1 Honor no matter what, you can take Revered Knight or the Banner but you don't have to. They do make you progress faster, or give you a buffer if you feel like you might trip over the Lay Low penalty first turn or something though.

bmsattler wrote:
You start with 1 Honor no matter what, you can take Revered Knight or the Banner but you don't have to. They do make you progress faster, or give you a buffer if you feel like you might trip over the Lay Low penalty first turn or something though.

Huh, I thought we started with 0. Well, that makes it even easier.

Very close to finishing painting my dominus class knight but I'm concerned that he will be ready just in time to be unusable in the game :-(

Bringing a dominus effectively rule you out of getting the full 6CP refund from the SH detachment.
Now the 3CP you pay is half your CP before any Relics or Traits.
I just don't see how the dominus is usable under these new rules - its not like they are particularly good as they don't have any synergy with anything else but I want to run a nice mix of classes.

You can run a Dominus with 6+ Armigers and get a full 6 CP refund.

bmsattler wrote:
You can run a Dominus with 6+ Armigers and get a full 6 CP refund.

Technically true but not a particularly useful build as the Armigers then can't get any Bondsmen abilities or the -1 Damage rule.

Ironically I think the best place for Dominus Knights is going to be as a Freeblade allied to something else. This is a bit daft as a lone Castellan was the key ingredient of Imperial Soup in 8th edition.

Except to add a freeblade your other army is now paying half their cp not factoring having enough having cp left over to buff it

Anyone have any fun Tournament stories to share? I’ve got a RTT this weekend

Taking a shooty raven list

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Anyone have any fun Tournament stories to share? I’ve got a RTT this weekend

Taking a shooty raven list

Interested to share your list and game plan with us?

 WisdomLS wrote:
Very close to finishing painting my dominus class knight but I'm concerned that he will be ready just in time to be unusable in the game :-(

Bringing a dominus effectively rule you out of getting the full 6CP refund from the SH detachment.
Now the 3CP you pay is half your CP before any Relics or Traits.
I just don't see how the dominus is usable under these new rules - its not like they are particularly good as they don't have any synergy with anything else but I want to run a nice mix of classes.

Nephilim adds a rule that if you add a LoW auxiliary with the same army keyword than your warlord it costs 0 CPs If I read it correctly that's how you can add it

M.

Problem is though that you're hard pressed getting a Dominus in the pts limit AND get the refund for the super heavy detach since it doesnt count towards that, which is the problem in the first place.
You need 3 Questoris or 6 armigers and a TITANIC.. and you cant have your cake and eat it too at 2k. Its not a detachment slot problem, its a game design problem.

Actually you can get a Castellan/Valiant into a 2k list and still get your full amount of CP. The problem is, you trade a lot of flexibility to have that chonky gun platform, and on some boards a savvy opponent won't give it anything worthwhile to shoot at.

Sample list I just concocted in Battlescribe:

Basically 2 big and 6 small models. I skipped taking Cawl's Wrath, as I'm not sure it's worth a precious CP to take it anymore. I'm not convinced a list like this can make it to top tables; I personally think the sweet spot is 3 big and 4 small, and I'm not just saying that because I had some success with that configuration. I think it gives a good mix of board control and sheer firepower, as well as target saturation (in lists with fewer big guys, losing one hurts a lot more). I am tempted to pick up a Castellan and a couple more Armigers and give it a go just to see what happens, but I don't actually think it's that good.

 Thairne wrote:
Problem is though that you're hard pressed getting a Dominus in the pts limit AND get the refund for the super heavy detach since it doesnt count towards that, which is the problem in the first place.
You need 3 Questoris or 6 armigers and a TITANIC.. and you cant have your cake and eat it too at 2k. Its not a detachment slot problem, its a game design problem.

Is it that 6 armigers and a titanic model clocks in at around 1500 point leaving little points for the questories? Because the only synergies in the codex are between questoris and armingers? Unless you pay a 3 cp tax?

Ps: anybody who knows how i navigate this in battlescribe? I can not choose traits.

Thats pretty much it.
The Dominus hull has no synergy with anything.
In a codex where armigers are the true kings, you can hardly afford to pass them up.
A crusader is pretty much better in every regard compared to a castellan except raw firepower, but then the synergies and board presence make up for that.

The SHAUX change helps with the CP cost, but then again, why not exclude him in the original detachment? A dominus class is, imo, reserved for 2500+ games (and even THEN, he remains suboptimal to just more questoris/armigers)

Is there anywhere in the book were we can get advance and charge?

There are two sources.

First, you can choose Imperialis House Griffith. They have a house-specific Warlord Trait that allows that knight to advance and charge.

Second, you can use the Knight Errant's Bondsman ability to give 1-4 Armigers Advance and Charge with a +1 to Advance/Charge. If you go with a Mechanicus house and choose the Princeps Exalted Court ability for an Errant, you can choose another Questoris knight as one of your Bondsman choices which gives that knight Advance and Charge as well.

As far as I know, those are the only options, at least for right now.

Thanks. I did read it. But next time I tryed to read it I could not find it.

I own one dominus I am painting up. I quite got into the colourscheme (an old tomb king scheme) I am getting into the swing of it. I was looking into having an army roughly like this:

Paragon of Honour

Knight errant, Warlord Ion Bulwark, High Lord, Banner of Makarius Triumohant
Castelan, Revered Knight, Cawls Wrath
2 ranged armingers
4 melee arminger

Castelan on mobile fire support. Blob the melee armingers around the errant to give them a long threat range. Have the ranged armingers cap points.

I start with 3 hinour and benefit from 3 oaths. Hopefully it snowballs me.

One thing that occurred to me in regards to running a Tyrant is that you can put one in a Super Heavy Aux Detachment and it will be 0 CP as long as it shares army keywords.

bmsattler wrote:
One thing that occurred to me in regards to running a Tyrant is that you can put one in a Super Heavy Aux Detachment and it will be 0 CP as long as it shares army keywords.

I don't now if that helps. The Knight Errant (all questor-class) are all titanic.

Can I check battlescribe is saying forgeworld knights can't take warlord traits what stops you giving it one with the baron stratagem am I missing something or is BS wrong?

Taranis 3+4 seems to be the early winner; this list came third in a 79 player GT:

++ Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Imperial Knights) [108 PL, 2,000pts, 7CP] ++

+ Configuration [12CP] +

Chivalric Oath: Oath: Defend the Realm, Oath: Lay Low The Tyrants

Questor Allegiance: House Taranis, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War [108 PL, 2,000pts, -5CP] +

Armiger Helverins [16 PL, 310pts]
. Armiger Helverin [8 PL, 155pts]: 2x Armiger Autocannon, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Helverin [8 PL, 155pts]: 2x Armiger Autocannon, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber

Armiger Warglaives [16 PL, 290pts]
. Armiger Warglaive [8 PL, 145pts]: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chain-Cleaver, Thermal Spear
. Armiger Warglaive [8 PL, 145pts]: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chain-Cleaver, Thermal Spear

Knight Crusader [28 PL, 515pts, -2CP]: Exalted Court: Master Tactician [2 PL, 30pts], Heirloom: The Heart of Ion, Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP], Knight Baron [-1CP], Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Thermal Cannon, Titanic Feet, Warlord Trait (Taranis): Knight of Mars
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer

Knight Errant [23 PL, 425pts, -2CP]: Heirloom: Sanctuary, Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP], Knight Baron [-1CP], Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Thermal Cannon, Titanic Feet, Warlord Trait: Knight Seneschal

Knight Paladin [25 PL, 460pts, -1CP]: Character (Knight Lance), Exalted Court: Princeps [2 PL, 35pts], Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Revered Paragon [-1CP], Titanic Feet, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark, Warlord Trait: Revered Knight
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon

++ Total: [108 PL, 2,000pts, 7CP] ++

Given the drop to 6 CP, a couple of traits or heirlooms need to go, though.

U02dah4 wrote:
Can I check battlescribe is saying forgeworld knights can't take warlord traits what stops you giving it one with the baron stratagem am I missing something or is BS wrong?

Probably update your data, Knight Baron is available on Cerastus, Magaera/styrix and even Acastus Knights. You do need an IK warlord for that to work though.

I'll probably have to drop a relic at least from my GT-winning list. I figure if I start with 1 CP, then I get one in my opponent's turn (going second), I'll have enough that I can Rotate Ion Shields if necessary. Whereas if I go first, I'll get 2 additional CP (so 3 total turn 1) and can perhaps drop Calculated Targeting on something.

What is our default secondaries plan now after Nephilim? Importantly, we are now allowed to pick more than one faction secondary.

Stranglehold is gone but Yield No Ground seems like an autopick to replace it.

As for the second, Grind Them Down is good for Knights, but now has competition from Honour of the House. Has anyone tried that?

The third should probably be Renew the Oaths.

Obviously the second or the third can be replaced if the opposing army is soft to Abhor, Assassinate or Bring It Down.

Views?

I think I would swap out Yield No Ground before Renew the Oaths or Honor of the House. Nephilim changed it to only 1 point for each of the bullet points, though you can score it in the first turn now. Its still harder to max out and punishes you for using your superheavy ability to fall back and shoot/charge, and punishes you if you have enemy units near your deployment zone. Fast enemies like Eldar or Tyranids can just throw a unit at you each turn and pull you down 5 points easy. Its still worth considering, but not an auto take for me.

bmsattler wrote:
One thing that occurred to me in regards to running a Tyrant is that you can put one in a Super Heavy Aux Detachment and it will be 0 CP as long as it shares army keywords.

Yes, that works but you would still need 3+ Questoris or Titanic + 6 Armigers in your main detachment so I am not sure it helps. The difficulty is you cannot fit a Dominus + 3 Questoris + Armigers into 2000 points. Also if you want to take Dominus + Questoris + 6 Armigers you can do that in a standard Super-heavy detachment.