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I'm not declaring what is or isn't heresy. But the fluff is the fluff. Many books have fluff where especially fervent individuals (Sisters and Comissars) have killed people for just not believing in their specific modality of belief. In the Cain book, the other Comissar in charge of the Tallarns. Bemidji(?) is "A constant god botherer" who goes around challenging others to fights or straight up killing people for not enough belief. The Sisters Omnibus has the Cleric in the first book basically doing the same.

Almost like consistency in any facet of society is non-existent.

I mean, imagine if there were random individuals of a particular faith today that went around screaming at people for believing wrong or something…

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I mean, imagine if there were random individuals of a particular faith today that went around screaming at people for believing wrong or something…

Don't say stuff like that. If you do it will result in a 25 page thread and the word Nazi getting tossed around.

I’m just saying, it’s exactly the opposite of unrealistic that there are individuals or whole groups within the Imperium and even the Ecclesiarchy itself, that have wildly variant attitudes towards worship of Him on Terra. Realistically everything from people who still adhere to the Imperial Truth (most likely space marines and their serfs, also Custodes and SoS) through high days and holy days-only types to the fervent true believers and the outright fanatic zealots.

The Imperium does not have the time, and the Administratum does not have the budget, to individually police the attitude of every citizen. If it did, inquisitors wouldn’t be necessary to root out and identify aberrant cults.

There’s also the problem that if you went around incarcerating or executing everyone that failed to live up to standards espoused by the fanatics, you’d rapidly find yourself running out of people…

Or running out of fanatics, most likely

I mean, for a better part of the Series, Gman is trying to gauge whether or not his Militant apostolic is a fanatic or a a deluded psychopath. It reminds me a lot of the scene in "Constantine" where Gabriel is talking to John Wick, and Neo says "he's met god, he knows he exists" and Gabriel replies the act of believing without knowledge or reason is faith." So therein lays the dilema. Are Astartes truly "faithful" if they KNOW the emperor exists and grants miracles, but yet is not an actual god? Are the Sisters truly faithful if they KNOW their "God" grants miracles and exists? This is why The Progenium exists I think in a way, to winnow out the faithful from just merely fanatic or just exceptionally skilled.

This also kinda lends to my belief that Sisters are Made, not found. The average human cannot do what a Sister does without some Deus Ex Machina. The Progenium does something to the SoB "aspirants(?)" to make them able to do what they do with regularity. Which would explain why some exceptionally fervant women get pushed onto other careers. They simply don't have the "it" factor for whatever the SoB Process does to a human. Sorta how SM are made. They have to be genetically capable of assimilating with the implants.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, for a better part of the Series, Gman is trying to gauge whether or not his Militant apostolic is a fanatic or a a deluded psychopath. It reminds me a lot of the scene in "Constantine" where Gabriel is talking to John Wick, and Neo says "he's met god, he knows he exists" and Gabriel replies the act of believing without knowledge or reason is faith." So therein lays the dilema. Are Astartes truly "faithful" if they KNOW the emperor exists and grants miracles, but yet is not an actual god? Are the Sisters truly faithful if they KNOW their "God" grants miracles and exists? This is why The Progenium exists I think in a way, to winnow out the faithful from just merely fanatic or just exceptionally skilled.

Astartes don't generally believe in miracles and do not worship the Emperor as a God. He was a warrior, a leader, and their creator but He was still just a man.
The Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy very much believe in miracles and the divinity of the Emperor because they are religious.
The Schola exists to turn the orphans of Imperial officers and families into tools for the Imperium. Most Schola "graduates" end up working for the Administratum and it's only the exceptional candidates that get selected for the Ordos, Militarum, Assassins or Sisterhood.

This also kinda lends to my belief that Sisters are Made, not found. The average human cannot do what a Sister does without some Deus Ex Machina. The Progenium does something to the SoB "aspirants(?)" to make them able to do what they do with regularity. Which would explain why some exceptionally fervant women get pushed onto other careers. They simply don't have the "it" factor for whatever the SoB Process does to a human. Sorta how SM are made. They have to be genetically capable of assimilating with the implants.

Sisters only get Power Armour plugs. That's it. They are just buff and extremely religious humans. There's no special mutation or secret implant that makes them special, they just really believe in their God and sometimes manifest Living Saints.
Miracles are impossible to prove as actual things and that's the point. A convent of Sisters holds their priory while a Cannoness banishes a Daemon with her Rosarius? That's a miracle. Doesn't matter if the symbols of the Emperor have power against Daemons because He is the Anathema to their kind, clearly, it was His divine will that gave the Cannoness her power.
You keep trying to quantify faith in material terms but by doing so completely miss the idea.

 Gert wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, for a better part of the Series, Gman is trying to gauge whether or not his Militant apostolic is a fanatic or a a deluded psychopath. It reminds me a lot of the scene in "Constantine" where Gabriel is talking to John Wick, and Neo says "he's met god, he knows he exists" and Gabriel replies the act of believing without knowledge or reason is faith." So therein lays the dilema. Are Astartes truly "faithful" if they KNOW the emperor exists and grants miracles, but yet is not an actual god? Are the Sisters truly faithful if they KNOW their "God" grants miracles and exists? This is why The Progenium exists I think in a way, to winnow out the faithful from just merely fanatic or just exceptionally skilled.

Astartes don't generally believe in miracles and do not worship the Emperor as a God. He was a warrior, a leader, and their creator but He was still just a man.
The Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy very much believe in miracles and the divinity of the Emperor because they are religious.
The Schola exists to turn the orphans of Imperial officers and families into tools for the Imperium. Most Schola "graduates" end up working for the Administratum and it's only the exceptional candidates that get selected for the Ordos, Militarum, Assassins or Sisterhood.

This also kinda lends to my belief that Sisters are Made, not found. The average human cannot do what a Sister does without some Deus Ex Machina. The Progenium does something to the SoB "aspirants(?)" to make them able to do what they do with regularity. Which would explain why some exceptionally fervant women get pushed onto other careers. They simply don't have the "it" factor for whatever the SoB Process does to a human. Sorta how SM are made. They have to be genetically capable of assimilating with the implants.

Sisters only get Power Armour plugs. That's it. They are just buff and extremely religious humans. There's no special mutation or secret implant that makes them special, they just really believe in their God and sometimes manifest Living Saints.
Miracles are impossible to prove as actual things and that's the point. A convent of Sisters holds their priory while a Cannoness banishes a Daemon with her Rosarius? That's a miracle. Doesn't matter if the symbols of the Emperor have power against Daemons because He is the Anathema to their kind, clearly, it was His divine will that gave the Cannoness her power.
You keep trying to quantify faith in material terms but by doing so completely miss the idea.

Assertion. You have no clue what makes a Sororitas a Sororitas. That's like saying you know what makes the force. Or how Vampires are invisible. It's a completely fictional made up thing that has never been clearly or adequately explained in sufficient detail. A SoB could have Metaclorians shoved up her nose for all you or I or anyone knows. She could have a "SUPER SECRET SPECIAL PRAYER" said over her that gives her the ability to do the special non-human stuff she does.

No one here has the faintest clue aside from vague fluff rumors about what makes anything anything in the 40k universe. Astartes at least are clearly defined as KNOWING the emperor has Extra-ordinary powers that no other being in Humanity's history has ever had, but he is NOT a God. Only becuase it's clearly written that he told all the Primarchs he wasn't. And they passed it down.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Assertion. You have no clue what makes a Sororitas a Sororitas. That's like saying you know what makes the force. Or how Vampires are invisible. It's a completely fictional made up thing that has never been clearly or adequately explained in sufficient detail. A SoB could have Metaclorians shoved up her nose for all you or I or anyone knows. She could have a "SUPER SECRET SPECIAL PRAYER" said over her that gives her the ability to do the special non-human stuff she does.

We know exactly what makes a Sororitas because it's been consistently explained for years. All they are is a warrior-cult dedicated to the God Emperor that wears Power Armour. They don't have genetic enhancements or special powers beyond faith which is an unquantifiable concept. There is no way to succinctly say what does or does not make a miracle because that is how faith operates.
Sororitas are superhuman in the same way Olympic Gold medallists are superhuman or the Royal Marines, they train and are equipped with the best gear. Take away the religious aspect and the Sisters are just a warrior order.
You keep making assertions and headcanon then treating it as fact without anything to back your claims.

No one here has the faintest clue aside from vague fluff rumors about what makes anything anything in the 40k universe. Astartes at least are clearly defined as KNOWING the emperor has Extra-ordinary powers that no other being in Humanity's history has ever had, but he is NOT a God. Only becuase it's clearly written that he told all the Primarchs he wasn't. And they passed it down.

Most Astartes don't believe the Emperor is a god because they are conditioned into doing so and even then individuals can still believe He is divine, such as the Unnumbered Son of Dorn, Racej Lucerne, who was training with the Ecclesiarchy when he was taken as an aspirant by Cawl for the Primaris Project. Aspirants aren't told any "truth" that the Emperor isn't actually a god, they're just pumped full of indoctrination and conditioning to make them believe something new.
Everyone in the Imperium knows the Emperor has extraordinary abilities and immense power, the majority just view that as a sign of divinity.

Remember when you were in school.
Looking around at your classmates when you were at school. Its no different.
That dudes playing some sort of football, that dudette is smart as a whip. That MF is gonna run a underhive gang.

Not sure what you mean. Most of my classmates were always going to end up in a deskjob with XYZ corporation. Randomly assign the rest in government or university deskjobs instead.

The number one output of the Schola is Administratum drones so yeah that's pretty accurate.

There’s a question within this question which having scanned the thread I don’t think has been raised….

At what age does the selection happen?

Because that’s a pretty….let’s say interesting….factor to consider.

If a given Schola has an influx of wee girls, let’s say no more than 3 years old? The Sororitas may see them as Prime Candidates. Old enough to have some vague sense of loss regarding their parents, but still young enough to instil uncritical faith in.

It’s not even ruled out that Astartes Chapters might find recruits that. Possibly as a matter of desperation as they have their own sources, but a possibility all the same.

The Commissarit in turn kind of wants recruits it can turn into its own brand of firebrand fanatics.

Likewise The Inquisition. Though each Inquisitor’s own flavour of firebrand fanatic is going to vary quite wildly.

The Scions? I think this thread has done them a disservice. They’re not necessarily the scraps as such. Just the candidates the other wings of The Imperium seeing as harder to properly mould.

If a given student of the Schola is older? Possibly different criteria in turn.

If they enter they enter the Schola early enough I could imagine the "primary school" years being teaching them basics (reading, writing, and arithmetic) and also finding where they best fit. They would also look at their past academic history, especially for older kids new to the Schola, to see what path they are to be placed.

Or possibly a "sorting helmet"

It's 40k... I am sure it's a sorting skull fitted with a special machine spirit that analyses the brainwaves of the canditate and then shouts which job they will go and train for.

 Bobthehero wrote:
It's 40k... I am sure it's a sorting skull fitted with a special machine spirit that analyses the brainwaves of the canditate and then shouts which job they will go and train for.

Since it is 40K though, it does so via painfully aggressive nano-wires that drill through the skull to get to the chewy centre. And it shouts in an ancient, barely understood dialect from a now-dead (exterminatus’d) planet. And the vox-caster is glitchy, dropping every third or fourth syllable.

That genuinely sounds like more work than is necessary. Which in itself is somewhat 40K.

But a Toddler is typically a Blank Slate, ideal for raising into whatever you desire. I don’t want to present Real World examples because not touching that with a ten foot pole, and I’m sure you can conjure examples from your own imagination!

 Gert wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, for a better part of the Series, Gman is trying to gauge whether or not his Militant apostolic is a fanatic or a a deluded psychopath. It reminds me a lot of the scene in "Constantine" where Gabriel is talking to John Wick, and Neo says "he's met god, he knows he exists" and Gabriel replies the act of believing without knowledge or reason is faith." So therein lays the dilema. Are Astartes truly "faithful" if they KNOW the emperor exists and grants miracles, but yet is not an actual god? Are the Sisters truly faithful if they KNOW their "God" grants miracles and exists? This is why The Progenium exists I think in a way, to winnow out the faithful from just merely fanatic or just exceptionally skilled.

Astartes don't generally believe in miracles and do not worship the Emperor as a God. He was a warrior, a leader, and their creator but He was still just a man.
The Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy very much believe in miracles and the divinity of the Emperor because they are religious.
The Schola exists to turn the orphans of Imperial officers and families into tools for the Imperium. Most Schola "graduates" end up working for the Administratum and it's only the exceptional candidates that get selected for the Ordos, Militarum, Assassins or Sisterhood.

This also kinda lends to my belief that Sisters are Made, not found. The average human cannot do what a Sister does without some Deus Ex Machina. The Progenium does something to the SoB "aspirants(?)" to make them able to do what they do with regularity. Which would explain why some exceptionally fervant women get pushed onto other careers. They simply don't have the "it" factor for whatever the SoB Process does to a human. Sorta how SM are made. They have to be genetically capable of assimilating with the implants.

Sisters only get Power Armour plugs. That's it. They are just buff and extremely religious humans. There's no special mutation or secret implant that makes them special, they just really believe in their God and sometimes manifest Living Saints.
Miracles are impossible to prove as actual things and that's the point. A convent of Sisters holds their priory while a Cannoness banishes a Daemon with her Rosarius? That's a miracle. Doesn't matter if the symbols of the Emperor have power against Daemons because He is the Anathema to their kind, clearly, it was His divine will that gave the Cannoness her power.
You keep trying to quantify faith in material terms but by doing so completely miss the idea.

Good points and there was a recent story where the Tau captured a Sister and tried to understand her Faith which was along the same lines - it did not go well for them - also people forget that Living Saints are not restricted to the Sisterhood

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Gert wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, for a better part of the Series, Gman is trying to gauge whether or not his Militant apostolic is a fanatic or a a deluded psychopath. It reminds me a lot of the scene in "Constantine" where Gabriel is talking to John Wick, and Neo says "he's met god, he knows he exists" and Gabriel replies the act of believing without knowledge or reason is faith." So therein lays the dilema. Are Astartes truly "faithful" if they KNOW the emperor exists and grants miracles, but yet is not an actual god? Are the Sisters truly faithful if they KNOW their "God" grants miracles and exists? This is why The Progenium exists I think in a way, to winnow out the faithful from just merely fanatic or just exceptionally skilled.

Astartes don't generally believe in miracles and do not worship the Emperor as a God. He was a warrior, a leader, and their creator but He was still just a man.
The Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy very much believe in miracles and the divinity of the Emperor because they are religious.
The Schola exists to turn the orphans of Imperial officers and families into tools for the Imperium. Most Schola "graduates" end up working for the Administratum and it's only the exceptional candidates that get selected for the Ordos, Militarum, Assassins or Sisterhood.

This also kinda lends to my belief that Sisters are Made, not found. The average human cannot do what a Sister does without some Deus Ex Machina. The Progenium does something to the SoB "aspirants(?)" to make them able to do what they do with regularity. Which would explain why some exceptionally fervant women get pushed onto other careers. They simply don't have the "it" factor for whatever the SoB Process does to a human. Sorta how SM are made. They have to be genetically capable of assimilating with the implants.

Sisters only get Power Armour plugs. That's it. They are just buff and extremely religious humans. There's no special mutation or secret implant that makes them special, they just really believe in their God and sometimes manifest Living Saints.
Miracles are impossible to prove as actual things and that's the point. A convent of Sisters holds their priory while a Cannoness banishes a Daemon with her Rosarius? That's a miracle. Doesn't matter if the symbols of the Emperor have power against Daemons because He is the Anathema to their kind, clearly, it was His divine will that gave the Cannoness her power.
You keep trying to quantify faith in material terms but by doing so completely miss the idea.

Good points and there was a recent story where the Tau captured a Sister and tried to understand her Faith which was along the same lines - it did not go well for them - also people forget that Living Saints are not restricted to the Sisterhood

It is still the case, however, that some novitiates will not make it to full battle Sister due to rejecting the suit-interface implants we now know sisters use. This isn't going to be purely genetic (most immunological conditions appear to be acquired after birth), but it will happen occasionally.

We know rejecting bionics happens in 40k- there is a Guard commander in Gunheads who is essentially crippled due to rejecting his bionics, and basically spends the whole time in agonising pain.

Those that reject the implants probably get diverted into the non-militant roles if they survive.

There are other ways to wear power armour – not every suit needs implants – but they are less effective so I can see that happening for sure.
Also don’t forget that there are roles in the sisterhood that don’t need the deep and fervent faith the battle sisters espouse; the orders famulous are basically bene gesserit after all.

The Schola is run by the Ecclesiarchy (with certain faculty being assigned from "graduate" roles such as Gaunt's Commissar headmaster) so regardless of the final role a Schola graduate finds themselves in, they're going to be more dedicated to the Emperor than a bog standard citizen. The students still need to learn basic skills in order to function in the roles the Schola will place them in and it roughly seems that it's the teenage years where they specialise in "departments".
As for Astartes, the students at the Schola have been "programmed" in a way that isn't beneficial to a Chapter in most cases. They're too religious and too aligned with the Imperial power structure to be of much use. Hive Gangers, barbarian tribesmen or even those from the Ultramar training academies are going to be easier to indoctrinate into the ways of the Chapter than someone who has spent their entire childhood sticking to a very rigid structure.

It seems incredibly bad fore-thinking to put the Sisters initiates into the same training ground as the Commissars, and the Scions. Like, Cain goes into the injuries and deaths that happen in inter-school rivalries, where the Sisters beat everyone else to a pulp. Isn't that wasting of potential, to sacrifice Scion and Commissar stock to violent scrums with the Sisters? Surely they should be kept entirely separate...

Also, Cain describes them (sisters) as 6' well muscled women, around the age of 13-15, so where are all these women coming from? That's well beyond the average height for even a male of that age. Are Sisters given growth hormones or genetic therapy from birth/young ages?

You do remember Cain is a massive liar right? If he's getting beat up by girls of course they're going to be 6' tall Amazons who just so happen to be 13-15.
I'm not suggesting that there aren't any that don't fit that description but using the book series that is told from the accounts of a notorious liar as hard evidence is a bit silly.

Yeah, Cain is absolutely the worst source for anything. If he said the sky was blue I’d check what planet we’re on first.

Quite possibly growth hormones and adaptive surgery. It’s another one of those things where if the background doesn’t explicitly exclude it, it remains a possibility.

Yes but it's best not to enter the realm of "if it's not explicit it might be true" because then we get some really dumb and/or disturbing things popping up.

But that’s where the fun comes in!

I mean, we know Necromunda as a world is able to stitch muscle onto folk, and create genhanced clones.

So I think we can reasonably infer from that other source some level of tinkering and tweaking is well within reach of the Schola.

I'm not sure we can. The Imperium isn't adverse to a little genetic tinkering, we've seen that but the Sororitas pride themselves on their purity of body and spirit. If they're using chems to make their recruits bigger and tougher does that not fly in the face of that purity? A Sister should be strong by the grace of the God-Emperor and there is no shame in serving in a non-combat role within the Sisterhood if a recruit doesn't meet the physical parameters. With the millions of Schola prospects plus any local additions, genetic modification seems a moot point. Physical attributes come secondary to religious zeal after all.
Plus, it's the Cain books.

Well, hypocrisy does tend to go hand in hand with religious extremism.

Simply bill it as Purification, because these are sanctified and we asked the emperor and he totally said it was ok now get it down you there’s a good Lass.