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Tau, no.

Eldar yes. They manipulate humans all the time, and indeed everything else they can.

I'm not sure if the Tau have the reach to pull that off much, but I am 99% certain Aeldari have used humans in that way. Cannot recall any examples off the top of my head though.

The Cabal in the Heresy to a degree, although it didn't work there were Aeldari as part of the group.
There's stuff all over the place about Craftworlds manipulating Ork Waaaaghh's or Hive Fleet tendrils away from their path and into the Imperium instead.
In Brotherhood of the Snake, the Drukhari use Ork "relics" to cause a massive influx into the Reef Stars where the Iron Snakes are stationed. The Snakes eventually turn the hordes away using the Drukhari's tactic against them, however.

I love the idea of "luring" a whole battlebarge worth of troopers to a Chaos infected world, and letting them slaughter each other, then picking up the actual prize after. This is essentially the entire plot of DoW1, only it backfired spectacularly for all the races/factions involved, except the orks, who basically just had a good time Waaaahing all over the place. Which was in the end, Exterminatus'd anyway. But even then Gorgutz survives.

There's that Gaunt's Ghosts bit where the Eldar are trying to close a webway gate and they use the Ghosts to help defend against Chaos forces. The troopers have their minds fuddled so they reckon they are defending Tanith rather than the Eldar.

I think there's a fair few other instances of that, it's what the Eldar do best.

That instance was more a Farseer's plan going to dog turds, and them reaching out to fool the ghosts into becomming unwitting pawns. It was more an oh crap plan, then a long thought out master deception. The Ghosts were only in the area by accident if I recall. As in they were following the lead of a xenos inquisitor that was trying to study them.

 Haighus wrote:
I'm not sure if the Tau have the reach to pull that off much, but I am 99% certain Aeldari have used humans in that way. Cannot recall any examples off the top of my head though.

Armageddon springs to mind, a strange pattern of "mishaps" happen to Ork leaders resulting in Ghaz ending up in charge and unleashing the Waaa against a vital human world resulting in the IoM having to fight the horde rather than endanger one pointy ears life

Isn't weaponizing the imperium how Vect organized his power grab? I remember him successfully luring some marine ship into the dark city so they'd kill off the opposition.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
So, to turn the question on its head:

Have there been attempts by the Eldar or Tau to weaponize Humans?

It's heavily suggested that the Eldar already helped advance the Tau; or at least gave them a good kick-start in going down the right pathways and might have helped hide them for some time.



As noted earlier, the big downside in trying to use the Tyranids as an anti-chaos weapon is that Tyranids strip worlds of everything they want. Even down to minerals being stripped out if the fleet stays there long enough to feed. The Imperium ends up with worlds that are worthless. They'd require vast investment in minerals, materials, gasses and more to make them habitable worlds again. This is generations of work to repair. They've simply not the time. Plus in the end they've lost a Chaos infestation but gained a more powerful Hive Fleet to contend with so they've still got to deal with that.

That's the risk in using one foe to take on another, the one that wins ends up the stronger. Or in the case of Ork VS Tyranid they BOTH end up stronger!

 Overread wrote:
It's heavily suggested that the Eldar already helped advance the Tau; or at least gave them a good kick-start in going down the right pathways and might have helped hide them for some time.

I've seen this throw about for a long time now and I wondered where it came from.

Unofficial, but The Maker's Cult does a whole line of AdMech-controled zombie mecha Nids for 3d printing.

https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-print-models/miniatures/sci-fi/iron-hive-termax-and-hormax-builder

 Gert wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It's heavily suggested that the Eldar already helped advance the Tau; or at least gave them a good kick-start in going down the right pathways and might have helped hide them for some time.

I've seen this throw about for a long time now and I wondered where it came from.

I seem to recall that it might be one of those 1 or 2 sentence snippets of lore that come in codex in the corners and such. Like a lot of background lore I've a feeling it might be hints/suggestions/supposition/guesswork from characters in the setting and such. Much like a lot of early Tyranid Lore was Imperial reports on them.


I think it also "fits" a lot with the setting in terms of how the Tau were able to advance technologically so quickly and survive when their world was originally set for colonisation by the Imperium. Yes the Imperium loses references and worlds in its bureaucratic mountains; but at the same time its a huge chance that that world was forgotten for long enough that the Tau could establish themselves as a space power viable enough to actually survive and make an impact at the Galactic scale. The idea that the Eldar, or at least individuals within their Race, enabled and helped really does fit very nicely.

Also we know Eldar already manipulate other races to suit their own interests; so it could be Tau started out along this path on their own and Eldar guided them with nudges and pushes here and there in secret. Perhaps not orchestrating the rise, but encouraging, enabling and helping.

Xenology suggested that Eldar kidnapped a Q'orl queen, and modified her pheromone-producing organ used to control the Q'orl, which was then used to create the Ethereal class and unite the Tau.

It notes Tau have very sensitive noses.

Apparently, the aim was to elevate a race resistant to the influence of Chaos. Tau have puny souls and are not appetising to Chaos, so quite resistant naturally.

The T'au homeworld wasn't just "lost", the entire area was blocked off by a Warp Storm, and as far as I know the Aeldari aren't exactly in the market for ruining realspace with a breach in the fabric of reality nor do they have the power to do so without risking their own souls in the process.
It's not like the T'au empire is a huge threat to the Imperium either. The empire is certainly a thorn in the Imperium's paw but just a thorn, with only the thousands of other threats keeping the Imperium from conquering its territories and eradicating the various Xenos in the region. In fact, the only reason the first Damocles Gulf Crusade stopped was due to Behemoth entering the Galaxy.

I also find people misunderstand the advancement of the T'au. They weren't stone-age savages, they were a tribal culture with primitive firearms and large cities comparable to perhaps 12th or 13th Century China, Europe, or the Middle East. The Mont'au (essentially a dark age of warfare and plague) ended in 791.M36 with the advent of the Ethereals and Greater Good but the T'au didn't become a space-faring race until 502.M37. It took another one and a half thousand years before the 8 Septs were founded and races such as the Kroot assimilated by 936.M38, and it wasn't until 700.M41 that the T'au crossed the borders of the Imperium. With a fully united society working towards a common goal, a little under a thousand years isn't unreasonable to reach space flight. Humanity went from Bolt Action rifles in the early 1900s to splitting the atom by 1944 and the first manned space flight by 1961, and we were actively trying to eradicate each other.
I think people look at the "modern" T'au (or at least the 5th Ed T'au) and think that all the high tech stuff was there from the start when the only things we know for sure is that by 844.M38 the T'au roughly had their 5th Ed army roster when they helped the Kroot liberate their homeworld.

I just wanted to know if there was anything concrete or if (like so many bits of background) it's another internet theory that gained loads of traction to the point where people think it's real.

 Gert wrote:

I just wanted to know if there was anything concrete or if (like so many bits of background) it's another internet theory that gained loads of traction to the point where people think it's real.

It is the in-character conjecture of an Inquisitor's biology adept, claiming to have noticed similarities between the Ethereal's forehead diamond shaped organ and one on that of a Qorl queen, then hypothesizing Eldar involvement after also finding out about Harlequins supposedly kidnapping a Qorl queen in the past.

As in-character theory, it is fallible. That is the greatest problem readers seem to have: differentiating between out of character omniscient narrator giving out statements of how the 40K universe and history really is versus an in-character theory that is potentially false, either entirely or in part. All too often readers treat in-character theory as 100% true and repeat it on the internet as if it were omniscient narrator given truth.


My personal headcanon which I openly acknowledge as just that, is that it is not the Eldar, as they are not known for producing things like warp storms, but rather remnant Old Ones or maybe even just one Old One. The original Necron Codex said remnant degenerate Old One descendants still existed in the galaxy, and to use WHFB Lizardmen to represent them. The Xenology book mentions one Old One, Qah, that still got up to manipulating races and was again thought by this adept to be the creator of the Hrud. The original WHFB linkage that was downplayed from 2nd edition onwards was that the WHFB world was like a preserve of the Old Ones, with samples of their chosen races. My headcanon is that Qah or someone like Qah did the same with the T'au, except instead of breeding for more psychic ability they went the opposite path, to try and beat the Necrons at their own game of mastery of realspace technology.

So just the usual then?

 Gert wrote:
So just the usual then?

It's not an internet theory. It originated in a Black Library book as the in-character theory of an adept. However the internet runs with it as if it were proven true, which it has not been.

My understanding of old Tau lore was that when the big local warp storm had ended the Tau had hyper evolved. Both culturally, technologaly and in evolution. The imperium knew about them before but they where not even a blip on the radar. Then when they ran into them again they where a major player in a very local part of space.

We do know from the new Squats that they thought rail technology to the Tau.

The Eldar don't need to create a warp storm, if they can predict and take advantage of one that will happen.

The original background left it as mysterious about how the Ethereals suddenly appeared in the darkest days of the race's history and just took over. Individuals may as well think its the Eldar if it makes them happy.

 Gert wrote:
The Anphelion Project was set up to try and find weaknesses in the Tyranid hyper-evolution but the Nid's ended up breaking out and destroying the facility as well as the Inquisitorial investigation force sent to discover why contact had been lost.
Like Jurassic Park but with gribblies instead of dinos.

Came here to say this. There's a whole Imperial Armour book dedicated to it. Fantastic read. Imperial Armour 4 from memory.

Jarms48 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The Anphelion Project was set up to try and find weaknesses in the Tyranid hyper-evolution but the Nid's ended up breaking out and destroying the facility as well as the Inquisitorial investigation force sent to discover why contact had been lost.
Like Jurassic Park but with gribblies instead of dinos.

Came here to say this. There's a whole Imperial Armour book dedicated to it. Fantastic read. Imperial Armour 4 from memory.

Except they have a continuity error in the book. They talk about fighting against the Tyranids since 745.M41 and it is set 850.M41. Only problem is that Behemoth fought the Ultramarines in 745.M41, true, but then afterwards it is explicitly stated that everything died down until 992.M41 when Kraken appeared on the scene and showed that the Tyranid threat had not gone and that Behemoth was not just the sole fleet.

Iracundus wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The Anphelion Project was set up to try and find weaknesses in the Tyranid hyper-evolution but the Nid's ended up breaking out and destroying the facility as well as the Inquisitorial investigation force sent to discover why contact had been lost.
Like Jurassic Park but with gribblies instead of dinos.

Came here to say this. There's a whole Imperial Armour book dedicated to it. Fantastic read. Imperial Armour 4 from memory.

Except they have a continuity error in the book. They talk about fighting against the Tyranids since 745.M41 and it is set 850.M41. Only problem is that Behemoth fought the Ultramarines in 745.M41, true, but then afterwards it is explicitly stated that everything died down until 992.M41 when Kraken appeared on the scene and showed that the Tyranid threat had not gone and that Behemoth was not just the sole fleet.

I thought there was a significant clean-up operation following Behemoth, with fighting against feral Tyranid populations left on defended worlds? Places like Calth.

 Haighus wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The Anphelion Project was set up to try and find weaknesses in the Tyranid hyper-evolution but the Nid's ended up breaking out and destroying the facility as well as the Inquisitorial investigation force sent to discover why contact had been lost.
Like Jurassic Park but with gribblies instead of dinos.

Came here to say this. There's a whole Imperial Armour book dedicated to it. Fantastic read. Imperial Armour 4 from memory.

Except they have a continuity error in the book. They talk about fighting against the Tyranids since 745.M41 and it is set 850.M41. Only problem is that Behemoth fought the Ultramarines in 745.M41, true, but then afterwards it is explicitly stated that everything died down until 992.M41 when Kraken appeared on the scene and showed that the Tyranid threat had not gone and that Behemoth was not just the sole fleet.

I thought there was a significant clean-up operation following Behemoth, with fighting against feral Tyranid populations left on defended worlds? Places like Calth.

Within the book, there are multiple references to "Tyranid hive fleets" and ongoing losses to them, not feral organisms,. This contradicts the original timeline, which had things fading to quiet until 992.M41. Kraken was when the Imperium realized the Tyranid threat was more than just Behemoth. A better time to set the book would have been either after Kraken or Leviathan.

Shocker. A Warhammer publication has timeline issues.

GW has horrible record for keeping their timeline straight and I don't mean little tiny obscure bits of trivia but major errors that I easily spotted without even trying to nitpick. I recall correcting Gav Thorpe on the big continuity error in his Jain Zarr Eldar novel with regards to Vect's rise to power, Shaa-dom, and the Heresy that is not easily correctable. In a nutshell, Gav wanted it to be set post-Fall but pre-Heresy, but shows Vect in a dominant position of power in Commorragh and with Shaa-dom destroyed. These latter events occurred in M35 and M37 respectively so are not compatible with it also being set pre-Heresy.

Iracundus wrote:

Within the book, there are multiple references to "Tyranid hive fleets" and ongoing losses to them, not feral organisms,. This contradicts the original timeline, which had things fading to quiet until 992.M41. Kraken was when the Imperium realized the Tyranid threat was more than just Behemoth. A better time to set the book would have been either after Kraken or Leviathan.

The original timeline is incorrect these days. New books not only have retconned Behemoth at still being around, but also introduced the Tiamet and Ouroboros Hive Fleets that preceded Behemoth by millennia, and many other minor fleets like Naga and Gorgon and who knows how many else.

 Tyran wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Within the book, there are multiple references to "Tyranid hive fleets" and ongoing losses to them, not feral organisms,. This contradicts the original timeline, which had things fading to quiet until 992.M41. Kraken was when the Imperium realized the Tyranid threat was more than just Behemoth. A better time to set the book would have been either after Kraken or Leviathan.

The original timeline is incorrect these days. New books not only have retconned Behemoth at still being around, but also introduced the Tiamet and Ouroboros Hive Fleets that preceded Behemoth by millennia, and many other minor fleets like Naga and Gorgon and who knows how many else.

The introduction of fleets like Tiamet and Ouroboros does not contradict the timeline. Note I specifically stated that Kraken was when the Imperium became aware of the Tyranids being more than just Behemoth. Since then the Imperium seems to have realized past contacts or quiescent fleets like Tiamet exist. However it does not change the original point, that Behemoth finished and even though there might have been scattered remnants, there certainly were no widespread Tyrannic wars straining the Imperium as the book seems to make reference to. The Imperium did not begin girding up for war with the Tyranids until after Kraken, as stated in the original Epic: Hive War for Epic 2nd edition.

Iracundus wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Within the book, there are multiple references to "Tyranid hive fleets" and ongoing losses to them, not feral organisms,. This contradicts the original timeline, which had things fading to quiet until 992.M41. Kraken was when the Imperium realized the Tyranid threat was more than just Behemoth. A better time to set the book would have been either after Kraken or Leviathan.

The original timeline is incorrect these days. New books not only have retconned Behemoth at still being around, but also introduced the Tiamet and Ouroboros Hive Fleets that preceded Behemoth by millennia, and many other minor fleets like Naga and Gorgon and who knows how many else.

The introduction of fleets like Tiamet and Ouroboros does not contradict the timeline. Note I specifically stated that Kraken was when the Imperium became aware of the Tyranids being more than just Behemoth. Since then the Imperium seems to have realized past contacts or quiescent fleets like Tiamet exist. However it does not change the original point, that Behemoth finished and even though there might have been scattered remnants, there certainly were no widespread Tyrannic wars straining the Imperium as the book seems to make reference to.

Kinda depends on the exact words and points of view the books uses, because the IoM was losing worlds to the Hive Fleets, that was a fact even if most of the IoM wasn't aware of that fact.

 Tyran wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Within the book, there are multiple references to "Tyranid hive fleets" and ongoing losses to them, not feral organisms,. This contradicts the original timeline, which had things fading to quiet until 992.M41. Kraken was when the Imperium realized the Tyranid threat was more than just Behemoth. A better time to set the book would have been either after Kraken or Leviathan.

The original timeline is incorrect these days. New books not only have retconned Behemoth at still being around, but also introduced the Tiamet and Ouroboros Hive Fleets that preceded Behemoth by millennia, and many other minor fleets like Naga and Gorgon and who knows how many else.

The introduction of fleets like Tiamet and Ouroboros does not contradict the timeline. Note I specifically stated that Kraken was when the Imperium became aware of the Tyranids being more than just Behemoth. Since then the Imperium seems to have realized past contacts or quiescent fleets like Tiamet exist. However it does not change the original point, that Behemoth finished and even though there might have been scattered remnants, there certainly were no widespread Tyrannic wars straining the Imperium as the book seems to make reference to.

Kinda depends on the exact words and points of view the books uses, because the IoM was losing worlds to the Hive Fleets, that was a fact even if most of the IoM wasn't aware of that fact.

It may be a fact that the Imperium might have lost worlds centuries before Behemoth without realizing they were lost to Tyranids but that's irrelevant to the point, which was that Anphelion Project has a continuity error making reference to widespread Tyrannic wars between 745.M41 and 850.M41, when such things did not occur until after Kraken at the earliest, which was 992.M41.

Unfortunately correcting this would not be as as simple as switching the date numbers. The problem is Carab Culln who is in the book, but appears 54 years later at a higher rank, as Chapter Master, in the Badab War, which was 904-912.M41. His central role in the plot of both conflicts prevents shifting of the order of the two events.

Lexicanum has the Anphelion incident placed in 850.M41 and the First Tyrannic War in 745.M41.
The timeline seems fine to me unless Lex got it wrong.