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Andykp wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Andykp wrote:

You ever been to Britain? Yiu have some odd ideas about it.

Yes...? What are you getting at.

Just find your description of the UK as odd? Never sure how accurate the flags on dakka are to say where a poster is but I don’t recognise your description of the uk, as a lifelong resident I Find it at odds with what is actually happening here. But maybe you have different experiences from me so who knows.

For what it is worth, I had the same reaction as you. Not to dismiss Hecaton's perspective, but it seemed very odd.

There is an inkling of anti catholic sentiment in the uk but i wouldnt say anymore so than any other protestant country and it is not something you would likely come across on any given day unless you were going around asking people.

ccs wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
"Present day" when 40K was being written as (amongst other things!) a satire of UK politics was late 1980s anyway, not literally now now.

It's maybe more accurate to say the original themes of 40K were established as part of the whole counter-cultural punk/anarchist reaction to Thatcher's Britain.

It was a time when Warhammer Fantasy had an army of heroic dwarf miners led by 'Arka Zargul', let's not forget.

I doubt half+ of the readers here have any context for Arka Zargul....

Read this for context. Particularly the section under the McDeath cover.
https://wearethemutants.com/2019/01/14/when-warhammer-was-radical-the-egalitarian-origins-of-the-fantasy-battle-game/

That article was an interesting read!

Dai wrote:
There is an inkling of anti catholic sentiment in the uk but i wouldnt say anymore so than any other protestant country and it is not something you would likely come across on any given day unless you were going around asking people.

To be fair, I was watching (well, someone else had it on, and had to listen to) some of the Jubilee coverage yesterday and whoever was being interviewed (didn't catch the name, just a former UK minister of whatever) was asked about the international reaction, and went through the normal spiel about the special relationship with the US, France and then really choked on the start of an anti-Spanish diatribe that got cut off. It was very strange. Especially since, during my time living in the UK, Spaniards and religion never really came up. Street preachers (and campus religious organizations) were rarer than here, and most people just quietly avoided them.

Umbros wrote:

Andykp wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Andykp wrote:

You ever been to Britain? Yiu have some odd ideas about it.

Yes...? What are you getting at.

Just find your description of the UK as odd? Never sure how accurate the flags on dakka are to say where a poster is but I don’t recognise your description of the uk, as a lifelong resident I Find it at odds with what is actually happening here. But maybe you have different experiences from me so who knows.

For what it is worth, I had the same reaction as you. Not to dismiss Hecaton's perspective, but it seemed very odd.

Maybe he will enlighten us, i get the feeling the UK is a pretty liberal place, few nob heads at either end of the political spectrum but we are definitely open to having at a laugh at our own expense. Which is kind of what 40k grew out of. As said before, satire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

Dai wrote:
There is an inkling of anti catholic sentiment in the uk but i wouldnt say anymore so than any other protestant country and it is not something you would likely come across on any given day unless you were going around asking people.

To be fair, I was watching (well, someone else had it on, and had to listen to) some of the Jubilee coverage yesterday and whoever was being interviewed (didn't catch the name, just a former UK minister of whatever) was asked about the international reaction, and went through the normal spiel about the special relationship with the US, France and then really choked on the start of an anti-Spanish diatribe that got cut off. It was very strange. Especially since, during my time living in the UK, Spaniards and religion never really came up. Street preachers (and campus religious organizations) were rarer than here, and most people just quietly avoided them.

The only time us brits get bothered about Spanish things now a days is around fishing quotas and Gibraltar. And those feelings are mutual. Certainly not about the church.

Andykp wrote:

Just find your description of the UK as odd? Never sure how accurate the flags on dakka are to say where a poster is but I don’t recognise your description of the uk, as a lifelong resident I Find it at odds with what is actually happening here. But maybe you have different experiences from me so who knows.

I'm not saying that Brits hate the Spanish or anything. I'm just saying that there's some elements among the traditionalist wing of British culture that like to point to real and imagined historical excesses of the Spanish as part of their national founding myth, more or less. The same way there's elements of traditionalist US culture over here that still cleave to that "manifest destiny" idea.

Hankovitch wrote:
The inquisition

The cult of death and martyrdom and the skull/skeleton symbology that comes from it

Saints, reliquaries, icons, and other religious fetishism

Bloated, international religious bureaucracy mired in politics and money

Giant hats and ridiculous outfits

Cults of bodily mortification, and self-purification through suffering, including flagellation

None of these are necessarily unique to Catholicism, but their inclusion in 40k is a very obvious pastiche of Catholic images and historical elements.

Almost all of those things are either non catholic specific or outright now based on catholicism. The way the imperial church wears itself for example is not the look of catholic clergy, but X-XIIth century byzantine bishops. You could say the same thing about the syrian eastern church or the etiopian church and it would be true too. Often to larger degrees.

And the religious fetishism claim is just bizzar, because either all religious elements can be called that. Catholicism doesn't use any fetishs. The imperial church does, but because of the lack fo a single rite one could say it has as many as they are local versions of the imperial cult. And those are as numerous as there are planetery systems int he setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:

There is also a distinct lack of Pope .

Now I understand that not in every country religion is an obligatory subject you have 2-4 hours up until the end of highschool, but all it takes is to google something like Roman Clergy looks over ages, and it takes minutes to notice that the similarities between the model or how imperial cardinals/bishops are shown and catholic clergy, is a kin to that and what a catholic bishop wears and what an official garb of a university professor is.

Plus I was talking about structure of the church. The imperial church does not have a Pope, its representative to the council on terra isn't one. The whole structure of the church, is not just different, which would be understandable considering we are talking about a church spaning entire planet systems, but it is also differently anchored in the law system. A catholic priest, aside for the vattican city, is not a goverment official. Not now, and in the past this was only true for place like Imperial Russia, where the the assumption is that you can not be a cleric of any rank without being a goverment official at the same time. And the very specific situation of communist China were technicaly 2 separate catholic churches exist, but only one still has the apostolic blessing with the state one losing it in the end of 70 due to a suddent death of 4 bishops in a very short time.


And as a model itself goes, it looks more like an a old faither wearing a Koukoulion, and for some reason having a non religious symbol on his mitra. But maybe an eagle and a snake is a religious symbol in the empire. And the only bishop I can think of who ever used a mace was Odon, but he was a rather unbishoply bishop, something even the popes pointed out.

Karol wrote:

Hankovitch wrote:
The inquisition

The cult of death and martyrdom and the skull/skeleton symbology that comes from it

Saints, reliquaries, icons, and other religious fetishism

Bloated, international religious bureaucracy mired in politics and money

Giant hats and ridiculous outfits

Cults of bodily mortification, and self-purification through suffering, including flagellation

None of these are necessarily unique to Catholicism, but their inclusion in 40k is a very obvious pastiche of Catholic images and historical elements.

Almost all of those things are either non catholic specific or outright now based on catholicism. The way the imperial church wears itself for example is not the look of catholic clergy, but X-XIIth century byzantine bishops. You could say the same thing about the syrian eastern church or the etiopian church and it would be true too. Often to larger degrees.

And the religious fetishism claim is just bizzar, because either all religious elements can be called that. Catholicism doesn't use any fetishs. The imperial church does, but because of the lack fo a single rite one could say it has as many as they are local versions of the imperial cult. And those are as numerous as there are planetery systems int he setting.

Are you Catholic?
random guess with high potential.

I am ortodox.

Karol wrote:
I am ortodox.

Then recuse yourself from this discussion.
It's pretty clear you're on the defensive.

On the defensive? All I am pointing out that the only way to call the imperial church catholic is for someone to either not know much about catholicism or don't like it for some reason.

Heck I would even say that the anglican church with the ruler as its head, is more similar to the imperial one. But historicaly the imperial church in both looks and the way it is orgenised is the closest to either the Russian church post the 1721 reform, if one finds organisation more important, or XI-XIIth century byznatine empire ortodox church, if someone is more inclined to follow the looks rout.

Karol wrote:
On the defensive? All I am pointing out that the only way to call the imperial church catholic is for someone to either not know much about catholicism or don't like it for some reason.

Heck I would even say that the anglican church with the ruler as its head, is more similar to the imperial one. But historicaly the imperial church in both looks and the way it is orgenised is the closest to either the Russian church post the 1721 reform, if one finds organisation more important, or XI-XIIth century byznatine empire ortodox church, if someone is more inclined to follow the looks rout.

"You must be a lot of fun at parties"

I don't go to parties. Don't have time for them attending sport school.

Karol wrote:
I don't go to parties. Don't have time for them attending sport school.

Wait you go to sport school? Is there any way you can make comparisons between your experiences there and playing 40k?

 Just_Breathe wrote:

Karol wrote:
I am ortodox.

Then recuse yourself from this discussion.
It's pretty clear you're on the defensive.

I'm pretty sure you don't get to decide who gets to participate in threads. Not to mention I'm not sure how being Catholic requires you to speak about the topic? Pretty sure that would invalidate a lot of the posters here.

Karol wrote:
On the defensive? All I am pointing out that the only way to call the imperial church catholic is for someone to either not know much about catholicism or don't like it for some reason.

Heck I would even say that the anglican church with the ruler as its head, is more similar to the imperial one. But historicaly the imperial church in both looks and the way it is orgenised is the closest to either the Russian church post the 1721 reform, if one finds organisation more important, or XI-XIIth century byznatine empire ortodox church, if someone is more inclined to follow the looks rout.

Let me just say when I visit (catholic) churches from the middle ages or baroque era in Germany the Inspiration for 40K becomes extremely obvious. Even the Cult of Death sometimes becomes apparent. There's a church in Lübeck that could be right out of 40K, skulls, bones and skeletons everywhere.
I get the impression you're overthinking it, though.
You won't find White Scars in mongolia or Necrons in egypt, but it's pretty obvious that these factions are derived from (western) perceptions of a certain era of these cultures.

Karol wrote:

And as a model itself goes, it looks more like an a old faither wearing a Koukoulion, and for some reason having a non religious symbol on his mitra. But maybe an eagle and a snake is a religious symbol in the empire. And the only bishop I can think of who ever used a mace was Odon, but he was a rather unbishoply bishop, something even the popes pointed out.

{shrugs} 40k details aside, the models dress still puts me in mind of pics of various Popes I've seen throughout my life. And I'm sure that was GWs intent.
As for him wielding a mace? Maybe the artists/sculptors were inspired by Odon from real life....

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
I don't go to parties. Don't have time for them attending sport school.

Wait you go to sport school? Is there any way you can make comparisons between your experiences there and playing 40k?

Seriously, if this hasn't made it clear that Karol is an elaborate troll account I don't know what will.

Hecaton wrote:

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
I don't go to parties. Don't have time for them attending sport school.

Wait you go to sport school? Is there any way you can make comparisons between your experiences there and playing 40k?

Seriously, if this hasn't made it clear that Karol is an elaborate troll account I don't know what will.

Sports Schools are a real thing. Just found out there are 5 in my immediate area. I had no clue lol.
It would explain his unrelenting ability to never admit he's wrong, which is more his problem than ours.

I thought it was because he was biased, but it's actually because he bunks with arrogant dips.

are specific schools uncommon in the US?

Sports Schools or Music Schools are standard here, and those mean regular school + extended sports or music lessons which means less free time

Pretty sure sports schools don't exist in the UK. Music schools do, but there's maybe 2 or 3 in the country and they're super prestigious - where musical prodigies go.

It's pretty clear that the Imperium is based on an exaggerated impression of the medieval catholic church. It has bishops and Cardinals, the Inquisition, nuns, saints and relics, Templars, massive cathedrals with lots of flying buttresses and pointy spires, burning heretics, martyrdom, flagellants etc.

pgmason wrote:
Pretty sure sports schools don't exist in the UK. Music schools do, but there's maybe 2 or 3 in the country and they're super prestigious - where musical prodigies go.

interesting, of course there are the prestigious ones here as well (like the Vienna Boys' Choir or Ski high school in Stams) but we have at least one of each in every district

pgmason wrote:

It's pretty clear that the Imperium is based on an exaggerated impression of the medieval catholic church. It has bishops and Cardinals, the Inquisition, nuns, saints and relics, Templars, massive cathedrals with lots of flying buttresses and pointy spires, burning heretics, martyrdom, flagellants etc.

as I said, what pop culture thinks the medieval church was, as all this things you name are from christian churches in general over the span of 1000 years (and not a specific one at a specific time)

it is the same as with the rest of the 40k background, a little bit of everything from everywhere with a new mix, just enough from the real world so that people catch on, but rest are stereotypes and fantasy

the medieval catholic church is there in the Imperium the same was as modern day Japan is in Tau and Vikings will be in Votaan

 kodos wrote:

as I said, what pop culture thinks the medieval church was, as all this things you name are from christian churches in general over the span of 1000 years (and not a specific one at a specific time)

Sure, it could apply to many different churches, but the aesthetic of the Imperium originated in England, and therefore is a parody of the English perception of the late medieval Catholic church with its gothic architecture and hypocritical grandeur. There isn't a common perception of, say, Orthodox Christianity in the UK, there are not many practitioners.

As pointed out, it is just Catholic window dressing, not any actual substance or a detailed copy.

for example, what I mean is, flagellants were not part of the catholic church, the popularity/focus of martyrdom came later and was more a focus of the protestant churches
also burning heretics was very rare until the reformation and it is more a post-reformation thing so post medieval (and the burning witches thing started with modern history and protestant churches, were medieval catholic church did not believe that the devil has any power so no pacts with the devil or daemons were possible and magic was rather seen as something good)

 kodos wrote:
are specific schools uncommon in the US?

Sports Schools or Music Schools are standard here, and those mean regular school + extended sports or music lessons which means less free time

They're very uncommon in the US. That's not what makes Karol a troll, though; I'm aware of what sports schools are, my brother attended one in Italy.

Dai wrote:
There is an inkling of anti catholic sentiment in the uk but i wouldnt say anymore so than any other protestant country and it is not something you would likely come across on any given day unless you were going around asking people.

I dunno. Respectfully that stance is a bit... naive.

To be fair, here in scotland/ni, you don't need to go much further than an old firm football match (celtic and rangers; one of the most hostile rivalries in sport) or get within stone throwing range of an Orange Order march/parade to get some truly disgusting anti catholic/sometimes anti-Irish sectarianism and chanting. It can be quite open and extremely blatant.

Genuinely, there's a reason I don't go into blue bars in Glasgow when a game is one. Not worth risking a Glasgow smile. :p

And Northern Ireland has a lot of people that will strongly express a bitter and extremely militant anti-catholic sentiment.30 years of the troubles and four hundred years of divisiveness prior to then doesn't go away any time soon.

 kodos wrote:
are specific schools uncommon in the US?

Sports Schools or Music Schools are standard here, and those mean regular school + extended sports or music lessons which means less free time

Some music (and dance) or theatre schools, but even then most of those are at the college level. Sports is definitely more a college thing, given the money universities plow into it (and the control the collegiate sports organizations have). Younger kids will attract scouts to their high school if they stand out enough, that's about the usual limit.

The educational system here is structured differently than it is in mainland Europe. There isn't really a split for college track and vocational training, most kids are pushed through the same K-12 public education. (exceptions: rich folks and the 'dreaded' military schools for delinquents, though don't take movies and tv shows seriously on that). There are private schools, but its more about wealth & perceived status and avoiding the terrors of public education than specialization.

Something like a sports school would be treated with little but contempt here. While lots of parents dream of their kid being the next famous football or basketball player, most are realistic enough (at least in their own heads) to realize the odds are astronomical and there isn't much point is paying for a failed attempt at a career in sports (if the kid is good enough, colleges will offer scholarships). Parents with Olympic dreams for their kids will terrorize them into it on their own time.

 Just_Breathe wrote:

Karol wrote:
I am ortodox.

Then recuse yourself from this discussion.
It's pretty clear you're on the defensive.

Yeah you don't get to decide that at all.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Just_Breathe wrote:

Karol wrote:
I am ortodox.

Then recuse yourself from this discussion.
It's pretty clear you're on the defensive.

Yeah you don't get to decide that at all.

Karol's just objectively wrong though. Or at least, the viewpoint he's putting forth is objectively wrong.