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Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit





The wilds of Pennsyltucky

I was wondering about the price of a standard, no add-ons, vyper. Per the datasheet the vyper comes armed with twin skurikens catapult AND a shuriken cannon. It can be upgraded 4 other weapons as a replacement for the shuriken cannon. The base cost is ...let's say X. The additional cost of the weapons are added to X.

Cool. No problem.

My question is why id there an entry for a shuriken cannon in the costs lists? The model already has a base cost, X. which would include all standard weapons (the twin shuriken catapult and the shuriken cannon). Why then the entry for the shuriken cannon? Can we replace the twin shuriken catapults (not mentioned in the unit's entry)? Is the shuriken cannon an upgrade (not mentioned in the unit's entry)? Is it a misprint?

The only effect is the difference in cost between the base model and the potential extra points listed on the points cost page.

thanks for any help.

ender502

"Burning the aquila into the retinas of heretics is the new black." - Savnock

"The ignore button is for pansees who can't deal with their own problems. " - H.B.M.C. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 ender502 wrote:
The model already has a base cost, X. which would include all standard weapons (the twin shuriken catapult and the shuriken cannon).

The standard weapons haven't been included in the base cost since 2017 when 8th edition launched.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/02 17:07:48


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defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

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The wilds of Pennsyltucky

 Ghaz wrote:
 ender502 wrote:
The model already has a base cost, X. which would include all standard weapons (the twin shuriken catapult and the shuriken cannon).

The standard weapons haven't been included in the base cost since 2017 when 8th edition launched.


I don't think that's the case.



"Burning the aquila into the retinas of heretics is the new black." - Savnock

"The ignore button is for pansees who can't deal with their own problems. " - H.B.M.C. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From page 241 of the Core Rules:

A unit’s points value is calculated by adding together the points value of every individual model in that unit and the points value of every individual weapon equipped by a model in that unit. Certain items of wargear also have a points value, and must be included in a unit's points value if equipped by a model in that unit.

So again, you pay the points for every individual weapon a model is equipped with as none of them are free unless they have a points value of 0.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
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The wilds of Pennsyltucky

That doesn't track for many weapons...like for a vyper, the twin shuriken catapult. It has no points cost listed. It could, technically speaking, be ANY points value.

Same thing with a prism cannon for a fire prism.

The more likely scenario IMO is the book is wrong. The scatter laser is an option in the unit entry but not an option on the price list. So, it's either a mistake or, like the twin shuriken catapult with no points cost, the scatter laser also has a cost of 0.

"Burning the aquila into the retinas of heretics is the new black." - Savnock

"The ignore button is for pansees who can't deal with their own problems. " - H.B.M.C. 
   
Made in nl
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant




netherlands

Its simple, the vyper cost you xx points. The twin shuriken catapult cost you A points, the shurican cannon cost you B points.
so the vyper cost you XX + A + B points. its all in your codex.

and if its not in the list but you datasheet tels you that you can have it, its free.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/02 19:45:25


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The wilds of Pennsyltucky

Dear Lord GW is bad at this.

A) I agree with your point.

B) does it say, anywhere, that if the entry says a model is equipped with an item but that item either has no point cost listed or isn't listed on the points entry page, then it is free?

"Burning the aquila into the retinas of heretics is the new black." - Savnock

"The ignore button is for pansees who can't deal with their own problems. " - H.B.M.C. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Did you look at the top of the Points Values section? This is from the top of the Points Values section in Codex Necrons as an example (bolded for emphasis):

You can use this section to determine the points (pts) value of each unit in your army. Each entry lists the unit's size (i.e. how many models the unit can contain) and how many points the unit costs. If an entry has a unit cost of 'x pts/model; then the unit costs x points for every model in that unit. You must then add points for each weapon, or item of wargear, that is included in that unit if it is listed in that unit's entry (weapons and wargear not listed in a unit's entry cost no additional points to include in that unit).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/02 20:50:12


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit





The wilds of Pennsyltucky

Eldar has that same language... It just strikes me as dumb because "entry" in that language is referencing the points page and not the unit's data sheet. This is part and parcel of this moronic shift to power levels. Just put the points cost in the datasheet. With the vyper it's even dumber because the datasheet and "entry" have different options. It's just kind of sloppy. Add the scatter laser to the "entry" at 0 points or make the vyper come with the scatter laser as standard.The vyper is the only vehicle in the book that has an "upgrade" as standard. Just sloppy.

Thanks for the help

"Burning the aquila into the retinas of heretics is the new black." - Savnock

"The ignore button is for pansees who can't deal with their own problems. " - H.B.M.C. 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 ender502 wrote:
My question is why id there an entry for a shuriken cannon in the costs lists? The model already has a base cost, X. which would include all standard weapons (the twin shuriken catapult and the shuriken cannon). Why then the entry for the shuriken cannon? Can we replace the twin shuriken catapults (not mentioned in the unit's entry)? Is the shuriken cannon an upgrade (not mentioned in the unit's entry)? Is it a misprint?
There is a point cost for the Shuriken Cannon because the base cost of the unit only includes non-optional mandatory weapons (Twin Shuriken Catapult) and the cheapest mandatory weapons.

Despite the Shuriken Cannon being the standard weapon, the cheapest weapon option is actually the Scatter Laser. Thus, the Shuriken Cannon has a cost, the additional value above taking a Scatter Laser.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/02 22:25:56


 
   
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Chicago, IL

 ender502 wrote:
The more likely scenario IMO is the book is wrong.
Yea, it is the book that is wrong...


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Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 ender502 wrote:
Just put the points cost in the datasheet.

The points are separate so they only have to replace the Points Values section of the codex when they update the points in the Munitorum Field Manual.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Ghaz wrote:
 ender502 wrote:
Just put the points cost in the datasheet.

The points are separate so they only have to replace the Points Values section of the codex when they update the points in the Munitorum Field Manual.


Same reason the weapons are priced separately. They can now adjust the price of an option without affecting the base price of a model and vice versa.

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Made in fi
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Reason is you can replace shuriken cannon with scatter laser which is cheaper weapon.

GW doesn't do - points. The base cost is CHEAPEST configuration. So the points is with assumption it's equipped with scatter laser.

If you have shuriken cannon it's not cheapest configuration.

Alternatives would be:

a) unit loadout description is the cheapest configuration. Why GW doesn't do this...
b) shuriken cannon is 0 pts, starcannon is 5 pts, scatter laser is -5 pts etc.

But anyway base cost(40 here) is CHEAPEST configuration. It's not always same as the default equipment loadout in datasheet(for some reason)

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Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Why isn’t the cheapest option the default? Most likely beacause the assembly instructions and base datasheet were completed before the designers realized the Scatter Laser was the worst weapon option. So they just made it the 0 point weapon rather than rewriting every datasheet and assembly instructions to match that fact.
   
 
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