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In the Eldar and Dark Eldar armies, some units are quite similar in terms of the role they fill, so I'm wondering what equivalents you can pinpoint. Here is my list:



Eldar Guardians and Kabalite Warriors are pretty obviously the most basic unit of all.



Not sure, but maybe Dire Avengers and Trueborn (at least they have better gear).


Wyches and Howling Banshees


Incubi and Scorpions


And this is where I would like to stop. The difference between Wyches and Incubi is the same as between Banshees and Scorpions, some are faster and more agile, others are more durable and strong.
However, it seems that ordinary witches are weaker than incubi and the aspect of warriors. In Dark Son, Wych fights against Scorpion, she outmatches him in speed and he can't hit her, however her weapons are completely ineffective against his armor. He eventually wins by outwitting her with his gun. In the Biel-Tan fracture, the Incubi fight Hekatrix and the situation is repeated, the Incubi cannot hit the Hekatrix due to their speed, and the Hekatrix cannot damage the Incubi due to their strong armor (however, the Incubi win, use bloodstones).

My guess is that the Hekatrix are more suitable matchups for the Banshees, while the regular Witches are at a lower level of power. Wyches and incubi also have a more complex system than Aspect Warriors. An Aspect can only become an Exarch, and the Wyches and Incubi system looks like this:

Wych-Hekatrix-Syren-Dracite-Succubus
Incubus-Klaivex-Hierarch

So I'm not sure which one is the Exarch equivalent. But let's continue


Scourges and Swooping Hawks

Farseers and Haemunculi(?). Not quite the right comparison, given that the Haemunculi are not psykers, but they have insane technologies and in this they are more like Necron crypteks, but nonetheless.


Wraith constructions and various monsters (for example, machines of pain or grotesques) created by haemonculi(?)



Thoughts?

What's your goal? There are some similarities/parallels, but GW seems to have intentionally avoided making drukhari "craftworlders, but spiky." So between the intentional lack of a perfect 1-to-1 equivalent, the rule changes over time, and the fluff retcons, we could probably make connections in different ways depending on what you want to do with those connections later.

If it's just for funsies, I think you might be trying a little too hard to nail down parallels that aren't quite there. A farseer and a grotesque don't really have anything in common beyond, "take up an HQ slot," and, "are better supports than beatsticks." We can still have fun, certainly, but pinning down which step on the wych career path is the closest match for an aspect warrior might be fruitless.

In the Eldar and Dark Eldar armies, some units are quite similar in terms of the role they fill, so I'm wondering what equivalents you can pinpoint.

Let's see...

* Narratively, incubi are definitely the counterpart to scorpions. What with the Arhra/Drazhar/Karandras stuff. Mechanically, incubi have traditionally been sort of a fusion of scorpion (gun hats, armor) and banshees (fleet, power weapons). I'd say their current rules make incubi closer to banshees than scorpions, but narratively I'd give it to scorpions.

* Pretty hesitant to compare wyches to banshees. Aside from both being especially agile (women more often than not), they don't really have much in common. Banshees are shock troops that you send in to carve through heavy infantry. Wyches are usually more of a tarpit/play with their food unit. I guess you could draw parallels between the banshees' screams (used to weaken the enemy) and wyches' tarpitty-ness, but that feels like a bit of a stretch. I'd be tempted to compare wyches to dire avengers (especially the various shimmer shield + defend builds), but that feels like quite a stretch as well. They've both been tarpits. They've both been moved from elites to troops (and back to elites for avengers). But honestly, wyches don't really have a clean counterpart.

I guess, if you count the old days where harlies were a craftworlds-only unit, wyches bore some similarity there? Invul saves. Fast movement. Anti-tank pistols. But still. Stretching.

* Hawks and scourges are both the "bird guys." Plus, they both have high RoF anti-infantry weapons as their base guns, and they both used to be pretty good at stunlocking tanks with haywire weaponry. That said, scourges have always felt more directly comparable to something like a devastator squad than the hawks. Scourges are pretty clearly the result of someone going, "Take our 4 heavy weapon devastator rules, but strip off all the defense, and add mobility."

* Falcon = Ravager I guess. Both were your source of 3 S8 shots for a long time. Both are HS. The falcon being a transport throws this off a bit.

* Talos has always been vaguely the counterpart to the wraithlord, but they've diverged quite a bit at this point.

* Grotesques = wraith guard/blades. Sorta. I guess. In that they're both the durable, multi-wound units that don't fit into transports very well. Playing foot coven always felt vaguely analogous to playing an Iyanden wraith host.

* Reavers = spears. Both are melee bikers.

* Warlocks were sort of vaguely counterparts to haemonculi back in the day. Less so now, but the 3rd and 5th edition dark eldar books had them priced similarly, capable of fitting multiple bodies into a single force org slot, etc. Both were cheap support HQs. You can also draw comparisons between spiritseers (which were sometimes just warlocks with a 5 point upgrade) and haemonculi both being used to babysit the wraiths/grotesques.

* Warlock conclaves currently feel sort of like the counterpart to archon courts? Bag of special tricks. Clearly meant to hang out with a specific type of HQ. Etc.

* Mandrakes have been vaguely scorpion-y. Both infiltrate/outflank. Both have traditionally had stealth buffs. Both have generally had S4 stabbing attacks. Yes, scorpions are comparable to both incubi and mandrakes. This is a pretty good demonstration of how the two factions have similarities but not perfect counterparts.

I think the premise here could do with flipping on its head.

Remember. Dark Eldar are, arguably, true Eldar. They represent the very same culture that lead to the birth of Slaanesh. Indeed, at least some Haemonculi are pre-fall Eldar.

So if we look to Scourges, rather than being a dark reflection of the Swooping Hawk’s martial obsession? Swooping Hawks should, arguably, be seen as a purified, restrained take on the desire that drives an Eldar to become a Scourge in the first place.

Typing that, I think this is an underrated line of thinking. Dark Eldar aren’t the corruption. Craftworld Eldar are the purified/restrained version of their species.

That is kind of a fun spin on it, Mad Doc. Following up on that angle...

* They've kind of been pushing hawks and Baharroth especially as being "bright" and glowy in recent editions, what with the Herald of Victory rule, the Shining Blade (had the Blind rule not so long ago), etc. Plus, there's that line about Baharroth enjoying "the feeling of the sun on his wings." So rather than focusing on the initial drive to become a scourge, I see hawks as echoes of the pre-fall solar cults, whatever those were. Until it's established otherwise, my headcanon is that the original Baharroth was a solar cultist with wings when Asurmen found him, thus lueading to the early and drastic permutation of Asurmen's teachings that involved wings. And then that emphasis on all things solar got passed down in the form of the sun rifle, the herald of victory rule, etc. Heck, even haywire grenades might have ties to sunspots impacting tech, though that's an especially far reach.

* Incubi are the students of Arhra's teachings making them very much the predecessors or cousins to the modern striking scorpions. Between their klaivex power names, traditionally higher WS, and general lean into more brutal and less subtle forms of warfare, I get a very, "Let the hate flow through you," vibe from them. Compare this to modern striking scorpions who are defined by Kurnous tempering them with "the patience of Kurnous" (the hunter), and I basically read scorpions as a course correction on the bloody teachings of Arhra. Basically, incubi embrace their bloodlust to the fullest in pursuit of more power, but this is contrary to "balance" espoused by Ahriman and also presumably lead to Arhra becoming tainted by chaos. So modern striking scorpions use the incubi teachings as a baseline, but then reign in the bloodlust with extreme patience and discipline, focusing on only letting the violence out in a channeled, purposeful manner.

* While I'm reluctant to draw too many parallels between banshees and wyches, Jain Zar did spend some time as a gladiator before joining up with Asurmen. So there's probably a little shared culture between wych cults and banshee teachings in there somewhere.

* This one's a stretch, but I wonder if fire dragons might have a little Arhra influence in their teachings. Fuegan's described as being the extra angry phoenix lord whose axe is constantly sizzling from how angry he is. Which sounds to me like an impressionable young Fuegan may have spent a bit of time being buddies with Arhra. And then consider that 3rd edition incubi were actually able to take shredders and blasters in their units (which I view as a nod to Arhra being willing to part with ritualistic weaponry for the sake of lethality). Blasters aren't that different from fusion guns. I wonder if Fuegan's axe and firepike were the result of him sort of mirroring some of the gear Arhra was experimenting with and then ultimately leaning towards guns over blades.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think the premise here could do with flipping on its head.

Remember. Dark Eldar are, arguably, true Eldar. They represent the very same culture that lead to the birth of Slaanesh. Indeed, at least some Haemonculi are pre-fall Eldar.

So if we look to Scourges, rather than being a dark reflection of the Swooping Hawk’s martial obsession? Swooping Hawks should, arguably, be seen as a purified, restrained take on the desire that drives an Eldar to become a Scourge in the first place.

Typing that, I think this is an underrated line of thinking. Dark Eldar aren’t the corruption. Craftworld Eldar are the purified/restrained version of their species.

I don't know if I'd agree with this. Both are corrupted, just in different ways. One half choose asceticism, the other debauchery, but both moved on from the base species. I'd even argue DE moved away more, as the lack of psykers ruined their entire society and tech base. Imagine humans who suddenly can't use radio or electricity - they had to reinvent everything while Craftworlders at least got to keep foundations.

As for Haemonculi being pre-fall Eldar, so what? So is Eldrad and most of the Aspect Warrior founders. Both groups show drastic deviations from even other DE/E, and certainly have nothing in common despite having same origins, so arguably they show little of the original species. In fact, for full picture, you'd probably need to consider Chaos Eldar - there are three sides to deviation/warping, not just two, and all three are extreme in their own way. If you want someone who resembles the pre-fall Eldar the most, it will probably be the Exodites as they are just pretending to work 24/7 in Jurassic Park instead of turning the way how their society (and bodies, and powers, and brains, etc, etc) work upside down like the other three...

Not sure I agree with you.

Now it has been a while since I read the Dark Eldar background. But I’ve got it into my head they were Eldar who hid away in Commoragh specifically so they could continue the very activity that lead to the fall?

The No Psykers things was a later edict by Vect to protect Commoragh?

Happy to be shown wrong though!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not sure I agree with you.

Now it has been a while since I read the Dark Eldar background. But I’ve got it into my head they were Eldar who hid away in Commoragh specifically so they could continue the very activity that lead to the fall?

The No Psykers things was a later edict by Vect to protect Commoragh?

Happy to be shown wrong though!

From what I remember the original eldar who hid in the webway did so because the stuff they were into was too much even by the standards of the pre-fall eldars.

Irbis is correct in that both sides could be considered corruptions of the original eldar. I remember one writer used a metaphor of a bucket filled with water with a crack in it. The bucket is the eldar and the water is the soul. The soul is constantly leaking out and going to Slannesh and each sub group has their own way of dealing with it. Exodite and craftworlders have plugged up the hole through discipline and control, the dark eldar have a way of refilling to bucket by absorbing pain. But as the water keeps on leaking out the crack keep getting bigger and bigger requiring more and more to refill it.

The Dark Eldar are closer to the original empire but over the last 10000+ years have gotten even worst.

Also yes the original lack of Psykers was an edict by Vect to prevent them from doing damage to the webway but over time their psychic abilities have been lost to the point their tech isn't based on it.

Pretty sure the atrophy of their psychic abilities predates Vect's edict. Living in the webway only partially shields the drukhari from Slaanesh (thus why their souls drain away in the WW but drain away faster in the materium). I always thought that using psychic abilities made your soul brighter in the warp and thus probably caused Slaanesh to drain your soul more quickly (or straight up attack you Perils of the Warp style). It's like, if your house was full of weird lights that burned your eyes every time you opened them, you'd start keeping your eyes closed or maybe squinting as necessary. Live like that long enough, and eventually you'll go blind.

tldr; I think that the existence of Slaanesh basically makes drukhari avoid flexing their psychic muscles. Vect's decree seems more like a way of avoiding disjunctions and the chaos corruption that befell Shaadom.